The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro JIM LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news today, pro Marcos army troops staged a coup attempt in the Philippines. President Reagan met with the leaders of the Nicaraguan contras, and Sen. Sam Nunn took himself out of the 1988 presidential race. We'll have the details in our news summary in a moment. Charlayne Hunter Gault is in New York tonight. Charlayne? CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: After the news summary, we continue our air safety series with a Tom Bearden report on problems of maintenance. Then we pursue today's Reagan contra meeting with contra leader Alfonso Robelo, and we go behind the lines for a firsthand look at the contra army with correspondent Charles Krause. We conclude with a news maker interview with the head of NASA, James Fletcher.News Summary LEHRER: Some 300 Philippine army troops attempted to overthrow the government of Corazon Aquino today. The attempt apparently failed. Mrs. Aquino went on radio to say she was safe and the situation would be resolved within a few hours. The soldiers were believed to be supporters of deposed president Ferdinand Marcos. The Associated Press said the mutinous troops attacked the presidential palace and a government radio station in the darkness of the predawn Friday, Manila time. The fighting was said to have gone on for two and a half hours. There was no authoritative information on casualties among the attackers or the army troops who repelled them. But eye witness reports said there were at least six dead bodies on the streets, and a photographer was reportedly killed. Charlayne? HUNTER-GAULT: President Reagan today publicly embraced contra leaders and pledged continued support for their cause. In exchange, the contra heads came up with a plan to put contra aid in an escrow account. The American money would remain on hold, pending the outcome of Central American peace initiative. The contra leaders said they wanted to give the peace plan a chance, despite doubts about the intentions of the Sandinista government. The meeting in Los Angeles with the civilian directorate of the Nicaraguan opposition took place at a round table with President Reagan reading a brief statement.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: (unintelligible) military pressure to provide (unintelligible) showing results. The Sandinistas have now signed a peace agreement based on democracy in Nicaragua. We'll be watching carefully to see if they really comply. Without the freedom fighters they will have no incentives to implement the measures they said that they will implement. We have not yet decided on the format of our next funding request, but we intend to see that you have adequate funding until a cease fire is in place and a verifiable process of democratization is under way. HUNTER-GAULT: Meanwhile on the Iran contra front, the Associated Press quotes Pentagon sources as saying Rear Admiral John Poindexter has submitted a request to retire from the Navy this fall. Poindexter has reportedly asked to be retired at the higher rank of Vice Admiral that he held while working at the White House. The request would have to be approved by the President and the Senate. LEHRER: There were problems with the test firing of a shuttle booster rocket today. The Morton Thiokol Company scheduled the test outside Salt Lake City, Utah, this afternoon. A cooling system failure caused it to be aborted just seconds before go time.

ROGER WILLIAM test flight coordinator:, Minus 20, minus 15, abort the motor. VOICE: Motor is aborted. LEHRER: The test was rescheduled for this evening, and again it was aborted. It is now scheduled for Saturday. The 1. 1 million pound rocket is a redesigned version of the one on the Challenger, which exploded after takeoff in January 1986. A presidential commission later determined a faulty joint on the rocket led to the tragedy and to the death of the seven crew members on board. HUNTER-GAULT: The head of the Federal Aviation Administration today called on pilots to take a hard look at ways to avoid mistakes that can turn into tragedies. Speaking before a meeting of chief pilots in Kansas City, FAA Administrator Allan McArtor told more than 250 pilots that they and others in the industry must tighten procedures. Later, he spoke with reporters.

ALLAN McARTOR, FAA administrator: I think when we talk to primary responsibility of human performance, let's not single out the crew as the only humansin the system. We've got air traffic controllers, and every message I said today to the pilots goes in spades to the air traffic control. We've got technicians, and we've got mechanics in the system. Any time we have a person in the loop, we have to make sure he's a trained, vigilant professional and qualified to work day to day, and he does his job perfectly day in and day out. We don't want to take their professionalism for granted. HUNTER-GAULT: The meeting was called by the government in the wake of a series of embarrassing errors, and growing indications that pilot failure may have caused the country's second worst air accident, the Northwest crash on August 16 that killed 156 people. LEHRER: Senator Sam Nunn became a non candidate for president today. The Georgia Democrat said he had decided not to make the race for his party's 1988 presidential nomination. He said the decision was based on personal considerations and the demands of his position as Chairman of the Senate Arms Services Committee.

Sen. SAM NUNN, (D) Georgia: I think at this juncture, the defense bill, the debate on the anti ballistic missile treaty, things that I'm vitally involved in, have to assume my top priority. I believe that to run for President of the United States and also try to handle that would end up probably with the result that I would do neither very well. The second reason that I'll probably talk to at least all the Georgia news media about, I feel it's not a very propitious time in my own family, in terms of having a son in high school and a daughter in college. LEHRER: There are two other no run political stories. Former Senator Paul Laxalt said he had decided not to seek the 1988 Republican presidential nomination. He said there were not enough campaign funds available for him to make that race. And Sen. William Proxmire of Wisconsin announced he would not be a candidate for reelection next year. The 71 year old Democrat has served in the U. S. Senate since 1957. HUNTER-GAULT: The government said today the number of U. S. cities with too much ozone pollution dropped to 62 during the past two years. But holdouts like Los Angeles was said to have no chance of meeting federal standards by the end of the year. The EPA also said 65 cities violated the limits on carbon monoxide during the same period. Cities could face the loss of federal grants if they don't meet the standards by December 31. LEHRER: The battle over the Alabama textbooks was declared a long way from being over today. A Federal Appeals Court yesterday overturned a lower court decision, which banned 44 books in the Alabama Public Schools. Attorneys for the losing parents said today they would now take the issue to the U. S. Supreme Court. The parents claim the books promote a godless religion. Those on the other side heralded yesterday's decision as a victory against censorship and for school children everywhere. HUNTER-GAULT: The bitter wage dispute in South Africa escalated dramatically today. The country's white mine owners fired some 20,000 black strikers after their union rejected a management offer that failed to include a wage hike. This was the union's reaction.

CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, General Secretary, National Union of Mineworkers: The arrogance of the chamber was demonstrated by its refusal to make an offer on wages, in spite of the fact that we modified our wage demand. The chamber's attitude confirms our union's belief that it is bent on destroying the NUM, and this it will do with the assistance of the state. HUNTER-GAULT:The union claims 340,000 workers are on strike at 44 gold and coal mines. Mine management says the numbers are much lower. That's our news summary. Still to come, airline maintenance problems, a contra leader and the contra army, and the head of NASA. Unfit to Fly? LEHRER: First tonight, we continue our week long series of reports on aviation. Most of the recent attention has been focused on the crash of Northwest Airlines flight 255 in Detroit earlier this month. Also, those continuing reports of less serious accidents and near midair collisions. But there may be a deeper and potentially more serious problem -- whether or not the planes themselves are safe to fly. Correspondent Tom Bearden has more.

TOM BEARDEN: September 6, 1986. This is all that's left of Midwest Express Airlines flight 105. Thirty one people died. It crashed because the left engine exploded. This is what caused it -- an internal engine part similar to this one called a sleeve spacer. It developed hairline cracks and broke apart. August 22, 1985. Fifty five people died when an engine on a British Air Tours Boeing 737 blew up. This is the culprit. It's called a combustor can, where the fuel is burned. A crack formed, allowing a flame to escape, setting the wing on fire. May 5, 1983. An Eastern Airlines L10 11 jumbo jet returns to Miami after all three of its engines flamed out over the Atlantic. Mechanics had failed to install simple rubber O rings like these that allow the oil to leak out. It had happened at least 12 times before, and caused seven unscheduled landings. An airliner has tens of thousands of parts, and almost all of them are important. If they aren't properly inspected and maintained, people can die. Simple abrasion can rub a hole in a fuel line and cause a catastrophic fire. Or corrosion on an axle can make the landing gear stick. Some of the people whose job it is to fix those problems say their bosses are pressuring them to ignore serious mechanical difficulties, because good maintenance had become too expensive in a deregulated environment. Mr. KING: It's unbelievable the amount of effort that the management will make to move the aircraft to the gates. They don't care if you don't have the parts, they don't care if you can't fix it. Those things are covered up, pencilled over or just disregarded.

BEARDEN: And the people who fly the planes say they are under pressure, too. Capt. WABEL: In this environment today, pressure is on to take that airplane all of the time, no matter what. And when you lower your experience level and put new people that know how to fly airplanes, yet don't have the experience of what these things lead to, you obviously lower your safety level along with it.

BEARDEN: The business of keeping an airline flying is a huge enterprise in itself. Maintenance bases like United's in San Francisco are decidedly not just glorified body and fender shops. The people who work here are licensed by the government, or work under the supervision of licensed mechanics. These are what control everything that goes on here -- the Federal Air Regulations. They're administered by the Federal Aviation Administration, which oversees all maintenance of aircraft in the United States. The agency works with manufacturers and airlines to develop repair procedures to an almost infinitesimal degree of detail -- from the proper way to measure a turbine fanblade to the right way to patch a plane's aluminum skin. The FAA requires all work here to be documented, and will periodically inspect both the paperwork and repair job themselves for compliance. It sounds impressive, but some say it was never enough -- that it worked in the past only because the airlines went far beyond the minimum requirements. Some think the process has failed under the pressure of explosive growth of the industry in the wake of deregulation. Many airline employees are afraid to speak out publicly, fearing for their jobs. This man started out as an anonymous whistle blower, then went dramatically public. His name is John King, and he worked as a mechanic for Eastern Airlines in Boston. Last month he was fired by Eastern after holding a press conference to air his charges. Employees of many airlines have privately expressed similar concerns, but Eastern mechanics have been particularly outspoken, and Eastern's management has been particularly willing to respond. Eastern says it fired King for making false charges and for taking them to the press instead of his supervisor. JOHN KING, former Eastern mechanic: I couldn't go to the supervisor, because they were doing these acts. BEARDEN: The people who were supposed to make sure you did your job properly were trying to make sure you didn't do it properly? Mr. KING: They themselves were involved in releasing the aircraft to an unsafe flight. BEARDEN: Is that against the law? Mr. KING: It sure is.

BEARDEN: King had the tape recording of an exchange with a supervisor he said threatened to fire him for properly recording a fuel tank leak in the aircraft log book. Mr. KING: From that point forward, if I wanted to be a member of Eastern Airlines, if I wanted to keep my job, be a survivor, quote, then I would not put anything in a log book that could possibly stop the aircraft, or make anything known that the crew may see, and they would come up and say, ''We don't want the airplane, either. '' BEARDEN: He threatened to fire you. Mr. KING: Exactly right.

BEARDEN: Steve Kolsky is an Eastern Airlines staff Vice President. STEPHEN KOLSKY, Eastern Airlines Vice President: By the time that conversation took place, Mr. King had already entered the discrepancy in the log book. Mr. King personally repaired the discrepancy before that airplane departed. If that departure was contrary to (unintelligible) regulations or manuals, it was Mr. King found the work, Mr. King who recorded, and Mr. King who fixed it. BEARDEN: But you got an angry supervisor who says on tape, ''Don't do that, because that kills airplanes. Mr. KOLSKY: No, I think you have a supervisor saying this: That if you go out and write something in a log book, which is in error, and that winds up in grounding an airplane, I don't need you out here. It is just as illegal and wrong not to write something in the log book as it is to write something that is not true.

BEARDEN: King says he told the FAA about other additional incidents. He claims supervisors ordered an engine replaced, then didn't test it properly because they wanted to get it airborne. Mr. KOLSKY: With respect to the document that pertains to the power plant removal and installation, there are approximately -- not approximately -- there are four places which a foreman signs that the work has been completed. All tolled, that work doesn't total more than 30 minutes. We just disagree with his contention that this engine change happened, and it was short circuited in the testing so the airplane could fly again. As a matter of fact, an engine change for an 8300 in Boston typically takes between 24 and 36 hours. The airplane was on the ground in excess of 48 hours. The engine was completed and all documents completed approximately 3:00 o'clock in the morning. The airplane didn't fly until 3:00 o'clock that afternoon. This is in direct conflict with his statement that the stuff was signed off so it could return to service. BEARDEN: And King says he was told to ignore a leak in an engine pylon, the structure that connects the engine to the wing. Mr. KING: There is no fuel leakage permitted within the structure, because if there is, there's a variety of ignition sources, and they're hot air, electrical cables, and a fuel comes in contact with this, you'll have either a fire or explosion, which would result in separation of the engine from the aircraft. BEARDEN: We asked Kolsky about that. He said it was the first Eastern had heard of it. But the FAA said it had checked out an anonymous complaint, apparently from King, about such an incident, and found no leak. Kolsky maintains that complaints like King's are primarily a labor/management dispute, designed to pressure the airlines. Mr. KOLSKY: It's a way to get attention, it's a way to focus congressional interest in Eastern, it's a way to focus the media and press's attention at Eastern -- with claims that safety is at issue. We don't believe it is. We don't think they believe it is. BEARDEN: It's a ploy? Mr. KOLSKY: It's a ploy.

BEARDEN: But King is not alone in speaking out. Current and former Eastern employees told us of several incidents they believe violate federal aviation regulations. We have dubbed in different voices to disguise their identity. BEARDEN: Are they asking you to do things your license tells you you shouldn't do? MAN: We're almost required to. There are many situations that have developed in the last couple of years. There are shortages of parts, and that's required us to use parts that will do the job, but aren't necessarily the parts that are spec requirements. This goes on all the time.

BEARDEN: One charge concerns the weather tracking cockpit radar made by Bendix. The Bendix manual has detailed instructions for testing and checking these radars to see whether they work properly and accurately. But Tony Verzi, who works in Eastern's electronics department until he retired recently, says supervisors handwrote an order for a new test on broken radars. A test he says was inaccurate and misleading. He says they used the test to declare eight units serviceable without really repairing them. TONY VERZI, former Eastern employee: This person who signs this has no training in electronics. He doesn't have a FCC license, which the company requires to work in the electronics department. He does not have a training record which indicates that he has ever worked on a piece of electronic equipment.

BEARDEN: Verzi says those unrepaired radars could fail to alert a pilot there was a thunderstorm directly ahead. Mr. KOLSKY: Well, it's my understanding that there was some units taken out of the unserviceable bin and put in an airplane. I've been advised that that was to determine the nature of the unserviceability of the unit. There were no units returned to service as a result of these tests.

BEARDEN: But Verzi said that at least two of the units did fly. And provided us with aircraft and unit serial numbers. Eastern later told us it could not confirm whether or not the radars flew. But they still maintain the procedure was proper, and if they did fly, they did so legally. There are also allegations that even obvious damage to aircraft is being ignored, because repairing it would be too time consuming. Several sources say that was the cause of an accident on July 18, when an Eastern L10 11 landing gear collapsed shortly after touchdown in Panama City. Eastern Captain Don McClure is the chairman of the Pilots union accident investigation board. DON McCLURE, Eastern Airlines pilot: Apparently, from the information I've been able to glean through the investigation so far, there was a fatigue crack on this phalange over here that started -- and it had been there for a while and got worked, and pretty soon it worked its way down and it broke loose, letting this pin drop out, and of course the actuator. Apparently it had been there for some time.

BEARDEN: Eastern mechanics say the bushings, or bearings surrounding the pin that held the parts together, had corroded, and say that should have been caught during a major inspection just five months earlier. They contend it was purposely ignored and that similar problems are still being concealed. MAN: We had one in the other day. We changed one gear, and the other gear we left on. The bushings were all -- you could just about spin them. And if you touch anything on it, you've got to change everything. So you don't touch anything. BEARDEN: You ignore a potential problem? MAN: Oh, yes. It's ignored.

BEARDEN: Eastern says all its L10 11s were inspected after the Panama accident and were found to be properly maintained. Mr. KOLSKY: I think in some cases they're disgruntled employees. I think in some cases they're the product of years of protectionism, of high wages and lucrative fringe benefits that regulation gave to a very select group of employees in the United States of America -- namely, the airline employees. Deregulation changed that. MAN: It seems like every time there's a complaint about safety of the aircraft, they ignore the fact that there may be indeed a problem and immediately jump on the bandwagon of labor unrest. Somehowit's like a broad paint brush that's supposed to cover everything over. I'm not out to get them. No. I'm getting a retirement check from them every month. I don't want to see Eastern Airlines fold up. I do want them to do the right thing, though.

BEARDEN: Perhaps the most serious charge being made by King, Verzi and others, is their contention that Eastern is deliberately falsifying maintenance records, documents that FAA associate administrator Tony Broderick says are critical to federal oversight. TONY BRODERICK, FAA Associate Administrator: Paperwork is extraordinarily important -- records for airlines, just like the records for anything, documents its history, its life essentially. BEARDEN: If you don't have an accurate log book, is it possible to effectively oversee the maintenance of an aircraft? Mr. BRODERICK: If the records don't accurately reflect the condition and history of the aircraft, it is not possible to oversee them.

BEARDEN: The FAA fined Eastern $9. 5 million recently, because an inspection turned up thousands of problems with its paperwork. Although not with the actual aircraft. Eastern says those problems have been corrected, and Broderick agrees. BEARDEN: Is there any evidence that you're aware of that Eastern Airlines is falsifying documents on aircraft? Mr. BRODERICK: No, I'm not. None at all. BEARDEN: You've had three investigations of Eastern in the last six months. Mr. BRODERICK: Well, we're constantly investigating Eastern and every other major airline. They're constantly being inspected. They will not operate if they do not operate safely. We will not tolerate fraud or falsification of documentation. Period.

BEARDEN: Eastern mechanics aren't the only ones to say that a bottom line mentality is affecting safety. Dave Wabel is a former Frontier pilot who joined Continental Airlines after Frontier went bankrupt. He says he often runs into mechanics who don't know what they're doing -- including one who didn't even know what type of plane he was on. DAVE WABEL: He was supposed to be fixing the pressurization of the airplane. And he told the gentleman in the shop -- I don't recall whether he said they'd better send somebody else out, or books out, because he didn't know anything about the 727. And the gentleman inside asked him what aircraft -- the number he was on, and he told him, and he said, ''That's not a 727, it's a 737. '' And he said, ''Well, I don't know anything about that, either. And you'd still better send some books or somebody else down. '' To me, that indicates pretty well the level of experience.

BEARDEN: Wabel says such incidents happen because Continental is hiring people fresh out of school at very low wages. Capt. WABEL: Numerous times we pull an airplane up to a jet way and take a 15 minute delay to get the door open because the operator was brand new and didn't know how to get the jet way up to the airplane. And also on numerous occasions, they move the jet way in and damage the airplane. On one occasion they tore the door off the front of the airplane.

BEARDEN: Wabel has turned in his resignation, saying he will no longer fly under those conditions. Continental officials say they have no record of any such incidents. Continental Vice President for Maintenance Stan Thompson agrees that a large percentage of his work force is very young. But denies Wabel's assertion that the system is in chaos. STAN THOMPSON, Continental Airlines: I can only tell you I think our record speaks for itself. You know, we carry 130,000 people daily, and I think we do that in an excellent manner, very safe manner.

BEARDEN: And every airline we talked to points out that their maintenance budgets have grown considerably since deregulation, belying the contention that competitive pressures are forcing cutbacks. But many observers believe most airlines are now complying only with the minimum regulations, where in the past they significantly exceeded the requirements. Some pilots and mechanics are calling for tougher standards, and some, like Dave Wabel, are downright frightened. Mr. WABEL: When you have crews saying they won't put their families on airplanes, won't let them ride airplanes when they get free passes, you can call that a labor dispute if you want, but it's frightening to me in itself. I have free passes with Continental for the nine months I worked, and my wife and I refuse to ride on them. And if that doesn't tell the public something, then they're looking at the wrong things.

BEARDEN: But the FAA's Tony Broderick says today's requirements are more than adequate. Mr. BRODERICK: We are making sure in the FAA that the high standards that have been achieved by U. S. aviation continue to be achieved. We've got the highest safety standards in the world, and economic deregulation is not going to be allowed to reduce those standards in any way. If the ground rules change economically to change the way companies relate to the FAA standards, we'll change the standards to make sure safety is maintained. That's what we're all about -- that's what the FAA does. LEHRER: We wind up our series on aviation tomorrow night with a freewheeling studio discussion about how to make flying safer and more convenient. Behind the Lines HUNTER-GAULT: Now we go to the story of the Nicaraguan contras. We'll be talking with one of them in a minute. But first, a very special report on the military side of the contras. President Reagan has met many times with the contra's political leaders. But today for the first time, he has sat down with their military commander, Enrique Bermudez. Bermudez founded the contra army seven years ago, but has largely avoided politicians and the press. Last weekend, correspondent Charles Krause was given unusual access to him and his military operation. He met Bermudez in Honduras and traveled with him into Nicaragua. And then back to the border area. Here's his report.

CHARLES KRAUSE: An unmarked military helicopter is flying Enrique Bermudez along the Nicaraguan border. The contra's commander has agreed to give us an unusual first hand look at his guerilla army. By definition, it was a one sided look, but it was also a rare opportunity to go behind the lines of what until now has been a mostly invisible war. Our first stop, Yamales, a contra base in Honduras that's now being dismantled. In part, because most of the contra forces here have left to fight inside Nicaragua. It was last Sunday, August 23, just four days before Bermudez was to meet with President Reagan for the first time. (to Bermudez) Why do you think he invited you as well as the directorate to meet with him? ENRIQUE BERMUDEZ: Well, I understand that at this very confused moment of the fight after the Guatemala peace pact, or peace agreement, we need a very clear explanation that we are going to be -- not to be abandoned and we are going to be supported. BEARDEN: Are you satisfied with the support you've received from President Reagan thus far? Mr. BERMUDEZ: With President Reagan I am totally satisfied. Which I am not satisfied is the way we have been receiving aid from congress. We don't expect us to be disarmed before we go to a dialogue with the Sandinistas. The only reason the Sandinista are negotiating is because we do exist. We do -- are a real threat today. We do our damage in there. So President Reagan -- we need from President Reagan that moral support in public.

BEARDEN: From Yamales in Honduras, Bermudez took us directly to the Bocay River -- about 25 miles inside Nicaragua. Since January, the Bocay has become an important resupply route and staking area for the contras. It's also become a bloody battlefield, changing hands several times. Bermudez claims to have 12,000 men fighting the Sandinistas inside Nicaragua. Curiously, that's 5,000 fewer men than the State Department claims on his behalf. We were taken to the Bocay because Bermudez wanted to prove that he's regained control of the waterway and that today his rebel army holds territory inside Nicaragua. Mr. BERMUDEZ: This is Sandinista equipment. BEARDEN: So what happened? In May, they came in here, counterattacked -- Mr. BERMUDEZ: They came in here, we disappeared, they stayed here. So we started to harass them. They couldn't maintain the force of resupply -- was very costly for them. They had to abandon living in dozens of (unintelligible). BEARDEN: Why do you think there's a perception in the United States that your forces are not doing very well? Mr. BERMUDEZ: Well, the perception is because we have had a bad press corps. And that is oneof the disadvantages. We have no capacity to counter the enormous propaganda apparatus that the Sandinistas have. We have American aid, but we cannot use that aid to make propaganda.

BEARDEN: But the truth is much of the contra's bad press is of their own making. They reportedly attack civilian targets. They've failed to articulate a convincing political message. Bermudez himself, a former colonel in Samoza's national guard, has been accused of fighting not for democracy, but to restore the old dictatorship. And finally, the contras have yet to attack a major Sandinista garrison. Or to penetrate Nicaragua's cities. Yet as these abandoned tents and crates of Soviet ammunition make quite clear, the contras have gained momentum. They've begun to challenge the Sandinistas, at least in rural areas like the Bocay. Mr. BERMUDEZ: They couldn't have retained this position, because we (unintelligible) surrounded. The only way capable to be supplied by air. So they know we had (unintelligible). So they fear more helicopters being shot down. And they couldn't resupply freely the troop here, so they had to abandon. That's guerilla war. BEARDEN: But again, I have to ask. Your critics say that without an urban guerilla component, without a presence in a part of the country where 2/3 of the people live -- Mr. BERMUDEZ: Yes, we are going through that. We are creating the condition -- (unintelligible) for the urban areas to participate. They will participate while they deceive the Sandinista control in the (unintelligible). So we are weakening the base of support, the infrastructural military and economic structure. So once the people see them not too strong, they will start to participate more actively. BEARDEN: Do you think it would be a mistake right now for the United States to give up the military option to try to negotiate with the Sandinistas? Mr. BERMUDEZ: Would be a big mistake. Will be a naive decision. You cannot negotiate in a weakened position. From a weak position.

BEARDEN: Bermudez told his men that only now, after seven years' war, have they become strong enough to weaken the Sandinistas militarily. It's no time, he said, to be fooled by Managua's acceptance of the Arias peace plan, or to give up the fight. Last Sunday, he told the soldiers what he was planning to tell President Reagan. The Sandinistas will never negotiate communism for democracy. Bermudez and his army could not exist without aid from the United States. The Sandinistas accuse them of being CIA mercenaries. But here along the Bocay, the contras appeared to be young, uneducated peasants, fighting against enormous odds, a tough and well trained Sandinista army of 75,000 men. Mr. BERMUDEZ: We don't expect to have a military victory -- (unintelligible) against the Sandinista army. We don't need to defeat the whole Sandinista army. We just need to do something, and the Sandinista army will (unintelligible) down by itself. If that happens, that happens with Samoza, that happens -- BEARDEN: Do you really believe that? I mean, in Washington, one of the things that the United States says over and over and over again, is that this army that they have created is the largest, the most powerful, the strongest, the best trained in Central America. Do you really believe it's going to collapse? Mr. BERMUDEZ: Well, there are (unintelligible) the equipment, the weapons, and the training that make the difference. The difference makes the morale of the people. What we need is time. We need time and resources. BEARDEN: An hour downstream from the abandoned Sandinista camp, the Bocay flows into the Coco. One bank is Nicaragua. The other Honduras. It's here at a place called San Andreas that Bermudez is building his new command center. And it was here on Sunday that he accused the Sandinista army of indiscriminately using antipersonnel mines against his troops. Mr. BERMUDEZ: We have lost 18 people trying to neutralize the mines.

BEARDEN: He also admitted that his men at times have tortured and killed civilians without regard to their human rights. Mr. BERMUDEZ: I do accept that in this type of war, many die by revenge, because this is a civil war. There are people in the same valley, in the same town, that some are with the Sandinistas and some are not. So, many people have been hurt, put in jail, or have been killed by denunciation or by reprisal of the Sandinistas. So the people who know that, who take revenge against them. And that's happened in a civil war. But we don't violate the human rights in a systematic way like the Sandinistas do, to control the population.

BEARDEN: From San Andreas, Bermudez took us to his current headquarters, a base so secret we're prohibited from disclosing its name, or reporting which country it's in. It's here the contras coordinate intelligence, communications and logistics with the CIA. And it was here that Bermudez expressed deep skepticism about the Arias peace plan. (to Bermudez) What happens if congress delays aid to you during October and the first part of November, waiting to see whether or not the Arias peace plan takes effect? Mr. BERMUDEZ: It is very dangerous for us, because at this time the Sandinistas are making a big propaganda, trying to confuse people, trying to convince people that the war is over the gun. That the modern agreement would bring peace. It is not true. But it may confuse some people. What they want is get all the (unintelligible), or they want an opportunity to put those some proof, to see if our people will (unintelligible) waiting, one, two or three months for a cease fire, and stay waiting the moment of democratization -- they are trying to put us in a (unintelligible) that they think that we can be -- that our people can defect from the forces. I am sure that you saw those people, those guys, and that's only a small portion of our army. You saw they are very well motivated. They know very well the Sandinistas. And I am sure that we will keep fighting until the Sandinistas give enough evidence, enough proof that they are really changing. HUNTER-GAULT: We go next to today's Reagan/contra meeting. It took place as both sides in the Nicaraguan conflict are taking steps to respond to the regional peace plan signed in August in Guatemala. For a firsthand report, we have one of the contra leaders, Alfonso Robelo, who joins us outside the Los Angeles hotel where the meeting was held. Mr. Robelo was a member of the first coalition government after the fall of the Samoza dictatorship, but later broke with the Sandinistas. He now represents the Social Democrats in their resistance. Mr. Robelo, I know you're not a journalist, but if you had to write a headline on today's meeting, what would it be? ALFONSO ROBELO, Nicaraguan Resistance: That the Nicaraguan resistance has asked President Reagan to keep lethal aid in escrow for a few years between September 30 and November 7, so the peace plan of the Central American presidents will have a real chance. We are for peace. HUNTER-GAULT: That's with the Arias -- President Arias of Costa Rica was supposed to be planning to ask for as well. Mr. ROBELO: That's correct. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, you just heard, I guess you heard our taped piece with Mr. Bermudez, the military leader, saying that this is a very dangerous proposition to withhold that aid until the Sandinistas demonstrate some kind of peace steps. Mr. ROBELO: Commander Bermudez was, as we saw, at the meeting with the President, and he's a team member of the government, and we all agree that this was our initiative, we want to give peace a fair chance. So Commander Bermudez goes along with that decision of the directorate. HUNTER-GAULT: Does that mean that you've seen some indications that the Sandinistas are serious about responding to this peace proposal? Mr. ROBELO: Well, if we look at the past history of the Sandinistas, we have to be very skeptical. However, we have to give peace a fair chance, and that's what we're doing. The doors are going to be open from our side continuously. HUNTER-GAULT: Are you encouraged at all by the moves that the Sandinistas made this week, in terms of putting together a national reconciliation panel, including members from the opposition, allowing two Catholic Bishops to return, putting a leading opposition Catholic Bishop on this panel? Mr. ROBELO: I think the presence of Cardinal Orlando is a guarantee in that committee. But the other members are pro Sandinistas, and we are going to counter a three to one proposition there. The fact that they have allowed the two Bishops to return to Nicaragua, I think, is a positive step. We don't want to -- as I say -- continue with war. What we want is to have peace, and if this is a real peace, we welcome it. What we don't welcome is a fake that will only make cosmetic changes. And because of that, we are taking initiatives like the one we took today, requesting the president to withhold the lethal aid and keep it in escrow during that period of time. HUNTER-GAULT: This meeting was billed as a meeting by the president to show that he still -- that he did not plan to abandon the contra cause. What did he say that reassured you, if anything? Mr. ROBELO: Well, he reassured us that he wanted to give the peace plan of the Central American presidents a fair chance. That if that plan gets to an end, it will mean that we have fulfilled our goals of democracy. And it should be recognized by everyone that dictator Ortega signed a peace plan because of the pressure we have been able to mount on them. So everything looks promising, and President Reagan of course reiterated his commitment for peace and democracy in Nicaragua. HUNTER-GAULT: The Arias plan, of course, signed by four other presidents of Central American governments, calls for an end to all aid from all outside countries should this peace plan go into effect. Now, the President today spoke about adequate funds until there is a cease fire. How worried are you that this regional plan put forward is going to diminish your chances of getting aid from the U. S. Congress? Mr. ROBELO: Well, it is clear that it has been through military pressure, among others, and economic pressure and political pressures that the Sandinistas have sat at the table and signed this plan. So if pressure is needed, continue in order to force the Sandinistas to comply with what they have signed -- so to us, aid is essential. But in order to give a chance, as I say, we want lethal aid to be put in escrow for that period of time. We feel that our fighters inside Nicaragua can continue with pressure easily during that period of time from September 30 to November 7. Now, let me say, the door is open for cease fire. We have offered to initiate, to start talks with (unintelligible) Sandinistas September 15. And they are the ones rejecting that (unintelligible) talk with us. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, the Sandinistas are saying that the contras are merely puppets of the United States and for any real peace talks to ensue or begin, the talks have to be between Nicaragua, the Sandinista government, and the United States. What's your response to that? Mr. ROBELO: Well, my response is a very simple one. In the agreement that they just signed in Guatemala, they signed and said that we were either irregular forces or insurgent forces. They didn't call that we were puppets. They recognized the reality. They recognized that status to us. How come they are changing their minds now? HUNTER-GAULT: Well, what is going to happen? I mean, if they're insisting that the parties to any peace negotiation be the United States and the Sandinistas, what does that say for the prospect of this peace process? Mr. ROBELO: Well, I hope that the world -- that is, the goodness of what has been signed -- is going to put pressure on the Sandinistas to make them reasonable. It's logical that if there is a civil war in Nicaragua going on and two parties are involved, they have to talk to each other in order to have a cease fire. Nobody -- and let me make it very clear -- nobody negotiates for us. Not even our best allies that in this case is the Reagan Administration. It is only us, the Nicaraguan Resistance that can talk about a cease fire. HUNTER-GAULT: You're supposed to meet, I believe tomorrow, with Democratic House speaker Jim Wright. What is your message to him? Mr. ROBELO: We are going to exactly propose what we have proposed today to the Administration. That only humanitarian aid continues after September 30, and military aid is put in escrow until we see the results of the deadline of November 7, where all of the presidents of Central America, or the governments of Central America, should implement what they have signed in Guatemala. HUNTER-GAULT: Now, aside from the November 7 date, is there a plan by which you have to see certain steps from the Sandinistas before you will change your conditions? Mr. ROBELO: Well, I think that we're moving and showing clear signs of good will. I hope that they answer to our good will in the same fashion. It will be interesting to open the doors of the jails in Nicaragua and have the seven or eight thousand prisoners free so they can enjoy the amnesty. Why wait until November 7 and not do it now? Let's have freedom of the press. They can do it now. Why wait until November 7, etc. ? And why don't talk to us and try to reach a cease fire. HUNTER-GAULT: Are you more optimistic than ever before that this whole cycle of violence in your country is about to end? Are you more optimistic than ever? Mr. ROBELO: Yes, I am. I hope that we can achieve something, we are giving it, as I say, a fair try. We are for peace, not for war. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, thank you very much for being with us. NASA LEHRER: We go finally tonight to a news maker interview with James Fletcher, the man in charge of NASA and the nation's space program. Morton Thiokol was having problems today conducting the first test of the shuttle's solid rocket booster since last year's Challenger disaster. Mr. Fletcher, what's going on, do you know what the problem is? JAMES FLETCHER, NASA: Well, yes. The problem is not with the solid rocket, not at all. That seems to be working fine. But this is a very important test, and so the test equipment that goes with it measuring all the little things that happen as the engine fires -- it's just awfully important that that works, and they've been having trouble with some of that test equipment. LEHRER: But not in the rocket itself? Mr. FLETCHER: No, not at all. LEHRER: What kind of problems -- what kind of testing problems is it? Mr. FLETCHER: Well, the obvious one -- it's kind of ridiculous. They only have one camera to take a picture of the flame as it comes out and also the joints. And they had to reload the camera. That took another 15 minutes. But the biggest delay was due to the water cooling system, which is to cool the rocket motor down after it's fired. And that caused a two hour delay. LEHRER: You're here in Washington. The test is in Utah, and this thing was originally set -- it was supposed to go at 3:00 o'clock Eastern time, and it didn't go. Did you have a kind of sinking feeling, oh, my goodness, here we go again? Mr. FLETCHER: Oh, no, I didn't. I was glad they postponed it. LEHRER: Why? Mr. FLETCHER: I think it's important that this test go well. And by the way, my deputy is out there, and to some extent calling the shots, and he felt that if there was any uncertainty about the test equipment that we should hold. And they all felt that if we do hold and it doesn't go tonight that we should not go tomorrow, but really make sure the test equipment is working before they fire again on Saturday. LEHRER: We should make it very clear that no lives are at risk here. This is just a rocket sitting stationary in the desert outside of Salt Lake City, correct? Mr. FLETCHER: That's right. It's kind of out in the thules, so to speak, and some of the equipment probably is not as reliable as you might have down at the Cape. But nevertheless, it is important that that equipment work before we make the first firing. LEHRER: Now, I understand there are 500 various tests being run on this at one time? Mr. FLETCHER: It's something like that. It's a very large number of measurements that are made, because you want to measure the temperature, you want to measure the expansion of the joints, you want to measure the kind of flame -- there's a nozzle, that's that big thing at the end, that joins to the case, you want to measure how that flexes during the fire. And I can imagine it could easily be 500 different measurements that they're making. LEHRER: And of course the crucial test is how the rubber O rings work, because according to the presidential commission right after the Challenger, it was a leakage there that supposedly caused the explosion and the tragedy -- correct? Mr. FLETCHER: Yes, that's right. You want to measure leaks everywhere. Remember, there's about -- one, two, three, four -- there's five of those connections -- some of them are field joints and some of them are factory joints, but still they're all O rings. You want to make sure there are no leaks anywhere in those O rings. LEHRER: Are the delays the result of just super cautiousness that you as the head of NASA and your folks have decided that you cannot afford problems so when in doubt, back off and delay? Mr. FLETCHER: That's partly it. I wouldn't say supercautious. We only have a limited number of tests before we go into qualification. We need three precisely the same tests before we're ready to fly again. And we only have one engineering test scheduled -- which is the one which is scheduled for today. We have two spares in case there needs to be changes. But then -- LEHRER: Two spare what? Mr. FLETCHER: Two spare engineering tests if they're needed. But if this one works, fine. Then it's (unintelligible) so that we're sure that it works or doesn't work. Then we'll go right into qualification tests. LEHRER: And is your schedule -- the schedule is that you hope to have another shuttle in the air by a year from now, right? Next summer? Mr. FLETCHER: Next June, yes. LEHRER: Next June. Is your schedule dependent on the test today going well? Mr. FLETCHER: No, we have a little slack in the schedule. We have -- we could have considerable delay in this particular test and still make the schedule. I can't remember exactly how many week's delay it could be, but we don't like to have too many delays because that eats up some of our slack in the schedule. LEHRER: Are you worried about eating up some psychological slack, too, if this thing doesn't go right? Mr. FLETCHER: If this doesn't go right today, yes, there would be psychological slack. But I think it will go right. The only problem is we want to make sure the test equipment is all working while we fire. LEHRER: Is it overstating the thing to say that the immediate future, at least, of the space program for the United States of America is wrapped up in what's going on in the desert in Utah? Mr. FLETCHER: The immediate future in the sense of when we fly the first shuttle is certainly related to this first test. Because the solid rocket motor test is what we call the long pole in the tent. That is the thing that is determining the first launch. If this doesn't go, we still have some slack in the schedule, but that removes some of the slack, and we don't want to remove too much of it. LEHRER: Sure, but as a practical matter, the space program is dependent on the shuttle, is it not, as a way to get to and from space? Mr. FLETCHER: Yes, indeed. Not only the civil space program, but the military space program, too. All of them depend on that shuttle going approximately in June of next year. I don't want to say it's exactly June, but that we're sure aiming for, and we hope to make that, and I think we will. LEHRER: Now, the other thing that -- down the road, the Sally Ride study that recently came out -- and she has talked about some of the things in her commission report, talked about some of the things that the future of the space program should keep in mind -- like human exploration of Mars and all that. Are they also dependent on whether or not this shuttle gets off the ground? Mr. FLETCHER: No, not to the same degree. She's looking at the period 1995 on. In fact, her study was initially entitled ''Space -- 1995'' for that reason. And so a little delay one way or the other in the shuttle program won't affect what she has suggested in any major way. However, it is important that we get the shuttle flying again soon. It could be June, or it could be anytime in 1988, or '87, with luck -- but '88 anyway. And still wouldn't affect her program. Her program is targeted for the turn of the century and beyond -- 2010, typically. And so that's far enough away so the changes in the shuttle program wouldn't affect it. LEHRER: I've just been told, Mr. Fletcher that they are now going to try the test again. At least they're set to go -- we see a picture of the scene. It's 30 seconds to go. A little less than 30 seconds now. And unless we -- fifteen seconds. Unless we get another abort, we may --

VOICE: Order is aborted. Mr. FLETCHER: -- that close -- LEHRER: It's been aborted. I've just been told it's been aborted. Mr. FLETCHER: Okay, so I guess we'll go Saturday. LEHRER: Was that the drill? Mr. FLETCHER: That was the drill, yes. LEHRER: They couldn't do it right now, we go on Saturday, not try it again tomorrow? Mr. FLETCHER: I think that's correct, yes. LEHRER: Okay. Well, Mr. Fletcher, thank you very much for being with us tonight, and good luck again on Saturday. And what else the future holds. Mr. FLETCHER: It's my pleasure to be here. HUNTER-GAULT: Again, the major stories of this Thursday, several battalions of army troops attempted to overthrow the government of Corazon Aquino in the Philippines. Mrs. Aquino is reported to be safe and the coup appears to be unsuccessful. President Reagan personally reassured the leaders of the Nicaraguan contras of his support for their cause. On the NewsHour, contra leader Alfonso Robelo said new U. S. military aid should be kept in escrow pending the outcome of peace making initiatives. And Senator Sam Nunn, Democrat of Georgia, said he has decided not to run for President in 1988. Good night, Jim. LEHRER: Good night, Charlayne. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.