The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Carter on Vietnam Veterans

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. The Carter administration made another important gesture yesterday to heal the wounds of the Vietnam War. The President approved a plan under which nearly half a million Vietnam era veterans with less than honorable discharges could ask to have the upgraded. Many of them will be upgraded automatically if the offenses do not involve violence, serious crimes or desertion under combat conditions, but each veteran will have to apply personally. One beneficiary could be the President`s own son, Jack. He was discharged from the Navy in 1970 for smoking pot.

The Secretary of Defense, Harold Brown, said the plan would be implemented in a spirit of forgiveness and compassion. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, yesterday`s action could have a very definite real-world effect on the lives of the individual veterans involved: it could mean a job. Because the G.I. Bill, including educational benefits and federal vocational training programs, are restricted by law for those less than honorably discharged. Now they would be opened up. Also, in a more general way a less than honorable discharge has always been considered a lifelong ticket to unemployment because employers are reluctant to hire veterans without honorable discharge papers. And the general consensus among veterans rights activists and organizations is that unemployment is the most serious problem for Vietnam era vets, those who already have honorable discharges as well as those who don`t.

Tonight, a look at the extent of that problem and what should be done about it. Robin?

MacNEIL: Unemployment among Vietnam era veterans may not show up as the number one issue in public opinion polls, but it`s out there. And President Carter has been confronted by it every time he has engaged in one of his "Meet the People" programs. This is what happened when he attended a special Town Meeting in Clinton, Massachusetts on March 16.

TOWNSMAN: Mr. President, I`d like to know if you have any legislative proposals in regard to the Vietnam veterans. They have a very high rate of unemployment, and it`s in the twenty-one to thirty category. And as a result I think if you`ll look in your figures you`ll find that as a category they have one of the highest rates of unemployment without any job opportunities. And under federal civil service they seem to be paying only lip service to them, and minorities seem to have the upper hand at the present time, rather than the Vietnam veterans.(Applause.)

PRESIDENT CARTER: I`ll quote a couple of statistics for you. The Vietnam veterans on the average have twice as high an unemployment rate as other young men and women of their age. Also, among those who served in Vietnam there were about twice as high a percentage of minority groups as there were other groups because quite often they were poor and they couldn`t hide in college and avoid the draft. So I think that we are moving now in the Labor Department to put together a special program for Vietnam veterans. The Congress has recently decided to extend G.I. Bill of Right benefits for the full ten years, which will help a lot of those who would have lost their education opportunities from losing those opportunities. Also, for the first time in my lifetime we`ve got quite a young man who`s familiar with the recent war in charge of the entire Veterans` Administration itself. I`ve appointed Max Cleland, who happens to be a triple amputee and who is a very tough young administrator, to be in charge of the Veterans` Administration. So I think that a move on special programs in job opportunities, an extension of the G.I. Bill of Rights and other rights for Vietnam veterans, and a change in the administration of the Veterans` Administration to orient itself toward the Vietnam veterans, who have never been appreciated, are three of the things that we can do immediately. Two of them have already been done, and as soon as the Senate and House pass our economic stimulus package a tremendous number of new jobs will be available for the Vietnam veterans. They`ll have top priority under the new jobs and training program.

MacNEIL: The special program the President referred to was announced by the Labor Department in January. Part one, called "Hire," will be launched next week. $100 million will be spent to persuade private industry to hire up to 60,000 Vietnam era veterans over eighteen months. Part two, called "Outreach," will start in June. The government will spend $20 million to hire 2400 disabled veterans as job counselors for other disabled vets. In part three, the President wanted Congress to add 415,000 additional public service jobs to the existing CETA, or Comprehensive Employment and Training Act. Thirty-five percent of the jobs would have gone to veterans with priority to those twenty to twenty-four years old. This afternoon the House of Representatives agreed to extend the CETA program, but without the special additions for veterans. Team members said they wanted to study the program further. Jim?

LEHRER: Let`s talk about all this now with two Vietnam veterans who serve on the Labor Department`s task force for veterans, an official of that Department responsible for implementing much of the government`s efforts, and a third Vietnam veteran, the man President Carter mentioned in his Clinton answer, Max Cleland, the new head of the Veterans` Administration. As the President said, Mr. Cleland lost three limbs in a grenade explosion in Vietnam. He returned to his native Georgia afterwards, served in the state Senate and then headed a special veterans` commission for the then- Governor of Georgia, a man named Carter.

Mr. Cleland, do you agree that unemployment is the number one problem now for Vietnam era vets?

MAX CLELAND: I would say so, because if you`re out of a job, you`re out of business in this society. I think that`s our number one goal, to make sure that the men coming back from Vietnam have a fair shot at reentering the economy. I think the key, though, to meeting the needs of these young men is to make sure they get back in an education and training program under the G.I. Bill.

LEHRER: How bad is the unemployment problem? The President quoted some statistics; the man in asking his question stated some statistics; the new Secretary of Labor, Mr. Marshall, has said that Vietnam era veterans continue to bear a disproportionate share of the unemployment that exists today; but is that borne out by the statistics?

CLELAND: Yes. In February of this year the unemployment rate for young veterans aged twenty to twenty-four was approximately fifteen percent, and that`s higher than non-veterans of comparable age. And for the younger veteran unemployment has remained a problem, because he was taken out of society and put in the military and really not given the chance to compete with his fellow co-workers who are now advanced in the jobs that he would have been a part of. So for the youngest veteran, particularly in his early twenties, unemployment is a big problem. Now, as I pointed out, the key is to make sure, through our outreach efforts, through our own job training efforts, through the efforts that the President has asked the Labor Department to make, that we get these men into some form of education and training which they`re entitled to under the G.I. Bill.

LEHRER: I don`t want to be picky about the statistics, but you mentioned the twenty to twenty-four age group; and according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics the veterans between the ages of twenty and thirty-four -- for all veterans -- the unemployment rate is only seven percent, compared with non-veterans at 8.6 for the same age.

CLELAND: Yes, Sir, it went down, I might say, from the month of January -- you`re quoting the February statistics. As recently as last summer, though, the unemployment rate for young veterans, particularly in their twenties, was almost nine percent. And I think it`s incumbent upon us who have leadership responsibility in the federal government to make sure that we`re doing all we can in this regard, and I think that`s what the President has asked us to do.

LEHRER: All right. Just in a general way: unemployment, you say, is the number one priority; what about the other problems that we`ve always heard about connected with veterans -- medical attention; problems with drugs, particularly Vietnam era veterans; and psychological problems -- are they taken care of, are they just a lower priority, or what?

CLELAND: Personally, I would like to see the upgrading of our hospital system, particularly in the area of drug and alcoholism rehabilitation. I think the Veterans` Administration should be strong on rehabilitation, but particularly in these two areas. As you know, young men had a problem with drugs in Vietnam; there`s some indication to believe now some of those drug problems are turning into alcohol problems. We have a special responsibility in the Veterans` Administration in this regard, particularly to make sure that our medical efforts, our rehabilitation efforts, are plugged in to efforts within the Veterans` Administration and the Labor Department to make sure that these people have a chance to enter the job market on the other end of their rehabilitation.

LEHRER: In other words, the problems still exist but they`re not as severe and widespread as the unemployment problem.

CLELAND: If you really took the figures and said, how many people are in need of drug and alcohol rehabilitation, and how many people are unemployed, I don`t know which would be the higher category, but as long as you have almost half a million young men -- the equivalent of almost thirty infantry divisions -- unemployed in this country, that is unacceptable.

LEHRER: Mr. Cleland, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: As Jim mentioned, the Secretary of Labor, Ray Marshall, has set up an interagency task force to help develop veterans` jobs programs. One member is Tom Wincek, a Vietnam veteran himself and director of the veterans` programs at the University of Minnesota. Mr. Wincek was recently elected president of the National Association of Veterans` Programs Administrators. Mr. Wincek, is the job situation the real problem?

TOM WINCEK: I think unemployment among Vietnam veterans is a very serious problem. I think an enlightening thing for Vietnam veterans was-when the President came out and stated that top priority among unemployed people would be the Vietnam era veteran and also reiterated again by Secretary of Labor Marshall. I think Congress made a serious mistake; if they were really sincere about their commitment to serving the high unemployment among Vietnam veterans they would have enacted in the legislation that was just voted on today mandates that prime sponsors -- or local units of government that actually administer CETA programs, the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act, to really make sure that veterans get serviced.

MacNEIL: That`s a serious blow to you, is it, that the House today dropped that request of the President`s?

WINCEK: Agreed, it`s a very serious problem. And I say this because since the CETA legislation enactment in 1973 veterans have always been a priority group listed within the various other clients to be served by the CETA programs. Unfortunately, over the years prime sponsors -- again, prime sponsors are local units of government that actually receive and administer the programs -- have not set realistically Vietnam veterans as a top priority. This was reemphasized in 1975, 1976. The strongest legislation in the CETA laws was in the areas of veterans where it gave special consideration to be given to: special veterans, which are combat veterans - - Vietnam veterans that served in Vietnam; recently separated veterans; and also disabled veterans. Unfortunately, because veterans are not a political reality prime sponsors who receive the monies, and every other targeted group that it`s supposed to serve -- unemployment among anybody is a serious problem -- but a more tragic problem where we`re looking at about 500,000 unemployed veterans.

MacNEIL: What are prime sponsors?

WINCEK: Prime sponsors are recipients, usually cities or counties of a population of over 100,000 that actually receive the money and are supposed to with this money evaluate the unemployment problem in their own communities and address themselves to this with certain criteria --but always a top priority to be Vietnam veterans.

MacNEIL: I see. Could I ask you this, Mr. Wincek: Mr. Carter during his campaign spoke of government insensitivity and neglect and incompetent, inefficient and unresponsive bureaucracies. Do you detect improvement in the bureaucracy, for instance, in the Labor Department so far, in their attitude?

WINCEK: Yes, I think Secretary Green, Undersecretary Brown and Secretary Marshall have really emphasized that they do want to carry out the mandates that President Carter has called for to set top priority Vietnam veterans into CETA legislation and also to a hire disabled program, which Ron is going to refer to. And so I think the administration itself has come out and made a lot of commitments to Vietnam veterans. The problem being that in the past, so have two other previous administrations -- the Nixon administration and the Ford administration -- who at that time were in charge of the CETA program and had the same commitment in the laws; but when it filters down to the local units of government the delivery services to veterans do not happen. And that`s the problem that, with the legislation that passed today, it again leaves it up to the discretion of the local units of government and there`s no reason why they should change what has been an ongoing system since 1973.

MacNEIL: Okay, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Now a word from the Labor Department, from Ernest Green. He`s the new Assistant Secretary of Labor for employment and training -- Mr. Wincek just mentioned him. Mr. Green formerly headed a New York-based organization which helped minority workers find jobs, and as a sidelight you may be interested in knowing that Mr. Green was one of the original nine students who integrated Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, in 1957. Mr. Green, does this House action today set back your program to a large degree?

ERNEST GREEN: We went before both the House and the Senate. The administration`s bill outlined a veterans` preference in the CETA amendment. We feel it does set us back; it was less than what we want ed. We wanted to have more than just extollations to move prime sponsors to include veterans high on their list of concerns. I might point out that now approximately twenty-five percent of the CETA enrollees are veterans; about half of those are Vietnam era veterans.

We are trying to move administratively, which is the only handle we have at this point, through our rules and procedures, that figure up to thirty-five percent for this fiscal year. As both Tom and Ron have pointed out, we are more or less handicapped by not having that in the legislation as we went before both houses to have it.

LEHRER: What`s the problem, Mr. Green -- are members of Congress and others just not willing to give veterans preference, and if so, why? What do they tell you and others when they say, "Hey, look, we ought to give veterans preference in this bill"?

GREEN: In the testimony that I presented before the subcommittee of the House, some discussion that this quadrant, this group, if we consider the age twenty to twenty-four, was small -- small enough that they felt it could be handled through the ongoing regulations. Our feeling is that that hasn`t been the past history, and we think that one way to move it was to put it into the regulations directly up front. I think just generally one other concern is that the intent of Congress to keep the CETA act a decentralized system, and there was some fear expressed in the hearings that this was an attempt to move back to categorical programs.

LEHRER: In other words, the very thing that Mr. Wincek was just complaining about, which is the local angle on this, is exactly what Congress wants to keep and that`s fine with them, is that right?

GREEN: The intent of the CETA system is very clearly a decentralized activity, and it is all of our Manpower monies that go out into the field go out through these prime sponsors.

LEHRER: The net question, of course, for you, Mr. Green at this point is, without this new legislation but with a commitment are you going to be able to make these programs work for veterans administratively?

GREEN: Two of the programs don`t impact on the public service employment legislation, the CETA legislation. One is the Hire program, as was explained earlier. The other is the Outreach activity for disabled veterans` counsellors. Those two programs are going on. The other thing is that the public service employment program, under the stimulus package, is going to increase up to some 725,000 enrollees over the next calendar year. The thirty-five percent would mean roughly 144,000 of those enrollees would be veterans. We think we are going to use all of our energies to try and persuade and get prime sponsors to move us close to that level. As I said, we are now at a level of twenty-five percent. It would require us to be able to move them an additional ten percent with the increased enrollment.

LEHRER: Mr. Green, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: As Mr. Green just said, two of the three sections of the Labor Department`s employment program for veterans, Hire and Outreach, focus to some extent on disabled veterans. Ronald Drach, a Vietnam veteran himself, is national employment director of Disabled American Veterans and a member of the Labor Department task force. Mr. Drach, are the administration`s two programs, Outreach and Hire, really going to help disabled veterans?

RONALD DRACH: No, I don`t think they really are. If you take a careful analysis of the programs as they are currently in existence,

I think you`ll find that the programs were designed to fail from their start. Recently we had a meeting regarding the Hire program, and we had a chance to review the draft guidelines for employers. There are several bureaucratic barriers built into this program and make it virtually impossible, in our opinion, for it to actually work and make any impact at all on the unemployment problems of disabled or Vietnam era veterans.

MacNEIL: The Hire program, just to recap, is to persuade private employers to hire up to 60,000 veterans, correct?

DRACH: That`s correct, but they`re talking about basically using the Fortune 500 list as the primary target of employers to cooperate in this program. What they fail to recognize is that these same employers are federal contractors and they have an obligation under existing legislation to take affirmative action to hire disabled veterans and also Vietnam era veterans. That program is not being implemented. Secretary Marshall, in his January 27 statement, indicated that that was one of the priorities that they could address immediately and do something about it, and also to notify all eligible disabled and Vietnam era veterans of their rights under this existing legislation. Nothing has come out of the Department of Labor to date since January 27 in that regard. The disabled veteran Outreach program supposedly was going to be temporarily federally funded jobs to hire initially 2,500 disabled veterans, according to the Secretary`s news release. That was whittled down to 2,000; now it`s whittled down to 1,911. The money`s being given to the states to hire at the state level with no control at all from the Department of Labor at the national level. We`re going to have the exact same problem we currently have in terms of the local veterans` employment representative, who is under the jurisdiction of the local office manager and no accountability whatsoever and no monitoring efforts by the Department of Labor to assure that these people are doing what the law intends them to do and what the President`s message intends them to do.

MacNEIL: Mr. Drach, could I ask you, why would they design programs to fail from the beginning? What would be the motive for that?

DRACH: I can`t address the reason for their motive, but if you look at the programs very carefully, the CETA program relies on prime sponsors, so if prime sponsors don`t come through the Department of Labor is off the hook and they can say, "Well, look, Veterans, we tried to help you. Put the blame on the prime sponsors; they won`t cooperate." The Hire program is on industry, so if you can`t get private industry to cooperate and hire disabled and Vietnam era veterans the Department of Labor can say, "Look, Veterans, we tried to help you but the private industry won`t help." The disabled veteran Outreach program -- they`re giving the authority, again, to the states. The states are to hire these people, put them in place, supposedly to work strictly on outreach for disabled veterans; but I predict that within two weeks after these people are in place they will be taking claims for unemployment insurance and also food stamp claims. I also have serious reservations with Mr. Green`s twenty-five percent enrollment in CETA of veterans. If this is true, that`s a significant jump since fiscal year `76. The entire fiscal year of `76 there was only a six percent enrollment in CETA. So I really have some serious reservations about where he got his statistics in those terms.

MacNEIL: Okay, thanks. Jim?

LEHRER: Mr. Green, Mr. Drach doesn`t think much of what you folks are up to. Where do you want to begin?

GREEN: I think that that truly is Mr. Drach`s position. We think we are going to have a program that`s going to benefit disabled veterans, that the Hire program is going to work, and that we`re going to be able to move the CETA program. I would have to say that the jury is out and that we will be judged on our results. We think we`ve got a sound program. As in anything on this, we use the system that is intact; the CETA system, as pointed out, is our major deliverer of employment programs around this country.

That is a decentralized system, its intent is laid out very clearly by Congress as to what they intended for it to be, and that is the system that we use for our employment and training activity. On the disabled veterans` Outreach program, we do have guidelines, and I think that the results, again, on that will show that we`re able to maintain the effort, able to keep those counselors that we`re attempting to get attached permanently to those state employment operations, and that they will be able to perform a very worthwhile function.

LEHRER: All right. As you say, the jury is out. Let`s come back to Mr. Cleland`s outfit and the Veterans` Administration. We`ve been talking about the Labor Department here for a while. The President said in his talk that the V .A. has not been Vietnam era oriented up to this point. Mr. Cleland, what are you doing about that?

CLELAND: Let me address a couple of questions that have been raised first, if you don`t mind, and then I`ll get back to your point.

LEHRER: Sure .

CLELAND. First, the entire federal effort on aiding those who do not have jobs, particularly young Vietnam era veterans, does not rest completely on CETA or on the legislation that was not passed today in the House. We have a substantial body of law already in existence that the President has pledged to fully enforce and stringently enforce -- legislation already on the books, such as that dealing with federal contractors who make over $10,000 a year with the federal government, to affirmatively hire disabled veterans and Vietnam era veterans. There are a couple of things that the Veterans` Administration is attempting to do in order to get around some of these bureaucratic barriers that have been mentioned. Unfortunately, this has been part of the story in the past but we hope that we can work at that. First, we have agreed to work with the Labor Department and inform disabled veterans around the country through the means of check stuffers in their disability compensation checks of their rights under the law as far as their opportunity to be hired and given preference in hiring is concerned. Secondly, we hope to make some imaginative use of disabled veterans in our V.A. Outreach centers around the country. So we`re aware of the bureaucratic barriers that have been placed as a stumbling block, in a sense, before the young veterans; but we`re trying to attack the problem as best we can in coordination with the Labor Department in getting around some of these barriers. The President mentioned that the Veterans` Administration had been insensitive, particularly in terms of young veterans. When I came through the system, particularly the hospital system in the late sixties, I found this to be true. However, there has been a good deal of progress made, and I hope with my appointment we`ll be able to be sensitive not only to the problems of young veterans but old veterans as well.

LEHRER: Does it concern you, Mr. Cleland, and all of you, the point that Mr. Drach made a moment ago, which was that you went through this list and said, "These people get off the hook here, they get off the hook there." Is that a problem? Do you feel that people want off the hook as far as taking care of the Vietnam veterans is concerned?

CLELAND: I think it starts at the top. I think it starts with Presidential commitment. The laws are on the books -- substantial laws are on the books, and if the President wants them enforced, they will be enforced; and I think this President does want them enforced.

GREEN: And I`d like to point out that I certainly take exception to previous administrations, that both President Carter and Secretary Marshall have gone further than any other administration in addressing themselves to practical programs that get at the heart of young veterans who have suffered high unemployment. And as I pointed out, I think that when you examine the programs -- the Hire program, the disabled vets placement and the PSC -- that you`ll find that our record will stand.

LEHRER: Our record is that we have to go -- our record is over. Robin?

MacNEIL: Thank you all, gentlemen. Good night, Jim. Jim Lehrer and I will be back tomorrow evening. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.