The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MacNeil: Good evening. I'm Robert MacNeil in New York.

MS. WOODRUFF: And I'm Judy Woodruff in Washington. After our News Summary, we go first to disturbing revelations about the way women in the military are being treated by their male colleagues. In the wake of charges of sexual harassment and abuse, we talk with two army generals, a navy commander, and a former secretary of the navy. Then economist John Kenneth Galbraith in another of our series of conversations about the economy, and finally essayist Jack Perkins on the joy of gardening down East. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: More aid reached citizens in the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo today. Some of the food and medicine flown into the besieged city yesterday was trucked to four distribution centers by United Nations officials. Also today, reinforcements began arriving for U.N. peacekeepers guarding the city's airport. Edward Stourton of Independent Television News reports from Sarajevo on the relief effort.

EDWARD STOURTON, ITN: A welcome sight is to the U.N. troops at the airport the first French infantry Marines on their way in. It had been a quiet day, but that could change at any time here. The 120 French troops now coming in are the advance party for the much larger force required to secure the airport. And with a battalion of Canadian infantry still struggling to make their way through the mountains, they may for a while have to do it on their own. The work of the soldiers will decide how quickly relief reaches the civilians. Half the aid which came in yesterday was this morning still at the airport, trapped there by the fighting yesterday. This process is painfully slow, but it is inching forward. And there's no doubt that the arrival of the first French Marines has come as a huge relief to the tiny U.N. force who have been holding this airport. The United Nations commander, Gen. Mackenzie, has a public relations job to do here, as well as a military one. And this afternoon, he visited the hospital wards in Central Sarajevo. Men and women together, the Bosnians say they are all civilians. Most were injured by snipers. There are so many that they're filling the hospital corridors.

GEN. LEWIS MACKENZIE, U.N. Commander: Certainly the casualties, particularly when you see a large number of civilian women, children, and elderly people, it just multiplies the tragedy of this tragic situation.

MR. STOURTON: And your judgment at the moment on whether you can get the airport open to bring the supplies in that these people need?

GEN. LEWIS MACKENZIE: I'm encouraged, but, you know, I've had mood swings here every few hours today. I'm encouraged.

MR. STOURTON: No tour of Sarajevo is complete without a visit to what's known as the most dangerous corner in the city. Gen. Mackenzie, nervous Bosnian territorials in attendance, was shown the area the snipers favor. It matters that he seemed to listen to the case from both sides. He must convince them both that the U.N. is acting in good faith if the aid operation is to succeed.

MR. MacNeil: President Bush said today he was appalled by the suffering in Bosnia. He said, U.S. forces were stationed in the Adriatic Sea, off the Yugoslav Coast, to show that the U.S. was serious about ending the crisis. But he said at this point the U.S. was not prepared to use those forces. He made the comments during an interview on CBS this morning. Later, at a White House briefing, Sec. of State Baker said he believed the President was only referring to the use of ground or combat troops. He said the U.s. was prepared to act.

JAMES BAKER, Secretary of State: I don't think anybody has questioned the willingness of the United States to support a United Nations resolution that would authorize the use of all necessary means for the purpose of providing or facilitating the provision of humanitarian assistance, for that purpose. We have just this morning received our first request from the United Nations for two C-130 aircraft. And we are in the process of making those arrangements.

MR. MacNeil: Baker said the U.S. government had to be cautious about using ground troops and would require a new United Nations resolution before doing so. He said, "There is a quagmire potential here. We cannot be the world's policemen." Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: A special congressional task force cleared President Bush today of allegations that he took part in a 1980 Paris meeting where a deal was struck to delay the release of U.S. hostages in Iran. The task force is investigating whether officials representing the Reagan-Bush campaign engineered a delay to preventa hostage release before the November 1980 election. The investigation is not complete, but preliminary findings were released today. Congressman Lee Hamilton, Democrat of Indiana, is chairman of the task force.

REP. LEE HAMILTON, [D] Indiana: As of Monday, the task force finally got the access to the unretracted secret service logs. And as a consequence of that, I report to you that all credible evidence leads to the conclusion that President Bush was in the United States continuously during the October 18/October 22, 1980 time frame, and that he was not attending secret meetings in Paris.

MS. WOODRUFF: Hamilton said the task force would not release any further conclusions until it completes the investigation, probably before the end of the year. In another forum, President Bush answered allegations today that his administration aided Iraq before the Gulf War, despite evidence that Saddam Hussein was using the money to build weapons. During his interview on CBS this morning, Mr. Bush vehemently denied the charge.

PRES. BUSH: ["CBS This Morning"] We did not go to enhance his nuclear, biological, or chemical capability. I have an executive order out on specifically that. And you have repeated something that isn't true, and all these hearings up there for a bunch of people that want to redefine something that was noble and good, Desert Storm, and make it bad. And, yes, we tried to bring him into the family of nations, just as I'm trying to do with others around the world today. And I'll keep doing it. But when somebody invades another country, we are not going to permit it, and in not permitting it, we had the respect of every nation in the world and so I'm glad you asked that question, and I feel very strongly that these revisionists who stood against us on Desert Storm are now trying to make themselves look good before this election. It's pure gut American politics.

MS. WOODRUFF: A United Nations spokesman said today that the U.N. was considering new measures to enforce the post Gulf War weapons embargo against Iraq. Also, today's New York Times reported that the Bush administration was concerned about the illegal trade of goods between Iraq and Jordan. Sec. of State Baker confirmed today that U.S. officials are discussing those concerns with Jordan's leaders. The Jordanian government has claimed that it is strictly enforcing the international trade ban.

MR. MacNeil: A Senate Committee today approved the Freedom of Choice Act that codifies the Supreme Court's Roe versus Wade decision of 1973. The vote was twelve to five. The bill is similar to one approved yesterday by a House Committee. On Monday, the court upheld Roe v. Wade by a one-vote margin that allowed states to put restrictions on abortions. President Bush was asked about that during the CBS interview.

PRES. BUSH: My position is well known on abortion. It's tough issue for everybody in this country, but I favor the right to life. And I don't support it. You mentioned part of the decision. This court upheld a provision that says, hey, a young child shouldn't get an abortion without the consent of the parents. I think that's very good. I think that helps strengthen family and I think that's -- I think that was a wise decision. So, no, I am not in favor of Roe/Wade and I would like to see a decision go the other way on it.

MR. MacNeil: The full House and Senate are expected to vote on the freedom of choice legislation later this summer and President Bush is expected to veto it. Supporters have said they won't have enough votes to override.

MS. WOODRUFF: A gunman opened fire today in a Ft. Worth, Texas courtroom, killing a prosecutor and a lawyer. Three other people were wounded, including two judges. It happened at the Tarrant County Appeals Court. The motive was not clear. Police said the gunman started shooting from the spectators section during a minor criminal case. He escaped and a police search is underway. Workers began retrieving benzine today that was spilled into a Northern Wisconsin river in a train derailment. The toxic spill yesterday forced the evacuation of 50,000 people in Wisconsin and Minnesota. All but a few families close to the Superior, Wisconsin spill site were allowed back today. Environmental officials said they did not know how long the clean-up would take.

MR. MacNeil: The state of California ran out of money today and prepared to pay its employees and creditors with I.O.U.'s, something last done during the Great Depression. State legislators failed to agree on the new budget by the end of the fiscal year last night. Unless they break their impasse, the newly printed I.O.U.'s will be mailed later this week. Four other states, Florida, North Carolina, Illinois, and Rhode Island, also began the July to June fiscal year without budgets.

MS. WOODRUFF: Queen Elizabeth was in Canada today for ceremonies marking its 125th year as an independent nation. The visit came amid a looming national unity crisis. The country's 10 provinces have been unable to agree on proposals for constitutional reforms. The main reforms are to accommodate demands by Quebec for greater autonomy. The French-speaking province has threatened to break away if its demands are not met. Julie Van Dussen of CBC News reports from Ottawa.

JULIE VAN DUSSEN, CBC News: The queen arrived on Parliament Hill to thousands of cheering admirers. On this beautiful, sunny day, the queen seemed to enjoy the festive mood. In his speech, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney offered reassurance to the queen about Canada's future.

BRIAN MULRONEY, Prime Minister, Canada: Let me tell you today, Your Majesty, on behalf of the thousands and thousands of Canadians here today, and across this vast country, that we shall not suffer Canada to be broken.

JULIE VAN DUSSEN: In her remarks, the queen had pointed advice for Canada's leaders. They must compromise, she said, to achieve a constitutional deal.

QUEEN ELIZABETH: By thinking first and foremost of the national interest, Canada's interest, they will be able to unite all Canadians and establish a constitution which will serve the country well in the decades to come.

JULIE VAN DUSSEN: The crowd was especially enthusiastic when the queen offered praise for Canada's peacekeepers in the former Yugoslavia.

QUEEN ELIZABETH: They seek to bring peace under United Nation auspices to a dangerous situation in Bosnia. They serve both Canada and the cause of peace with courage and conviction. As queen of Canada, I salute their contribution with pride.

MS. WOODRUFF: That's it for the News Summary. Just ahead, how widespread is sexual abuse against women in the military, economist John Kenneth Galbraith, and essayist Jack Perkins on gardening. FOCUS - CONDUCT UNBECOMING

MR. MacNeil: Our major focus tonight, the harassment and abuse that apparently face the growing ranks of women in the armed forces. The issue has been dramatized in the past few days by two incidents, the congressional testimony of female veterans whose allegations of rape were ignored by commanding officers, and the so-called "Tail Hook Controversy" which has brought the resignation of the secretary of the navy. Our coverage begins with this backgrounder from correspondent Kwame Holman.

MR. HOLMAN: The issue of sexual abuse and harassment in the military burst into the public arena with the so-called "Tail Hook Scandal." At an annual gathering of navy aviators in a Las Vegas hotel last September, some 26 women, including 14 military officers, reported being attacked and fondled by male officers, many of them reportedly drunk. One of the female officers, Navy Lt. Paula Coughlin, went public with her allegations.

LT. PAULA COUGHLIN, U.S. Navy: [ABC News] I was attacked by naval officers and marine officers that knew who I was and it was a sport to them. It was a good time. And it's not a good time. It's against the law. It's criminal. And it's wrong. They wouldn't have done it to their sister. They wouldn't have done it to their wife. They'd be mortified if someone did it to anyone they love. But for them, it was a sport.

MR. HOLMAN: Last Friday, under pressure from President Bush, Navy Sec. Lawrence Garrett handed in his resignation. The "Tail Hook" incident not only dramatized the issue of sexual harassment, but was the latest reminder since the gulf War that in the all volunteer U.S. military women are assuming a larger role and filling positions of greater responsibility. Women now number more than 200,000, or 11 percent of the total uniformed military. And as the Gulf War showed, even though they cannot be assigned to combat units, women share the risks of war. Thirteen women were killed during Operation Desert Storm, four listed as killed in action. Two were held captive by Iraqi forces. But alongside the measures of women's assimilation into the military are other statistics. A Senate Committee study reported that among the 1.2 million female veterans, some 60,000 have been raped or sexually assaulted while in the military. A Pentagon survey two years ago said more than a third of the military women questioned had experienced some kind of sexual harassment, either physical or verbal. Yesterday, there was more dramatic testimony before the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. A group of women veterans, including one Gulf War soldier, described incidents of rape and sexual abuse which they said were reported to commanding officers, but ignored.

BARBARA FRANCO, Military Veteran: I was raped in April 1975. When I reported the rape to my first sergeant, he said, "What did you expect?" I was assigned for duty at Ft. Hood, Texas. The attitude toward the women soldiers was the same. Women soldiers were commonly referred to as "government issue pussy." An announcement was once made in formation that a judge magistrate had ruled that enlisted women could not bring rape charges against enlisted men because rape was incident to military service for women. I was abducted and raped a second time in August 1975. I did not attempt to report this incident.

MR. HOLMAN: The issue is due for more scrutiny as at least one more congressional committee prepares to investigate the "Tail Hook" incident and other sexual harassment charges.

MS. WOODRUFF: Joining us now to discuss how serious and how widespread this problem is are four former and current members of the armed services. Brigadier General Thomas Jones is in charge of the human resources directorate of the United States Army. Retired Army Brigadier General Pat Foote served last as commander of the Ft. Belvoire Army Base in Virginia. Commander Rosemary Mariner was among the first group of women to be naval aviators and went on to command a jet squadron. She will soon take a post with the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Washington. And John Lehman, former naval aviator and secretary of the navy in the Reagan administration; he is currently an investment banker and the author of several books in military history. Gen. Foote, are you surprised by this testimony yesterday on the Hill, the "Tail Hook" incident leading to the resignation of one of the service secretaries. Are you surprised by all this?

GENERAL FOOTE: I guess I was surprised and dismayed, but in some respects, I think it's something that has been going to happen for quite some time because if you talk to women who are in the military, I think you will get a consensus among those who are professionals that perhaps their services are not valued on the same par that the services of the men are, because, let's face it, women are not permitted or given access to all of the occupational areas that the men serve in. And given this, there's a tendency on the part of many of the men to demean what the women contribute to the national defense effort. One thing leads to another. So while I was shocked by what happened, I can't say that I was totally surprised that it happened. I think it's something that's going to happen again and again until we do something to more even the playing field on which military people play.

MS. WOODRUFF: Commander Mariner, what about you, are you surprised by all this that's come out in the last few days and weeks?

COMMANDER MARINER: I was very surprised when I first heard ab0 v the "Tail Hook" incident because I am a member of that association and have been to many over the years and never seen anything like this at all.

MS. WOODRUFF: Were you attending this one?

COMMANDER MARINER: Not this year, no. But I would also like to point out first that I am representing myself and not the Navy. But I was of a generation in the early seventies, when we first came in, in which this kind of thing was more common. And one of the things that has happened over the last 20 years is that it is not as common as it used to be, that women are not in a position where they are defenseless. But it is up to them and up to the commanding officers that are responsible for them to make sure these incidents come forward.

MS. WOODRUFF: When you say it's not as prevalent, not as common as it used to be, what do you mean? I mean, how bad did it used to be? What are you referring to?

COMMANDER MARINER: Well, right after the Vietnam War, when women first entered in large numbers, it was made very clear to most of us in non-traditional fields like aviation that a certain percentage of people did not want us there. On the other hand, many men, combat-experienced aviators, were very supportive of us. And because of that, I stayed and have been most gratified in my career. But you could find yourself in a position where if your commanding officer was the abuser, for example, that you -- unless you decided you were going to go above his head -- did not have any means of dealing with that situation.

MS. WOODRUFF: How -- I mean, how serious incidents are we talking about? I mean, it's one thing to say that women are treated differently, or treated with less respect than are men in the military, but it's another thing to, to get into some of these incidents that have come out into the public light just recently.

COMMANDER MARINER: Far more common was what I call the bigotry. It's the same thing as racial harassment. When you have a minority group in an institution and you are not allowed to part in its fundamental business, then people naturally look at you as inferior and they think that the bosses think the same thing of you. Abuse and assault charges have always been rare. And I'm always surprised when I hear that commanding officers would not respond the way that most of us, and in my experience most men respond. Sexual harassment has a different connotation. These were abuse charges.

MS. WOODRUFF: You're talking about just recently?

COMMANDER MARINER: Recently. And in the testimony.

MS. WOODRUFF: Gen. Jones, how serious is it -- how serious really does the Pentagon take all of this? I mean, how serious a problem is it seen to be?

GENERAL JONES: Speaking for the army, I will tell you that we regard it as a very serious matter. We feel that we are charged with the lives of the young men and women of America. Parents have a right to expect us to be concerned about these issues. We have for a number of years had an effort to educate both commanders and soldiers. Commander Mariner made a very important point, and that is the point that it is incumbent on us not only to educate commanders on how to deal with issues involving sexual harassment, but also to educate soldiers and to educate soldiers as to what is accepted behavior and educate them as to the channels for dealing with abuses.

MS. WOODRUFF: And I want to get to that, the remedies in a moment, but how widespread? I mean, these numbers from these studies are staggering. The Pentagon study that was done in 1990, more than a third of the women experienced some form of harassment, including touching, pressure for sexual favors, and rape.

GENERAL JONES: The Pentagon study had a number. It had a range of behavior and that is part of the difficulty that everyone has in dealing with the issue of sexual harassment. it was the same issue that was widely discussed in the media during the Anita Hill hearings. You're dealing with a range of behavior that ranges from comments and remarks, to dating behavior, to, at the other extreme, rape. The egregious situations that have been mentioned by the people in the interviews here are not the commonplace occurrence within the military. The commonplace occurrence that we are dealing with most of the time is the occurrence of comments and gestures and these things.

MS. WOODRUFF: But, again, in the Senate study, another study that Kwame Holman mentioned in his report, 1988, reported 5 percent of the women surveyed reported actual or attempted rape in the last, in the previous 12 months. Now, are those figures that the army accepts?

GENERAL JONES: Well, the question on the survey to the women asked: Were you ever the victim of an actual or attempted sexual assault or a rape? That essentially is four different things, so a woman that said I was the victim of an attempted sexual assault was a one in that column the same as the woman who said I was the victim of an actual rape. So that data needs to be cut better. But the 5 percent I would accept, in that range.

MS. WOODRUFF: John Lehman, how much worse do you think this problem is in the military -- and I know your experience is in the navy -- but in the military overall -- or you want to refer just to the navy -- than it is in the rest of American society?

SEC. LEHMAN: Well, I think that the military is a very different kind of culture than any other institution in our society. It really is, I think, not the best institution to become a social laboratory for leading the breakdown of barriers. I think that the military has done extremely well where it has reflected the desires of the population as a whole. For instance, on racial equality, it is the truest, genuinely merit-based equal opportunity institution I think in the world today. In getting rid of the dope problem, no institution as been as successful as the navy and the other services in getting rid of the dope problem. They are now having a very awkward period in trying to absorb and change a culture that is hundreds of years old of all male close-knit, close living and going into combat, that is causing a lot of adjustments. I totally reject the linkage that so many people grand-standing in Capitol Hill have made that somehow the incidence of rape, the incidence of assault in "Tail Hook" are somehow a part of the discrimination against women going into senior equal professional roles. I think the two are totally unrelated.

MS. WOODRUFF: Are they unrelated, General Foote?

GENERAL FOOTE: I perhaps have a different view from Sec. Lehman, because I have felt -- and this is based on my own 30 years of experience -- that whenever a person is denied the opportunity to prove that they have the skills that they can contribute to fields that have been kept for men only, then that person will not be valued, they'll be devalued. And behavior towards that individual frequently will be less than civil. I think there is a definite tie between what we see in attacks against women who are in non- traditional fields on the part of some men. And believe me, I'm not talking all men. We have a great deal of support from male commanders and non-commissioned officers, who have served with women in combat, support combat service support. And they know the value of the women as soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines. But there is a linkage, at least as I see it, between discrimination against people solely because of gender and how the rank and file of men and women regard each other. I think there's a linkage.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why has it been kept quiet for so long? I mean, why is it now that so much of this is coming out? I mean, some of these stories are incidents that happened years and years ago.

COMMANDER MARINER: Because the Gulf War recognized to the American public that military women were doing all these things. We knew it in the fleet, but a lot of the public was not aware of that. And the television brought it home. And I would disagree with Sec. Lehman. All of my 20 years, or just about 20 years in this business tells me that if you cannot share the equal risks and hazards in arduous duty, then you are not equal. And if the institution can discriminate against you, then it's not a big leap for the minority -- and it is a minority of bigots -- to decide that well, I can harass you and I can get away with it. And that's the big difference here is why will somebody think they can get away with that?

SEC. LEHMAN: I really disagree with that. I think that the -- certainly the gripe that women in the navy have that they don't have equal access to command opportunity and advancement to the top is a legitimate one and one with which I have sympathy. I think society is clearly moving to want total equal opportunity, and that includes combat roles. And I believe that the barriers have to be removed and women have to be able to compete for and win combat assignments just as men do. I totally disagree that that -- the fact that they are not now eligible for certain combat-related roles then makes it allowable behavior for officers to abuse women. The complaints I have heard for many years in the navy is that naval women feel that the attitude of officers, particularly aviators, tends to be the opposite. They tend to treat them too much on a pedestal and are condescending to them as the fairer sex. And the kind of behavior that is alleged and almost certainly happened at "Tail Hook" has never been tolerated in the naval officer court, never. It certainly happened, because there are always a few, very few bad actors, but in my experience, and certainly naval history, throughout naval history, these kinds of incidents and the kinds of behavior, when they do happen, are dealt with very sternly, and certainly they should be in this case. But that is not a function of the attitude of the navy towards women.

MS. WOODRUFF: But he's saying --

COMMANDER MARINER: It is not the navy. When you talk about the navy, you're talking about individuals. And, again, I talk about what I call the jerks. There's always that 10 percent of the jerks down there that any group of people that they think are defenseless they might try to push around. And as a commanding officer, one of the things that I discovered was that you may think things are going fine, because you don't see it on that upper level, and then you find out that there is, in fact, a problem, and it's one individual, but that person has intimidated the victims to the point where they're just plain afraid. And that's why it might now be coming out as a surprise.

MS. WOODRUFF: You're nodding.

GENERAL FOOTE: I can attest to that, because when I was commanding a basic training battalion, it was an integrated basic training battalion, men and women training together back in the late '70s, I had one incident that infuriated me. And I am sure it happened, but I couldn't get the young woman to testify to the fact that she had been sexually assaulted by one of her superiors. But she refused to bring charges at all. She was afraid.

MS. WOODRUFF: How did you deal with the situation?

GENERAL FOOTE: The man involved, although I had no proof, because the woman -- it was a one-on-one type of a situation, and it was the only incident that we had reporting concerning his behavior. There were other aspects of his behavior that ultimately led to his removal as a drill sergeant. But what was truly infuriating was I could not get the person, herself, to come forward and stand up and be counted. This was her life. This was her body that had been violated, and she was afraid.

MS. WOODRUFF: General Jones, how do you deal with that? I mean, how do you deal with a situation where you have very -- I mean, the military is all about chain of command and if there's someone over you in terms of rank, just the natural intimidation that one feels, how do you deal with that?

GENERAL JONES: That is an area to which we are exceedingly sensitive, because we recognize from the very first day that a soldier comes in to their basic training in the military that they are subject to an environment which is essentially a hierarchy and that to a degree, the extent to which they succeed within that hierarchy is the degree to which they are evaluated by their superiors. In recognition of that is the reason that we put considerable emphasis on training commanders to understand the responsibilities they have in that hierarchy and also training soldiers to understand that there are not only within that hierarchy avenues for them to take complaints if they are not being properly treated, but that there are extra avenues to go if the hierarchy is not responsive or if the abuser is a member of that hierarchy.

MS. WOODRUFF: Do you have evidence? How long has this training, this sort of training, been taking place?

GENERAL JONES: We have been engaged in the sexual harassment piece of it as a specific focus item since the early '80s.

MS. WOODRUFF: And do you have evidence that it's working? I mean, because you have obviously some incidents are still taking place.

GENERAL JONES: I think that probably one of the developing evidences that we have that it is working is that while overall complaints of sexual harassment by soldiers are slightly decreasing, the number of complaints that are substantiated as having merit is slightly increasing. So that tells me as someone who assesses the program that the individuals who are being abused understand the dimensions of what is happening to them and know where to go with the complaint and know how to present a complaint and they're assisted in doing that.

MS. WOODRUFF: Commander Mariner, do you think there's a difference among or between the services in how serious a problem this is? I should say that we spoke today with two women, one woman who was an air force captain, another woman air force sergeant. The captain told us she had never been harassed, she had not seen, she didn't think the air force as a rule tolerated this sort of behavior. The other, the sergeant said that she had experienced two serious incidents, both of which led to men being discharged. But do you see a difference?

COMMANDER MARINER: I don't think it's a service difference. I think the big difference is between officer and enlisted. And that goes back to where you are in the hierarchy. Women officers are less likely, because they are higher on the totem pole. Senior women are not likely at all, and not just because of age, but because your rank means something in this organization. So it very much tends to focus on the junior enlisted level. And I will comment on how we handle this. Our traditions and how we do discipline matters traditionally work very well. If you look at these charges as criminal charges or assault charges, they're all under the UCMJ, and that's the way they, I would think they should be --

MS. WOODRUFF: The Uniform Code of Military Justice.

COMMANDER MARINER: of Military Justice. Because if you call them sexual harassment, that has a meaning like you're telling jokes, and people do not react the same way. But it's an offense, and you can charge it that way. And it's very effective. When the troops see somebody go to captain's mass and receive punishment or be court martialed, then they think twice before they indulge in that kind of behavior.

MS. WOODRUFF: John Lehman, why do you think it was so difficult for the navy officers who were involved, I guess retired and current, in the "Tail Hook" affair to be, to be forthcoming? What is it, out of the hundreds they talked to, there were only two or three who were willing to speak out.

SEC. LEHMAN: Well, first of all, I don't think that most officers when they heard about that, even those who were at the convention, not certainly in that particular room at the time, just didn't give it much credibility, because the experience of all of us that have spent decades in the navy and in the aviation community has just been so totally opposite to what this story is. It clearly happened. It was a terribly thuggish criminal behavior, apparently. It's just not in our experience. I mean, that's not the way officers behave. That's not the way aviators behave. Now, clearly, it happened. But I don't -- I understand completely how some people just felt it was being exaggerated. And now they know it wasn't. But they know it wasn't because Sec. Garrett launched a full scale investigation and I think he'sbeen to a certain extent been getting quite a bum rap for not acting vigorously, because he did.

MS. WOODRUFF: You don't think he should have had to resign?

SEC. LEHMAN: No, I don't think he should have had to resign at all. I think he's the victim of a political election year in which the women's issues for some legitimate reasons and some not so legitimate have become a central focus on the Democratic campaign against the Bush administration. And this is just a bully issue to -- I mean, there's no other way to explain the grandstanding of the Democrats in the Armed Service Committee holding up 4,000 navy --

MS. WOODRUFF: Positions.

SEC. LEHMAN: -- positions, except to get more time. So unfortunately somebody had to walk the plank. And it was unjust that it was Larry Garrett.

MS. WOODRUFF: Do you think that's what this is all about, General Foote, a political year and women's issues?

GENERAL FOOTE: I don't see it as a particular political issue per se with this year. I think it simply is the outgrowth of a number of issues that have been fomenting for quite some time in this area of women's worth in society. I certainly cannot say that the navy alone is culpable. I think every service has either its incipient "Tail Hooks" or something that would be similar to it. We all have our moments. And we all as services know that we have had incidents that might not have been properly handled. But to me, it's just an expression of the growing insistence on the part of women and society at large in all institutions, in all professions, who are going into areas where they have not been a visible presence, asking for their day in the sun also and their equal opportunity to excel. I think we're beginning to see now as we have more of this there's going to be some resistance to their economic intrusion, to the fact that women will be taking promotions away from men in both the officer and enlisted ranks as they progress through their careers, and I think we'll begin to see more examples of bizarre behavior that have to be dealt with by the leadership.

MS. WOODRUFF: Just quickly, do you think this is politics, General Jones, or is this an outgrowth of the kind of things General Foote was describing?

GENERAL JONES: I think it's probably a little bit of both. And I would disagree with General Foote on the business of women taking promotions away from men. I would like to feel that as we develop our programs, and as we have developed them, that the women and the men are competing on their merit. And, in fact, our data indicates that the women are competing very well on their merit, being promoted faster in many cases than are their men counterparts.

MS. WOODRUFF: But women, of course, are competing for positions they could not in the past compete for, so there is --

GENERAL JONES: In the army they are competing for combat support and combat service support positions that haven't always been open for them.

GENERAL FOOTE: I agree 100 percent with what he said, but my point is there is a perception on the part of some men. And men have told me in the past that I took away schooling and promotion opportunities from them by my own career, that there is a perception on the part of some that the women are the ones who are the culprits, taking away their opportunity. And that's entirely false. General Jones is exactly right.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, we'll have to leave it at that. I want to thank you all for being with us. Thank you very much. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Still ahead on the NewsHour, economist John Kenneth Galbraith and essayist Jack Perkins on gardening. CONVERSATION

MR. MacNeil: Next tonight, the second in a series of occasional conversations with people who've been thinking and writing recently about the United States and its position in the new world economic order. That position was underscored by today's White House meeting between President Bush and Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miazowa. The President said the meeting was about creating jobs for Americans by allowing more U.S. exports to Japan. Tonight we get the views of John Kenneth Galbraith, professor of economics emeritus at Harvard University, theorist, social critic, and adviser to policy makers throughout the post war period. Earlier this week, I spoke with Galbraith about his latest book, "The Culture of Contentment." Prof. Galbraith, thank you for joining us. Could you just restate briefly your thesis of "The Culture of Contentment."

PROF. GALBRAITH: Well, you know, I'm a professor and I can expand any idea to 55 minutes, but contracting it, essentially I am arguing that where once we had a few fortunate people who were very contented with their position and looked upon their position as distilled virtue, now we have something close to a majority of those who vote who are in that happy, in that contented position, and they have come to dominate our politics in these recent times so that -- and the Democrats have imitated the Republicans in the search for that clientele, that voting support, and so a very large, over half of our population doesn't vote, is left outside. And this in turn means that the claims of our cities, the claims of our central cities, which are at third world levels, the claims of our schools, the claims for people who desperately need welfare support -- we just can't conceal that -- the claims of action against the recession, all get bypassed, because they're not in the interest of what I call the "contented majority." How's that for a summary?

MR. MacNeil: Having read the book, that's pretty good. How is the culture of contentment responsible, or to what extent is it responsible for the present economic situation in this country, would you say?

PROF. GALBRAITH: Oh, there's no question about that. If we weren't contented, we would have had a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, a strong action against the recession. We would have employed people building the infrastructure, the roads, the bridges, the hospitals, all the things that have gone to pieces, gone down hill. And we would have had, of course, a much stronger position on interest rates. People who are comfortable like high interest rates. That's the rauntiere class. And we would have had strong support to states and localities which are all struggling with the problems of their budgets and cutting their budgets and adding to the depth of the recession by the alarm they create.

MS. WOODRUFF: Did the culture of contentment create the recession, or help to create the recession?

PROF. GALBRAITH: No question about that. We had years of the '80s when we had a wild speculation and mergers and acquisitions. We loaded our corporations with debt. We had a great flow of income from the poor to the very rich, income that you cannot reliably count on being spent. And we had a general cutback on our public services, including our support to the inner cities, which I regard as being the worst problem that we have.

MR. MacNeil: Let's look at the outside world. How has the culture of contentment, as you call it, affected the U.S. position in the new world order, as Mr. Bush calls it?

PROF. GALBRAITH: Well,the counterpart of the big federal deficit and our unwillingness of the majority to respond with higher taxes because expenditures, except for defense perhaps, could not be cut, they affect -- the counterpart of that was our big trade deficit. so we passed in this, in the decade of the '80s, from being the world's largest creditor to being the world's largest debtor. And so now when something comes up like the Gulf War, we have to go around begging for help, which is rather, isn't the source of prestige and power that we had 10 years ago. And this can only be related, as I say, to the 1980s, and to the policies of that unfortunate period.

MR. MacNeil: Some who disagree with you, politically or theoretically, would say that with the --

PROF. GALBRAITH: I don't countenance disagreement, as you know.

MR. MacNeil: -- would say that the enormous size and weight of the American military presence and the sheer size of the American economy, even when depressed, as it is now, still gives this country unique prestige and influence in the world.

PROF. GALBRAITH: Well, there's -- people salvage the best view from the situation. There's no question that the United States is still the largest economic force in the world, even with the severe competition that we now face from Japan and from Germany. I don't doubt that for a moment. It is simply that I don't countenance also the fact that we are losing our position relative to what it was in the past, and that we're suffering intense domestic problems.

MR. MacNeil: What should the United States be doing to maintain world leadership?

PROF. GALBRAITH: Well, I would get our own house in order. I would have a strong attack on the recession along the lines that I have mentioned. I would move to increase tax revenues on the upper income brackets, including maybe even yours. I can see how sad that makes you. And I would move very large substantial resources for the military, including these exotic weapons, which are built not with the idea that they will ever be used, over into the support of our cities, the support of our states, and also the infrastructure development that I mentioned, and then a very orthodox point, I would have much lower interest rates. Our interest rates are still too high.

MR. MacNeil: Still too high, even after --

PROF. GALBRAITH: Still to high.

MR. MacNeil: What will happen to the U.S. position of competitiveness in the global economy if the country remains, as you see it, in the grip of this culture of contentment and unwilling politically to do the things you think should be done?

PROF. GALBRAITH: Well, we have already seen that. We have already lost a relative competitive position to Japan and to Germany, and one of the reasons, of course, is that we've had this enormous military budget which has sucked a lot of our engineering talent and maybe as much as a third of our scientific and engineering talent, into relatively sterile military development where the Germans and the Japanese have had that talent, those resources, for their civilian economy. Also, there's a deeper factor which we should always have in mind. We ended the war with a sense of our enormous success, World War II. The Germans and the Japanese ended the war with a sense of defeat and a sense of determination and a sense of high aspiration. This has certainly been a psychological factor that has weakened us. But I would see as the major factor strong support to our educational system which at university level is still the best, but still it is very bad and getting worse at state and local level. We restore the prestige of the teacher in the community, which is a matter of pay. There should be no ducking that. We hear a lot of talk about the administrative structure of our schools. And no doubt it can be improved, but there's nothing that could be done without more money; and then a strong program of worker training for the unemployed, a strong program of drug rehabilitation, so we bring back into the society those people who are lost, and, again, this is something that can only be accomplished -- we mustn't avoid it for a moment -- it's not going to be accomplished by enterprise zones. It's not going to be accomplished even by prayer. It is only going to be accomplished by strong, affirmative government action. And the hope is -- one's hope is that the promise of that action will be bring the people who need that support, need that effort, back into the political process. It's a terrible thing, you know, that half of our people don't think it worthwhile to vote. That's a story in itself on the nature of our government process.

MR. MacNeil: The end of your book you are not hopeful for change. You predict what you call more "stasis" and an economic performance that is sadly deficient and erratic. Now, since you finished the book and published it a few months ago, we've had a number of things happen in this country. We've had the Los Angeles riots. One of the things you say might change things is if the underclass rises up. We've had a considerable evidence of people being discontent with the present political system, at least in the polls. Are you now more hopeful, a few months after you published the book, then you were --

PROF. GALBRAITH: No, I'm --

MR. MacNeil: -- that it's going to change?

PROF. GALBRAITH: I must say I'm not. It's very hard to write a book like this and not say, well, I have to have a happy ending, but honesty does have its controlling force. And I'm not terribly optimistic. I think that there's real danger that we have any more eruptions as in Los Angeles, that the answer will be not to correct the conditions which lead to that despair, lead to that violence, but to say, well, we'll improve our police forces and we'll have the National Guard standing by and we'll have a little more facilities for confining people, and sort of bury our heads.

MR. MacNeil: Well, if you're right to be pessimistic about it, 10 years from now, where is the United States as a world power?

PROF. GALBRAITH: Well, certainly as a world power we will have continued to diminish and I would rather picture the problem than I would say, well, as the result of reading Galbraith, wonderful as that is, everybody is going to respond and do better.

MR. MacNeil: You said in the book that communism, which we've been all gratified to see collapse, might have been saved by a timely injection of a little capitalism, namely in goods and services, maybe in agriculture. And you say, "The same is now true of modern capitalism."

PROF. GALBRAITH: No. I didn't go quite that far.

MR. MacNeil: I was quoting your words.

PROF. GALBRAITH: This system could not see its faults, could not see the extraordinary faults that it had in agriculture, food production, and particularly in a great range of consumers groups. It was a system that building basic industry and creating an enormous war machine was quite effective. But the weaknesses could not be seen by those who were involved and what I do say is that this should be a lesson, that we have weaknesses that we should see, and I hope we might see, in spite of my pessimism.

MR. MacNeil: Prof. Galbraith, thank you for joining us.

PROF. GALBRAITH: It's a great pleasure being here. ESSAY - GARDEN OF EDEN

MS. WOODRUFF: Finally tonight, essayist Jack Perkins has some thoughts about a favorite summer pastime, gardening.

JACK PERKINS: The figures are astonishing, but seeing them in National Geographic, don't we have to believe that fully 80 percent of American households claim their favorite outdoor leisure activity is gardening, combining lawns and gardens that Americans spend $20 billion a year, and that figure grows 10 percent each year. Americans spend more on gardens than on pizza. This is the time, especially in Maine. This is the crucial time, because a down East gardener is judged by the dinner he will serve on the 4th of July. Salmon, of course, that's part of the tradition, but the rest of the tradition is that with the salmon, he should be able to serve peas fresh from his garden. His peas have to be ready by then. Gardening is, you see, a competitive sport. Whose peas will be ready by the Fourth? John Sweet's will be. Whose tomatoes will ripen first? By the end of the season, who will be able to brag the biggest squash, the most potatoes? The gardener, like it or not, competes against other gardeners. And he competes -- and this is a life or death competition -- against all those nameless, faceless creepers and crawlers who furtively can wipe him out, and the bigger critters, the deer, and racoon. In the war against them, gardeners array a mighty arsenal of swinging pie pans, electric fences, non-electric fences. People used to string small bars of Ivory Soap around their gardens around here, believing that they would deter deer. State government in flusher times used to distribute the soap. But like most things, it didn't work. That's one lesson you learn gardening. And learning is one reason to garden. Meet the best gardener I know, Norm Shaw, has a home out on Long Pond. he has not only learned gardening, but I think he has learned from gardening, learned for one thing that the biblical admonition what you sow is what you shall reap is only true if in the meanwhile you sedulously root out every invading weed you don't want to reap. And when time comes, you must thin out the weaker plants so the strong can remain sound, in all, have a sharp eye and exercise prudent control. Good lessons, which Norm Shaw takes with him into another part of his life, where Norman P. Shaw runs the local savings & loan, small place, passbooks still written by hand. In an age of faltering or failing S&L's, especially in New England, Norm Shaw's S&L is singularly sound. I like to think it's because the boss has that sharp gardener's eye and wisely weeds and thins, so that his crops may flourish. There are other reasons to garden, though some aren't what they seem. To save money? Let's be honest. Most gardeners spend at least as much growing our gardens as we would buying the produce. To have better food? In some items it makes little difference. Beets are pretty much beets. But others, you can't buy a tomato in stores anymore. Those red rocks stores sell surely aren't tomatoes. Tomatoes shouldn't crunch. But a tomato, when finally it is sweet and warm from the garden, ah, heavenly. The real reason to garden is to worship. For the true gardener, the planting is sacramental, a way of honoring the miracle of life, and at the same time marveling at the human's even limited ability to influence that miracle. Gardening is a way of feeling both God blessed and God liked. Later, when cut worms and aphids invade and wantonly chomp, then will come the frustrations. But early, with fingers in furrows, there is tactile and psychic balm. In the end, should a garden produce nothing else, it will have yielded a summer's plenitude of peace. I'm Jack Perkins. RECAP

MS. WOODRUFF: Again, the main story of this Wednesday, more U.N. aid reached the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo. President Bush said U.S. forces off the Yugoslav Coast would not be used at this point. That's the NewsHour for tonight. I'm Judy Woodruff. Thank you and good night.