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Transcribed the minds of men situations of a distance. In. Each of us has undeveloped unrealized capacities for effective living they await our true understanding of the mental and emotional forces at work within US forces which we share with the minds of men everywhere. It is toward a clearer picture of what goes on in our minds and our emotions that we work in these programs. Not that picture as it appears on the broad canvas of all human kind. But as it is revealed in the small dimensions of every day in the lives of much. Pain.
Every time I see tech gillion I feel well funny because we ought to be close friends. We grew up next door to each other. Everything that ever happened to either family. The other one was an on Gill. We called him Gill van Gill peek through the crepe myrtle at my first date and every raúl he ever had with his family floated right in our west windows and there never was any of that mutual antipathy you hear so much about. I suppose if anything we like each other but we're not close. I guess nobody really is very close to gillion. There's something about him that won't let you be even when he's being friendly and cordial and glad to see me. SCHMICH McDonough Hello. What are you doing here. I brought the twins down for a visit with my family. No I mean here. Back in the corner at the noisiest party of the year. This is no way
to celebrate Brit Duggan's deliverance from the minions of the Lord. Hi can I ask you the same question your attorney you ought to be out there taking bows. I'm hiding from a couple of females class to class too. Is that the unappealing class. They're all unappealing lamb. Class one. Those who have what they want are too smug to be appealing class to those who don't have what they want and are too frenzied to be appealing. Class 3 those who don't want what they have and are too bitter to be appealing. I guess that puts me in class one. I don't think of you as a female. Oh. Did you get teased that long ago. I'm sorry I didn't know you've been pretty busy from all I hear. With the trial and speaking of the trial I understand you did yourself proud. I guess that's a matter of opinion. You said an innocent man free. In my book marriage there aren't any innocent men or guilty ones either. There are just case one is lucky enough to have the foresight in case
the heart attack ended up in them. Like me likely lucky break dug in and out right. It figures read it figure or it figures don't make a difference if you did what they said you did. You didn't do what they said you did. If you got a girl on your side you got it made. I don't believe you don't believe what you believe but give me a good lawyer. I don't believe tech would defend a man he thought was guilty. A man he knew broke the lesson the that day. This means girl she's great fun. You know you're pretty funny not funny just confused. What's the law me when you come right down to it it's what those twelve good folks and drew there in the jury box think it is an attack giving them tells them what. Think it is. I still don't believe it a sweet heart trouble with you is. You man enough to drink to know what you believe.
So I'm telling you Ted don't care don't care. It just gives him another chance to get up there and thumb his nose at whoever said you couldn't do something if you wanted to. That's all he cares just Lumines knows you sweetheart. Terry. Radio. Television the University of Texas is presents the minds of many. A series of explorations into effective living. Written by the Durham twins and directed by Archie Norris. These programs are prepared with the assistance and counsel of the Hogg foundation for Mental Hygiene. And produced under a special grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. Their aim. A keener understanding of a force is universally a work and the minds of men.
Don't care don't care. It just gives him another chance to get out there and he knows that whoever said you could do something if you wanted to. That's all he cares just means no tax sweetheart who. Didn't have to tell me I knew I'd seen that streak any more through our growing up years when nothing but a couple of sycamore trees and some yard chairs stood between what happened at our house and what happened at his I guess brick Duggins phrase was as good as any tack had always been thumbing his nose at anything that offered to hold him or confine him or make him go the way somebody else thought he ought to go the way everybody else went. Even before he was technicality gillion even when he was just Gilgan a whiny little piece of humanity beginning to find out how far his legs would carry him just let him go. Myrtle no use trying to hold him or catch him if he goes around the house declare
I never saw anything like that for he's some scooter All right. No use trying to pin him up either. You know what he did yesterday. He pulled five bars out of his playpen just pulled him right out with and sitting there laughing and egging him on like a boy with some some get up and go to get up and go try to get the housework done. Molly's getting up and going. Well one thing sure he's not going to wind up tied to his mamma's apron strings. We don't have to worry about that now with the kind of spunk that boys got. No sorry. You couldn't hold Gail and you couldn't pin him up and if you said frog he wasn't going to jump. He was going to vote but there were a lot of years and a lot of words and a lot of worries poured into facing up to that. Sit down Emma sit down and cool off. There's some lemonade there on the
table. No thanks. I just ran over to ask me if she'd seen anything of Gail since school. No ma'am I haven't. Not even during school. I didn't see him at all today. Goodness I hope he was there once or twice lately he's just walked out after a witness to. It seems like him and Gail have been daggers drawn ever since you all went over to High School Gail says Mr. Davidge to Bolasie always ordering people around the principal you have got to see things go right. Gil and his daddy and me we've been having him round and round about that job of his. I wish Gairloch never got into this job thing. I don't know now am I kind of admire a boy that would get out and earn his own spend money. If it was me just spending money like the rest do. But this I don't know if I'll tell you or not but. Well he makes seventy dollars a week. Down there and two dollars a week. That's good. That's unbelievable.
I know men with families that don't make money is she. That's what puts such a different light on it it's just he's financially independent might say and that's not healthy. It's not normal a boy that age long as you got there may keep so to speak you've got self-control. But this is now getting out of the car with China. I can't wait. Dad will be home pretty soon. Supper's nearly ready. I don't want to stop. I'll see you again. Don't you go running off. Can you hear me OK. OK hold tight. I just don't know. What is it mom. I got to get away from here. What is this rush. What's so important you can't even stay home to supper. It's just something kind of something. Well it's it's a car mom. A car. I'm buying a car. Charlie knows where there's one that there's a real good deal. I don't care for Charlie. No you are not buying any car Gail gillion Yes I am
Mom. We'll just see what your daddy has to say about this. He hasn't got anything to say about it. Just a minute Mr. Cafferty. He's got a good deal to say about that. It's my money. I'll spend it how I please don't understand it you know I don't understand you one bit. Your daddy what we you. We've always tried to look out for you the best way we knew how what next should do this way. What way. The way you do me I'm not doing anybody any way. I just don't want somebody always saying to me you can you can't you will you won't. That's why I went out and got this job. That's why I work from 3 to 7:30 every morning of the world so I can have my own money. So I will have to come running for everything I need or want. So I can tell myself what I can do and can't do and will and won't I want a car mom and I'm going to have a car. I've got the money that says I can have a car. And anybody that doesn't like it can lump
it. Gil got his car and in it he put more distance between himself and his family and they had ever been before but there wasn't much they could do about it or did do about it anyway. And we all tried to reassure them the best way we could. Oh he's just headstrong. Ama not while like the best boy are trouble maker like Willis Sims. He just headstrong. I do hate myself. He's a good boy. Canzone we always try to teach him right from wrong. I think he's just more mature than most of the boys so he's got good business sense. Look at all the ways he thought up for the high school to make money and he is president of the student council. If only we could just get next to him and somehow get to be my own son. He's the hardest boy to get close to. Well I feel like I know me
here better than I know him. Well boys especially boys like you feel like that. They just like to go their own way. Gill went his own way but it was an exciting and colorful way and it left sparks of admiration behind him in some quarters. One might be. Chofetz so to please Rosing with chocolate cream. On. Hand see you in here later. No I guess not. I've been pretty busy. I noticed you in here one day with a bunch of kids in the booth. One of them was that good one. I guess maybe it was. It could have been what like anyone really I mean. Oh I don't know. He's smart energetic and original oh he's doing some crazy kind of thing. Nobody else ever thought I guess you'd say he's unusual.
Unusual. That's a good way to put it. He's good looking too. In an unusual kind of way don't you think he's good looking. Oh thanks. For. This. In. That. Boy's. Got. Something. I think he. Really Got Something. Does he with anyway. Do you know I don't. Well. Right now nobody in particular nobody in particular huh. Well. You know something. I'd like to change that. Yes sir I sure would like to change that. She did change it. The first thing we knew Gil was going with somebody in particular and somebody in particular was Rose. What do you want to go with a girl with a name like that for. What's wrong with lots of nice people named Rosie. She and one of them. Now how do you know you don't even
know her. I've seen her and I know her family. Their pig Trekky everyone and I'm just plain pig trash so what people aren't always like their family. That kind is I hear them talk you'd hear to if you listen. Your mother's right son. It doesn't do you any good with the people in this town to be seen with a girl like this Rosie. The people in this town aren't going to tell me who to go. No but your family is this time Gail your mother and me we are putting our foot down. You are not to see this girl anymore. Do you understand. You are not to see her or go out with her or have anything whatsoever to do with her. You hear me Gail and that's final. So you married her. It didn't last long. Nobody expected it to. So nobody asked any questions. I guess we just took it for granted that a marriage based on a thumb of the nose isn't very permanent Rosen of course didn't know what it was
based on so she had her own explanation. I got it in exchange for a grilled cheese sandwich and a tall lime. Anything else made no. I guess that's all Rosie-Ann. Seems like old times doesn't it. You home for the holidays. Like everybody else. Boy have they been pouring in. How about go home yet. No I don't think his mother said he's not coming home this Christmas. He's staying at school to study or something is not like him not even come home for Christmas. That bar is going to keep about a mile between him and everybody else and it's the last thing he does will he. I understand he's taking this law school work pretty seriously. Oh sure honey he's always going to be taken something pretty seriously except people except the people that want to take him seriously. You know something means he's about the hardest person to get close to on every
song and the more you try the more he pulls back. The trouble with Daily's he holds your arms length. Oh I don't mean really pushes you are anything like I mean down inside him he holds an arm's length. Gosh even when you're making Lumley's Rosen I know you want your grilled cheese and proline you could starve to death while I stand here yakking but I'll tell you something me. There's something eaten on that boy. I don't know if it always was or somebody heard him once and he never got over it could be the one or I suppose or maybe it was both. Take your choice. Me. I wouldn't know. Hey Sam right one squeeze one drop me. I wouldn't know either. Rosie might have had a point. She put her finger on the one thing we all knew about Gail. If we ever stopped to think about it that arm's
length thing probably he's just always been like that because I don't remember his ever being fond enough of anybody to get very close close enough to be heard anyway. Oh there was one little girl move to town when we were in the ninth grade. Mary Lou no Mary Lee. That was it. Mary Lee graves little blonde character with big eyes had more of nature's gifts than most of us had at that age. He squired her around for a while took her to a few school dances. Gosh you look pretty tonight Mary Lee. Thank you. I guess that's no news to you I guess lots of boys tell you you're pretty. Oh Gil. Well don't they. As some of them do like Bob Arnold. I guess that's what he was telling you tonight on the balcony. Well was it was it was it was that what Bob Arnold was telling it or not out there on the balcony. Look D.L. I've got to go when my daddy doesn't like it if I sit out if you
stay out on the balcony with Bhawana for half an hour you can stay in the car with me for a few minutes. No really. I've got to go. You've answered my question. Look at me Mary Lee. Don't get all you're mashing the ruffles on my groin. Who cares about them all right. You're hurting my arm. All right. I'm sorry. But you've got to tell me what was Bob Arnold saying I don't remember. Anyway I don't have to tell you what everybody says it talks to me. Lots of boys talk to me too many of them. And you smile at all of them just the same way. I'm just being friendly. People don't like you if you're not friendly. You don't have to be so friendly they eat you up. I saw the way Bob Arnot was looking at you. I'm not going to have people looking at you that way. You're not going to have. What do you mean you're not going to have Mary Lee. Do you like me. Well yes I like specially Do you like me especially. Why do you want to know. Because.
Well listen mainly I never told this to anybody else. I never felt this way about anybody else. You're wonderful Mary Lee. I never knew there was anything like you. I can't look at you if I can't be with you enough. I've got to go in. No please. I just want to put my arms around you once. Just told you let me out of here. Go Gilliatt. I won't hurt you Mary. I won't kiss you. I won't even make your ruffles. I'll let you go in. If you'll just say it say that you're my girl but you're not going to be friendly with Bob Arnold or Charlie Haney or any of them. No say it Mary Lee you've got to say it. I don't have to. I don't have to say it. You do before you get out of this car. No I don't and I'll scream for my daddy if you don't get me out. But I will say something. Something I wouldn't have said if you hadn't acted like this. I'm not your girl anybody would be crazy to be your girl and let you think you hold her hand and foot couldn't talk couldn't smile couldn't even speak to anybody else. You wanna
know what Bob Arnold said to me on the balcony did I. All right I'll tell you if you want to know so bad. He asked me to go steady with him. How do you like that. He asked me to go and I am I'm going right in my house this minute and funnymen told him so I did for you. Go Gilliard. I hope I never lay eyes on you again as long as I have. One. Yes now that I remember there was Mary. Great. But she moved away when we were in the tent. And besides. Gil just rushed her for a little while and then they didn't go together anymore. I don't know what ever happened to that. Me I. Mean.
I know to discuss rebellion here are Dr. Robert L.. Sutherland director of the Hogg foundation for mental hygiene and Dr. Alfred H.M. Santonio psychiatrist and president of the board of directors community guidance center. Bear County. Dr. Hill how loud is is growing up. Ordinarily this difficult is Gil an example of how it takes place as a psychiatrist to observe the process. We certainly have to accept as one example of how it takes place we see him as a mature man chronologically functioning adult life therefore he's grown up by the usual standards in Jill's case however he wanted to act like a grown up man from the very beginning. How do you account for that sudden desire for independence. And in fact this great desire for rebellion against authority it's difficult to be certain not knowing the very early formative years of his life. We may speculate that the usual
growing up experience of a combination of secure or dependent relations combined with experimental independence with good home backing failed to occur and when ordinarily when it fails to occur the fault lies with the early necessarily dependent biological relationship of the baby. Now are you saying you believe in the infant psychology or even the six year psychology that everything is fixed by that time. Does growing up stop at birth or at two years or six years. I believe growing up continues too many years even into the 40s and 50s and many of us I do believe however that the earlier beliefs of psychiatrists that are important for 25 years number through sex is likely so all
present day thinking Harbor recognizes that some significant changes in personality can occur through our life. It is not fixed at the age of six which gives us all hope for necessary changes. And in fact validates psychiatric treatment. Well and Gail's case R-TX case as we knew him later. Do you think that Merlene might have had some or did have some influence on him after this Mystikal age of six. I think Marelli and girl's case could have had a very beneficial effect. Instead he almost assaulted her with his possessive demand which frightened her. And we see that picture of a teenage girl almost frantically running to Charlie Arnold who offered a giving sharing relationship rather than possessing relational now while was also overly possessive Gill was overly possessive I think because in Merilee he
saw the possibility of recovering a one time satisfying dependent relationship to his mother at the very early infantile level. And with that opportunity to recapture his only secure relationship he ran headlong toward it. Well it doesn't help us understand why later on he referred to all females as class two citizens. I think that that accounts for his not accepting a female relationship as being a desirable one in any way and finding something wrong with all three classes as he outlined them to me. He held other people away from himself. Did he also hold himself away from himself what kind of distance within was developed and given the distance was in this poor unhappy man. Is that frightening. Destines in the absence of the
usual ingredients of happiness what are they. In order to be happy an individual needs have a secure love relationship appropriate to his chronological or developmental age he needs to have a feeling of acceptance by his fellows. He needs to feel that he is adding to creation in some way for most of us a feeling of faith is necessary for all these lacking in this unfortunate adult tack this feeling of faith almost suggests a religion. Do you think that has a place in the growing up process. It certainly has a place in the life man. Throughout history has needed a belief beyond him because of his own weakness and his own transience day on earth. I wonder if parents also have emotional need to these days. We hear so much talk about rearing children in the right way so they will be dependent
to a minor degree only and independent not to an excessive degree. But what about the parents do children have any obligation to them do they have any emotional needs. Parents certainly have the most going needs because one of the properties of maturity is using energy to give and give them in maturity means being generous means propagation means creating and satisfying that need to give to children. One facet of the emotional need of parents with respect to children continuing respect continuing love consideration are needed by parents. Well now let's sum up by asking you what really do you mean is the difference between wholesome independence and rebellion or rugged individualism. It's a matter of degree. On the one hand and along with the absence
on the other and interdependent relationship between individuals in the family constellation the absence of brotherly love the absence of close friendship without which one does not have balance and must constantly over expand in an attempt to fill that distance with then what hope does Gil have. Is there a chance that in his unhappy state he can sometime find happiness. Yes as a matter of fact paradoxically less such as an ulcer may cause him to stop and to seek help and seeking help he will have to accept a dependent relationship. In so doing he may recapture the experience of safety and a dependent relationship and out of that may be able
to develop a love relationship which can fill the great void in his experience long distance within one of a series of explorations into effective living titled the minds of men. A presentation of Radio-TV at the University of Texas taking part in the discussion in today's broadcast where Dr. Robert Sokolow director of the Hogg foundation for mental hygiene and Dr Alfred H. Hill San Antonio psychiatrist I'm president of the board of directors community garden center. I'll bear accounting. These programs were prepared for broadcast under the supervision of Robert F. shrinking special music by Eleanor Payne. John McCoy was heard as Gil Gilliam Virginia Lockhart as Mitch McConnell who tells the story. And speaking this program is distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. The.
Minds of men
The distance within
Producing Organization
University of Texas
KUT (Radio station : Austin, Tex.)
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
This program explores how a disruption of the necessary balance between dependence and independence can mentally isolate someone from others around them.
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A series of explorations into effective living, combining dramatizations with commentary.
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Composer: Page, Frances Eleanor
Guest: Hill, Alfred H.
Interviewer: Sutherland, Robert L. (Robert Lee)
Producing Organization: University of Texas
Producing Organization: KUT (Radio station : Austin, Tex.)
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 58-5-7 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:29:14
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Chicago: “Minds of men; The distance within,” 1958-01-01, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed December 6, 2021,
MLA: “Minds of men; The distance within.” 1958-01-01. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. December 6, 2021. <>.
APA: Minds of men; The distance within. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from