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Me Yes I would like to. I've never been in Washington before. Where can I yell. Well I would like to go. Where can I buy an army surplus double sleeping bag. Why don't you try that over there. Well I just took the first one I came to you know all well over there I'm in the secretary Oh here you are. Well right in the swim of it aren't you. I mean this over there. How about it. Well it's all right. Pardon me pardon me say pardon me. Well well what can I do for you. Well I'd like you to fill out the form. No because I just wanted to where you have to fill out the form first form s p e q 6 0 7 8 0 3 9 6 5 0. You'll find them on the table over there. Just fill it out you want to know you have to fill out the form first. S P E Q 6 0 7 8 0 3 9 6 5 0 SBT was 6 0 7 8 0 3 9 6 5 is entirely different. S
P E Q 6 7 0 0 8 0 0 7. S P E Q 6 0 7 6 p p q S P E Q 6 old s peak fuel 6 7 0 0 0. What do I have to do fill it out for you I don't know what you have to do don't ask me what your job is. All right I'll fill it out you have one all the time. Yes I had one all the time. Name an address. RICHARD ROWE give me that form I'll fill it out all right. I don't know why people can't fill out the forms first. Take my good time for argument well I'm about a fellow at me. What's it mean here don't glam packing. Exactly what it says. You want to sell glam packing you have to fill out the bar I don't want to sell grand packing all I want if you don't want to sell glam packing. Why did you come here this is you get a steamed lamb packing section. All I want is the buy you don't buy anything that steams it if you have a steam plant section.
Well I don't get very decent treatment at steam fittings unit any steam plant packing section shall resound. Don't think you can come in here and cause trouble like this while cause trouble all right. If a certain big mouth slobbered listen to my simple question instead of shouting about forms I wouldn't have any trouble I'm going to register a complaint about you Mr. register I will rule if I can find the right unit and section for complaint. Good for you what do you mean good for me. I mean that guy has been transferred through every section from you bones to hex agonal not to wagon box braces he's just playing. Well I'll get his wagon box fixed for good. Be careful when you do. He can make trouble not for me. In a way Mr O is quite correct. We live under a government of law. One may speak one's mind forcefully though an official or employee of the United States government high or low without fear of the United States Marines a Navy Army or Air Force
or the US Marshal even without fear of having his taxes raised. The destructive power of the United States government from battleships to the power to tax is regulated by law and procedure. It's been that way since the revolution. Yes RICHARD ROWE is right. We live under a government of law. However the problem is that RICHARD ROWE has a sensitive job in the defense industry. True every man his doing a series of radio programs about the principles of justice. To every man his due is produced by radio station WAGA at the University of Wisconsin under a grant from the National Educational
Television Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. Know sticks and stones. I am three years after the Revolutionary War ended after the peace was signed. Farmers in western Massachusetts led by Daniel Shays turned to armed rebellion for addressing serious grievance. They attack the courts throw out the judges and lawyers and quoted scripture in support of their cause. It was a frightening thing in a three year old nation. He would talk my good broke Washington to Henry Lee. You talk my good sir. Employing influence to appease these present tumults in Massachusetts. I know not where that influence is to be found. If attainable that it would be a proper remedy for the disorders influences not government. Washington was no political philosopher. He was a practical man of action
a man with deep convictions and his convictions were anchored to the Keystone upon which every structure of free government must be built. Influence is not government. Personal power is not law. Fear of arbitrary power is not decent order in all free states the power of government is controlled. It's predictable it's not applied by personal caprice. In all free nations the power of government is clamped and locked around the rails of procedure. Oh. Fellows the Queen of Hearts in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland wanted me. No one in these United States gets very far today shouting like that. Centuries of experience of established procedures which regulate the headsman's ax the hangman's noose and the executioners electric chair and the uses of prisons. Similarly traditions laws and procedures regulate the sort of the military in this country the obvious the crude and
violent forms of government power are locked tight to a procedure as is the more subtle but very destructive power of taxation. But history among other things is a record of new discoveries new ideas new techniques new doors open Pandora always has another box with a loose leaf. Be careful of that guy. He can make trouble. Not for me he can't. Mr O is quite mistaken. There was a time when a man could talk like that. Philosopher put it this way. There was a time when many Americans were in a position in which a man could lean his acts up against the rail fence roll up his sleeves and tell anyone in the world you go to hell. But those days are gone altogether. The Corp man must often drive the car wear the clothes speak the language and see the world as directed by the corporation. And if his wife is an unfortunate mistake the corporation will often rearrange her manners or dress
or speech to make her a fitting partner of the body corporate. Few Americans today can set their eyes and minds to match the natural contours of our mountains corporation then bus drivers and graduate students in American universities must learn the handshake and the language. Join up. Play ball. Get with it. Become a part of an institution or organization to match mountain capricious thought crazy as the angles in a rail fence and just as obsolete. The individual who matches a mountain may happily conformed to the Graham pattern of nature but not at all to the machine cut patterns of an organizational chart. Oh the argument runs too far. There is a truth in it. We are interrelated interlocked interdependent to an astonishing degree and that fact is highly relevant to the powers exercised by the governments of these United States.
You wrote. Yes. Oh oh it's you from Steam fittings unit A. That's right. You're the guy that's going to get me in trouble right. Well he you and all hell buddy you are going to be in trouble. I just might drop some hints that will get you a security check and investigation. Well there isn't anything to investigate me about. Besides they did that before I got my job. Well buddy they can do it again you know it just could be that I'll get your job if you get me just a few hands I might. Yes investigated. Oh no oh no. And then he stuck a feather in his cap and called it macaroni he did and he did a Richard Roe did take him down to the psychiatrist and see if he can be reorganized and if he won't play ball or fire em Yes sir. Well I won't have any nuts like that are ruining the image of this organization.
November 11th 1917 Petrograd formerly St. Petersburg Leningrad Russian procedures related to the main force of the Russian government the army and the Navy break the Bolsheviks contest with the government of for control of military force. The Bolsheviks win force in Russia jumps the rails. It's still off a new crime is invented called socially dangerous conduct. Yeah I know. The handshake they all get with it become a part of the organization. It's the law comrade. Free men around the world are faced by a monster regimented societies in Russia and China. They're equipped with huge armies and advanced rocketry. We've met this external threat with our own military might but our enemy is a new kind of enemy. He's had long experience and possesses advanced skills in the arts of espionage and sabotage
and has great experience in organizing subversive forces within established States and he has great skill in the arts of political propaganda. He presents a hidden internal threat. We've met the external threat by the development of established patterns and processes. But in protecting ourselves from the threat within we've developed in new directions. No sir I will not talk to you about it. Come on now row. I'm a doctor I'm supposed to help people that's my business. If you're a doctor you ought not to talk about a business. It ought to be a profession. You have to profess it. Look row your boss asked being to talk to you because of that madcap business with a pony in the macaroni. Besides you were quite drunk. There has to be a reason. Let's talk it out. Look you you just keep out of my head. It's mine. I'll keep my head. I'm not going to let you reorganize it to fit someone else. I'll keep my head Mian Sir Walter Raleigh. I don't follow you. Don't try. All I did was try to buy a double sleeping
bag and then I got a little rough with this guy and he said he was going to have me checked or something doubles sleeping bag. Now I'm getting somewhere oh oh long have you been interested in double sleeping bag. You ought to have your mind washed. I mean we know you know this goes a little farther than just your balls. You're on a sensitive job access to secret information. This drunkenness will probably go into your file. We certainly can't trust secret information or common drunks. Come back here and talk. I will not talk because I am I and will so remain. Goodbye. Knowing Raul I'm going to find that pony again. You have macaroni in my head out of. My head. Nail this you lost for want of issue was lost but won the battle was won the battle that.
Was the interpretation is capricious. But the point is clear. We live in the days of mass citizen armies which are dependent on full mobilization of the economic facilities of the country within our borders we must guard our water supplies our food supplies our machines factories railroads bridges and systems of communications. It's not enough to lock the war plans in a safe. It's not enough to check the loyalty of people doing super secret defense work. There are not a few but millions of jobs and positions in this country which cannot be filled by people who might betray the National Trust. To protect ourselves from the enemy within we must in a sense examine heads we must predict human behavior. Answer the question. What will this man do. Not the traditional Who
Dunnit What has he done of the courts since for many reasons psychiatry can't do the job. We turn to time tested methods of prediction the methods of intelligence the lowliest of all intelligence units the combat intelligence section of an infantry battalion may deal a times in old tin cans empty boxes empty bottles. The enemy food supply is important in estimating future direction. Ideally it acts as a sort of frontline vacuum cleaner sucking up all sorts of information for analysis and evaluation. Today is scrap of paper. May control tomorrow's battle. It's the job of any intelligence agency to gather all scraps of information for evaluation and analysis. It takes a vacuum cleaner to suck up enough information to answer the question What will a man do whether the subject is an enemy platoon
or a citizen of the United States. Yeah I Mrs. Rowe the xx Mrs. RICHARD ROWE if I could have rung that chicken's neck been laid me I'd have his head on the mantel piece right now. Ask she was sure he goes last year when they went to coral mocks those he is whacked by. He must have because he had tendencies all kinds of tendencies you will name that tendency and I'll tell you he had it. It's a necessary intelligence activity collecting information all kinds from ex-wives enemies friends landlords janitors anyone who might have information which will help piece together a picture of Richard Rolle on which to base an estimate of his future behavior. And the question goes beyond the political attitudes and potential of RICHARD ROWE.
We can't afford to have key positions filled by alcoholics drug addicts persons subject to blackmail or halfwits. Well yes boss Dick you're valuable to us. We're going to have you on our pitch and boy we can kind of glossed over that spree of yours. You have done that before but boy the second time you were riding that pony and stuffing your head with spaghetti you were stone cold sober. That's going too far. No I tell you to go back and talk to that doctor again. I happen to be running the defense industry not a nut factory. How in the world you explain that spaghetti. It wasn't spaghetti it was macaroni. But in 1955 the Civil Service Commission had more than five million intelligence reports in its central security index. Not all of these were complete vacuum cleaning jobs but they represented a powerful collection of old wives tales comments of friends gossip of mothers in law and
persons who never paid up on a personal loan. The list has grown since 1955. Add to it the industrial security program military and state programs and the list becomes enormous. In fact in at least one city in the western part of this country the city police intelligence squad takes long range pictures of peace marchers and citizens attending hearings on some sensitive matters and maintains a hometown file. The reputations and livelihoods of millions of American citizens lie in the files of the governments of these United States down to the local level. Every civilized country recognizes in its laws that the destruction of character and reputation is similar to the destruction of life or limb and is equivalent to the destruction of property. The major religions recognize the destructive power of slander and gossip at
one time or another in the history of most countries. Plain old fashioned blackmail has been used as a highly effective political tool. Pandora has opened a new box. Our governments have a new power. It's not so crude as guns and electric chairs and prisons but almost as effective. It's certainly as destructive as the power to tax. It's new. There are no traditions for handling it. It's not locked to a well established procedure. Procedure varies from agency to agency from department to department from court decision to court decision from act of Congress to act of Congress from day to day. It has been argued that the refusal of a job or a firing from a government job is nothing more than a firing. But that argument is blind to the facts of our national life. They've started a security check on you for all your fired I could take your spree and I could take the pony in the macaroni and I can take communism. The government says
you're a communist. It does not they're just running a security check. That's what I said. You're a communist. Get it. I'm going wait a minute where you're going wrong. I'm going to get my pony and some macaroni and I can of beans and a canteen and an ax and some wages and sledges and and some truck to back and I'm going to the mountains to sweat rails and tomfoolery no one's going to hire a chemist or two. Even if they would hire a communist and Roe it won't help you to get a job if you have yellow calluses on your hands and your fingernails. It makes you look like an oddball which you are. Spaghetti and macaroni. Common gossip can be translated into a firing for security reasons. A discharge whether the firing concerns communism or simply a tendency to talk too much is often translated by the public into an official conviction
and there is no place in the organizational charts of are interlocked interrelated interdependent society for a man officially branded with a big Red Sea firing may well mean destruction. The procedures used are based generally on goodwill common sense and a sense of fair play. An administrator or a committee of administrators examines the old tin cans the empty boxes broken bottles and scraps of paper of a human life and reaches a decision. None of us would care to leave control of battleships and machine guns to the common sense and goodwill of their commanders. None of us would care to leave the application of jails and prisons and electric chairs to commonsense and goodwill procedures. Life liberty and property are guarded by procedures tested through centuries of experience. Government may not take life liberty or property without making every effort to reach the
truth. Government may take reputation after filtering gossip through what is assumed to be common sense and goodwill. Obviously security risks must be removed and obviously they must take their chances with the temper of the public. There is one proven very effective indispensable technique in use in our courts and in courts throughout the world which applies today. What will he do. Of intelligence as well as they. What did he do. Traditional criminal procedure. No other method known to man is so effective in separating truth from fiction. Gossip and malice from fact. The technique is confrontation and cross-examination cross-examination beats common sense all hollow. And it shuts the mouth of malice ahead of time. This technique is not employed in the administration of the
security files have been relatively few. Richard Rose because of the influence of common sense and goodwill and the influence of a sense of fair play. But personality is not law. Influence is not government. So George Washington one undeniably necessary response to the internal threat has been the collection of intelligence files about some American citizens. There is another undeniably a necessary response to the internal threat of communism. Oh yes Oh you oh yes sir. Well how in the world did you find me up here in the mountains. Oh yeah where is. Yeah look at this. Well all right. Oh no. A summons from a congressional investigating committee. Oh no. A very emotional subject but there are some cold
facts. Investigation is a necessary and time honored function of Congress investigation of Communist activity has been a necessary activity of Congress. Few people can deny a congressional investigating committees are arms of Congress. They act for Congress with the power of Congress. They are responsible to Congress and Congress is responsible for them. They are not the property of any one man or group. They are Congress. Neither house of Congress has established extensive or effective uniform procedures for its committees procedure varies from committee to committee but it is generally certain that an investigation must be related to a legitimate legislative purpose. The Founding Fathers deliberately divided the power of our government into three units legislative executive and judicial. As a safeguard. Congress and its committees may not legitimately practice law enforcement or punish offenders. Investigating committees can use the full power of our government to
subpoena witnesses. The full force of our government protects congressmen from libel and slander suits. Also protects witnesses before committees congressional investigating committees can ask their parents house to charge witnesses with contempt the charge is tried in regular courts committees do not convict of contempt so why the uproar. There is no uproar when Congress investigates invasions of the blue breasted Doodlebug from Lower California. People do not vote for or against doodlebugs nothing can be damaged but the Doodlebugs and doodlebugs are easily identifiable as doodlebugs. Besides they're bugs not citizens. But finding communists pro communists fellow travelers and dupes requires an examination of heads. A collection of intelligence files. It has been the announced purpose of some congressional investigators to expose Communists fellow travelers and
dupes. Some scholars claim that this is not a legitimate investigative purpose for Congress Other scholars say that it is the question is not settled but within the framework of exposure as a desirable aim of investigating committees. One question remains. Exposure of what. I mean it's just it is you know a steam plant hacking section. I know that he was the man I saw at the meeting of the Communist Party on January 7th 1937. That is malice a lie a tin can from an intelligence file. At the present time there are no procedural restrictions which can prevent a committee from exposing gossip and the contents of intelligence files as well as exposing genuine communists. In fact a common malicious gossip sitting in the witness chair of the committee of Congress is protected from suit by the United States government. Most committees will not permit cross-examination
of witnesses by those accused and sometimes will not permit a person accused to make a corrective statement. One need not ask whether or not committees have exposed gossip as well as communism. The point is that there is no procedural restriction which will effectively prevent it. In their legitimate pursuit of communism most of the committees of neglected to use the most effective and time tested of all tools for reaching the truth for separating gossip from fact cross-examination of the accuser by the accused or his counsel. If the committees have not used the contents of their intelligence files as punishment of the innocent as well as the guilty. It's because of the commonsense goodwill and sense of fair play of committee members not because of law and procedure. In 1952 a special committee of the American Bar Association concluded that there was a vital need for a code of fair procedure so that this area of our government like the rest of it would be subject to the rule of law. And the
committee made a few recommendations among which were witnesses should be given a clear idea as to exactly what is being investigated. They should have a right to counsel and the counsel should be permitted to give effective assistance they should have a chance to cross-examine opposing witnesses should be permitted to make statements. It was also recommended that the third person is defamed in the hearings should have the right to testify or file corrective statements and that the files of the committee be held confidential and that they be used only for proper committee purposes. This is not to imply that there ever has been a Richard role or that there ever will be a Richard Roe but it's a cold unemotional fact that the only procedural protection which stands between citizens and the intelligence files between citizens and the possible malicious gossip on the witness stand lies in the common sense the goodwill and the sense of fair
Series
To every man his due
Episode
Sticks and stones
Producing Organization
National Association of Educational Broadcasters
WHA (Radio station : Madison, Wis.)
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/500-rj48tx59
If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip/500-rj48tx59).
Description
Episode Description
Sticks and Stones: Loyalty Hearings and Congressional Investigations
Other Description
Dramatic-narrative series on principles of justice under the American system of law, particularly the rights of defendants.
Date
1961-10-16
Topics
Philosophy
Media type
Sound
Duration
00:30:28
Embed Code
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Credits
Advisor: Fellman, David, 1907-2003
Music Director: Voegeli, Don
Producing Organization: National Association of Educational Broadcasters
Producing Organization: WHA (Radio station : Madison, Wis.)
Production Manager: Schmidt, Karl
Writer: Carlson, Elizabeth
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 62-17-12 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:29:27
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Citations
Chicago: “To every man his due; Sticks and stones,” 1961-10-16, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed August 17, 2022, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-rj48tx59.
MLA: “To every man his due; Sticks and stones.” 1961-10-16. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. August 17, 2022. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-rj48tx59>.
APA: To every man his due; Sticks and stones. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-rj48tx59