A conversation with...; Rafael Kubelik, part two

Here again it was George thought not a moment ago. We touched on the business of recording. I've been curious to know because you've done quite a lot of recordings and some very excellent recordings many of which we have in the library and frequently it was on the air. I'd like to know if you really enjoy recording. Yes I do. You yes. You do use it sometimes even more satisfactory than a concept. Sometimes I could say I want to of course it depends what you are banking with I thought as I was in the days when I was here in Chicago to do it again a theme. But it does. Technically no damn thing didn't and music Gustav which understands the same way about you know what I've figured out music and so on and so we go about it now in the dirt you're going to forget and I'm ready and it is possible for me to play it to make a call it's a way to make a record. If I would do a concert practically you know this is the point I

meant this for me this was always for me the biggest the most important factor. Not to chop into pieces as a movement but to try to be played as if it would be a concert and then perhaps one or two notes almost a quarter say maximum but meant to break the phrase because I believe that even if you don't listen. If you've gone to seed that or if you can if you try to guess that there is such a thing as a phrase that lasts from say folk who fought then boss boss then if you got it into pieces nothing happens. I don't believe that it is possible that it happened something you are getting a kick ball. Perhaps we would say you know what you know in audible in this case yet this little little golden thread which was it that he suddenly chopped you know

and then I believe in it it shouldn't be to be done this way and that's why I always try to make big movements and then I get on a movement. But the press is against the concept that if you do it this way that you have to possibly get off this little bad and yet he's so essential to go on it that you find an orchestra the person over Christians have any difficulty in getting in to say the concert for a recording. You mean when they listen to the record when they are making the record and making the record. I didn't get very good at picking on him all the personnel of the orchestra capture the spirit concert given I said Oh I see if I MEAN YES YES YES YES YES YES YES I KNOW what I mean of course that's if you're going to do. Of course once much that I learn much that I will make them better you could use your concept and not a

professional kind of routine. I should think certainly the method that Maestro implies would be more conducive to having this feeling than that in which the musicians assemble on stage and they play in from letter A the letter B what it was for the law and so on. This I should think would do would lead to perhaps it is perfection in the sense that one doesn't hear any wrong notes or this kind of thing but it isn't the performance you know it is you must give it up moments and in that the formants you then as I said the patter little things but it's only little things on a small little squeaking I read a response on this but you see I have very good experiences now with this school which was done. It's a whore according down from a concert and I was surprised that it's possible to do in that already that very particular

which is not good because we have a very good one normal hole which we play all concerts and make accordion but this very day because it is such a big bet it was you know that I don't know many of you know yes that is quite a listen every time it's August. So we had to go to a big hole and we had a concert that and they took it from the concert the gramophone people and they never believed that they could do a good recording out of it and I never believed that I could make the other side and good musicians and play in such a varied it is almost would be a match your record you know from the point of view perfection of a dimension because and it saw that we made only a little repast next day just tiny little bits we needed about an hour for the whole piece. And it's not finished you know. So let's prove to you that you've got the possibility to make it because also on the concept. Yes.

Did you record the Janacek mass from from a kind of demand you not your mouth we need to do that. The concept first and then I made it according to which I like to do oh so you know it's also him which I don't like to make it about him just like that I would always like to have one before and expedience dams on the concept and then made the recording which I did here in Chicago so we do we distribute five pieces yes but. It was coupled with the impact of you know the bar for his professional you know we were playing in the library the other night. One of our young program voters here and I. The recording of the two Mozart symphony is that you did you know in Chicago years ago the 34 and 38 and. They are so beautiful and I was wondering do you go back. Do you listen to to work you've done

in the past. I should but I don't want closure because there isn't much time left for the you know I always think ahead and on should and from the mistakes of the past I always try at least in my mind to do it even if I don't know. David and I were to go to the gramophone and to you know there's a reason. But also I do sometimes but not that isn't as a rule. I just think that unfortunately too much and then I you know I have new experiences and of course you cannot very well have the conditions because they're going to be different. OK I didn't always have different you know so it is difficult. Well it's just a matter of time people have to do on 10 piece sometimes you chances are it's a record of a performance in any case. But do you enjoy listening to the gramophone. When you have. Yes I I don't mind it I'm not sorry I'm not so terribly keen on it myself because you know for me their life's sound is never satisfactory. It's out. I have stated what I'm saying but

if I know a score and I can take it and it's got me like a book and I go to my bad you know and I read it and I hear the most fantastic and surely it's much better than any golf on any concert that any conductor ever I could do it you know included of course. And I was myself my God how beautiful it would be if I could really hear this music as you know in life you know. So that didn't happen of course. You know it's there's no comparison. But of course music which I don't know and which I want to get then I would never go first to the gramophone and I would first study for the school and then I would break the piano I would do my own opinion about the music I had to learn it myself first and then I would go to the gramophone Babson listen to add up recordings that are going back as a source to compare notes just interesting and all that I wondered about but never stopped with that. I was wondering if perhaps he would listen to conductor and think oh my I

would never do it that way or perhaps on the other hand think another something I hadn't. I had to say about it not before I would never you know move on I don't know really well I don't know exactly. But I didn't even know who to you that's a big mistake. Young people I would never I wouldn't be my pupils I would never allow them to listen first to echo or being of any conductor and you know if they don't want to be themselves first they must first go through a lot of fear of heights of all four years almost of their own creative process. They must confront the new piece we did imagination. They must confront the newbies with their emotions. They must repay my scrotum with threats that you know everything that and then they did it and they went through all that then did I still see an opening to the story. Then they can go and listen to us and say aha my goodness we I made here this have this is not good what he does so I can do better.

So I sort of expect that sort of thing goes into your study of the school or you know I'm I'm a school teacher. And so we're constantly teaching student that's a model I want to center and real. And high scores will know the music and they will know or something of what the composer has put into it. You know as a conductor How do you tackle the score how you approach the score. Yes and preparing for perform. Yes first last first of all it may be very timid since a very long distance first one has to go through musically I will do what I call music it is just a basic but probably my first video I sent you know e s and to see you know music good melody can add Ammonius and rhythmical bottom. And then best grade on the piano if you dont understand everything out of it because you cant listen to a new position immediately without sound. I don't believe in God that everybody would be so phenomenal that he would have an ear to

ear going to score every doubt that shelf any instruments you know what I mean if you do that it's really difficult. But he can of course and I still hold a professional to peace from the looks on the at the school. But then he goes I said Well to be on anybody's going to be I hope he gets through his own emotion about what I do the emotional reaction and then after this I startle of course of the morning especially first to form or Absolutely you know. Complete to be hard to be able to know what to do than to go out on a road you could be if you know if you just are not a formula of what instruments you know what that's about is there any reason to. How many bars of the second subject you know all the sort of normal think that a conductor must know exactly because sometimes you know for the human body it's very important if you

memorize a piece you must know exactly where he is and what he's what he's doing how many boxes here in front of him you know and how many bass coming and going towards it and then you must know in the name of the disco I spotted the place this T-minus and runs it is very simple what I'm saying but you know that is the way it is a question though you just let's not go into the second time it is not there and you know. Then he must know in a classical symphony This is not so terribly difficult but of course you know modern of these things are very important and it's really just more of the same just the more it's less obvious. It is more hidden but you have to find them also. Another tickle spots and they all build up and if you know that I knew if I what I would call it memory because then you have the memory of your ear which indicated before you underscore the melody back then you have it in your sort of sphere. You can sing it along. You know when you have you will read your memory because you studied score so much that you see in front

of you the score or the back of you if you want to go you know I see sort of the scope of my spectacles no and no and then you had you were in the form of the formal memory mathematical memory which we must do if you received for instance this is the difficulty that some composers like young object. Who is so very. Absolutely. That he's for Mr. Trump very much and that you have to sign him and you must find a notch. And you must be emotionally interested all the time. Emotionally you know but it's thinking all the time of the mathematical patterns because they are so that you have to have seven ages and you have to contend with the left hand something goes under that and again something else you know because it's really technically very difficult and yet not to lose this emotional you know drive. That's that's that's that's what sustains us. I'm the symphony that we had on that here in Chicago last week. You know it takes only 25 minutes but it's almost certain that it will be because of this this fight between

the emotions and the brain. Well thank you this this is most enlightening and I think it's very interesting the way you tackle a score for performances and lessons in keeping with what we are trying to teach students students to do the same rhythm going to be done from a rhythm and the only way. I do think that there is a scarcity of musicians coming up. Do you think there are fewer good musicians being developed now that say you know what I know if I there is no more I would say more and more frightening. Sometimes one sometimes sees youngsters coming up with skill and with good backgrounds and yet not enough manage with less response than generations before so that they don't get to that a success and that is abundant. And I

seen much moderate minded people do studies you know musicians in their ass to 10 years and I saw when I was young I didn't see them damn so much made about Bryant. But now I see that as so many good good even talented people but they have I don't know enough talent or not enough you know. It stands to struggle through the difficulties of life and then they get mediocre. But today I'm more now more fighting themselves more because fracking in Europe. Are there new orchestras developing as seems to be the case all over America these days just orchestras springing up oh no no no. You are if not in the country you know you have a fantastic gifts to grasp the moment the moment of all this time and this widebodies country also that you have here is

tremendously active you know young people better than any of us better because they are full of idealism. I had this experience already when I was here in Chicago for these three years. In 15 or 50s early 50s I've been I'm when I went to university so I've found fresh air and I found the man this kind of event. But then of course break sometimes these people you know life and he's cruel and live sometimes too much at artistic and then it's just here in America you know you feel suddenly that they have to make a living and if there's any moment of any force you know to make a living in 70 they dropped the idea of a stick I had you know beliefs which they had yesterday being under University. And that is of course good. But then you said now that there are new caucuses coming up and so that these are very

encouraging and it's a very fine and it should be done because only with new and new new experiences and new ideas and new people. Because you can go on. Otherwise it would be suddenly things that are most certainly there would be no incentive for young people to study music you know in Europe you know it is all very nice to have good study sessions and the older one gets the more one sees. That institutions of great study important. When I was young I didn't have very much but today I must say that I do more. Yes. Yes I think that it is sometimes a handicap in development you know. You if you if you expect too much about the sions of its institutions I don't see half of individuals because individuals or something as if there's a great individual a man a genius that he has he's gotten into debts must be respected this and that this is creative and it's also helps that you young people get but I mean introducing you know who sits on the chest on

mass and seeing that they can live on their own. Lawrence in the past that these are handicap for development and that you don't have music in the musical field you know and you have read only part about not so much an Indian in Europe and you do any teaching. I dunno I don't know I don't as a visitor what I had to do works the causes of contacting But I don't believe that you can teach conducting unless you have been on an orchestra for that period of time you want to teach that it would be a complete such a very fine orgasm not only that I want to do this that you and I I was fortunate enough to have it in Woodson for two seasons. I had the time and I did look at the five weeks each time enough for food time costs so that akin to that I had only six or seven people that intake more and so that they could really work fully. This is a real problem in this country that is the training of conductors and one of the.

Problems essential in Chile is that the absence of an orchestra because it's such an expensive instrument if you're in that and not a Rockefeller you can do it because you've got to learn you can't teach and you can also and I don't have anything you've got if you don't have the you know experience the direct experience with the orchestra. If a teacher comes as usual doing it on an undefended in front of a table in front of a piano or something and you wouldn't want to learn anything you're going to I mean the principal beats you can always learn any bad there's no matter if you are gifted you know in few minutes I mean that's not the problem contacting you. This is that experience and that's what many schools offer courses degree programs in conducting that they do this and this. I'd like to refer back to something we were talking about a while ago when his recording was made. It was

of a performance and he mentioned that they had been uncertain about the mystical properties of the hall and to what extent the extraneous noises from the crowd my dear and so on her. And this brings up a topic which is much in the minds of Chicagoans these days and since nothing is fixed or permanent about it I think that. We were there to ask you what your reaction to the caustic Orchestra Hall was this time. Well you know it is it is difficult for me. It is difficult to analyze the because it is different. I notice immediately that over the course of difference it is not this flourishing in the sound for the conductor as it used to be in it but it also doesn't have that many echoes as it used to have. It was difficult for the conductor to hear properly under the hood. He got a

good satisfaction on the concept. This time I found that it was much more convenient. I hear everything clearly. And I guess you know I have no echo. But of course I don't get this flourishing song which I got in those days. There just has to work harder. The strings have to have to have to play more of it which is again of course good for them. Why shouldn't you know it's good to play fully when I understand the tumeric sound. OK real audio messages and one has to be careful but I see a sort of that doesn't rule out against the against string strings felons but in general in general I think with little adjustments. One point which I just mentioned that is these guys are going to get a litter more of their own this you know a little more off this flourishing sob and it has to

be adjusted to hold would be better in sound. I think about about about from this point you know I've heard my point of so many different opinions on this and apparently And I'm sure this would probably be true equally of other halls and other places. Apparently a great deal depends upon one's aural perspective now in the seats which we regularly occupy it is difficult for me to perceive very much difference. But frankly we're a little closer than I like to be this is a circumstance where you see you know I must say that if I said before from my point of view it is for me if I conduct a difficult was about going to that because what I'm saying but it is not. You see the conductor has diverse place you know but everybody know if you know we have the second thing is that going back to has a very subjective. The conductor hears he's orchestra. From his point of view he tries to Waters or get that together but has not got the what is it the best but

it's not enough. To see the influence of he's making you know you've got to cook you know and invent He doesn't taste different to me. You're blending the ingredients and somebody else is going to say that's not talking about me. One shouldn't rush would be honest I wouldn't leave because if I does muster more about that with extended contact that I believe there's another thing that I want to talk a bit more about and that is what you will be doing when you leave Chicago if you go right back to Munich. You know I go to Boston I have I have 13 concerts in Boston with a symphony in Boston and in New York and then I go and I go to Toronto having two concerts on the way to Boston. And after that I think I go to Europe back in February and it goes up to the end of January. In February I mean in Geneva I'm going to do that on Giovanni in a new production of the digraph and with rocky beach and

CA be caught in my wife's things that I love you know and some very nice young fellow sings the sort it should be definitely a full month in February. I mean you're never very far from the time I thought it was something. And then in March I go back to Munich and that's not going to my spring season. What sort of a season do you have in Munich with the Bavarian Radio construct. I'm deaf or about to get out in 16 weeks 16 and then I go to the orchestra because of that. So to get my book contents of 19 weeks to go to rest and Flea and last year I had a sabbatical you know I simply didn't take any engagements. Simply

didn't contact you when your guy died just didn't continue my contract for a year. I just said I want to have a rest from conducting a composter in Iraq most Don't you know that I myself was a full up but I was again an earlier operative was Monica. Yes you are a foreigner. Yes correct. Well no it's a new one. It's you know it's a dream from the time of how did you know and it's of course involved and God made us out already and she's she was so much of modern footage and it is half a legend and a half to it game out this study came out immediately after duty as a death in punishment and brought it in and a cold bottle and it was a gentle thrill from time. And then it was forgotten and my friend who wanted me to first open up he found it's all there in the form

of a novel and he made the rebuttal which is a very which was very strong and like I said because it confronts so much the time of innocence with all the time in order to hide on a cultural you know and you know this song in Venice and times have so many things which can be brought as an example of the problems for an individual. Just that I wasn't that old. It hurt me because I didn't do was musical musical anything from that time you know I just wrote my own 20th century but what interested me was the problem with an odd little ease about when I used arrives to sacrifice. He's finally I guess coming back. He's good for his own stick ideas you know in this case he's sacrificing her if she was in reach and he saved her from being being burned to death in those days it was possible to produce gold to do

this and say to the judge I want too many days ago and the tree was saved but it sounded good when he was 15 and this woman he was 53 or so already and he was mad he then had children and he didn't dad he just looked good because he wanted to have it as a mother and mother because he loved because he simply wanted he needed her father for a certain you know artistic program which he had you know had to do and. So he sat on one side but then he didn't get anything he didn't get that I didn't get any any any life new life because he couldn't he was married. So the girl finally of us didn't know what to do so she went back to be but you know this was only reality but it was only logical you know. You must have a story. But vanity it is a very happy tale I will let you know. And then doing so many things have us.

Senator Lisa how badly he has done because you know once he was this that oddity you know and she would look at this as her fate and to be taken up you know into life back again and then to go through the audit once more. It's hard to top. You completed this last year. Yes I'm going to be mounted units about to come to production. And I know that I just finished going and I want to I hope to do it some time in Europe. We've worked mostly. Yes we have another thing and just like you have you are good. Sex in the style I look forward to perhaps having you join us again on your next trip to Chicago and I'm confident this is going to fly. So thank you for thank you very much. I mean this thing passes. Thank you very much. Thank you so much it was a lot of money to us. QUESTION So this has been a conversation with Rafael Kubelik distinguished

conductor and composer. What does a bating or Aaron Parsons program annotator for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and professor and chairman of the department of theory and composition of Northwestern University School of Music and George don't program director of Zenith radio corporation's radio station WEAA have them Chicago. This program was distributed by national educational radio. This is the National Education o Radio Network.