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Regular Army I would like I've never been in Washington before where where can I. Well I would like to go out. Where can I buy an army surplus double sleeping bag. Why don't you try a counter over there. Well I just took the first one I came to you know all well trials is there I'm in the secretarial you are well ripe in the swing of it aren't you. I mean over there. How about it. Well it's all right. Pardon me pardon me say pardon me. Well what can I do for you. Well I'd like you to fill out the form. No because I just want to do what you have to fill out the form first form s p e q 6 0 7 8 0 3 9 6 5 hyphen 0 you'll find them on the table over there. Just fill it out you want to know you have to fill out the form first. S P E Q 6 0 7 8 0 3 9 6 5 0 SBT was 6 0 7 8 0 3 9 6 5 is entirely different.
S P E Q 6 7 0 8 0 0 7. S P E Q 6 cents the creek 6 p p q S P E Q 6 7 and speak 6 7 0 0 0. What do I have to do fill it out for you I don't know what you have to do don't ask me what your job is. All right I'll fill it out you have one all the time. Yes I have one all the time. Name an address. RICHARD ROWE give me that form I'll fill it out all right I don't know why people can't fill out the forms first. Take my good time for argument I'm about the fellow at me. What's it mean here don't glam packing exactly what it says you want to sell glam packing you have to fill out before I don't want to sell grand packing all I want if you don't want to sell glam pag Why did you come here. This steam fittings you need a steamed lamb packing section. All I want is the buy you don't buy anything that steams a steam plant. Section 2 Well I don't get very decent treatment at steam fittings unit a steam brand
packing sex and shove it. Don't think you can come in here and cause trouble like they cause trouble all right. If a certain big mouth slobbered listen to my simple question instead of shouting about horns there wouldn't be any trouble I'm going to register a complaint about you Mr. register I will rule if I can find the right unit and section for complaint. It's good for you. What do you mean good for me. I mean that guy has been transferred through every section from you bones to the not to wagon box braces he's just play now. Well I'll get his wagon box fixed for good. Be careful when you do. He can make trouble not for me. He can't. In a way Mr O is quite correct. We live under a government of law. One may speak one's mind forcefully though an official or employee of the United States government high or low without fear of the United States Marines a Navy Army or Air Force or the US Marshal even without fear of having his taxes raised. The
destructive power of the United States government from battleships to the power to tax is regulated by law and procedure. It's been that way since the revolution. Yes RICHARD ROWE is right. We live under a government of law. However the problem is that RICHARD ROWE has a sensitive job in the defense industry. To every man his doing the old series of radio programs about the principles of justice. To every man his due is produced by radio station WAGA of the University of Wisconsin under a grant from the National Educational Television Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational
broadcasters know sticks and stones. Three years after the Revolutionary War. It ended after the piece was signed. Farmers in western Massachusetts led by Daniel Shays turned to armed rebellion for addressing serious grievances. They attacked the courts both the judges and lawyers and quoted scripture in support of their cause. It was a frightening thing in a three year old nation. He would talk my good sir broke Washington to Henry Lee. You talk my good sir. Employing influence to appease these present tumults in Massachusetts. I know not where that influence is to be found. If attainable that it would be a proper remedy for the disorders influences not government. Washington was no political philosopher. He was a practical man of action a man with deep convictions and his convictions were anchored to the Keystone upon which
every structure of free government must be built. Influence is not government. Personal power is not law. Fear of arbitrary power is not decent order in all free states the power of government is control. It's predictable it's not applied by personal caprice. In all free nations the power of government is clamped and locked around the rails of procedure. Oh. Fellows the Queen of Hearts in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland wannabe. No one in these United States gets very far today shouting like that. Centuries of experience of established procedures which regulate the headsman's ax the hangman's noose and the executioners electric chair and the uses of prisons. Similarly traditions laws and procedures regulate the sort of the military in this country the obvious the crude and violent forms of government power are locked tight to a procedure
as is the more subtle but very destructive power of taxation. But history among other things is a record of new discoveries new ideas new techniques new doors opened. Pandora always has another box with a loose limbed. Be careful of that guy. You can make trouble. Not for me he can't. Mr O is quite mistaken. There was a time when a man could talk like that philosopher put it this way. There was a time when many Americans were in a position in which a man could lean his acts up against the rail fence roll up his sleeves and tell anyone in the world you go to hell. But those days are gone altogether. The Corp man must often drive the car wear the clothes speak the language and see the world as directed by the corporation. And if his wife is an unfortunate mistake the corporation will often rearrange her manners or dress or speech to make her a fitting partner of the body corporate. Few Americans today
can set their eyes and souls or minds to match the natural contours of our mountains corporation then bus drivers and graduate students in American universities must learn the handshake and the language. Join up play ball get with it become a part of an institution or organization. Give us men to match on Mt.. Capricious stock crazy as the angles in a rail fence and just as obsolete. The individual who matches the mountain may happily conformed to the Graham pattern of nature but not at all to the machine cut patterns of an organizational chart. Oh the argument runs too far. There is a truth in it. We are interrelated interlocked interdependent to an astonishing degree and that fact is highly relevant to the powers exercised by the governments of these United States. You row. Yes. Oh oh it's you from Steam fittings you need a ride. You're the guy that's going to get me in trouble right. Oh well he you and all
hell buddy you are going to be in trouble. I just might drop some hints that will get you a security check and investigation. Well there isn't anything to investigate me about. Besides they did that before I got my job. Well buddy they can do it again you know it just could be that I'll get your job if you get me just a few hands I might. Yes investigated. Oh no oh no. And then he stuck a feather in his cap and called it macaroni. He did a Richard Roe did take him down to the psychiatrist and see if he can be reorganized and if he won't play bomb fire I won't have any nuts like that are ruining the image of this organization. November 11th 1970 Petrograd formerly St. Petersburg
Leningrad Russian procedures related to the main force of the Russian government the army and the Navy break the bolts of its contest with the government for control of military force. The Bolsheviks with force in Russia jumps the rails. It's still off a new crime is invented called socially dangerous conduct. Join the handshake. Become a part of the organization. It's the law comrade. Free men around the world are faced by a monster regimented societies in Russia and China. They're equipped with huge armies and advanced rocketry. We've met this external threat with our own military might but our enemy is a new kind of enemy. He's had long experience and possesses advanced skills in the arts of espionage and sabotage and has great experience in organizing subversive forces within established States.
And he has great skill in the arts of political propaganda. He presents a hidden internal threat. We've met the external threat by the development of established patterns and processes. But in protecting ourselves from the threat within. We've developed in new directions. No sir I will not talk to you about it. Come on now row. I'm a doctor I'm supposed to help people that's my business. If you're a doctor you ought not to talk about a business. It ought to be a profession. You want to profess it. Look roh. Your boss asked me to talk to you because of that madcap business with a pony in the macaroni. Besides you were quite drunk. There has to be a reason. Let's talk it out. Look you you just keep out of my head. It's mine. I'll keep my head. I'm not going to let you reorganize it to fit someone else. I'll keep my head Mian Sir Walter Raleigh I don't follow you. Don't try. All I did was try to buy a double sleeping bag and then I got a little rough with this guy and he said he was going to have me checked or something double sleeping bag.
Now I'm getting somewhere 0 0 0 long have you been interested in double sleeping bag. You ought to have your mind washed. I'm leaving you know this goes a little farther than just your bus. You're on a sensitive job access to secret information. This drunkenness will probably go into your file. We certainly can't trust secret information to common drunks. Come back here and talk. I will not talk because I am I and will so remain. Goodbye. Go and roll I'm going to find that pony again. I'm going to get macaroni of my own. Get out of. My head. Nail this you lost for want of issue was lost but won the battle with the battle that. That. Was the interpretation is capricious. But the point
is clear. We live in the days of mass citizen armies which are dependent on full mobilization of the economic facilities of the country within our borders we must guard our water supplies our food supplies our machines factories railroads bridges and systems of communications. It's not enough to lock the war plans in the safe. It's not enough to check the loyalty of people doing super secret defense work. There are not a few but millions of key jobs and positions in this country which cannot be filled by people who might betray the national trust to protect ourselves from the enemy within. We must in a sense examine heads we must predict human behavior. Answer the question. What will this man do not the traditional Who Dunnit What has he done of the courts since for many reasons psychiatry
can't do the job. We turn to time tested methods of prediction the methods of intelligence. The loneliest of all intelligence units the combat intelligence section of an infantry battalion may deal a times in old tin cans empty boxes empty bottles. They enemy food supply is important in estimating future direction. Ideally it acts as a sort of frontline vacuum cleaner sucking up all sorts of information for analysis and evaluation. Today's scrap of paper may control tomorrow's battle. It's the job of any intelligence agency to gather. Oh scraps of information for evaluation and analysis. It takes a vacuum cleaner to suck up enough information to answer the question What will a man do whether the subject is an enemy platoon or a citizen of the United States. Yeah.
I know this is Rowe the ex Mrs. Rich. If I could have rung that chicken's neck been laid me I'd have his head on the mantel piece right now. I sell ask him. Just last year when they went to see watch why he lost out because he had tendencies all kinds of tendencies you name that tendency and I'll tell you he had it. It's a necessary intelligence activity collecting information all kinds from ex-wives enemies friends landlords janitors anyone who might have information which will help piece together a picture of Richard Rolle on which to base an estimate of his future behavior. And the question goes beyond the political attitudes and potential of Richard Roe. We can't afford to have people stations filled by alcoholics drug addicts
persons subject to blackmail or halfwits by yes boss Dick you're valuable to us. We got to have you on our pitch and boy we can kind of brush over that spree of yours. Yeah I've done that before but boy the second time you were riding that pony and stuff in your head with spaghetti you were stone cold sober you're not going to force her. No I tell you to go back and talk to that doctor again. I happen to be running the defense industry you know the nut factory in the world you explain that spaghetti. It wasn't spaghetti it was macaroni. By 1955 the Civil Service Commission had more than five million intelligence reports in its central security index. Not all of these were complete vacuum cleaning jobs but they represented a powerful collection of old wives tales comments of friends gossip of mothers in law and persons who never paid up on a personal loan. The list has grown since
1955. Add to it the industrial security program military and state programs and the list becomes enormous. In fact in at least one city in the western part of this country the city police intelligence squad takes long range pictures of peace marchers and citizens attending hearings on some sensitive matters and maintains a hometown file. The reputations and livelihoods of millions of American citizens lie in the files of the governments of these United States down to the local level. Every civilized country recognizes in its laws that the destruction of character and reputation is similar to the destruction of life or limb and is equivalent to the destruction of property. The major religions recognize the destructive power of slander and gossip. At one time or another in the history of most countries plain old fashioned blackmail has
been used as a highly effective political tool. Pandora has opened a new box. Our governments have a new power. It's not so crude as guns and electric chairs and prisons but almost as effective. It's certainly as destructive as the power to tax. It's new. There are no traditions for handling it. It's not locked to a well established procedure. Procedure varies from agency to agency from department to department from court decision to court decision from act of Congress to act of Congress from day to day. It has been argued that the refusal of a job or a firing from a government job is nothing more than a firing. But that argument is blind to the facts of our national life. Well they have started a security check on you know you're fired I could take your spree and I could take the pony in the macaroni and I can take communism. The government says you're a communist It does not they're just running a security check. That's what I
said. You're a communist get it. I'm going wait a minute. Where you going wrong. I'm going to get my pony and some macaroni and I can of beans and a canteen and an ax and some wages and sledges and and some truck to back and I'm going to the mountains to split rails. No one's going to hire a chemist or two. Even if they would hire a communist and Roe it won't help you to get a job if you have yellow calluses on your hands and your fingernails all split. Makes you look like an oddball which you are. Spaghetti and macaroni. Common gossip can be translated into a firing for security reasons. A discharge whether the firing concerns communism or simply a tendency to talk too much is often translated by the public into an official conviction. And there is no place in the organizational charts of are interlocked interrelated
interdependent society for a man officially branded with a big Red Sea firing may well mean destruction. The procedures used are based generally on goodwill common sense and a sense of fair play. An administrator or a committee of administrators examines the old tin cans the empty boxes broken bottles and scraps of paper of a human life and reaches a decision. None of us would care to leave control of battleships and machine guns to the common sense and goodwill of their commanders. None of us would care to leave the application of jails and prisons and electric chairs to common sense and goodwill procedures. Life liberty and property are guarded by procedures tested through centuries of experience. Government may not take life liberty or property without making every effort to reach the truth. Government may take reputation
after filtering gossip through what is assumed to be common sense and goodwill. Obviously security risks must be removed and obviously they must take their chances with the temper of the public. There is one proven very effective indispensable technique in use in our courts and in courts throughout the world which applies today. What will he do. Of intelligence as well as they. What did he do. Traditional criminal procedure. No other method known to man is so effective in separating truth from fiction. Gossip and malice from fact. The technique is confrontation and cross-examination cross-examination beats common sense all hollow and it shuts the mouth of malice ahead of time. This technique is not employed in the administration of the security files. Relatively
few Richard Rose because of the influence of common sense and goodwill and the influence of a sense of fair play. But personality is not law. Influence is not government. So George Washington one undeniably a necessary response to the internal threat has been the collection of intelligence files about some American citizens. There is another undeniably a necessary response to the internal threat of communism. Oh oh oh yes. Well how in the world did you find me up here in the mountains. Oh yeah where is. Yeah look at this. Well all right. Oh no summons from the congressional investigating committee. Oh no. A very emotional subject but there are some cold facts.
Investigation is a necessary and time honored function of Congress investigation of Communist activity has been a necessary activity of Congress. You people can deny a congressional investigating committee as our arms of Congress they act for Congress with the power of Congress. They are responsible to Congress and Congress is responsible for them. They are not the property of any one man or group. They are Congress. Neither house of Congress has established extensive or effective uniform procedures for its committees procedure varies from committee to committee but it is generally certain that an investigation must be related to a legitimate legislative purpose. The Founding Fathers deliberately divided the power of our governments into three units legislative executive and judicial. As a safeguard. Congress and its committees may not legitimately practice law enforcement or punish offenders. Investigating committees can use the full power of our government to subpoena witnesses. The full force of our government protects congressmen from libel and slander suits. Also protect
witnesses before committees congressional investigating committees can ask their parents house to charge witnesses with contempt the charge is tried in regular courts committees do not convict of contempt. So why the uproar. There is no uproar when Congress investigates the invasions of the blue breasted Doodlebug from Lower California. People do not vote for or against doodlebugs nothing can be damaged but the Doodlebugs and doodlebugs are easily identifiable as doodlebugs. Besides their bug is not citizens but finding communists pro communists fellow travelers and dupes requires an examination of heads. A collection of intelligence files. It has been the announced purpose of some congressional investigators to expose Communists fellow travelers and dupes. Some scholars claim that this is not a legitimate investigative purpose for
Congress Other scholars say that it is. The question is not settled but within the framework of exposure as a desirable aim of investigating committees. One question remains. Exposure of what. The minute you keep insisting it is you that a steam plant S.. I know that it was the man I saw at meeting of the Communist Party on January 7th like 237. That is malice a lie. A tin can from an intelligence file at the present time there are no procedural restrictions which can prevent a committee from exposing gossip and the contents of intelligence files as well as exposing genuine communists. In fact a common malicious gossip sitting in the witness chair of the committee of Congress is protected from suit by the United States government. Most committees will not permit cross-examination of witnesses by those accused and sometimes will not permit a person accused to make a corrective statement.
One need not ask whether or not committees have exposed gossip as well as communism. The point is that there is no procedural restriction which will effectively prevent it. In their legitimate pursuit of communism most of the committees of neglected to use the most effective and time tested of all tools for reaching the truth for separating gossip from fact cross-examination of the accuser by the accused or his counsel. If the committees have not used the contents of their intelligence files as punishment of the innocent as well as the guilty. It's because of the commonsense goodwill and sense of fair play of committee members not because of law and procedure. In 1952 a special committee of the American Bar Association concluded that there was a vital need for a code of fair procedure so that this area of our government like the rest of it would be subject to the rule of law. And the committee made a few recommendations among which were witnesses should be given a clear idea
as to exactly what is being investigated. They should have a right to counsel and the counsel should be permitted to give effective assistance they should have a chance to cross-examine opposing witnesses should be permitted to make statements. It was also recommended that the third person was defamed in the hearings should have the right to testify or file corrective statements and that the files of the committee be held confidential and that they be used only for proper committee purposes. This is not to imply that there ever has been a Richard rule or that there ever will be a Richard Roe but it's a cold unemotional fact that the only procedural protection which stands between citizens and the intelligence files between citizens and the possible malicious gossip on the witness stand lies in the common sense the goodwill and the sense of fair play of administrators officials of government and Congressman.
And it is a fact that the influence of personality is not law. Influence is not government. To every man his due is produced by radio station WAGA of the University of Wisconsin under a grant from the National Educational Television and Radio Center and distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters script by Milburn. And it is about Carlson content consultant David film and music by Don vaguely. Production by Carl Schmidt. This is the NABJ Radio Network.
To every man his due
Sticks and stones
Producing Organization
National Association of Educational Broadcasters
WHA (Radio station : Madison, Wis.)
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
Sticks and Stones: Loyalty Hearings and Congressional Investigations
Series Description
Dramatic-narrative series on principles of justice under the American system of law, particularly the rights of defendants.
Broadcast Date
Law Enforcement and Crime
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Advisor: Fellman, David, 1907-2003
Music Director: Voegeli, Don
Producing Organization: National Association of Educational Broadcasters
Producing Organization: WHA (Radio station : Madison, Wis.)
Production Manager: Schmidt, Karl
Writer: Carlson, Elizabeth
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 62-17-12 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:29:41
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Chicago: “To every man his due; Sticks and stones,” 1962-05-09, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed May 28, 2024,
MLA: “To every man his due; Sticks and stones.” 1962-05-09. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. May 28, 2024. <>.
APA: To every man his due; Sticks and stones. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from