Asia Society presents; 49

The usual source ID resent. This is a series of interviews with experts on Asian affairs designed to strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. Your host on this transcribed series is the noted author on the ward winning broadcaster Ligue Graham. Here now is Mrs. Graham. Although most Asian countries baffle us I think the one that may baffle us the most is China. One of the reasons for that of course is the fact that very few of us have ever been there. Already people have but most of us in this generation have not. We haven't been able to do this since 1950 as you probably know. Still we'd like to know more about this great power. We don't know what the future holds for us in our relations with China and any scrap of information we have I'm sure will prove useful. In fact Edwin Reischauer who was our ambassador to Japan under President Kennedy said quoting him we have in the past made errors sometimes a grievous warms in our relations with China and with all of Asia

because of a lack of knowledge and understanding the reasons for ours and farriers have usually not been the inadequacy of expert knowledge so much as a lack of popular understanding which would have committed a wise political use of what knowledge we did have. Well our guest on this program knows a great deal about the Far East particularly the area of Southeast Asia. And I'm sorry of South Asia. Oh he is Donald Klein who is a research associate at the East Asian Institute at Columbia University. He has spent considerable time in the Far East about nine years and altogether has spent about five years at the institute. Now Mr. Klein when we speak of East Asia and Southeast Asia many of us bump them all together and feel well Asia is that amorphous mysterious place. Is there any reason why East Asia which I believe includes Korea China and Japan were selected as the focus for this Institute at Columbia.

Well I don't really know its specific origins but I imagine the language situation had a very large role to play in this because the three of them all share the same fact of using Chinese characters so to speak a grass for their writing. So it is there's a cultural homogeneity in this particular area. Well how about you. I mean you know I'm including China Japan and Korea. Yes but I mean does the Japanese language use the same symbols as the Chinese sense of the word yes. Well you know that is as just as we say share with the Spanish the use of the alphabet. Both of these nations use the same basic characters to write their words they pronounce them differently of course. What would you say if you understood Japanese It would be fairly easy to understand Chinese spoken as very dissimilar. But if you can read one you can at least roughly make your way in the other one. How did you happen to spend as long as nine years in the Far East.

I began there really with the Korean War and it just sort of grew like Topsy in my own case I was very interested in the area because I'd been interested in international relations. And I say stay there I don't know. Met a Japanese girl who I say influenced my sting. And. Then I decided that I would continue in this field of work and came back to Columbia. What does the East Asian Institute you want to do what is its purpose purpose is really twofold One is to train students at any given time in probably about 100 students studying either China Japan Korea. At the East Asian Institute and the rest of the work there. And for example what I'm doing is most of the time is engaged in research. Essentially a 20th century research and time spent I cover many of us wonder how the information we understand how you know about Japan and Korea but how do you really know about China.

Well I guess if there is that the so-called bamboo curtain is in many ways nothing more than a myth really. We get a great number of publications out of China. Certainly more than any of us can possibly read really in a lifetime. Newspapers magazines and the like. We also really see the facilities of the US government monitor radio broadcasts tremendous value. Once again far more than any one person can handle. So there's a lot of information. Well there are many Asian people. Or are you mostly American scholars. No it's a very different mix I think. And I'm so used to seeing the faces and the sense I can have even think of it I would say that probably. Maybe a third of the students are themselves ethnically Asian and some point in this country that most are coming from some part of Asia. And I mean the staff the professors and so forth is probably another third or maybe even a half Asian origin.

So what would you say Mr. crime that an organization or let's say a center like the East Asian Institute of Columbia has any influence upon the foreign policy of this country. Well most of us like to think that we have some influence but what you really have to say in recent years I would say that it's probably declined and this is related I think a sensitive it now. Say five years ago and before that it was a fair amount of contact between people that not only a Columbia of course but at Harvard and other major centers like this. But I don't think there's any question but that this is declined in the last few years both personally and professionally. I see there are other centers as you pointed out because you understand Asia has grown perhaps we have forced We have been forced through events to increase our interest and apprehension about Asia. So there are now centers like this in what 10 or 12 major universities or something along US or as I said Harvard Michigan and Berkeley University of Washington California or Stanford rather. And a few more

but about 10 or so. Now something that always surprises people is to hear about the talks that have been continuing with breaks of course but nevertheless continuing in Warsaw between China and the United States. Is there much significance of these talks. Yes I think there is in fact a great deal of significance. Part of it is simply symbolic. Namely it's a demonstration that both sides whatever their grievances is why they are still anxious to keep open this line of communication. Has anything concrete come of it. In certain ways for example the very first period when I began which is in 1955 some Americans were released who had been imprisoned in China. So obviously from their point of view it was a very positive act. But perhaps the most useful thing is that it serves as a kind of safety valve. There have been periods and for example one hundred fifty eight and again in 1962 there were crises in the Taiwan Straits area. And although it's never

fully articulated by the U.S. government it's common knowledge that we were able to in effect communicate with the Chinese and say to them we do not want to escalate this to a war. And most of us regard this as a useful kind of a hotline if you will. We're getting back to China itself. We haven't been allowed to go into China since I believe you said nine hundred forty nine thousand nine hundred fifty. But there have been exceptions which Americans have been permitted entry and under what circumstances. Well probably perhaps the most notable was snow. You probably know from his very classic book back in the mid 30s called Red Star over China who in a sense sort of discovered the Chinese Communist. He has been. In a couple of occasions to China and interviewed you know significant people including now not Saddam himself. The other cases of the rather unusual ones for example there was an American who has been imprisoned on the grounds that he

was a CIA agent and the Chinese have allowed his mother to visit him about I think five occasions in the late 50s and the 60s but almost all the cases are highly selective and explainable within the context of Chinese attitudes and I believe our government has in it in recent times offered to exchange scholars scientists people of goodwill you know who are not interested primarily in politics with China and nothing has come of that has it out Hatley nothing. I believe that it has probably been raised in these two recent talks in Warsaw and I'm sure you've seen in the press. But both sides are keeping us for the moment at least confidential. What transpired. I believe it's accepted that we have races at least with them to broaden our knowledge of China. You have an institute like that want to Colombia as you say monitor programs and you read newspapers and periodicals. You also have a number of people who have been in China

who have other nationalities. Just Canadian British German. We're going come to the institute to give you information. From time to time as this happens and you know it's very sort of a willy nilly situation when we hear somebody say who's in New York perhaps at the U.N. mission or something like that who had been you know with a foreign embassy in China. We make it a point to invite them to come up and talk to the students. Things like this of course are some just simply foreign students let us say you know from Denmark or something. I studied for example in Peking and I just applied to come to one of my schools and I was admitted So he's he's been there. Yes and he but this is generally the exception. Putting together everything that you have which I suppose is a rather tall order. Nevertheless I know is it doubly sweeping question still putting together what you have. What is that like in China today. Is there more or less basic

contentment. Is there confusion. The Red Guards upset everything. What what is the situation. Well you're right it's right. I know. Let me see if I can pick out some salient points. The period of I think quite genuine chaos persisted and. Say 66 67. Even to sixty eight I think has been very very sharply curtailed and to a large degree things are back to normal. There is I don't believe general level of chaos and lack of law and order to use the common American idiom right now. Times are I think rather difficult because Unquestionably this there were disk locations for example in the economy. That were very troubling to the whole society. The Red Guards. Well the decision was made somewhere along the line within the last year or so that they had in fact

been something of a disruptive force and so they had to do something with them. Once again to use a sweeping statement they sent most amount to the countryside. What does that mean. That means I go out working the phones essentially and not complying and I don't want to imply that this isn't a slave labor camp businesses. I don't the implication was there but you don't know this is not a Soviet Siberia sort of thing. They know they go out and the common laborer is essential. When is the idea in China to keep the people in a state of anxiety over their neighbors over foreign countries in order to maintain their morale. I mean does the government seem to say you're going to have trouble with India. Well you are going to have trouble with Russia or the United States. Well to some degree this is true as I think to some degree it's true of all nations including our own. Yes the level of anxiety. Right now it's probably about an even between who is the worst. What is the United

States of the Soviet Union. Fact I think probably the Soviets have an edge on us in this regard right now. You mean that the Soviet Union is considered a worse threat Iran's point than the United States. Yes I remember they have it you know common boundary runs perhaps 3000 miles years house and so has been as you know keeps indicating that the would not in evidence between the two would not be surprising. Yeah I share that opinion. I don't think I do really. One thing if you look at a map quite closely I mean to some degree this may contradict what I just said. Yes they have an extremely long border but the border just not live really in areas that are crucial to either nation. This is not an Alsatian or a sort of a situation. The height of rush is thousands of miles from China and really the heartland of China is at least hundreds of miles from the Russian nears Russian border. Can anyone determine what China would like forgetting what we would like or anyone else would like. What has China in mind for the future. Could you

make any prophecies. Dangerous business domestically. And yes let's begin domestically. Well I think that there's little doubt that they regard themselves as a socialist nation a communist nation whatever term US. And they have full intention of maintaining this. That they are trying to resolve what can almost be called an age old problem of sort of a conflict between the countryside and the city. And that is that life is extremely tough. Still in the countryside. And to try to get a better balance between that in the urban areas as is a very major problem. In fact I think you have to state it and statistics I'll try to keep these at a minimum. But if you can imagine five to six hundred million people working in rural areas and then another hundred million people say half the size United States working in urban areas you can see the sort of enormity of the problem I'm talking about

are the people necessary in the countryside because China is still primarily an agricultural country. Yes. And once again as a crude figure it's probably 80 to 90 percent agrarian or in a country that now has the feeding of people being improved. It was a time when there was famine and drought and starvation. Would you say that aspect of life in China has definitely improved. Yes I think that this is there is general agreement in this field I believe that. That there's a much greater general equality. There are far fewer salmon to eat on a broad basis or a small one that I don't like to use the word fan I think maybe acute food shortages would be a better one. But in this regard they've done a rather good job. So China can see itself as a socialist Marxist communist or however one wants to describe the country and wants to stay that way. Feeling that the best type of economy for the people.

A planned economy is very central to their thinking. What else does China want now that's leaving the country and going out to its relationships with others. Well like any country they want to have secure border lands. I think that they feel very very strongly that they deserve a place in the sun so to speak. They want to be recognize that the normal symbols and trappings of what we rather loosely call the great power. For example it's debated in our field you know whether they really want to get in the U.N. or they don't want to get in the U.N. but incensed I think this is a rather specious argument. They may not want to for a short term have any dealings with the United Nations. It strikes me as just almost common sense that on a long range symbolic basis they want to be accepted by the United Nations. Well if you think if any nation does. Well if you think of the United Nations as a gentlemen's club which doesn't accomplish very much then I suppose there's no harm in belonging but

as a as an active a body which is making a major contribution the U.N. is rather disappointing to most of us. So would that is it then just a matter of prestige for John and to belong. Well I mean what could you not let symbol of pride I mean most Chinese you know of whatever political persuasion nationalist communists. Feel that China has has gotten. A bad deal from a great segment of the rest of the world for better than a century now. And they're determined that they're going to you know as I say make their place in the sun and be a respected power in one form or another. How about China's activities outside our own borders in the affairs of other countries Tibet. Most of which are maybe only which now she has occupied since gone which is along the border with India. What she may or may not be doing in North Korea and North Vietnam. How about that type of activity. How much of it is going on.

I think this is pretty peripheral at this particular stage but I think the change is moving to a somewhat as you hear more about in this country just kind of a neo isolationist position. That they have no great problems at home. May have you know a simple and mundane matter but nonetheless vital like feeding you know seven to eight hundred million people. So I I personally don't accept the fact that there really right now Jane you mean expansionist power. No just to say this is much debated and much disputed by certain members of the United States government. That's my own view. But how about China's activities though in the war in Vietnam. Is there much in the way of a surprise come through. Yes there's no question about that. If you contribute as much as the Soviet Union to North Vietnam. I should know these figures but I don't I know that if the Soviet Union is contributed roughly about twice the level of China but China does. China is definitely contributor I mean there's no

mistake about this they say so themselves yeah so this isn't a covert matter when it was denied at one time. Now it's you know acknowledged you know. Well here it's many supplies small arms food North Vietnam could not continue this without the Soviet Union and China. I doubt that's a debatable matter where you can have the valid but you need the surprise possibly. Would you say that China is mostly because the Soviet Union is there. Is that something that irks her and she has to continue for that reason. That's probably a factor but don't forget this country is a borderline country. It's when you have a situation where the United States is bombing within seven or eight miles away as we were up to your so ago. Now actually they have a strong interest in what's going on in this neighboring country. Well speaking of being interested in what's going on and I the purpose of this program is for people in the United States to try to find out something about what is going on in Asia. Do you

agree mostly with what Mr. Reischauer said that the reason for errors and failures have not been an inadequacy of expert knowledge. So much is the lack of popular understanding that would have permitted us wise political use of our knowledge. Do you think he means by that that the people of the United States in general don't understand enough about this. I think that's what he's suggesting. I have a feeling maybe under-rating American public I'm one of those who believes that if they get a fair amount of knowledge that they will act. I think it's. More than our government's failure to act myself. You feel that there is not sufficient dissemination of information of impartial information. Now the government has a great deal of information but I think that they have sometimes as Mr. Rush Hour suggested acted rather unwise on the basis of even what they know if you don't mind being put on the spot Mr. Klein would you venture a guess as to what might be our relations with China in the future if China becomes more isolationist. If you say she's really not an expansionist power I mean if all

these things are true do you see an improvement in our relations. I see marginal improvement but I think frankly as much as it disappoints me personally I don't really see any particular breakthrough in the cards for the next few years. If you don't see a breakthrough in the cards that is to become more friendly you see a break up in relations that would become hostile. No I think that the direction will be to I hesitate hesitant to use the word friendly you know but towards a more accommodating posture let us say it's with the other which European country would you say I want other country outside of. Well let's say North Vietnam is friendly with China what would be her best friend at this point. At this point. Well again you know Dana. Yes in fact in terms of more realistic things I think Japan despite lingering hostilities I have a great level of contact and already in the rather enormous trade.

And if certain things happen they may well have a lot more to do with one another in the next few years and I thank you very much because you have added to our fund of information small as it is your addition to it is certainly increased it and I'd like to say that on this program you have been listening to Donald Klein Donald Klein is a research associate at the East Asian Institute at Columbia University. He spent about nine years in the Far East and about five years economy. Thank you very much and goodbye. That concludes tonight's edition of the Asia Society presents with Lee Graham. This series comes to you through the cooperation of the Asia Society. If you would like to comment on tonight's program or would like further information about the society and how you can participate in its many interesting activities please write to Mrs. Graham at WNYC New York City 100 0 7 and make a note to join us again next week at this time for another edition of the Asia Society presents.

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