Asia Society presents; 11

Ages ago Society president this is a series of interviews with experts on AIDS and the players designed to strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. You're a host on this transcribed series of the noted author and award winning broadcaster Ligue Graham. Here now is Mrs. Graham the part of the year we are talking about on this program is China the People's Republic of China or mainland China. But I don't want to be misleading. Actually what we are talking about is the practice of traditional Chinese medicine which of course originated in that part of the world as well as the People's Republic and soon I'm afraid there isn't too much we can say about that right now. Yep to tell you that and you probably know it. It is a country which has a land area of almost 4 million square miles and a population of about 700 million people. Our guest on this program is a man who although American by birth knows a great deal about the Orient and especially about traditional Chinese medicine here John Z Bowers who was president of the Macy foundation he spent two

years in Japan as the visiting professor of medicine at Kyoto University 1962 to 64. He has visited most of the Asian countries where chinese traditional medicine is practiced and he has written a book called medical education in Japan from chinese medicine to Western medicine. Dr. Bowers How did you. Good. American division although most will be I gather become so interested in Chinese traditional medicine that I became interested in Chinese traditional medicine because. It is followed by a very significant percentage of the world's people. It's a complex and fascinating system. It has made contributions to medicine in the West. And there is every evidence that it is a stable system of medicine which we can anticipate will continue to be followed in

many world areas for the foreseeable future. I read just a short article about this kind this practice of medicine in general as you know published by the ADA society and in the opening you mention the fact that there are three traditional systems of medicine still practice in the world. In addition to the Western system would you describe what they are. Briefly there are very yes very briefly. In addition to chinese traditional medicine there is a system of medicine that has been followed in India for many centuries called I or Vatican medicine. A Y U R V E D I C which is based on the Vedic scriptures which you are a part of the great Indian tradition. Then there is a second system of matter some call you Nonny UN and I Madison which is followed in Persia or Persian people. These systems are different than the Chinese in that they do not have as

much technical application. Part of the fascination of the Chinese system is the precise technical procedures that go with it. You Nani and I are vetting medicine. Do not follow or accept any germ theory of disease nor Chinese medicine. They prate place great reliance upon a large Materia Medica but they have begun to utilize to a greater degree than chinese medicine modern western drugs. So out when I was in India and 6 D 1959 rather. I was taken out to sea and I are Vatican doctor he called of aid practicing and North Bengal. And in addition to all of his Indian herbs he had penicillin and soften LMI and Arielle myson. So he was using both the Old and the new. But you do not find this mixing to the same

degree. With Chinese traditional medicine what would you say was the main difference then between the Persian and Indian practice of medicine which I gather have more in common. Yeah. And the Chinese. What is the main difference then between them. Maybe if I could just describe the Chinese system a bit. Yes please. Which is certainly the older system of medicine in the world. It begins with the dawn of the Chinese civilization the Chinese culture. It is based as is everything else in Chinese philosophy. Applying opposing forces the yin yang. Female and male. And these must always be and perfect balance. Otherwise the individual loses his harmony with his environment and when harmony disappears disease supervene. So that the balance is essential.

When disease supervenes then it is considered to be due to loss of harmony. There is no thought of the invasion of a bacteria or the loss of a hormone or the information of an appendix. Everything is based upon harmony. And all of the procedures used in therapy are intended to restore harmony. Diagnosis interestingly enough is based upon careful inspection of the patient and attention to what is called his mood. A careful inspection of the tongue and chinese medicine there are books written about the tongue. And then meticulous palpation of the pulse which pulses I should say which usually last for about 10 minutes on Chinese medicine they believe that there are separate segments in the pulse which indicate the state of a particular organ

so that there is a liver segment and a kidney segment and a heart segment. And if the pulse is suppose said to be an event or disturbed in those segments a skilled Chinese practitioner maintains that he can tell that the liver is sick. And so then he launches into a very formidable therapeutic procedure to restore the harmony which has been lost. They don't use a Western diagnosis then like X-ray. Now they don't resort to see you during your exploratory search surgery. You know one of the one of the problems in the introduction of Western medicine or let's say Western medical knowledge into both Japan China and China is the long felt policy the great belief of the people that when one buys his or her body

must be intact. And therefore to operate on a body to remove a piece of liver or to amputate an extremity would mean that the person couldn't really be buried properly and would have to be put back together there is. You might be interested in amusing story about Sun Yat-Sen that when he died he was autopsied at a missionary hospital in Peking. And a very tiny sliver of his liver was removed for examination of the microscope. Of course he had widespread cancer of the liver which is a not uncommon disease in the Far East. When the Japanese came to Peking they wished to gain the greatest possible popularity and so they seized upon the idea that Sun Yat-Sen had not been buried intact in Nanking because a piece of a tiny sliver of his liver was in this

missionary hospital so they accused Americans of having destroyed so many at Sens happy burial by keeping a part of his liver. Well actually it turned out that there was a millimeter thick piece on a glass slide but this was wrapped up in a boxing great ceremony and marched off to Nanking by the Japanese with great pomp and circumstance so that any ideas and run should not be physically touched or genitals or mutilated is important. Terribly and they don't believe in looking on the inside. You know that that kind of that study deception and so forth is of a medicine has to be practiced solely on an exterior basis. Yes plus the use of various Herb's and drugs. Yes. When I was a physician what what is your opinion of this. Do you find that some of these methods have been successful although they may not seem rational to us.

Some of our early drugs came from China and today a drug is used a great deal in the treatment of asthma for example ephedrine was first derived from Chinese sources. Other Drugs of earlier popularity such as Senna bar mark other mercury derivatives camphor Ru Barr came from this enormous Materia Medica which is a an important part of Chinese traditional medicine. But there are fascinating techniques that are used in Chinese medicine. One occupant's year in which a slender needles are inserted in specific points in the skin and the other marks a bastion in which burning Maass is applied to similar specific points on the skin. Now part of the doctorate of Chinese

medicine is that there are three hundred sixty five well-defined points on the skin. Perhaps let us say 14 of the relate to the liver. 20 might relate to the kidney and having felt the pulse and determined let us say that the kidney is diseased. The practitioner of chinese traditional medicine then would insert the needles or burn marks at the points which he believes relate to the kidney. But the cure if any would use a stem more from the use of the drugs the Materia Medica than from the burning needles. Oh I think the punctures the needles or the burning Moss. Well yes. Although in the Chinese Materia Medica drugs are usually administered in mixtures. A child a practitioner of chinese traditional medicine could never answer me if I said What do you give

for high blood pressure. Or what do you use for stomach ulcers. They would have to say well we use this mixture and that mixture so that the use of a single drug is very unusual. Second they give very small doses. And the physicians from the West to journeyed to China and Japan in the 17th and 18th century were very impressed with the gentle. They described that method of Chinese medicine. And I'm sure as far as patients were concerned they appreciate it would have appreciated the gentleness of Chinese medicine much more than the bleeding and sweating and purging and vomiting and leaching which were Western medicine. And before the 19th century the way people were treated it was pretty abominable in the West so as you say by comparison theirs was better off in China or Japan at that point. I wonder is it today better off is this practice of

medicine more effective than Then we realize in the West and Ali beginning to use some of these methods more than we care to admit. Well. No one can say that about eighty five percent of the diseases for which a physician cares for patients are so-called self-limited diseases that within a period of 24 hours or 48 hours or five days are going to disappear. And that the best that we do is to give medicines which make the patient more comfortable and to avert complications. Well I Chinese physician gives a lot of Madisons. He does about the same thing let us say that we do he tries to relieve symptoms. And the important thing is that the people have great faith in this matter. So that and perhaps 85 percent of the diseases one could say that the Chinese practitioner does no harm and

that the patient gets well with some benefit from chinese traditional medicine. The problem is that if a patient has acute pain decide or an acute gallbladder. Or a hemorrhage into the eye or a greater then chinese medicine is harmful because there is no cure for Panda scientists say removal of the pandemics when that is necessary and a practitioner of Chinese medicine is not prepared to remove a diseased appendix. Well then that could practitioner of traditional chinese medicine does not practice in our sense of the word ever never. Now the pure the practitioner of chinese traditional medicine in Hong Kong today. Let us say we'll see a patient who has abdominal pain and he'll give his Chinese medicines for several days. If the abdominal pain persists

he send that patient to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital Queen Mary Hospital. Where he or she is seen by the faculty let's say of the University of Hong Kong medical school. And if there's gallbladder disease then Western treatment is introduced. If there's a cute panda sayas and so forth. So then the person who's suffering there gets the benefit of the best of both worlds. You visited the doctor about Asian countries where chinese traditional medicine is still practiced. Is it practiced these days in its pure form. Or does this mix to prevail. If one can help you John to traditional medicine then we bring you a little Western medicine. Is that the way it's being done by decree. The Communists first declared that only western medicine would be for the people of China. They only would have the best they thought. However they recognized very shortly that they only had a couple of thousand at the most doctors trained in Western

medicine. They had hundreds of thousands of practitioners of chinese traditional medicine and they had hundreds of millions of people. So they reversed the decree and each man did then that chinese traditional medicine and western medicine must be few so that if one were sick let us say today in Nanking. When we go to a clinic and if you walk in the right hand or you would get Western medicine and penicillin. If you went in the left hand or you get acupuncture and chinese traditional medicine so you can take your choice and help you get a good blend we'll truly hope you guess right. Hoping you felt well enough in the first place and got the dud about. You say that there has been an increasing interest in chinese traditional medicine. That is the use of acupuncture with I guess the drugs that they use their heads in the West. How strong is this interest.

Well the in London. Yeah which it has certainly been a citadel of medicine and I would say very good clinical medicine. And in London there are 22 physicians whom I'm aware of who are graduates of excellent British medical school or at least very good schools who do occupancy and who believe that they can make diagnosis by feeling the pulse. And I've watched them in action. They do just a pure form of Chinese medicine as the men do in Hong Kong or Taipei. What is the principle behind acupuncture taking little needles and pricking the skin and at long certain points. What is that supposed to do for the patient. We do use some sort of pressure the IDSA believe to stimulate to encourage the restoration of harmony between the opposing forces in the diseased organ.

What does the punk should do then. We do use the disharmony. Well the Chinese practitioner say it corrects the imbalance as best you can translate it. At rest they come back frequently to harmony. They don't talk about the release of spirits. Or they release of humors or gases. They talk about harmony and the restoration of harmony. But in the Chinese traditional medicines anatomical theory there are innumerable and definable channels that course from the skin to the organs. Now a doctor in Northern Korea in Pyongyang claims that with the use of radioactive phosphorus he has been able to identify these channels. And several of us in the West have tried to communicate with him and hopefully to see his materials but we've never been able to do so

however. The famed author as Hans So Ian who is a physician graduate I think of Hong Kong in fact and claims that she has had an opportunity to study this material and she averse that he has proven that chinese traditional medicine does indeed have a sound anatomical basis. But none of us have been able to see the materials and therefore we cannot accept this. You say that China was the last country in the Asia to accept western medicine. The other countries such as Japan all want. Which of the countries accepted it before China. Well Japan began to accept western medicine in the middle of the 16th century and yet is that when the Jesuits led by France's Savior invaded as it were Japan but how about the other countries of the Philippines or whatever the Asian countries you have in the Philippines

began about the same time. Soon after Magellan when the Dominican and Franciscan priest came to the Philippines they brought Western medicine. But it wasn't until 1913 the year I was born in fact that the first autopsy was done in China and this was only done because there was a violent plague epidemic in Manchuria and the missionaries persuaded the Emperor to decree that an autopsy could be performed but could we go back to Europe for a minute. Yes sorry. And frats acupuncture is popular it's practiced Of course particularly by the hundreds of French refugee physicians who came out of Indochina after the fall of the NBN flu and Germany which Germany have always the Germans have always placed a lot of emphasis on spotters and exercises and it was natural to anticipate that the German people would sort of enjoy acupuncture and indeed they

do. I talked with a woman on Friday who knows a great deal about Dutch medicine and she was aghast to return from Honolulu to her beloved Amsterdam and find that there were signs out of man advertising that they were doing occupancy. How about the United States I think you said Dr. Bowers when you gave a talk about this recently a number of people wrote to you and asked you is it was it possible to get this sort of medicine here. What was that just as just a few people who did it or do you think that this will grow into a demand on the part of people who feel and I getting results from ordinary Western medicine and I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be pleased and more than willing to receive occupant you. However I cannot anticipate that acupuncture will become popular in the United States after all. We have more rigid codes governing what

people do in the way of the practice of medicine. I don't mean to sound like I'm a globalist but I did happen to be in San Francisco yesterday. And in preparation for this broadcast I did a little homework so I walked through Chinatown. And I brought some gin sang and I bought some tiger balm which is great stuff it's good for everything. And I was told by the apothecary that there was at least one man on Clay Street. From whom I could get occupants here and I think there are a couple of hidden occupying trees probably down in Chinatown. So if we don't like our usual aspirin a buffer and we could taste some tiger balm you say. We don't like the surgery we're getting we might try a little acupuncture. Well if you end this this article with a sentence which I think anyone could embrace it doesn't matter what helps you is not news that helps you.

But it's fascinating to think that something as old as this what 2000 years perhaps in its origins still persists and affects a great part of the world in the way people are treated for their illness. And one can't ignore it. But I think it's most interesting to look into it. And I thank you for coming here Dr. Bowers and telling us this much about it. And our guest on this program has been John is the Bower's Dr. Bowers is president of the foundation. He has been visiting a professor of medicine at Kyoto University in Japan spend a good part of his time in Asian countries studying the use of traditional chinese medicine there. And hence it may be we'll be using some of it here. And this is Lee Graham saying goodbye with a reminder that although east is east and west is west we think that the time has come for the twain to meet. You have just heard the ages inside he presents with Lee Graham. This program is

produced by members of the staff of the age's society. This transcribed feature of your city station comes to you through a public service grant of the age of society. If you would like to comment on this program or would like further information about the work of the ages as I do you are how you can become a member. Please write to Mrs Lee Graham and WNYC New York 100 0 0 7. We hope you enjoyed this broadcast and we invite you to join us again next week at the same time for another edition of that age of society present. This program was distributed by the national educational radio network.