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But one of the conditions that lead to being creative and doing creative work. I think one of the first conditions is that you've got to have freedom. That without freedom it is not possible to be creative. Our freedom is a relative thing in my opinion there is no such thing as absolute freedom and I'm sure some of the members of the audience will well load quiz me on this. In our discussion but I don't think there is such a thing as absolute freedom. I think there are relative degrees of freedom and that you gotta have freedom to make a choice. If you are going to be creative if you have no choices if you make no choices if there are no alternatives then you can't go anywhere you're dead lie down and give up. Turn in your union guy. It dawns without choices when I will try to be as there is no place to go. So I did one of the primary aspects of
a creative piece of work of a creative effort is that there's got to be freedom freedom to modify to change to order to go beyond the given to innovate a set of alternatives a set of choice. It seems to me that unless you have this freedom to let your imagination go to give yourself your head to give yourself a chance to do go in a new direction in a different direction. There is little likelihood that you will be able to hammer. Anything that is creative come out now. There is an interesting psychological study I want to tell you about just as an option. Welcome back to the conditions in a moment and you'll see how they relate. They did a psychological study and investigation of a group of creative students students that they forecasted will be creative people. Now I think that this is a self-fulfilling destiny as we say as our opening piece of
research. And I wouldn't take it at face value but it's interesting anyway to consider the findings of a team do they discover that almost you know they predicted would be creative with those who have the following kinds of characteristics. One that they had a great degree of independence. Indeed mentors to get stand on their own feet. They were so determined are that if they did say what does mama want me to do what does papa want me to do. What was a teacher what we do what the society want me to do. And a great deal of independence in terms of what a baby wanted to do we had made found their source of inspiration if you will. That they were independent kind of people not the deep ended. Absolute independence doesn't exist any more than absolute deepness. But they moved in the direction of being more in the end than being
second rate. They found that they were very difficult to test and to interview that the so called potential geniuses beachball to ensure creative people were very difficult to get them to work together with you in you on your terms. My hunch is that these were rebellious characters. These were anti-authoritarian characters or anti-establishment characters and therefore they weren't. You said to him after the first five questions and he answered the first question the fifth questions that at the other three are too easy Anyway you didn't answer. Or something like that. But they would not come forward. They would not submit in this need to be to resist the testing they would not submit to ordinary testing in ordinary interviewing. And finally they were not the most brilliant students in the school. That almost created one of the most brilliant stews. These are three items in the Finder's. What I am suggesting
is that maybe we don't have to be so brilliant in order to take advantage of the freedoms that we do have but maybe we can do more creative work on our own. There is a young lady in the audience who you wrote me a letter some days ago in which she said as an old Talmudic story in which the rabbi was sitting with his disciples and the disciple said to the rabbi what is the Messiah waiting for. You know everybody is ready the Messiah to come. You know economic theory follows those two you know that they said the best job in them in middle Europe in the Middle Ages was to be the man who stood on the hill and watched for the Messiah to come. When he saw the Messiah he was supposed to notify the town. He got only a penny a day but he had permanent work. I mean after all it doesn't matter how much you get me up I'm going to work. So anyway they were everybody was always discussing when. The Messiah
and all of this she wrote me this wanted to tell me this town Munich story which said that the disciples said it. Tell me what is the Messiah waiting fault. And the rabbi NC for you. Now I think she was saying that to me but I say this to you because if we're going to be creative in awaiting for a changed world if we're waiting for a new millennium and we're waiting for a new era then maybe we're doing the wrong thing. We're waiting. It's like when when somebody once said it was not that good. 380 hours that was supposed to create a good day. In other words it is not that the artist created a picture with a picture of a Creator beyond it. Maybe we can afford to wait. We've got to do something about it. And that we can do some little things in ourselves and on our own because this is really the second aspect of the creative impulse of the
Creative our creative struggle. It seems to me that there's going to be some optimism in the creative person. He's got to believe that it's possible that change is possible that modification of the situation is possible. And if you don't have an optimistic view we don't think it's possible. And why should you want to struggle to create. Why should you want to do anything. So you need some optimism. It was what I said before you The VanGo said he feels that there is something alive inside of him that needs expression. And he can find a new pair to express it. This is part of what is creative work. So you need to have some optimism. It seems to me you also happen know yourself a little bit and you also have to be concerned more about yourself than about the other that doesn't mean you have no regard for the other. But it means that you don't have self consciousness but self motivation self
inspiration self determination self actualisation all these words which mean in some way that you are a kind of an independent person that you can use your self as the instrumentality for change of voice. You need some flexibility. You need a lot of coverage. Seems to me you need a lot of courage because whenever you go on to do creative things you gotta have the courage to face what's new. Then you always creates anxiety in us and unless we have some courage to take a chance to be adventuresome to go into the unfamiliar the likelihood is we'll never do anything creative. So we need some courage. We need to be willing to face uncertainty. We have to be able to face what we do not yet know and the criticism of those around us. I would like to repeat for you my earliest paid
for me creative work has something to do with the change of one's inner life not the change of the external world changing the external world may be a consequence of the change of the end of life. I would like to suggest for example that the war in Vietnam will never be solved. So long as we keep on talking about how do we increase bombs or how do we talk peace or whatever else was involved. But somewhere all of us and you have to change our in a feeling our in a conception are in a view of ourselves in a manner our whole commitment to what values are really good. I want to believe that's what values are about before we can solve a crisis in Vietnam because it doesn't agree our question of Vietnam it will be somewhere else because the crisis in the world outside it in part a consequence of the way in which we look at ourselves in the world around us in our picture of man. I
think we need a profound alteration of our in our life I don't have to do tonight for you and I was of the American community. I was talking of fresh fish out a while ago as to why we don't have a big audience as I used to have issues. My narcissism and I should you know my vanity. How come we have such a small group here. When she watched all the you know you have on the ballot you know underage so I said How come you want to talk to me Oh yeah for 500 Johnny said NPR heard about. The danger in the streets. I said no but I saw Jules Feiffer is one of the murders so I know something about the danger in the streets he says well there are dangers in the streets that you've been reading about it I don't know what the danger is from the rats coming out of the garbage you're from the rats coming out of coming out of the houses. But he says there is danger in the street. And I think I'll always be danger in the streets so long as we have got to be he cases where nobody
cares. You remember the girl of 38 people watched to be murdered. Nobody did any Nobody said anything. Everybody mind is own business. Well that's your business. That's your view of yourself and of man. So what I'm suggesting is we need a profound alteration of our in our lives. We've got to make some creative changes within us that's the creative act and the world outside will change or we'll change it because we have changed something about how we see ourselves and the other and the environment in which we share. It's a process not an in product creative work is an ongoing thing. It's synonymous with life and has to do with a growing evolving changing of developing a sense of self. And self organization in our organization. And it needs courage as I said it needs dedication it needs commitment.
It needs understanding it needs adventurism there's tolerance for uncertainty and a lot of other things like that. And I thought I could not close my discussion for the evening without giving you a little package to take off. I had a grandmother whenever we visit our grandmother every grandchild got a little package to take off. She said You will soon forget about what we talked about here this evening. But if you have this package you will remember to eat what I give you and she always gives a little back something and so I have learned from my grandmother that it's important if you come and ask to be added to the given that you will forget most of the things I have said I have often said this but I'll give you a little packet your take home and maybe you can never go on an on the subway on the way home. I would like to tell you a little bit about what you can do about being creative in your lives. I gave you a long speech about creativity and by the time I
got through you were all burnt down. You are loaded by creativity so you could become creative. She would get rid of the load and see what we can do. I'd like to tell you a little piece of research that was done about families so I think the source of creativity comes in the personal life. So I stop with the family I always go back to my family to see my my roots are in the family. That's where I was born I was born in Dixie I was born in the family. Anyhow. They did an interesting piece of research. They this will happen and it was out in California at the Family Research Institute in Palo Alto and they studied a large number of families and I'll tell you one to entertain you and I'll tell you what about about what I want to talk about tonight. I want to entertain you they studied a large number of families what they did was you brought mother father and child together
and they competed normal families with abnormal families in terms of who did the talking. So he took 40 normal families and took 40 abnormal families. What do you think we call an abnormal family. Very simple they said an abnormal family is one that has contact with. An abnormal family is one that has contact with psychiatry all the normal families one that did not have never had contact with psychiatry and the law. I like that combination psychiatry anyway and there's some interesting but this was their often very set of criteria so they took two week weighted sets of families groups of families for you know all of the families for the abnormal families equated for all of the purposes socio economic status and so on. It took these two sets of families and they put a lobby a microphone a microphone around the neck around the mother father and child in each of these eight dancers
and they recorded not what these people said. But who did the talking. That's all I want to put on a computer machine. Mama mama mama mama mama tragic. They don't even tell me all the first two small clash almost what they say they only want to know how many times in a given period. Mama taught papa talk a child talk. They want to see if they could distinguish if they could differentiate the so-called normal families from the abnormal families and this is mind you. Middle class American born American family now in a normal family. Oh do you think most I'd like to see some show of hands here. Mom. Joy-Ann right hands down. All right. Child showing it all right in a normal American family be found by his
recent research and I want to talk most frequently with him up as a normal American family. I want to have normal American family I want to see a show of hands how many think that a mom spoke most frequently in the abnormal American ham family. And up right and down. How many saw us most frequently in the abnormal American family I handed out the child and stuff. The answer is in the abnormal American family I want to only watch. So that doesn't distinguish a normal for an abnormal family obviously. How much you ask when you have a question postpone least frequently. Oh spoke at least frequently in the so called normal family Fama show hands off a child's
Johanne. I think it was in a normal family Faubus called police frequently. Now if you're so small on well you guessed it was off. How about we have normal American family and the abnormal American family who spoke at least frequently father showing. And now no child show hands. Well it happens that this was the crucial differentiating point that in the abnormal American family that child spoke least frequently. That the so-called normal American pattern is a mother speaks most frequently the child next and the father of it. That's the American model. And the abnormal family. The child spoke least frequently it was Mama and child in that order of frequency. Well I thought you'd like to hear this little bit of just entertain you with this little bit of research. And so this is they introduce this of a piece of research and I want to tell you.
They study these families for what was wrong with them when they came in with a problem we can't live together. We don't enjoy I want to know what he says he wants and she says she doesn't she's to die when he wants at least to die all of this kind of stuff you and all. They could never get together on every and anything everything may lead to some kind of a conflict. And they came to this institution for help. And part of getting help was that they would submit themselves to investigation. It would two very interesting find. One law that in every family there was a secret constitution a secret set of rules of the laws. I'm going to show them by law lords which determined how they would behave. Nobody ever verbalized it but everybody in the family behave accordingly that is. Father sits down first and has a dinner and then the kids can come in and the mother she
gets what's left. Off the cocktails in suburbia opera panned by the mother of the wife as all the not wife as the case may be. But there are rules very rigidly determined rules that nobody breaks that govern all family life. Wednesday night is my night out with the boys Thursday afternoon if you're a day old for that. And Friday night we always eat the same thing. Yes. Why because my grandmother prepared it for me on Friday night my mother made me fried and therefore you must prepare me on Friday night. But whatever the rules are we all live in a family they said. Every family and that we there are these rules are followed to a T and each one fights the other. If there is any modification of the rule. On the basis of their research they came up with the following simple suggestion
for how ready for counselling of a family that had trouble he said. Let's introduce some novelty into the situation. Break up the rigidity introduce flexibility introduce something novel even if it's so stupid and simple as you never take your wife out OK every Friday night you take in them. She always prepares the cocktails you prepare him on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Oh you always bring martinis. All right tomorrow you're going to have a mime at all. You always each separately. Tomorrow you eat together the whole family says Downey. Whatever it is introduce some novelty in their living together and then all hell breaks. I mean Americans want to be and then the whole family is this rabbit hole or legal game that they play breaks loose and suddenly you've discovered new variations they begin to get creative because and not bogged down by
the rigidity of the laws the legalities the mechanics of living with introducing novelty and the second thing I want you to take home and think about. I've already told you in this story and that is it can be very very small. Creative things never come about. Creative work creative products never come about if you want to change all the world. If it's an all or non proposition you will be absolutely incapacity to be creative. Creativity and the creative process as a developmental thing comes about on the basis of our willingness to be creative about small things in small amounts in little amounts. You don't have to paint the Empire State Building all the rooms. The Empire State Building or create a masterpiece. You can paint a masterpiece on a small piece of canvas. So in a family you don't have to chop want to change the whole
establishment. In a society you don't have to want to change the whole society to get it to move in a new direction. We can start it in small way in small operations. You don't have to change your whole house of it in order to have a new husband. You can get a new hazard if your child's bought with small changes. Or your wife. Small changes. That's a very important point because I think we all are non proposition which really is an impatience with the way of the world and with time that this impatience very often drives us into a great deal of difficulty zone. My second point in the package was to take it all with you first that you've got to have novelty into snobbery secondly because be very small and third tolerate the different. It is the intolerance of the different of the deviant of the change. I don't want to. Things are actually feels differently.
It's this intolerance that frequently destroys us. And the other. In fact I would think if you can analyze the war in Vietnam on the basis of our unwillingness to be tolerant of the different a mother is intolerant of the child because the child thinks like a child and a wife is intolerable because he thinks like a man and a man is intolerant of the woman because she's a woman. It is just intolerance of difference. So here you have a little package these three ideas. Take a moment you'll thank. And you heard Dr. Emmanuel K. Schwartz as he spoke on the topic of creativity normal or neurotic. Dr. Schwartz is dean of training at the Post Graduate Center for Mental Health in New York. This was another program in a series of peace love and creativity the hope of mankind. On our next program Esther Medicare and jump professor of psychology at the New York University Graduate School
will discuss creativity as conscious or unconscious activity. These programs are recorded at the Cooper Union in New York City by station WNYC. The series is made available to the station by the National Education o Radio Network.
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Peace, love, creativity: Hope of mankind
Creativity: Normal or neurotic?, part two
Producing Organization
WNYC (Radio station : New York, N.Y.)
Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
This program presents the second part of a lecture by Emmanuel Schwartz.
Series Description
This series presents lectures from the 1968 Cooper Union Forum. This forum's theme is Peace, Love, Creativity: The Hope of Mankind.
Media type
Producing Organization: WNYC (Radio station : New York, N.Y.)
Producing Organization: Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art
Speaker: Fairchild, Johnson E.
Speaker: Schwartz, Emmanuel
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 68-10-26 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:24:04
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Chicago: “Peace, love, creativity: Hope of mankind; Creativity: Normal or neurotic?, part two,” 1968-06-04, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed July 19, 2024,
MLA: “Peace, love, creativity: Hope of mankind; Creativity: Normal or neurotic?, part two.” 1968-06-04. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. July 19, 2024. <>.
APA: Peace, love, creativity: Hope of mankind; Creativity: Normal or neurotic?, part two. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from