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The drums grow the minds of men situation sex but herd are the. Cows that the silver candlesticks against the bone china. That's much more dramatic wouldn't you say so. No I think they look good anywhere. Mother what do you think. I think it's time you got yourself in the tub young lady. Kids calling for you at 7 What time is it. After six by my watch 10 I have to be exact my goodness I got today. I'm due home at 6. Thanks for the coffee Mrs. Turner and the cake. Oh no I nearly forgot. Tell Ted when he wants to talk to him. Well I'm I'm not seeing Ted tonight but I thought you I thought Mrs. Turner said Marcy. Of course you are dear don't you remember this afternoon on the phone you. There wasn't Ted Ted working tonight. That was Mr. Judson
Arthur Judson the man I worked with at Lardo was he's in town he asked me to have dinner with him and I am but well being married in two weeks Marcy we're not married now mother. Besides this dinner thing it's not. Mr. Judson was my boss. I know dear. But you just can't. People don't and even if we were married people don't own each other mother. Oh I know you and Dad one of you won't stir without the other but that's you. It's not Mary. Ted and I were different. We stifled shackled together like the Bobbsey twins. We've got to have a marriage we can move around where we're individuals with free will. Does Ted know you feel like when I'm sure he doesn't if he doesn't. Well it's well it's just a good time for him to find out the.
Radio-TV the University of Texas presents the minds of many. A series of explorations into effective living. Written by the Durham twins and directed by R. C. Norris. These programs are prepared by the assistance and counsel of the Hogg foundation for Mental Hygiene. And under a special grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. Their aim. A keener understanding of the forces universally at work and the minds of men. The old. School. That's a good word in our language. It bristles with the militants of patriots. It gleams with the gold of personal latitude. And we have invested every part of our lives in our urge for liberty.
Our conviction that there is no better fate than to stand on one's own two feet and order the man out of one's own life without help or hindrance from the baby fumbling his way to self help. I live on this I. Been down do you read law says this man can't feed himself. To the school youngster loudly assuring her fidgety peers. Yeah. Oh. We urge our fledglings bit by bit toward the ultimate goal and dependence and we look upon dependency as something left in the use behind something to be avoided if possible in the years ahead. But we do not look with clarity. For if we did we would recognize dependency as an end escapable part of every human
relationship we would accept dependency as a token of life's more rewarding aspects. To reexamine dependency for what it is and what it can mean in a healthy mature relationship we offer today's seeming paradox free. Big guy Big Smokey letters about a foot high. I wrote Marsha Blackwell target. Oh I thought Ted would fly at the man's got a right to flip he bankrupt himself on a honeymoon that his bride grabs a candle to sign a name on a bistro wall and Ben go he's single again. Well you didn't leave it that way. I want to you there was room to add Ted's last night
our last night to Ed Livingston and you couldn't erase it just smears but Ted fixed it he's a genius. How was that genius. I did what any gentleman would have done to you. I saved her good name I signed Theodore Turner. Bill now that calls for a toast to the newly married turners let's make a toast of the not so newly married turners After all that's their name and this is their 26 anniversary. Why how now. Of course Happy Anniversary Mr. and Mrs. Turner. May all the others be happy ones. Well thank you. Thank you all. There is the low. See behave yourself. What are you talking about Mars mother and daddy spatial look. It's just I don't know when they look at each other that special way the rest of the world kind of fades out and they're there in a little room all by themselves. Yes some of our daughter's fantasy Ted you'll get used to it it's not a fantasy it's kind of a a force that flows between them.
Well Martha has always claimed anybody who got in the way would get electrocuted. All I know is I wish I had a room like that. They come out looking mighty refresh refreshed enough to get up from the table anyway. Why don't you all scoot to the living room and I'll bring the coffee. No you won't. Not with us. Active young matron's around. And our mates. Can't we duck this detail Livingston you can't goldbrick you come along with Marcy and me and carry the tray. Ted can go on with Mr. and Mrs. Turner and tell them how you are. That's a dreadful tear and I don't think I want to hear about it. I used to be in her myself when she was little regularly whether peach trees which is that or fraud I can't remember he ever lifted a hand to Marcy in his whole life. Now that won't ruin my disguise if I smoke my pipe. Be with you in a day if it's all a stand there by your desk.
You know speaking of switches and spared rods and things Ted I'm afraid we've passed on to you a daughter who has her own ideas about things like my women of spirit mother Turner. I'm sure you do. But Marcy May take a little jam. If our little boy had lived but she's been reared as an only child and makes a difference so they tell me what six of us kids in my family though it is just hearsay. Well have patience with your tail. Mars is a sweet child. Her instincts are sound but she needs a lot of the things you can give her a lot more than I can give her I'm afraid mother turn on an intern's take on I've got a little money slaves on this summer but we've got to cut it mighty close. He knew all there Ted and that's what she chose. It's the other things I'm talking about. I know I know what you mean because it works both ways. It'll make all the difference for me having Marcin just being there knowing she's pulling for me.
I never had anybody just entirely for me before Mother Turner. And now you know I have those too with their heads together. I am afraid you have a rival on your hands Martin it looks like a boy's best friend is his wife's mother. That's not the way I heard it. Authority what is tray Mr. Attorney writing on the table here you that coffee smells good. Well thank you so much. Children this is love. Poor mother. Goodness I am being pampered. I think then if you excuse me for just a minute after I got to take yours. I don't remember you taking one after dinner. Oh thank you thank you very much. You see they were gone really. Mother's Day she forgot her pills bad shows up with the box. Now if she'd felt chilly he'd have come in with her wool stove and clairvoyants in the family it's always been like that when one of them wants anything or needs anything there is the other one just with it it's a kind of
communication of the spirit like a sail or ROSE You make us sound so creepy. Well you know mother if you'll forgive me it is kind of creepy. I'm just not sure I want to be that close to anybody you surrender too much of yourself. I don't agree I think it. Well no you don't all men think the first thing you know. Marcy could zero in on how much money you had in your pants pocket. Whew for heaven's sake Lance you're not going to be any secret not for the next year or so anyway. Speaking of secrets and money and the next year or so I've got one that nobody here knows not even Ted. I've got a job a job honey what kind of a job in Houston they're building a new luxury hotel there and Largo's has a decorating contract. Remember when I had dinner with Arthur Judson mother when you raise such a fuss. Well we talked it all out then I'm to do finish sketches for room interiors how it's work I love and the pay is beautiful. With us in Houston Marcy. Well we live in Galveston or we will be getting in September but
of course silly. But I'll just be in Houston four days a week and home the rest of the time. You'll be at the hospital or stuck in a book you won't even know I'm gone. Of course you will Marci. Ted need you there with his mother he does and you don't know how. Fifth wheel and in turn the wifey. And instead of grouping around all bored and lonesome and weepy eyed Who needs a wife like that I'll be out of Ted's hair doing something stimulating and creative and making money besides. What do you say to that Daddy that's not fair that's like asking one family's twin how it feels that our believing the other it doesn't know would never hand is if there has some cases to go over at home mother stays in So. If she has some sewing that brings these cases they've depended on each other utterly. Always and that's fine if you want it that way. After you've tried something else but they haven't. And how can you know till you've tried it. How can you know. 0 0. 0 0 0 0.
And you know my dear I'm not a stranger to that question. I lived with it for so long. Ate with it slept with it heard it ticking on the clock. I sat with it in a porch swing marcy on a lovely night in me with your father beside me. And that question rising up between us like oh. But how can you know do these That's what I keep asking myself over and over and over again. How can you know where you are. You just do care. Oh I'm terribly fond of you do you know. Fons too pale a word much too pale. You are so very special to me. Much more special than anybody's ever. That's it that's what I mean but it's not enough do you. I don't think it's enough when you're in love if you're in love you want. Well that's what you want or it's supposed to be. And what do you want.
I want to be me. Yes. Can you understand that. Yes. Yes I think I can just me. Catherine Arnold has got the job she's always wanted missed doing it all by herself on her own. Well what's wrong with Catherine Turner doing that job. They're not somebodies Why is that so bad well it's not the same. We can make it the same can't you know we should know an analysis and then just a minute. I'm not a possessive man cared not that way. I want you to be you. It's not just me. You have ties do you yes responsibilities you each owes so much to the OB that not if you don't want it that way kid. Not in this day and time. You looked airiest. We're not ball and chain people this is 19 and 30 marriage isn't a prison. A slave state. Not anymore. It's a partnership between two people to equal partners.
Got to be free. Julius free to go my own way. You will be cared. I. Promise you on my solemn honor. I just I just want you just dart from where I am. That's aw. Well. I. How can you know till you've tried I know you tried but we did try Marcy. Your mother and we gave it a good big brave. You're all alone here. Yes I'm kind of a brief Logar you're not Meryl Yes I married very much your wife is amazing. Don't try to figure them out Pamela gets power from me and she's just gone up to me and when she gets back you will probably be GONNA JUMP THE
NEEDLE now and then you know they're utterly devoted and I don't know. You look dreadful Catherine. I'm worried about Dickie mother. He's losing weight. He won't eat and he's breathing that funny way all the time now and I. Well I'm just not satisfied with what Dr Graham is doing what does Junior say deer doesn't and I haven't talked to Julius about it mother. He's right in the middle of that Evans trial. I don't think it's fair to burden here in ham. Catherine take years Julia's child too you know. I know but this is my problem. The trouble is I want to give up my job and stay home and take care of Dickie. But I think we need a specialist and specialist cost money and if I quit work we've haven't got that kind of money.
Well I've just got to make up my own mind this is my decision. It is not your decision. Wake up child. This is cruelty Catherine not kindness. Cruelty to your self-centered Julius. You must share this thing. You can't take it on yourself. Well maybe I can't but I think I can. And I've got to try. Mother I've got to try. We did. You should've seen us trying so hard to be free ourselves. Trying so hard to set each other free so bravely. Marcy and the baby done. Never a word of how when you're 14. Never a word of what we feared or hope for you just to bring you the new Mensa paid people to cry their own secret two years
ago our lonely ways and so considerate of each other. Alarm that over do it with a plane at 7:00 it's time for breakfast and a drive to the airport. Take it over here but there's no need to get you. Of course I get up I'm going to drive you nonsense you're only morning to sleep late before you plunge into that Goldsmith Well you've got to get up I'll be sleeping late every morning for three whole weeks. Nobody stirs at Janet's to practically new. You're sure this trip's all right for you. Cool or silly I'm strong as an ox and I feel I can't. Don't go don't go. You mean not to Jan. But you. I'm a selfish lout cat. I just can't go out anymore not alone not all by myself but you would this goaltimate thing you said you'd be busy night and day for that was
because I didn't want you to feel tied here not by me when everything every hour of the day hammers at you. But Dickie do you feel that way too. What do you think I am kidding. But you never you don't you haven't even said his name have you. I couldn't I was afraid to. Oh I've been holding on so hard so hard. I know dear I know and I thought if I got away where I wouldn't know where there wouldn't be me along with everything else you've got to think of. I haven't got anything else can it. I'm not enough by myself not like you like me. One day the doctor came in and told us I thought. Be strong for her now she's going to need you to be strong. And then you. You didn't even look at me. You turned and went out to the children's ward and you. You sang to the other
children and you played with them. I knew then you would always be enough for yourself. But I'm not. I wasn't. That's why when you don't you see. Because if I'd stayed there one minute wasn't single minute. I'm not strong. Julie is not at all. Although there have been so many times when I wanted to come running straight for you. Yeah I used to that I used to talk a lot about freedom about going my own way. It's a lonely way Jew. And you're not really free not really this other way. What you did when you said kids don't go that's when you're free free you don't need to go to each other with that need to say what it is to say I'm heartbroken consume me try to comfort me. And we get lost and
confused. Give me your strength. But I should have let you go. No I shouldn't hold you. No don't you see my dearest when you're free to need each other to admit that you need the going or staying isn't important it's not it's not an issue. That's a kind of independence that food as the kind we thought we wanted that pig headed insistence on not seeking and not being sought. But you know you hamstring yourself with that kind of freedom because the first thing you know it's just. Shackle that keep you from holding out your arms to somebody you.
Know all to discuss dependency. Here are Dr. Bernice Moore consultant and home and family life education for the Texas Education Agency and the Hogg foundation for Mental Hygiene. I'm Dr. Henry Moore a professor of sociology at the University of Texas. You know this is sort of a tricky script as I see it this matter of dependency and dependency the idea that they feathered all of the furry site and I would agree with the general development. Secondly I think this matter of working out the proper relationship between the husband and wife makes all the difference between a successful marriage and divorce. But I'm I'm not quite sure about this matter of it being necessary for the wife to give up a
career in order to attain that relationship. I have the feeling you are right that of basically what we were hearing is an attempt to person to work out their sharing relationship. You know this is a particular portrayal of that. It seemed better perhaps from the point of view of the couples for that relationship to have the woman in the home as a homemaker sharing with her husband. However that doesn't say that the sharing relationship in marriages has to be worked out on the basis of the woman as the homemaker. Well I didn't quite see. How the woman giving up her job giving up a career in either case there's a great deal to some of the problem we're
facing. It is it seems to me that sharing is the important thing. In every marriage that is successful it seems to me there are two distinct personalities. Reply with these words that we've been using two independent personalities living in her dependent you know and I think that it is this our allowance for our independence of personality or uniqueness of personality which ad revenues that Yaz the dropping of the fat ass which gives the freedom to work at how the interdependence and it is not as I was afraid and got an implication of the fact that one is dependent on the other which makes for success. Because it's true that society
depends for its very existence on the pendants. You were just talking about if we went into dependent one on the other then we would have anarchy. I'm not very good at Scripture. But isn't there something to the effect that no man lives unto himself alone. Yes and about the interdependence that we're discussing here. Well you mean Nero's that each of us in marriage in our working jobs in our community relationship and our citizenship. Each of us brings a distinctive personality into either a complimentary relationship or a secular matter Iwan that we add to what another has in the relationship. All we undergird it and become as we become dependent upon others. We aren't able to make the unique contribution of
which we I alone am capable. Well of course this goes still further into our whole theory of personality. Yeah yeah that my personality is a product of those with whom I live. Now I bring this distinctive ness into a marriage relationship. And whether we succeed or whether we do not in what Masai was not sure she could make with Ted. I wanted to avoid. With Tad which is this submergence of personality. Yes. Whether we're submerged or whether we are allowed to grow and to develop depends upon what we mean by interdependent. And I think this is where we get off on this dependency vs. interdependence as they were saying it in their particular roles. Well certainly for the gal not wanting to become
dependent on her husband in the sense of becoming a pale carbon copy or something of that sort. Or a yes woman. You know it's true of course that we are dependent upon others from the time we are born certainly had both we are and this matter of growing up of developing a personality it seems to me is simply a matter of shifting dependence from our parents to playgroups to our age mates to the community to society. That is this ideal This allusion to independence that maybe Marcy had in the back of our head before her marriage is a beautiful illusion but it's still an illusion. It's simply a matter of whom we are dependent. We could almost say that one of the jobs of maturity is the accepting of dependency gracefully and
I hope yes I would say that realizing that what we are dependent upon others and what they do for us and what we do. And also you see what would happen if we ever attain this other freedom. Chaos well on the other hand suppose that we should become a perfectly I just did it to each other what happened in that case. The other extreme. Well they would have no problem with certainly if not fail that way would depend up on anybody. We would do what we were supposed to do I guess because we thought we ought to do it. I think they had all right said this probably as beautifully as anyone ever has and that is to hold one. Thank you Mr. That's a beautiful way to put it. Fettered are the free one of a series of explorations into effective living
titled the minds of men. A presentation of radio television at the University of Texas taking part in the discussion in today's broadcast where Dr. Bernice Moore consultant and home and family life education for the Texas Education Agency and the Hogg foundation for Mental Hygiene and Dr. Harry Moore professor of sociology at the University of Texas. These programs were prepared for broadcast under the supervision of Robert F. trying to. Measure music by Eleanor paid. Ellen Morton and Bruce Roche were heard as good and you'll use. A series narrator moves on law. Andy cork speaking. This program is distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters.
Minds of men
Fettered are the free
Producing Organization
University of Texas
KUT (Radio station : Austin, Tex.)
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University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
Dependency as an inexcapable part of every human relationship.
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A series of explorations into effective living, combining dramatizations with commentary.
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Actor: Morton, Helen
Composer: Page, Frances Eleanor
Director: Norris, R.C.
Narrator: Law, Mouzon
Producing Organization: University of Texas
Producing Organization: KUT (Radio station : Austin, Tex.)
Speaker: Cook, Andy
Speaker: Moore, Bernice Milburn, 1904-
Speaker: Moore, Harry E.
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 58-5-6 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:28:18
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Chicago: “Minds of men; Fettered are the free,” 1958-01-01, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed October 23, 2021,
MLA: “Minds of men; Fettered are the free.” 1958-01-01. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. October 23, 2021. <>.
APA: Minds of men; Fettered are the free. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from