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Oh and. I don't want to blag that case more than any other what we're trying to do with Scottish education these days is to is it to make education relevant to young people to provide an education that makes sense. To young people. That was a statement by one of Scotland's outstanding educators. And this is the fifth in our reports from Glasgow. Today we continue our exploration of this country's educational system in the last programme. We were concerned with the history and the present operation of Scottish education as explained by Professor Stanley Nisbet dean of arts at Glasgow University. We will hear from Professor Elizabeth briefly again today. One of the questions raised by Professor Elizabeth and many Scottish people with whom I have talked is whether Scotland has in recent years been resting too much on past laurels and education. Has the system been too slow to change. And how much is being done at present to bring it up to date. One of the major
problems associated with such change these are the major questions for consideration in today's programme when we will hear from two of Scotland's educators. One of the most dynamic educational leaders in this country is Dr Stuart McIntosh director of education of the Glasgow City schools whose voice you heard at the beginning of this program. He as I am energetic and vital person and he is very much alive to current needs and education. As we listen now to excerpts from comments which I recorded in his office I think you will share my impression that here is a man of action and one who understands the need for change. In order to put his later comments in the right perspective let's hear first what he has to say about about past developments in education here. Education is an ancient activity in Scotland and we think we're not going to want to. It goes
back many many centuries. But it wasn't until about 1872 with that it was made compulsory every child in the land to attend school. Now in our Scottish educational system was cradled in the church. And it remained there for many centuries. In 1870 to how it was changed from the charge controller to state control. But I like your tour to emphasize this point that it developed in response to public demand. It's a highly Democratic. There's a long tradition of teacher training too that goes back way to 18 37 to a man Stowe. Who started all this training business the universities the goal has been the goal of the schools and Devers traditionally in Scotland. Teachers are well qualified academically and the comparatively well qualified professionally to the minimum period of training for our
teachers who do not go to universities was two years for many many many many years right up to nine thousand twenty five. And since 1925 it has been three years that's the minimum it can be for now a graduate has to train a university graduate to train five for a year. And that has been going on for. The whole of this century. Now these are the strengths of our system. Now the weakness is it was narrow. Academic. Not much was done for the known academic pupils. We reckon that these academic pupils represent something up about 65 percent of an age group. And the kind of education the U.S. young people got was very often a pale reflection of the kind of education suited to the academic pupils. Of Scottish education to which have been all thought of telling them. You know we're Scottish Education Department in bed but are laid down but not
too Natalie. But generally laid down say the basis on which education should be provided and this authoritarianism one to the school boards and to the school board to the dominator now Domini is an interesting way. He's a dominant person he's a lordly person by the way he didn't get a lovely salary but still he dominated the situation. About 5 percent of our young people went to universities now that's may seem to you rather small. But for the time I'm thinking our Scottish education in the past that probably was the highest percentage of an age group going to university in any country in the world. Now there are those who are not completely neglected I mean those who didn't go to university. And many many of the people who went became technicians and craftsman. And these technicians are Cosman have been famous throughout the world and gone to every corner of it where you've got a Scottish engineer as well as a professionally trained Scotsman in every corner of the land. And now let's listen to further comments by Dr McIntosh as he points out
some of the other strengths and weaknesses of Scotland's present educational system. I mentioned authoritarianism a few moments ago. Now that's well on its way out. Teachers have it having more scope to express themselves creatively. And this said authoritarianism that is going out as released out reservoir of goodwill and good sense on the part of teachers. And their Reeve has really revitalized our educational system and brought a new sense of purpose into the classrooms. More going to universities now than ever before. The numbers have doubled. About 10 percent of an age group. And of course there's more universities. We had traditionally for something like 400 years or so. Scotland had four universities within the last two years this number has gone up to eight double the figure. And there's a great deal of questioning about the curriculum. The traditional equip curriculum new ideas are current in our schools working
party is our teachers are here and there and everywhere are looking at the content and the method often putting that content across to young people. Now this is highly highly of the situation. And I perhaps of this one to symbolize it is more than any other what we're trying to do a Scottish education these days is is this. To make education relevant to the needs of our young people to provide an education that makes sense. To our young people for example in their primary school now that's from the age of 5 to 12. We've got mathematics as a beta thing. The private school also sides and we've also got this wonderful thing educational television with good lessons and private school French and I don't know what in the next two years we'll be doing a great many more than a secondary school that's from roughly from 12 years of age to 18. There's a new mathematics and thus new physics physics as I do come astray. There's an emphasis on that all aspects of
languages. Like French and German and so on and now we're trying to do something to meet the needs of those 65 percent of our young people who are not academically inclined. The conditionally biased subjects are coming in like a crafts engineering a hay collector the installation means there's a great many things like nursing and home craft and so on. And then about the buildings since they are the second the Arctic example in Glasgow we have a hundred and sixty new buildings and this is going on apace. We think there's too much glass in them and so on but there are bright and airy and reflect much more of what. The kind of thing we're trying to do in our Scottish educational system. Our older buildings used to be patterned on the classic pussy article model the narrow Lancet windows rather dim and really just light about the place but now this is gone and this is gone and happily to now read about the weaknesses because there are weaknesses and a
very serious one in the present situation shortage of teachers especially mathematics and physics teachers. And with and then happy aspect of the situation is that there is no solution that we can see on the horizon at all. Because industry and commerce are various and there are various other competing agencies for the comparatively few people with an university education and training. Now we meet in Glasgow. Twelve hundred teachers. SCOTT Now Scott and I reckon leaves about 5000. Glasgow represents about a fifth of the population of the whole of Scotland. Now the losing of the school leaving age is going to take place in 1970 and that's going to be the Glasgow an additional thousand cows. So this is going to be that will be 2200 teachers shot in Glasgow and you can multiply that by five to get the situation in Scotland.
What about change and development in the future. Here are some of the needed changes as seen by Dr McIntosh. Because our most Clement need quite a set and is more teachers to which I've already referred and more teachers appropriate training to meet the needs of the world around us. Teachers trained to provide an education of the whole person. Who will need to live and work in a society beyond our imagining. We were also to think very seriously of in-service training not just here there now and again but something consistent persistent and comprehensive because the world of affairs is changing and education reflects the society and it should be changing with it. We must get away from the stereotype in content and the method and the textbook as a kind of looseleaf textbook we should be using now to meet an ever changing situation. Now we also to we have to get him to have a look again
at the teaching force. At the schools. We at one time in Scotland we had a teacher and no one about here about. Then we got janitors and then we got chemical systems. We got various exhilarates like laboratory assistants and so on. We needed a great many more because the education I was trying to deal with the Who. I was always on the health side when a chemical sign and head would you take advantage of this machine age and get computers into our educational system to take away the grand jury off kind tables and suchlike. Buildings must be much more imaginative be imaginative be conceived with room for development and growth. Architects tend to or provide you with a building that reflect the kind of school that they were in when they were young boys don't realize that education is growing and developing the art to be planning with that and might. See the present building say or
reflect the outlook of a generation ago. We need much more flexibility and there we must next point we must realize and practice that education is for every child the educator should be impartial. I'd like to emphasize this why we should build our house ourselves up such words as poor are we. People in our vocabularies as educators we're impossible it's our job to make the best of what it's in each child to be. Now for example we have four period in Scotland here. We have attached too much importance to porters to certain facets of education. Like for instance intelligence quotient very valuable in itself as an aid. To any IQ IQ. God has a description just like you typed it is weight and not as a reproach. Now has education. This is the first time I've used further education there's this term in our family education has always been
in out of schools in the evening and half are adults and so on. But now we're realizing that we must do a great deal more much been done more still to do it to do with must think of education as being a continuous process. Yes from the child time the child is born perhaps before I don't know. But that child is educated in this family and society comes to school then at five in Scotland. And of course you get a more formal aspect of this educational process a process that all of these various forces the Home Society in the school should be working with each other and education is something which goes on from if you like say birth to the other extreme. Now there's no age. Upper age limit. And then we should think of education for business. And for. Leisure. Only as business technical education because our future prosperity as a nation depends on our excellence of our schools and our professional abilities.
That is necessary. A man is made to work to big work but also he has a life of his own his own so there must be done something for the human personality. I should like to emphasize there. I'll give you the question of these two things are completely separate because we're thinking in terms of our whole personality one merges with the other. Education should be developing the whole personality our educational system at best is very very good indeed. In most countries but only a few went dry the best we can give. And we have to extend this best to the many so that every child may attain his own best his or her excellence whatever his capacity. Now just one Brad I haven't mentioned that I mentioned the home but not with a great deal of emphasis now. I kind of believe that will make any significant step forward in education. But young people attend rate unless we have the full cooperation of the home. We may get.
Away with it if we were right to an attempt at education has been largely a matter of the mind alone. But in the realm of physical well-being even more of the child's character and spiritual development. The home influence is of paramount importance. We should think of education as a large scale cooperate in every. Home Society and school working together with a view to enabling each child. To make the best of what's in him to be introspective of the talents which the Creator has given him I'm just one right in closing on this. And our Scottish educational system already left talons was rather restricted. It was really that politically to pass examinations in bookish a subject that tended to be all that been good or bad done by men and women in our schools spar children our school personalities. But now we're realising this as
our challenge to all of us in the educational field. The comments what you just heard were those of Dr. Stuart Mackintosh director of education of the Glasgow schools. One of the more interesting developments in higher education during my stay here has been the controversy over what constitutes a modern university. The controversy has arisen primarily out of the elevation to university status of some institutions devoted previously and primarily to technology. Also in the picture is the establishment of several new universities in the country. The older and more traditional universities of Glasgow Edinburgh St Andrews and Aberdeen have maintained the four traditional faculties namely the vanity arts law and medicine. The principal and vice chancellor of St Andrews University sort of Malcolm Knox maintains that no institution which does not possess the fourth faculties
mentioned could properly be called a university. The word University he says is losing all precise meaning by being used to describe institutions of a very different kind. He strongly opposes the trend which would equate the universities with technical colleges where the function of turning out larger numbers of trained personnel. Commenting on Malcolm's claims the principal and vice chancellor of the recently elevated Strathclyde University in Glasgow Dr Kearns said recently and I'm quoting we have heard all this before and I am really rather tired of hearing it expressed by Sir Malcolm. Frankly said Dr. Cairnes we would not want to be called a university if the definition of the university is the one made by Sir Malcolm. The viewpoint of many Scottish educators is that Scotland desperately needs people trained in technology to maintain the country's wealth
wealth that could support the traditional universities in spite of this controversy. New universities are now being established and others planned and with a broader concept of what such an institution should be. Contrast of the old and the new in the Scottish education manifests itself in many other ways. You have already heard that the separation of academic and nonacademic peoples are pupils rather at age 11 or 12 is being challenged and has resulted in strong trends toward comprehensive secondary schools. More nearly like our American high school also in the city of Glasgow one can find some of the most modern school buildings to be found anywhere and yet nearby are some of the most ancient. A writer in a Scots magazine deplores the building situation in the following words I'm quoting. There are still too many children
forced to spend their days in bleak soul destroying Victorian mausoleums of Dick sunny and gloom. Well I have listed many of these buildings and I agree but I would also emphasize that much is being done to correct this unhappy situation. Well now we hear again from Professor Nesbitt as he summarizes some of the changes underway in Scottish education and some of the major problems. So many changes are taking place at the moment. It's hard to single out the important ones. Probably. The biggest change of all. Is something which is common to almost every country in the world both. Developed. And developing countries. What is being called the Education explosion. The fact that larger numbers of people are being educated a much bigger number of pupils. Are. Staying on at school
far far less. And in some cases higher education. Rather than leave. Their statutory school leaving age. And Scotland's no exception. Their number of pupils. Who stay on beyond. Statutory leaving age of 15 has increased enormously. In the last. In the last 10 years especially perhaps since about 1950. And. The number of those who are clamoring for entry to technical colleges here. Teacher training colleges universities. And various. Vocational courses. Now that education is the truth. I think Pete. This is. One of. The biggest. Then. That's our quantitative change. If one was looking down for the biggest qualitative change. I think one would find it.
In the way in which new subjects and new ways of treating school subject and new techniques and methods have been developed. With the kind that. For instance. That the teaching of modern languages. Has. Undergone quite a revolution. And whereas. Previously that if you study to start farming which is. In the primary school below the age of 12. Now a very large number of countries children. Have their instruction in a foreign language. At an earlier age. And their methods of teaching me I've been through. In addition to that we have. Sand. And mathematics for young children. And not just in the secondary schools. And there I'd be. Maddie's about teaching. Mathematics. Have undergone it. Revolution
too in this country as you know. In fact the new mathematics as it's called is so different from the old that some of the older teachers find it hard to keep pace with new developments. Oh and then of course there are new techniques such as programming learning. And particularly here in Glasgow. Closed circuit television. In Glasgow we have our. Complete network closed circuit network. Where which allows schools to receive mainly intension mathematics. Given from a central studio and here in the university we have our first. Television Service which is developing and dear old paper promise for the future. These are interesting qualitative changes and then if one was looking at the administrative scene. And if one asks What is that. The
most important administrative change taking place. I would say it was the one to which I acted badly or the fact that. Secondary educational system is growing more and more comprehensive every move is in the direction of. Breaking down and segregation breaking down screaming and making schooling more comprehensive. You know I would say that the. Changes that strike me as being withdrawn and then finally what are some of the more serious problems now facing Scotland's schools. There's no doubt about the biggest one. Stuffing. Shortage of teachers. This is an extremely serious problem more serious in some parts of the country than in others. Here in Glasgow and so to say the problem is extremely cute. Fish are. Such a shortage of. Well I'm excited to start.
That. Committee after Committee. Authority after 30 racks its brains to find some way of meeting the problem. Scholarships and. Down us. To enable people to train as teachers. Next time just once in this way and the next. B I've always have produced more teachers but not enough to meet the education explosion. And. The authorities and the heads of schools are extremely what it. About. Commitment. By the government to raise school leaving age to 16. In 1970. They are asked. If. We. Haven't enough teachers to start the schools as they are. How are we going to face.
A. Large increase in the school. Relation particularly. Since. Some of the pupils who are staying on to 16. Will be staying on reluctantly and they would have to leave school and take some employment. 15. And it may provide some. Disciplinary problems. However I am not talking about disability problems at the moment I'm talking about the shortage of staff. This is. The most acute. Problem and if. Some people are saying. Quite openly. Much to the indignation of. The teachers are medications. That. The Scottish. Traditional insistence. On. A very high academic. Level of qualification for all teachers. Is too much of a luxury to go on with English realistic world. And that less well
qualified teachers will have to be accepted to. Even Understand. Teachers don't like this at all and to. Extremely angry at the thought of what they call dilution. And. Profession. That. They're. Whether they're coming in can be sought in any other way. They say something and I can tell. There is a hope that we might be able to make up for their producing stand ups. Mirror and it may be that we have to make more use. Teaching of series Some start. Older work which does not predict. Academic qualifications. I myself think this is the only way of solving the problem. That. You are the problems and that is the big one.
This has been the fifth in a series of reports from Glasgow Scotland today. You have heard comments on Scottish education by two leading educators Dr Stuart Mackintosh director of education of the Glasgow City schools. And Professor Stanley Nisbet dean of arts Glasgow University. In the next programme you will hear how education television being used in the schools colleges and universities will last. Week. On the. Co-op. This is where your hearing was called.
This has been a production of The Ohio State University telecommunications center. This program was distributed by a national educational radio. This is the national educational radio network.
Amang the Scots
More about education
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WOSU (Radio station : Columbus, Ohio)
Ohio State University
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University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
This program continues to discuss the state of education in Scotland. It features an interview with Dr. Stewart MacIntosh, director of education of the Glasgow City Schools.
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A documentary series about modern Scotland.
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Host: Goldovsky, Boris
Interviewee: MacIntosh, Stewart
Producing Organization: WOSU (Radio station : Columbus, Ohio)
Producing Organization: Ohio State University
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University of Maryland
Identifier: 67-26-5 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
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Duration: 00:29:29
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Chicago: “Amang the Scots; More about education,” 1967-07-06, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed July 25, 2024,
MLA: “Amang the Scots; More about education.” 1967-07-06. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. July 25, 2024. <>.
APA: Amang the Scots; More about education. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from