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Voices of Europe produced and recorded by Milton Mayer in cooperation with the University of Chicago under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. And now Milton Mayer under a truck may of France is was rather a country parson at Le Shambo a village in the industrial area of the 07 in southeast France. Bastard truck May was in addition founder of an independent school there but call age 7 0. And in addition he was the husband of mine truck May and the father of a happy and virtuous thing a boy. Then something happened in the lives of the truck maze and then many other lives which shattered a great many
happy and virtuous patterns and preconceptions. And it is a bug that's something that I have come to talk with a pastor a truck may and this was. The little perishable shell ball is still there and so is the co-owner seven all but the truck maze live now in Versailles where I am talking with them today and where they direct them as old I reckon seriously on the House of reconciliation and serve jointly as the international secretaries of the Fellowship of Reconciliation. M. truck made for him did you learn the more I think and do not know when and then to speak and these have been in because they were about me and him and plastered trucking.
When did you learn to like the truth. I was asked to write a book so it brought a little truck. Were you very good at lying as I did not think so but I think because I have been good and happy to lie they always say that I should live but they didn't have time. So a really big step even now understand very well work is cool. Sometimes you have to be polite and you lie and sometimes you have power when you receive a visit and you live because you see that you are very happy to welcome your friends so i believe me step in now. When I was a child it was even worse because how did you know that the grown ups were long for instance that I have the latest development center that means that if somebody comes another home and they read caster truck your lawn has a child on the other and of course this
was in France. There may be a cultural difference. You're lying or you think of self defense figures for all their bills or your resume. But I was writing it because they were the strongest among my brothers and therefore I was trying to make myself feel a little prick to let myself become very good at. No I don't think he would time me very badly but it was what happens when you
work out kind of where one of a story would be caught me because you believe in your confessed to him a Christian he wouldn't believe you know you didn't like that you have been very that against one of my truck may what happened when you're in L.A. when you were caught lying. No really really good to see I had a really creative depletion and was changing all the time. The person who are taking care of me my mother was there and sometimes a fireman's and time in me sometimes a man was there and taking care of me and him everyday nor needed occasional thought so by myself I understood that lying was not nice
because I was too proud to do. When I did it I knew it was not the way I was bad and I think I was cruel about it. Looking back you think that it was worth but it was worth it. And it really was worth at least that when I had to lie to head by the people. Are you advocating drop the children. Listeners should live as often as much and as well as possible. Because in later life perhaps they will be able to use lying in order to help other people. No I do not think civil in their ideal Nightline always was considered magnificence into the domesticated he may live. It is good to me to night to night to help other people and I'm sure a deaf guy because necessary. And it has nothing to do with education because a realization a door and your line was bad and
that when you became too like you had better be very living and not want to prevent other people but to have selves and children because you can lie will to an action when you have nothing to eat and when you try to get some variations that you are not allowed to give his line and when you open your door to do we suppose not to exist in your line. And when you have to provide a false belief or thought best for somebody who is hiding he was there because the Germans wanted to kill him. Yeah I was online so it didn't happen this time very well where is the where is the brother pastor Kruk may understand better than you do how you ask him. I think Pastor truck was a really useful to you. We do literary talk with
very success. We all know we all know you mean in a sense because if you imagine you know you. And therefore you know moving people while you're confident situation fails. So human evil. But the problem is that in one case I was in the hands of the police expecting to be all about me and I knew that if I was wrong. But pardon me passed a truck there when I was causing all during the German every day on Europe
and while it was sitting in the van all of it. Was praying and decided in my own heart that they would. Life saved. Because this was my life. But few weeks before that I did not get to see other people's lives because in this case what is my right is speaking out. The so-called easy easy thing for me please do go away and this is very very easy for me save my own life my own security. But I'm sending him to death very raw and in the end.
Using the wrong way we see what we find in saying this man is still there why are we having this board. How do you know he wanted. I'm simply giving this new nickname. And why not. What is the right of modern government in the name of the so-called truth and death because you are new. I don't know what is right. Government death and not because he's a criminal because you belong to a race that will. Lie in my eyes can be a protection of that
man against excessive authority by the mother. I wonder about a truck where I understand your rather than you're correct place. Well two points first it is the state which is really guilty of the law of the year more hourly. But then there's this guilt on the part of the state compels the individual also to indulge in what is literally a law here or in the war on this is this is the first point where I want to be sure I'm clear on. And the second point. Perhaps it is better to Angelina as fine to the razor. You know it is murder because you see now we are sitting around the feeble and we discuss what is true and what is life. And maybe we are seeing interesting things in maybe we are seeing
no anthems. But when that other plans are viewing the world you will have somebody who knows that you're done and that the sample gun Zenon scenes you know I have legal staff will after my kids and if you do not believe me I'm going to be killed there and then you will be done in the main game scene and afterward going to the police and ask you if somebody had been there you know to down and think if you're going to see the truth of the group alive you seem to say that you have not been in the house. And perhaps this person is normal there because the person is going away with a back door. But you it is not a lot of it you may feel as a rule when you have time and where you will be. But when you were you were in a great difficulty you didn't realize what you are seeing. You just go ahead and do what it has to be done immediately. And when this man comes in your home if you stay in your home for a while he must eat and he has no papers to be able to eat because
it will in the world time a week when all players had it for every day a little piece of paper for me the little piece of political struggle and this man is not only a piece of paper and he has no invention and so you have to provide twelve cards for him and the false name. And if you need to have a cause care so you make a picture for him and then you invent a name for him and then a friend of yours claims are and then makes a point but if you the only combination between yourself and your friends and it is online if you are pathetic is not lying or not it is this your dead horse long time during the German occupation of France. Every day we have people now who are morally kind we're not supposed to be there. You didn't think about the theoretical crap. Imagine with no time to think of the past a truck laden Jew during this time. Think about the theory of this crowd. When I remember very well Mr. Conan was calling call when he was with the German Jew was near there and when
we decided that his name should be called out for an age and was very easy to take and then we had to have people in we made it. I heard the shock wave from the school. You remember where he wanted to be careful with the picture the picture the picture I don't know what it was. It was thanks but I don't think I kept these caucus very very long time now the question is what effect did this have and should be very frank between you and me. We have the impression that you were kind of an activity you had lately had a very hard time to
make a distinction between authorized and illegal in New Orleans and this is no good way of education. I mean we are in the inner circle of people who are concerned about the question. You can't make any education. We came to know before hand planning for a future occupation of France by the norm. We can't make clothes for those in heaven teaching about science which lacks ethical systems. It is the expediency of my way. And then you see it is not a new creation. Well there is nothing to write a scene and when you have any big scene is ready. Because were U.S. military planes and our children there were there is Mars One was a 6.5 years old girl in the world and their little boy was sent
very often in the Hauser's not dual too too tired to do that the police was there and it was much easier to send the little child than to go ourselves. We've had good myself. The police would have seen it if a child forever 60 of ghouls. The police doesn't see what was the ceiling to send the child to see the demand there was a loop in the police is looking after him as to any winning or is it the seamier because inquiries there and all these complications come on account of world the way you do with people I know but rather the truck way you were nevertheless in the greatest of all possible good. You were teaching your child the law. Truly I didn't teach them directly better feelings and they knew very well that Mr. Callahan will coon and you want to call him was not supposed to be in the house and he knew very well. Then when the police came if the police said I asked him where was Mr. Kalanick
he had to say that he did know and he knew perfectly well that Mr. Connor had a kind of little hole between the ceiling and between the even the roof and that Mr. command would go there and it was not only Mr. command. I can say that for a certain amount of months if I did manage to walk lock that was the most important plane was going to work out. We had one will cool cramming and ask him where to go and it was very easy not to lie because some other people were scared to live or scared to have rules in their homes and then they still go to talk me over a song to go to Mr. Hayes and all the Jews were there naturally and it is either art or they were to say to the people who had to do in that how you were not supposed to lie. But when I didn't take the responsibility themselves. To me it would have been much easier to say to stay with my children today or than you know you must not live. The goal of these tools and so on and so on and then to do is to go where they wanted to go but when they come in your home what you want to
have when you are in the in the middle of a massive massive problem with my mind to see the right thing to do. I don't want my child to live with one guy myself so you go industry never mind if they get up and take to confuse you. My story is my weapons and you are in your life and if we don't believe in supplies of that kind of restraint is the first time you know that was in the living room. Well that that was was a remorse. Yes. Letters to. Yes yes. If you in the beginning you see we didn't have the habit of lying. So. The first to do it was a woman. She came late in the evening and if she wanted to ask her where to go so we took her in the House and the next day we went to see a lot of men I went myself to see the love match and to tell him that this woman with Vernon that he was a Jew and that she wanted protection and when Ari Spoke to be mad he was very angry against me and
said you were going to make great difficulties for the whole village or if you think that people in the house you know that the Germans will want them. And the biggest woman has to leave the village immediately and I came back and I thought my goodness how can I tell the woman that she has to move naturally next time I'm not going to people who are male and what the kind of love marriage one imagines. And now she was so surprised that I had to kick out of the house and she said between quite wet my shoes are completely way into sheeple to exude in the open and the shoes Burton and she was without tools. A friend of ours evil shoes and she went and I'm going to say that our whole life we remember that woman leaving our house than the next woman who came over the next man who came and didn't go far below to ask a girl for it as well as we knew it was not so easy you know just to come to
you. Just the same way as you. I was very happy that you know these in these situations. Right. Kind of an uncertainty for what you know about the definition of poor. We have the principles of God. But I would say the printed result for they are just a kind of a cradle and we we know that we should not to go too far from the cradle have the mission to be in the mission to work of course but in fact when we have to choose between for example a younger interview between.
To quote example the North African mass of them trained officers of the state Frank who is caught between these two loyalties between years and years of belonging because a good friend of the French system has to do because this thing which had been his year as a member of a new lawyer hit with a nation which is not yet exist and he isn't in any kind of risk gets a frantic situation for a while and we have the situation of France in A has to follow trade which is the very thing because it is only my conviction and with God. Following up and you know like you know you if you do it for
Christ to you you can find great buys there and those who do not know or cross the Spirit of Christ don't know what I'm speaking about in a very crowded situation or going to take a refuge into the very simple scheme of thinking and they become very Because very absolutely refused to have any discussion about truth that identifies a cause they with with don't speak about North Africa because the French the French rule also with plain benefaction was brought to the author or in the case of the author of that call that the cause of liberation objecting all things which are responding to rain just in the ideology of it till you
see my husband he's a minister and he's met last week and then I think the Army step they didn't stop lying they're not lying. For instance let us see you know me until every American Bester going to have to get here I mean again. You speak of another country and you say oh it is not is an awful thing to be a spy and a spy or something awful naturally despised taken by the nation are we making war that the happiest guy is going to be killed immediately. Let me say man is inspired. If he is not cross and he comes back in use on current day with informations he's not going to start. He's a wonderful intelligent service named U.S. and he may have a lot of decorations but he's the same man. If he's taken. If it comes back in America with information about Russia he's going to have a education
if it is taken by the Russians. See I speak operationally. No wonder people are not in the other diversions but they know that sometimes Americans are excited about them in fact it is a star but the man is the same one. Like now the rebels the terrorists we call them them of these people and I know I will call them America but that's been a gap for a Frenchman and he's a guy and he's a terrorist. But for his own peer group he's a nationalist. Remember the day when you're still going to the truth and where is denial. You're speaking of North Africa. I began from Africa but it would be the same thing with the with the Morocco last year in Tunisia and it will be before and with what is the other thing that you know China and your career in Cyprus pseudonymously opinion analysts danger. And it is very real you say to see we do not lie but we naively believe even when you meet somebody and you say oh I'm so pleased to see you is not what on your in America you want to whom the Guard want to take a shower you want to go to sleep. You want to eat
a sandwich. And here comes somebody using all IP. And you say I was all in America. This is the best meal I ever heard you know to be forced on the you know I didn't sign on to be all be on the bill and then when I get so excited once you have to live something decent if you live with people stupid things and wrong things. Pastor Krugman very briefly you have you found through all of your experience practical and theoretical and easily discernible miles or a guy walking along what you call the trail of corruption. I don't think there is an easy way to do that but I believe in some might say the first one being that you should not be too much concerned about your preservation secure if you
may have to fight with them to go for the salvation of others. You should know yourself about your own death again for direction to take to defend you. The circus life story would be that I could no open two men and one man's face. Relations with the worst police and very curious relation between two men. And there is something of God even worse than you know the invented
dog you loathe at that moment the right to test for the belief that this would be the last. Make my story being the case we are on earth to live and the main thing that we are there witness saw some facts that you can prove. You could evolve to be given something intellectual basic that love God for everything for me. You could easily do that God and therefore I think that this this should be the lead this thread by which we could be there in this or that
situation would say you know that people and I you know with the love of God for them and for you know that of course I am witnessing all that over if I didn't think it was. But I am not saying for God's will that I don't care about death and if I'm afraid of possibly the end of my human earthly prayer and not trusting God and all that. This is why I should know if there are things in my favor for the people we serve the people. Thank you very much Pastor of crockery voices of Europe was produced and
recorded in Europe by Milton Mayer in cooperation with the University of Chicago under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center. This program is distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This program has been introduced by Marvin. This is the end E.B. Radio Network.
Voices of Europe
Andre and Magda Trocme
Producing Organization
University of Chicago
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
This program features an interview with Andre and Magda Trocme, a French couple who aided Jewish refugees during World War II.
Series Description
Interviews with noted Europeans on a variety of subjects, conducted by Milton Mayer, American author and broadcaster, lecturer and professor in the Institute of Social Research at Frankfurt University.
Broadcast Date
Global Affairs
Jewish refugees--History--20th century.
Media type
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Interviewee: Trocme_, Andre_, 1901-1971
Interviewee: Trocme_, Magda, 1901-1996
Interviewer: Mayer, Milton, 1908-1986
Producing Organization: University of Chicago
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 57-7-1 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:29:32
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Chicago: “Voices of Europe; Andre and Magda Trocme,” 1957-01-01, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed June 20, 2024,
MLA: “Voices of Europe; Andre and Magda Trocme.” 1957-01-01. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. June 20, 2024. <>.
APA: Voices of Europe; Andre and Magda Trocme. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from