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The following program is produced by the University of Michigan broadcasting service under a grant he made from the National Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters marriage divorce and family stability a program from the series human behavior social and medical research produced by the University of Michigan broadcasting service with special assistance from the Mental Health Research Institute of the University of Michigan. The people you will hear today are author and educator Dr. Martin group John of Los Angeles and Dr. Don Jackson of the Palo Alto medical clinic in California and my name is Glenn Phillips. Many factors and conditions are involved in and contribute to a happy secure and gratifying marriage in family situation some time to the misfortune of society as well as the individual. This relationship goes astray. How and why are the eternal
question. One interesting story cited by Dr. Don Jackson pointed to a problem of only two people out of the millions involved each year in marital disharmony. A particularly acute example of that occurred recently in a patient who came into a state hospital in a paranoid psychosis. He had delusions that she was being overheard that things were being printed in the newspaper about her and these were very upsetting. An analysis with the husband and some of the relatives it turned out. That this woman had been engaged in a marital discord for some years which her husband would not acknowledge. She began telling him some weeks before she entered the hospital that the neighbors were talking about them and this he poo pooed. It seems logically that the neighbors perhaps weren't talking about them since they used to have rather heated arguments and they lived in a small
tract were but they could overhear everybody else. After she had been persuaded for some weeks that this was not occurring. A. Strong family figure the brother in law was brought in and he also told her that she was mistaken. He then began to notice that in a particular advice to the level orange column that articles were being written about her. Again the husband with the support of relatives gathered to convince her that she was mistaken that this columnist couldn't possibly know her and that she was misinterpreting. It's important that the articles dealt specifically with marital disharmony. Finally she sat down one Sunday in the presence of her relatives and her husband and said well we will put this to the test I will write a letter to this columnist and we will see if she will acknowledge
that she has been sending me messages. And the title of the letter that she wrote was how can we save our happy marriage. When I asked the husband if he didn't think that this was a little bit odd for a title since there was a contradiction between save and happy he said well I know I always thought that we had a happy marriage. It's this kind of thing where it's leads us to believe that mental illness develops as a result of a number of interactions between people. A brief story of two people. Perhaps they were or will be members of the group of Americans 700000 in number who could not find solutions to their problems and resorted to divorce. Love and marriage. Where and how does it all begin. Love is a word we all use but one of the meaning of this mystical emotion
Dr. Martin Grote John said in Los Angeles I tried to I read it with them with my students. I tried all kind of come back to the love I don't like because of peace or love. We all feel guilty and feel you know and never and nobody laughs and of a you ought to love. I like to go on and development and whole groups and all kinds of things. But of course my students that I know very well that we talk about love. I also like to avoid it. We've been talking with patients. Love to thought I could see leads all respect to the child's love for his mother. That's what I'm going to call the prime of the
love for instance or love for the boy to his mother which the four chords the deepest relationship is possible between human beings. He does not talk about the love between a brilliant a model but the other male and with the ends of mother and son the son as a boy it was a little easier. He forms a love or love to his mother which neither the father in the few to the love to the woman with whom you don't want to spend the rest of his life. The love for the development the development of the love of the woman is a little more difficult because she has not only like the boy to which she and her mother to a woman but she has to change in midstream is a six month old love object for mother to father to the boy
with whom she wants to marry whom she loves. So that makes her assignment a little more difficult because of the to the old ideal plot tool. That everyman laps in the room and little room when he wants to be. The door all the men have something in unity and our Constitution is a by six word Constitution. But to read men are not allowed to be women need to hop nor grant all woman or any woman we must be men and all men. We therefore take the femininity in which is a very precious part of which makes us create the bridge made into it too which makes us ascended to and makes us do good on a lot of these have been in pop in cheek out of
and ppl ject as Thurston our mother. Late the Wonder Girls we love the room we want to move in and then we love it and the woman does something similar. She has some must be in the soup. She runs to keep the church she has to hold ject on the boy and love a woman with an unproved food Musk wouldn't you subscribing to a multitude in all kinds of different ways. She can God it was greed envy and not pull ject that she can't pull ject that vital hospital there by the grace of God go as a part of the good woman. Let's go and receive that evening and enjoy it. She is a bed of woman by projecting cookhouse masculinity on the hosp and
it's her house but it's a bit the men by projecting his femininity on his wife and loving kids there. There are these cover all of the genesis of love. It's very doubtful but it is an important part. If a man has a mother we cannot love and upon whom he cannot put it this femininity he will have to carry of it in him so and may become a thumb in the men. This creep the good qualities to love any woman and uses of frequently for the development of perversion especially if it was accepted. I asked Dr. grout John if from the viewpoint of a psychiatrist there is such a thing as a bad Mary Beth message which is of course a term I vastly prefer to seek marriage is a marriage where the communication between
husband and wife is just. Well there's a cut communications but oh well that is used not in order to express love. Both to gain love through us but in order to hurt and to try and complicate thoughts of communications more and more. He must know that I am not a family counsellor not on message counts. With all due respect to counseling which sometimes gifts on for us that sometimes stops people to look closer until they find that I am a specialist in the unconscious co. cation the unconscious communication that in one person this is the thing his conscience and his unconscious but also. A communication between the two peoples unconscious the people's conscious and unconscious subconscious self the ones I'm conscious of Saddam that
is a good lead. Rather he can say that psycho not as this covered the family but we can say that the new family is another family to be which means it takes unconscious into account and that is the between the usual family counseling and what I calls I don't need to send it to appeal. Is it sometimes impossible to bring the marriage back into harmony. Dr GRO John said many people think that it is dangerous to go without many women came running to me to have a group that her husband started. And that must lead to the wrong. I do not think that is the case. Of course many of Saigon is this current event and that which is already hopelessly under the rocks and then
nothing can be done. I tried to I wrote it arose because of the wrong simply not the onset to problems of moving to problems of loving to problems of living together. I am not against a divorce. Often it cannot be helped into the ranks as necessary. If I can do and you think this my patients I twice then even the hopeless meds not to get the roast beef prove they have not analyzed and thus mistakes have been done and the wrong deeds have led to the calamity off of the ground where only such people who do the very best to end us than the miscarriage of a minute help that I had to get a divorce to learn from their mistakes into our growth. Just as in this next time in the wrestling room Snow Hill because people tend then to repeat their mistakes. Well most immediately
via there's a puppet in the standing of the unconscious motivation which look to the vessels of the time may not put a stop. Due to the disintegration of the marriage but made him healthy for the next time. Dr. Greg John discussed neuroses of two people and the analyses of maids. I ask him to explain this theory as that is of course not easy and not as I was born in a very intimate most fair Salesian ship between one patient and unnoticed. And it was a point opinion and not to bother those of members of the family for it. Many of the members of the patient's family. In the stories and associations of his patients. For a new and very early he coined the book.
The family know Hoess message was a compliment. Tevye no one was meaning the patients or it was a compliment at full full made complete by the oldest of his mate aside the stick men may have a muscle who stick by a. Side of the stick vive May I ask for a mother who stick men as strong May article of the CP and indeed speak. They make a couple which fit into each other's needs. Sometimes it is possible to hope to mate at home schools who are not of the pop and the office in my opinion is not completely on the lies before and the patients do not. Also in the band which ople know what
was in the pot that was very important and perhaps one of the most you could point us in such. Go on not a little beezy Septem to help also the mate in the match. These can be done in all kinds of ways sometimes if you have a very good patients and analyze him there. He will help you survive and sometimes even the rows of the peculiar effect that sometimes the patient does not she and she but the entire family change to the better course but also sometimes to do for them that everything gets worse because of the negative to appear to create action. There are various theories of how best to assist marriage partners. I asked Dr GRO John how he conducted such therapy. He said I experiment with many kind of a pubic valuation. Sometimes as I said it is
enough to analyze one member of the family and the benefit of his analysis will extend to the family. Sometimes it is possible to bring a patient too much too close and his newly regained trainings even influence a family. At other times I. Ask to see that say the value of those a Mennonite is with me and sometimes I can show them in such should the young girl of the relationship. That I did the relationship is a bipolar relationship. If the family treatment is a triangular relationship. Very frequently stopped with a discussion of the last sayat and then type 2 shows them. The Tuli. Underlying unconscious issues of such a fight. I show them to do for
them between a destructive fight which is fought in order to hurt and believe me people who are married do not only know they have things but their own senility of weaknesses in those even methods fied can be of value often fail. I sure love the films. But this tok the fight into constructive divide because I would be the last one to take out of a message the fighting. But I mean a very different diet a good message is. Formed is founded is based on years of struggle on us on the search for the answer us. There is a peculiar power lose some big dream. It's like we're not is that a happy marriage. A very interesting comment in that answer it was fight constructively. I wondered how a couple could fight constructively as opposed to destructively.
Dr. Ro John replied. I ask these question to a person who comes from Prashant has and cannot deny you question because I knew had low and an older German. And the good German does not fight to the revenge of fighting off the point. I was grateful to have to just talk to the fact and this is a fight which has no more place in our time I am a new place in a marriage. There are different ways of fighting. There is actually runs. I saw my son fighting quite intensively this somebody. And I wondered why you were fighting with the wrong boy and not this other and he said
disease is no friend of mine and I wouldn't fight the scn uses a constructive fight to fight for something to fight to gain insight to find to clarify an issue. Sometimes these issues conscious much more difficult it is too high and the reason that comes out of an unconscious to be post may think for instance a fight the bout money who makes the money who gets the money what is going to be a common food how is it going to be spend that fleet and the money in that it stands. And much fighting about money can be explained if you see that it is a complicated and symbolic expression. Who gets left and who takes this into the public must sees. That the message can be good. Luna to each one is willing to grow hundred will send one through the
day to the other side and that nobody spends even under 95 percent mock and watching with the hero she comes to the five boats and in the room when this is the Ruch pop number that he comes to us we become much of and longer love us. Very frequently in the dept. excision I stop this defiant I do not repeat the fight I do not try to find out the risk I don't have long. Abby does not. I tied to an ally and to him thus then the unconscious motives of such a thought. Do you remember the name right. Leap up to the onset. And the first fright humanly. This should be
a bit. Of bread for a break. Read carefully I wrote a bit to find in-group or family analysis. Is it possible that difficulties with the family may arise. Dr Jackson said yes the initial interviews with families are characteristic and they very very little from family to family. The chief characteristic of an initial interview is that everyone in the family the parents and the brothers and sisters will say that everything is fine except for the fact that the patient is ill and that they can only get the patient over his illness and everything would be peachy. The thing that we discover usually after months of working with the family is that other family members have very serious complaints of their own
which they're not either aware of or willing or willing to admit. As long as the patient is usurping the front of the stage the difficulty is in keeping the family coming isn't offering them something that they get out of the sessions. That makes them want to return the following week we find that if we can keep them coming for. A few sessions on the basis of their interest in getting the patient well. That there are enough family problems which evolve that then they get interested in dealing with those. And this is by no means 100 percent but our record. With the families has been pretty good. More than we would have anticipated initially in terms of keeping them coming and interested and in getting them to see their own contribution to the patient's illness and to what specific problems they themselves have.
I asked Dr Jackson if a mistrust might develop when each partner was undergoing analysis. I mistrust brought about by one partner or the other saying that his mate's new actions were not motivated by sincerity but rather as a result of what he or she may have been told to do. He stated that's a very good question. Our experience is that if people behave differently the effect of this behavior will register on those around them. The exact analysis of their motivation may never be known but the results will be known. And like the old saying that the proof of the pudding lies in the eating. I think there's much too much concern on the part of some of these families about what does the other individual really mean and hence a good deal of suspicion if they are taught to accept actions and to see what
comes of these actions. It can release a certain amount of tension about trying to read what other people are thinking which is an impossibility even for the psychoanalyst Dr GRO John made this comment about the danger of the possibility of one partner progressing more rapidly than the other. Under analysis. Things like these almost every day are psychoanalysis. Is that best. Keys is the keys of the patient develops and lets his a via. Or her husband fully benefit forms that insights he gained in other cases the women. Let us assume that the men is my patients the woman gets back home to defenses and if need be the note of the link are not capable of participating in the you know and the my poor Haitian of the husband are not of the next step then is to send such agreement in the not of those with somebody else.
Then comes the great difficulties about communication with each other on the list. Of course it's not an aloof friend. Well they're similar in Connacht them. That's the best interest of the patient at honk their own driving it's a common groan of mental have and monthly and not do the ends in the ground. Complicate met us but that is an ideal situation. I have found it sometimes. Necessary to send both back love into treatment was different. I know that. I won't sometimes especially the good and knowledgeable one papa to call him so me as a visitor or as a guest. Perhaps also as a patient in hiphop. Hi I'm going to interview you know not to let her participate and to
orchestrate the progress of one partner in the marriage was a portal so I don't know this final comment was offered by Dr GRO John regarding the needs of an individual in Mary looks. For many things in his rise he wants to find in her his mother he wants to find his mistress and at other times he wants to accept as his daughter and a woman sees in her hosp and so many different things. She runs to find again the ideal she had as a little girl. You know Father she runs to have a sexual partner. And of course every room runs to have a son. And either she has her own son she loves to have her moments and would she accept Osbon as so son. Now think how these many
relationships may coincide and may not coincide but differ and clash. Under these orchestration of different needs takes place. The people have to learn how to communicate with each other they can communicate inverts and in symbols and in deeds and being together and enough being to give an intense of dependency and intimacy and independence. And you know all of these things can be expected out. It's a fight on the unconscious level and an unconscious level. That's what I think is a really good up to you ticked off going to sleep. But if a sick sick love for the relationship is to emphasize the free communication between two people and lit
up between the members of the family and these three could win the commission must not only confirm that conscious acts she seems to consciously relationship but also the unconscious relationship between mine and Dr. But we do Father and Son Mother and Child and Youth is a very big assignment and this is a very big sign is a phrase with many implications and one that if understood and accepted might decrease the figure of 700000 persons who annually can find no other solution to their problems except via the divorce court. Our thanks to Dr. Martin Grote John and Dr. Don Jackson for their participation. Next week you will hear Dr. Benjamin bald. Dr. Leon EISENBERG And Dr. Helen Whitman as they discuss the first of two programs under delinquency a program from the series human behavior social and medical research consultant
for this program was Dr. H Wald to bird of the University of Michigan Medical School and Department of Psychiatry and Philip speaking asking that you join us next week and thanking you for being with us at this time. This program has been produced by the University of Michigan broadcasting service under a grant in aid from the National Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the NEA E.B. Radio Network.
Behavioral science research
Marriage, divorce and family stability
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University of Michigan
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University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
This program discusses behavioral science and how it can help people's marriages. Guests include: Martin Grotjahn, MD, UCLA; and Don D. Jackson, MD, Palo Alto Medical Clinic.
Series Description
A documentary series on behavioral science and its role in understanding human health.
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Host: Cowlin, Bert
Interviewee: Grotjahn, Martin, 1904-1990
Interviewee: Jackson, Don D. (Don De Avila), 1920-1968
Producing Organization: University of Michigan
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 61-36-2 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:29:46
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Chicago: “Behavioral science research; Marriage, divorce and family stability,” 1961-06-03, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed May 28, 2024,
MLA: “Behavioral science research; Marriage, divorce and family stability.” 1961-06-03. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. May 28, 2024. <>.
APA: Behavioral science research; Marriage, divorce and family stability. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from