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In his book entitled Europe con fun kinds of wing maintains the groups are nasty egotistical and threatening to peace and order. One might challenge this statement as an overgeneralization but a provoking one. Certainly we would have to concede that the organized gang presence has many of the negative elements that von Keyserling sees and nationality or ethnic groups. The boy gang recruits its members from disorganized families for the most part in the disorganized family the parents do not urge upon their children strong patterns of conventional behavior goals and aspirations are either missing or they diverted into nasty channels filled with negative hostile angry feelings. The child does not develop inhibitions in sufficient number of strength to control these feelings very often such a boy resumes his conflicts by joining a gang of adolescents whose behavior is in conflict with what is expected of boys this age by the other members of society. Most educators would agree that the word gangs should be restricted to groups whose goals are negative
antisocial and destructive. In the introductory course and sociology groups are analyzed broken down and considered from the point of view of their component parts. In order to give insight and understanding to the word group. One can understand a group of any kind. Only when he is able to identify it. We say that a group is properly identified when one knows the bonds that bring the individuals together and keeps them together. When one knows how long they remain together and when one knows where to find them assembled in the gang boys interview that you were about to hear. The gang members are brought together by a common bond. They come together to break the laws. This is an interesting and ominous objective. One gets to be a member by breaking the law and undergoing an initiation ceremony involving shame fear and humiliation. He is then tattooed between the thumb and index finger. Thereafter he retains membership by breaking laws and remaining loyal to the group. This group is no local cancer on the community. It is an international gang of
adolescents and adults. It is organized along the same lines as a business or a fraternity. There is leadership and authority roles. Rules and sanctions. Here to preview some of the interesting facets of Agang boy's life story is Father Duffy. When gang activities are discussed in a group somebody is always bound to inquire about the size of a gang and ask about how many gangs there are in any given city. I don't believe that the magnitude or composition of a gang is very important because it measures only one aspect that of magnitude or size or number. Suppose I were to tell you that I have 50 clients. This may have some meaning for you but what if I told you I had 50 clients all living in three rooms. You see how much more important the additional factor of space is it adds meaning to the single factor of size. I do not know that a size or
number of gangs in a given city is important. What is important is the answer to such questions as these. Why are boys attracted to gangs. What kinds of things do the gang boys do. Is it wiser to try to stamp out gangs or leave them intact and try merely to change the direction and the goals of their activities. In the interview that follows with a gang boy Our purpose is to try to understand the boy as he sees himself. We try to refrain from making value judgments in talking to him in order to understand a value judgement we might have to review a little bit of logic. The word boy is called A Simple apprehension and illustration of a judgment would be this. John is a boy. A judgment becomes a value judgement when one takes sides or evaluates or appraises the contents of a judgment. I might say John is a good boy or John is right. I might even go a step further and say that boys are better than girls.
This introduces a personal bias of the male observer and introduces us to the error in logic which we call the unwarranted generalization. In talking with Alfredo no value judgments are made. He has neither praised nor blamed for being a gang member. This illustrates one element in counselling that has to be observed as a counsellor one has to learn to accept the child as he is. This doesn't mean approving of what he does. Children often do things that adults cannot accept or approve of. On the other hand to approach this boy in a spirit of disapproval or rejection or criticism or fault finding would result in making him hostile negative and rejected in the case of the boy who is about to speak. He might even become aggressive. You will see that when this child is accepted in his role as a gang member and when he's helped to discuss his gang activities he comes up with the idea of quitting the gang and having his tattoos removed surgically. This I
feel is an initial step in the right direction of trying to understand this particular boy. What's your name. You know how I view our writing. Let's talk about this group. Yes Greg when. I said. And how big is your family how many children. Six kids. And you've always thought the youngest there was next to be honest. And what do you here for this time. Still a clown school and not going to school yes. And how many times we hear before 13 is this your 14th time 13th 13th and how old were you when you first got in trouble. But wait what was I for. Still had a 5 in 10. Then what was it the next time you remember the company. A Coke was going to come and then what was the next fighting in the street. And what about the next time. John King unless you were
drunk hear their whiskey or beer or wine or beer was with other kids or at a party and a party you could say you get sick you know and. And have you been drinking ever since. Yes off and on. Yes something and what was the first time for. I broke some windows and never I couldn't pay for and I couldn't pay for themselves. I declare the course of that and the next time stealing money out of the Crown company. And after that shoot and I got it. And in what. Way. I can remember Mark and have you ever been in an institution before. Yes which ones you go to Thornhill don't you know and we every weekend. Yes and how long did you take a bump there for 18 months. Did you like it pretty well or know that you like going to weave it was Bourdillon handsome The food was good though.
Yes. What was so bad about was that the other kids or was it the regulations or the presenter clients but mostly I think it is. I guess there's no need to ask you how you do in school. If I do good in the Catholic schools so are posing as you are Catholic here. I notice that you have a but you can Mark Kelly Yes I have and I do want to put your case. Yes I knew Spanish descent or they're Mexican Spanish. And what do they do what they like or they're not that ones they do them I mean things like linen that was ground beaten at birth. Kids just don't think the disturber just obey the laws of the state we dare you just break laws like the laws. That's kind of what they're organized to do here break the law. US and IDs kids get together either say a pack of them or what we have about 30 to 40 of them is a neighborhood gang. You know it's a lot of
you know an area of the case but it is Mickey's but there's just Mickey's burden as East and I find on different spots and where you from your side and they have groups over there too. Yes they have money sounds like yes and you think they're pretty dangerous these kids if you get them riled up they can really do a lot of damage here and they will they will do anything but DO ANYTHING. Need to get you out of trouble if you got him trapped his arm and only most dangerous when I trapped and I grounds in a pit you can see there are boys boys and how do you get in and what do you have to do to get in his her initiation. It's just that you have to pull yourself back in and sometimes on some kind of breaking the law of some sort and get a tattoo on your hand. How do they put that on your hand. What needle encounter in Indian media threaten Indian ink. They wrap thread around so that there isn't too much of the point sticking up and here is that in ink in an 8.
They just really we hadn't had this it was in the scan. And you have to do anything else but I was done. What kind of initiation do they have when was initiated. Like when I put it to the eighth graders ninth graders we take a closer look. Where Simon and I go I get it to ask it is my graduate. We recommend a lot of really rough and not some of the other when you just make them take the clothes we would make them think abt her clothes after we hang up and apparently can't get away. People kind of watch and it's pretty silly. Did you ever get involved in any serious fight in here. Did you. Ever read any where somebody was killed. Well no reason that a fair question and I was never enough of a thank you other well delayed when they attacked a person just illustrate for nothing. For amusement are just good for music and they get a
thrill out of this or a kicker when you know you have been kicked out of it. I mean drinking usually during these times you know they drink after they do the damage mostly. Would you think that these are preventing kids who don't have any body except each other. Most of the pounds are out until I think yeah and that probably makes in previous use of the term as a youngster because my plans aren't you know so me either. Do you have regular meeting nights where we have to have a Saturday maybe two that are fun and we just broke up with contractors. Telephone someway none of these boys are are they're not queer. Well. You know what that is. Yeah they're not like that. No not again. OK. And. How about tell me what your parents do that makes you so mad that you join a group like this to ground smash people over. Man I don't know but I do wish that I had a rock I'm sure sure and I would have to stop. Sure keep an eye wall for days a little bit of time and she will forget
about the baton. I got to know you have a dream she's a good mother. She tried everything you do to get me out of this trouble but I don't know I guess when you when you don't accept somebody the way they are you want to change and you don't like him the way they are and you just might be the way you are when you rock. So if you know Farai are a little disturbed Franziska let alone to take it back. Yeah but your dad is he any more can see a lot of us doesn't. Is he drink and you know he's like you know well he's my stepfather you know. And just you when the other kids you know on the other and your sisters and I sleep in front of us. Was that like it was one of about three weeks ago. I try to skip out on a quoting but. I'm not coming back. We're ever in jails outside of the series or whatever. Still the current one was sitting here.
And you expect to finish high school you know you don't want to do the right amount of them about me. So I'm going to ask first you claimed I don't have school. And I'm glad I listened to serve eight months and then I'm going to quit because I love him back and. Tell me something happened when you're in the boys as far back as you remember before school time. When that happened you know. And I used to have a stepfather he willingly took me in a box he had a player up to his face and he kept on her then I got him and he put the plug to start I told him I quit. So he put it down and I can use to many I was down and I had my mother knew I don't know about you and you need things to get her and then one day with the people other correctly would probably think I had my money out of her badly Further got her as a backup for years or. Anything else. Her answer was I get in trouble when I was mayor. It was just another kid man is with me now and we need him no jobs were about to lose our Him
with everything we've done we've done together is about. And telethon I join the joke is on me to plan a writer and how did your older brothers treat you when you were little do you remember my brother treated me rightly I was dumb about it. It was at this time a new one was it that far back and he would take us his red flag on the front. And went out about that with the girls every night. You just my one system. Was a. Anything ever worry you are real serious like having to get operate on some kind of a terror like that just describing what I think that that's really scary. But you must have had four or five of these before Tim and I because I knew I couldn't write this and not have it as my school or my school and there was a lot of thought that was out against me right out and I didn't have a chance. So I was stuck pretty well. And I'm going to get out of there. First you can't I'd like to get a lawyer because I just can't
stand around here. You feel boxed in and I'm not biased or just it so it's a lot of therapy and I felt that the little I would not first it last night you and I don't want to have got us off. Why can't they trade you into a fight with anything I actually want. When they see that mark on your hand it's not me can back away. No no no no the moon and back. And if you think a lot of chip chip There's a Newsweek round things which upset him he'd be easy to beat but alone. Yeah but but again. After he had been my people come back at him to twice as much damage is usually done to him. Did you ever get cut up by any of these people. You know just as nice Could I want to raise your body count. It was about a piece of glass but I'm happy I don't. And what about the one in your eye that was embarrassing. I've been about. Now. And this is from my best friend. She gave me a pretty good scratching your head before I left. That you would fight with her when. I
put on airs and then tell me quite as I did it again. She gave to me. She like me being not going to be here because you don't understand. However she. She's a team. And as you know screw you. So I was I was worried about me getting a shot on staying out of it. But the biggest thing ever worried you out. For instance I was just quoting him. It's really kind of rough because I my summers in my life I've been humming. The scion of the rabbit a camel is going to be kind of hard but I'm glad you can get through it. Good thread. And I will never have a probation officer he's you know nobody's daughter. He's just a young person I'm sure you know very good you know that what he's done and the judge pronounced that's even the number one according to this study like that. But I let me take the rap.
So I got 18 months. Well this might save you some trouble later on you know getting police shooting at you in a stolen car or getting into bigger stuff like grabbing banks or what we hope people notice and I look around I backed every through temperature religion of everything hate Catholics Protestants Presbyterians and Lutherans and the last say that will turn out every time there's a kind of a man trying to guarantee two out of every 10 trying to grab you either a turn just I'm just where I was and I was right then either way and what you just might by the good be. Well the future isn't very bright for you then. Not a medical term. I better get moving. Well you haven't really anybody that supported you you know backed you up and with were nice to you in time and not too much remember she didn't do too much I mean I was I was tired and I didn't have a family trapped me and she couldn't get a platinum albums either the same time I was hired I sometimes hard to
play just mother. Treasured security. I wonder why he left. I. Ran out of brotherhood after. Hearing that a fight one night and I was in my lap and my other sister carrying me and I was climbing club name my mother diverse than that. And I was brown I was in time I got a good man. Jury and I still remember that he's But I mean he said I mean resin my son. He's a very nice time they spent on me was pretty hard to hear. You know my ribs I mean I'm mad at her tongue and she's just but I'm eternally got away. Well he must have been in our family couple times. He was away in backing away again. He was from was I when I was up nor did he come back to my mother. Well I'm glad it was time I was just a phone and then I was the last you've seen if you know I was I see him around are you know saying that making earth me and.
Trying to drag me out of it surely. Just I try to make a time to move when he went or. If he did not hear you like I am. Because it's pretty how you seem like a nice enough boy. I thought on the certain elements in first here. I think and I think you'll find it won't be too bad. But it was I'm going the third one we kind of strange to me and mostly out of place though when I was not of our time I mean I don't. Know I Don't Know No time I don't mean like that man. I've committed letters that came in and sentenced practically for rather a long time. Well it's usually indeterminate until it's up to me. Yeah yeah but no more dancer is usually around around 22 months and you get out an 18 then yes. So this is for our students indeterminate I think the better you do there. And
the fewer fights you get into when the more you behave and try to conform I think the quicker the fibula need anymore what they're offering. But of course when the kids are probably push around a bit. But you're pretty big I think you can take care of yourself and your son because you're 14 how tall are you fighting. And you were about one hundred forty five when I finished. Is there anything else you can think of when I was at my battling experience but maybe you can take that up again. He's an Arsenal player and like to tell about it as I can. But then which I will because I'm for that I get out at first you can restart time even enter now move on to a lot of destruction. Well somebody can stop that you know. Who can stop them. Guy and who else. Myself Yeah. There's two ways of looking at things either you get controlled or you control yourself
if you have to be controlled you have to be watched you have to be supervised. If you don't need control like that you supervise yourself. You're on your own you're for your. And you stay out of trouble. Nothing else you can think of. But let me think that you were different from other Going to the sun. I felt when I got out of the so on have I just first recap. I don't want to go back to the church because I wish I could just talk and I think they can but I've heard he stopped too was in them a trial going to take enough for them what happened here. Well this does not mean anything. You higher than anybody else but that one I'm about to just put I have a pedantic decoration but when you do go higher you get a different kind of a mark and you put your good ass are at us look at me I can tell you rebel because it's not a lie but oh I see how was I was a mathematician but Winston Starcade and slime way when you know something. Yeah far less.
Because if they find out that you tell me they might cut your tongue. Now I just did. That a lot of that Larson has moved to the club City with us they can get my flag and I can shoot him because we were not allowed nowhere. You could on the west coast of East Coast you can get clever and one of these. I just took you back to St.. You were one of these. So it's dangerous for me I want to have to cover it up and go to court hearings. But I'll keep my hands were on my back is going I was dropping the judge could let nobody see you think you know us you know. But you think that having been some less conspicuous place if they don't want people to see them. There was you know I think when the thumb of the finger. Now how come when we are at F R Us prejudiced OK. I bet I won't let her father know what I said on Mexico or Texas or what I did I mean anything. That's just that's what I'm going to think about first of all to remember your elaborate. Yeah but the woman as ever I was in some Spanish couldn't understand it I
don't see any. I don't know how do you understand it I have a turban me. So. Okay I think it's about I who grew up. OK. No one ever wondered what would happen to him if he stopped eating and drinking. He knows he would die. One might wonder however what happens to a child whose other needs beyond the biological are not met within the family or within his strategic groups his friends neighbors school mates. In the interview we just heard a child whose psychological and social needs are not met. Was heard his earliest recollection is that of watching his brother steal his body. He felt inadequate and angry at this time. Later on when it was about four years old his step father taught him to fight. But he would not let the child fight back. It seems that the stepfather was deliberately frustrating the child. Now I'm not sure that this definition of frustration would be acceptable to psychiatry's but I see frustration as a condition in which
one wants to get something or to be something or to go somewhere or to have something between him and the object that he desires there is a block or impediment thrown up so that one cannot get what he wants. He can't put up with not getting his own way and there's no way of removing the block. This could be reduced to a formula after equals a G frustration equals or produces aggression. A frustrated person normally strikes out becomes aggressive assaultive and destructive. The unfortunate thing is that the person usually doesn't attack the block he attacks something or someone that has nothing to do with achieving his purpose. Let's take an illustration of this. Suppose I'm writing an important document and three or four times I strike three instead of the letter e. I finally get so mad I take the paper out of the machine take the typewriter over and drop it out the window. You'll notice that this aggressive behavior does not get the document typed. In fact it makes
that particular typewriter unusable. Some psychologists and sociologists feel that a child who tends to act out his frustration sort of punishing the environment and the people around him is apt to become delinquent whereas a child who is overwhelmed by frustration tends rather to feel inadequate and helpless. He is more apt to become passive and dependent and to suffer some form of emotional disturbance. We can see some pretty disturbing signs emerging in the boy we heard today. He's extremely angry and resentful about his father's relation to the family and to himself in particular. The boy enjoys aggression but it causes him to be tense and fearful and apprehensive. Even his approach to his girlfriend you notice is nasty and hostile and abusive one way he manifests his feeling for her is to pinch her nose. She doesn't like this and tells him she doesn't like it. What happens if he does that again. And she then uses her long finger nails to
rake the skin of off his face and he still bears the marks of this experience. What about the future of a boy like this. It would appear that he's headed for an institutional life setting which he will despise and fight against. Yet I'm afraid that he will continue to challenge society in ways that will make society retaliate by placing him in confinement. Unless of course he can be reached by some motivating forces that will help him examine his efforts in terms of what does he do and how does it work out in dealing with a boy like this. One gets a strong impression that the counselor and the boy don't speak the same language. They don't share the same value systems. They don't understand each other. On the positive side I get a strong feeling that this boy is one who wants to know what's right and is trying to make some efforts in the direction of conforming to the minimum expectations of society for his
restless and unhappy. And he's beginning to see that he is the architect of many of his own problems. You have been listening to exploring the child's worldview. A program in which the child speaks. Father Francis Duff a professor of sociology at Duke University has conducted the interview with the child and to find the outlines of this world in the summary that followed it. This is been a production of the radio service of detained University in cooperation with U.K. and sociology department technical director Frederick Williams program director and older man. Listen again next week for another in the series exploring the child's world.
Exploring the child's world III
A Pachuchro in the stockade
Producing Organization
Duquesne University
WDUQ (Radio station : Pittsburgh, Pa.)
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Episode Description
Alfredo belongs to a local unit of a national gang which he says is organized to break as many laws as possible. Now he has taken his 13th fall in five years and this time he will go to a reformatory.
Series Description
Interviews with delinquent and disturbed young people who are encouraged to discuss their experiences and express feelings. To protect individuals, each program is a re-creation of an actual interview using different names and places.
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Producing Organization: Duquesne University
Producing Organization: WDUQ (Radio station : Pittsburgh, Pa.)
Speaker: Duffy, Francis
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 64-5-5 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:29:21
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Chicago: “Exploring the child's world III; A Pachuchro in the stockade,” 1964-01-08, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed February 4, 2023,
MLA: “Exploring the child's world III; A Pachuchro in the stockade.” 1964-01-08. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. February 4, 2023. <>.
APA: Exploring the child's world III; A Pachuchro in the stockade. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from