Asia Society presents; 25

The Israel society prison. This is a series of interviews with experts on Asian affairs designed to strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. Your most on this transcribed series is the noted author on the ward winning broadcaster league Graham. Here now is Mrs. Graham Malaysia is an Asian country about which we haven't talked very much and really we should because I think we could draw some parallels between that country and the United States in that Malaysia contains two strong but different cultures who manage to coexist rather well. And of course we know that in our country we have racial divisions and we're hoping to overcome them. Perhaps we can learn a lesson from how it's done in Malaysia. I don't know but I think I guess Good point is in that direction. He is Dr. James Guio who is a lecturer at the Southern Asian Institute at Columbia University and Akio has spent more than a year in Malaysia he is taught there and done research there as he has in other Asian countries. How do you

feel that is an exotic place money. Would you just briefly tell us where it is in the world and what it's like geographically. The point of view of climate. Well Malaysia is in the center of Southeast Asia it's fairly close to the equator which is important for understanding how hot it gets to be there. It has a persistent climate the year round unlike some of the countries of Southeast Asia which have a monsoon for instance Burma has three months in the summer when it rains every day and then no rain for the rest of the year. Malaysia has a rather even climate throughout the whole year raining a little bit every day. This has quite an impact on people from New York or elsewhere who aren't used to such hot humid weather. It's unique in Southeast Asia in that it's one of the richest countries in Southeast Asia. One of the most stable politically. And all of this despite the fact that many people would have expected to tear itself apart shortly after independence because of its stark division into two cultures

as they're often called. That is a Chinese and in the lay section there is a third group the Indians which I don't think we need to talk about much because their importance in the politics of Malaysia at large is not that great. Yes now how did Malaysia become Malaysia. It really is an evolution of political evolution. It is let me say that in two senses one is simply to say what counts as Malaysia and what is not Malaysia is a bit complex. But if we say that at the end of World War 2 the British developed a country known as the Federation of Malaysia which was given independence 1057 which is a predominately male a country with a large Chinese minority. Then coming into 1963 there was a decision that Singapore was to get independence and it was felt that Singapore might be another Cuba and Southeast Asia and it had a very large Chinese population with the very strong leftist tendencies. So the idea was that Singapore might be contained if it were brought into independence along with Malaysia. But this was

a rather large group to be assimilated into Malaysia. So they constructed this federation of Malaysia which was to be made up of Singapore the Federation of Malaya and then to Borneo state Sabat and several Bach in order to balance out the society Sabar you may have heard some of recently in terms of the the conflicting claims of the Philippines to jurisdiction over Sabah. This federation held together for about two years. It turns out unfortunately for Malaysia that the Chinese and Singapore especially Kuan Yew are little bit too energetic for the stability of the Federation and they were rejected in 1065. So Malaysia these days is made up of the peninsula known now as West Malaysia and these two these two Borneo territories of Sabah and Sarawak and Singapore a lot of fabled city one that we associate all kinds of exciting events with is an independent city. Now its an independent city. Its sort of an island city state and our governing self governing

the British have withdrawn completely while the British have withdrawn politically. The crisis of international relations in the area aside from Vietnam these days is the fact that the British are going to be pulling out their troops and their naval base at Singapore. This is a crisis both in political terms in that. Singapore Malaysia would like the British to remain and if the British are going to remain they've asked our stay in New Zealand to step in to fill up the gap. This is also a crisis economically for Singapore because a great section of the population depends upon the base for its livelihood. But if we go back now to Malaysia where there are two distinct cultures who manage to coexist without too much trouble as you said people thought that Malaysia might be pulled apart by this but hasn't so far. Now about 49 percent of the population I believe is Malaya. And about thirty seven percent Chinese. The rest are Indians Europeans and and other assorted groups. How do they work this out. One seems to shine in one respect in the other in another. The

Malays for example predominate politically don't think that's true. And this is an unusual circumstance there are several other countries in the world where we have a can splash unlike this for instance in Lebanon and also in British Guiana although neither of those two countries seem to have done so well recently as Malaysia has in maintaining a certain amount of political stability and at the same time some political events despite its neighbors feel this this great difficulty of two cultures which are not quite dissimilar both to each other. The Malays and the Chinese they've done it in part. By the simple expedient that the Malays have been more interested in politics and have maintained a predominance there the Chinese have been much more interested in economics and have maintained their predominance there. Although we see some changes coming as more Malays come to feel that they should play a role in economics as well. More young Malays or more poor Malays getting education and desiring a place in economics. Similarly various groups of Chinese feeling that you know man does not live by

money alone. They would also like to have a stronger political role. This puts some strains on the formula for cooperation has existed so far in Malaysia. Yes I understand Akio that there is a rule which says they have to be the ratio has to be for Malays to one Chinese in the government. Does that mean in appointed or elected. Well. It's not quite that unfortunately. It's often viewed that way. This is actually one particular branch of the civil service only. This is called the Malayan civil service this is a very elite cadre these are the people who are in charge of most things. And that was traditionally in the colonial period this was composed of Englishman. Now as Malaysia moved toward independence they brought in some local people who were predominantly Malays. And the statement was we should let some of the non Malays in also so this ratio was set up. That is at entry. There should be for Malays to everyone non-Malay which means in this case Chinese or Indian. Now in actuality it turns out to be a ratio of

about 8 to 1 because many are promoted up into this from lower Malays services. But this is only what I call the elite cadre of the civil service. Yes business some resentment over that. Yes there is but I think it has been modified by an awareness that in the civil service at large the Chinese predominate. I sat on this particular side on this. This is the powerful group this is this is the most powerful group politically but in terms of the technical services the Chinese are much more predominant in large part because they're more apt to have the education that is required. What are some of the main differences between the Malays and the Chinese. Aside from the racial difference and by the way what race do you do Malay people belong to. But they are part of each Malayo Polynesian race. Yes if we want to speak in racial terms and it's a very tricky concept. They are very much akin to the Indonesians. There is a feeling of brotherhood because it is compounded by a similarity in religion both Malays in Malaya and most Indonesians are Muslim so there is this great feeling of brotherhood which went into severe strains during the confrontation of course.

What are some of the other differences then besides race and religion. The Chinese follow what Buddhism mostly Chinese religions are relatively undefined in most of Southeast Asia. They could be thought of as nominally Buddhist they're also large Confucian elements. Many Chinese who are converts to Christianity. It seems to me the crucial point here is that in those countries where the Chinese could assimilate such as Thailand or Burma which are Buddhist countries they have assimilated fairly well. However in a country where there is some religious prohibition on intermarriage say as in Indonesia or Malaysia the Chinese have not been able to next hour become a regular part of the whole prohibits the intermarriage of the Muslims. Well this is this is a Muslim prohibition against intermarriage the MLA cannot marry a Chinese. You know I mean. Unless unless the Chinese converts to Islam which I think some hundred people a year do it's a very small. But otherwise there is no intermarriage.

Otherwise there is an intermarriage Jessa making it pretty hard to assimilate they don't have the answer in Thailand for instance was that as Chinese became economically powerful. They were married into the tiny nobility and became Thai so that they were no longer a threat as an Indian minority. Similarly in Burma it is Chinese who came in for economic reasons married n became Sino Burmese and were a fairly regular part of the Burmese culture is that the main point that one become a Muslim and then he can be accepted as a Malay or part of the Malaysian group. This is the main point there are many other elements that go in terms of speaking my way quite obviously or practicing with a culture in a wide variety. I have the feeling that there is no desire on the part of Chinese in Malaysia to become Malays. The interesting question is whether both Chinese and Malays could become something else. There is something truly Malaysian. This is an ambition that many of the youth have to say let us not make any distinction between Chinese and Malay we're all Malaysians. This is the

slogan that Lee Kuan Yew was espousing when Singapore was a part of Malaysia. But this was dangerous to this very careful balance that had been worked up between Chinese and Malays and maybe because if I gave a sketch of the mechanism for that balance to speak very generally in the past when political organizations or labor unions have been set up that included Chinese Malays and Indians within a short while the Chinese took over. So the Malays felt that they couldn't cooperate on equal footing with the Chinese politically or in many other ways. The ruling party in Malaysia now finds a different principle which is a sort of a separate and unequal system by which there are three ethnic parties brought together into one alliance. There is in all a party a Chinese party and an Indian party with the Malays party playing the predominant role. In this way any communal question has to be resolved at the top. In this party rather than at lower levels or in the districts. And this has prevented the sort of communal conflict that might have otherwise come if

we had tried to set up a say Pan Malayan party which has happened in case of some opposition parties and have usually been taken over by the Chinese the Malays perceive that they have no chance of surviving an organization unless they have a protected quota. It seems then that there's quite a difference between how two groups co-exist in Malaysia and how they have not been Go existing very well here. Point is in Malaysia that the Malays and the Chinese and the Indians. Probably all have representation. It may not be the same it is unequal but nevertheless it is there. Whereas here for a long time of course a black American felt that he had no representation. So I think that makes a big difference between the two countries. Well I think that's true although up until the time of this alliance formula the two cultures in the laser were even more distinct and I say the two cultures in the United States and that the Chinese were not quite considered citizens of Malaysia. The British had thought of them as being birds of passage. These are businessmen who came to make money and to ship

the money back home or perhaps go back home themselves. Are our peasants who came to work in the tin fields Indians were also birds of passage in many ways this was not a fair characterization because there are a large number of Chinese who have been in Malaysia for many generations but particularly from the point of view of the Malays the Chinese were not really citizens. They didn't really belong here they were an alien minority not a local minority. But since independence they have been receiving this political representation since independence they have gained citizenship under certain kinds of restrictions and they feel that their continued these restrictions such as the one in the civil service and a whole series of special privileges such as preference and scholarships preferences and business licenses of various sort. Well the difference is not that great between 49 percent and 37 percent but they joined something else that makes it quite different from the American situation in most political societies we will find that the minority is a fairly small as are several

minorities in Malaysia. We have. Not quite a balance. And as Chinese have said looking at the discrimination and the extinction of Chinese minorities elsewhere for instance in Indonesia or in the Philippines they said if you're 10 percent you can be crushed. But if you're if you're about 40 percent you too big to be crushed and you have to be dealt with in this way. Now this is one of the fundamental difference between. The political situation in Malaysia and the situation in the United States and the United States. Blacks are negroes as a culture feel that they're universally deprived. That is they are lower on the political scale they are lower in terms of economics in terms of level of education. Anything that you want to name except for say artistic skills or athletics in Malaysia this is not the case. The Chinese are on top economically in Malaysia. They're on top educationally. The Malays know that they are less well educated than the Chinese that they are not as wealthy as the Chinese. But they know that they are on top politically.

It's an amazing thing because you always feel that the people who are on top political they have the real power and therefore will be on top economically if the killers think that these two achievements don't go together in Malaysia. Well this is one of the stresses that is coming into the society now in the past during the British stewardship. Britain is concerned with Malaysia as that is a very profitable place for making money. And the laws were such as to facilitate the profitability of enterprise in Malaysia which meant. By and large Chinese and British enterprise in Malaysia gained independence it didn't about say the least painful fashion even of the countries of Southeast Asia there was no war there was no revolution there were very few harsh words spoken. In fact I think the political leaders felt a little bit sad that they didn't ever go to jail. Yeah it's more of a penance and the transition from Colonial to independent status has been a very gradual one so that the economic policy has not changed much it has been a toleration of free enterprise which means largely a toleration of Chinese enterprise. How can you account for the fact that although the Malay is there on top politically

the Chinese dominate and from the point of view of education and wealth What have the Chinese done to accomplish things. Is it they have better education. Well there are lots of differences in fact when the president of the prime minister of Singapore Lee Kuan Yew was here he gave a rather interesting speech at Columbia talking about the difference between those who wear trousers and those who are skirts. That in much of Southeast Asia we find that the Chinese where Charles is both male and female whereas the Southeast Asians by which he meant most cases say Malays are Burmese or Thais where the sarong are discouraged both male and female and he speculated that those who wear trousers are more energetic physically and mentally. There is an element of this. The Chinese in SE Asia are a very lively group. This is especially shown in Singapore they are perceived by outsiders as being more enterprising. Whereas the Malays are I don't want to say more courtly they're more attached to rural and traditional ways.

They're probably more relaxed they don't feel as if they have to prove as much they are a majority with the power. This is a large part if they have power and the prestige that follows from this they feel there is no sense of governing for money to get well. What you said about tribes is interesting since more and more women are wearing trousers. The United States at all hours of the day and night is will only encourage them to think there is a yellow peril that the Chinese are taking over. No no it just may be just a female peril that the women are doing the men wearing trousers. However that's just a curious thing. I think wearing trousers enables one to get around fast. It's true I don't see it I think it is more a symbolic meaning than a physical connection between the atrocities and the sarong although it carries over in many ways in Burma for instance. The army wears trousers and they claim that they are modern whereas the rest of the society both men and women wear wear the sarong or what is called Alone in Burma and it's rather fascinating that since the army revolution in 1962 they

have forced those who are not in the army to wear the sarong in a way keeping them in their non modern style. Where is making them walk more slowly. That is the difference if you like it or if you think you are a man and have never won anything but trousers I take it you will as well when I was in Burma I wore a skirt. Did you walk more slowly. I walk more slowly but it's very hot and I seem to walk slowly the skirt has tremendous advantages for coolness. Charles is a very hot exception to this is the Scottish Highlands too who have been very brave in their outfits and I am very happy and also I will I've never found out the secret of their keeping mum. However basically you know when you talk about these differences between the Chinese and the Malays especially the fact that they cannot intermarriage unless the Chinese person will convert to Muslim. The Muslim religion. Does that mean that they don't associate with each other socially at all.

Only commercially and in education they associate socially and this is much more true of the more modern ones particularly the students at the University at the university the dormitories are un segregated. This gives them some difficulties in serving meals but Chinese and Malay students have friends across this ethnic distinction although even here at the university there is a separation in terms of who studies what the Chinese are much more apt to go into the sciences the Malays into the arts. This is one reason why the Chinese can make more money to go into the higher paying fields. Would you say that this is breaking down with the younger generation but the students who are not as addicted do all of these traditions as their parents and grandparents where. It's breaking down in several ways but I don't know that we can make a very optimistic prognosis for it is breaking down in that at the university. The students like to consider themselves Malaysian is a goodly number of them do. Whether they will maintain this feeling after they get out into the world and get into one of the slotted jobs in which they are associated

more say with either with their own group either Chinese or Malay is another question. Also at the university there are some groups I think particularly say the young Malays from the countryside those who have not had much in the way the educational advantages who feel that they can get ahead by being Molay and therefore demand more Malays privileges in terms of special scholarships or press the demand that educate that instruction should be in the Malay language hoping that this will give them a leg up in competition with the Chinese. Does either group feel superior to the other. So each in their own way I feel superior. I'm fairly sure. Well that's another difference there in different ways but the yes I mean here. For the most part whites have thought that they had some so disappearing already over the black man. I think the black man now feels that this was wrong in every respect not only morally wrong but scientifically and substantially wrong. I don't know that he feels that sense of inferiority any longer but in Malaysia apparently

neither side has as ever felt this in regard to the other. That may be true that each in their own way have felt superior but then the question is which way is the important way and as the society becomes more modern It looks to many of the Malays like they would want to be superior in the same way that the Chinese are. And this is where this the separatist system that has worked in the past seems to be coming under considerable pressure. But if a person does not feel inferior to another person then he is not filled with resentment so that I think he is freer in his behavior and less apt to be unhappier but he can be very hostile when Burmese in the Thai I think both feel superior to each other. But one way the Burmese feel spirit to the Thais that they can beat them in combat. To reduce their hostility for the Thai You seem to be indicating that this coexistence may not run smoothly then in the future. I see great stresses great strains coming into it I'm only cautious about this because for the last 10 years political scientists have been predicting the collapse of Malaysia and it hasn't collapsed. So I

think this is a rather surprising unfortunate. Set of events a final question aside from the differences between the two cultures. How about sexual differences. Do women play an inferior role still in this country or do they manage to co-exist with some equality with men. Oh they definitely inferior role in part because this is one of the more traditional areas of the world. No women in politics. Well women play rather formalistic role in politics the same way that every state in United States has a National National Committee woman as well as a National Committee man but we don't expect you to carry quite the weight of the National Committee man carries. And I wouldn't want to say whether the Malays or the Chinese society puts women in a more inferior role. Yeah well a woman doesn't have too much political power in the United States either. So I've met my wife she's never any non inferior role she was there as a research also. And so she was looked upon as a strange but equal person. I guess as.

Well. Well Professor Doctor this is been very interesting because it manages it helps us to do is dump our nose but still our traditions are so different in our history so different I don't know whether there's anything we can learn from what is taking place in Malaysia. Well maybe we can learn that here is a system where separate cultures have been able to co-exist. But before we try to apply that as a general proposition the United States we have to look at the great differences such as the fact that the separate parties had separate interests. And I do thank you very much for telling us what you have. May I say that our guest has been Dr. James gayo who is a lecturer at the South an Asian Institute at Columbia University. And this is Lee Graham saying goodbye and ask you to remember that although East is East and West is West we do think the time has come for the twain to meet. That concludes tonight's edition of the Asia Society presents with Lee Graham. The series comes to you through the cooperation of the Asia Society. If you would like to

comment on tonight's program or would like further information about the society and how you can participate in its many interesting activities please write to Mrs. Graham at WNYC New York City 100 0 7 and make a note to join us again next week at this time for another edition of the Asia Society presents. This program was distributed by the national educational radio network.