Conductor as Music Historian; The World of the Conductor

The world of the conductor a series of programs in which leading conductors of today speak about symphonic music in the 20th century. Going to. The world of the conductor is produced and recorded by a station W.H. y y in Philadelphia under a grant from the National Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. Thank you. Oh and. This is James Keeler inviting you to join us for this the second of two programs bearing the subtitle The conductor as a historian of music. We'll be speaking with Eugene Ormandy about his personal acquaintance with Carl Orff Bela Bartok and Sergei Rahman a little bit later on

in the program we'll be joined by two distinguished members of the Metropolitan Opera the mezzo soprano Rosalind Elias and the bassist Jerome Hines. They will join Mr. Armadale in a discussion of Bela bar talks one act opera. Duke Bluebeard's Castle. The German composer Carl Orff has become one of the most frequently performed of today's composers of course and is particularly well-known for the cantata Carmina Burana. We remarked to Eugene Ormandy that it was rather unusual these days to find a work by a contemporary composer which has so quickly become part of the standard repertory. It's so refreshing in these times to find a work by a composer which is taken to the public heart shall we say as much as this one has. That's right I saw him I met him this summer and we were together almost every day. He's a real good meat least well off

and we were having more lives which a hell of a lot of wonderful anecdotes musical and otherwise and I'm not very bad at them leaders here we just exchanged out one of the stories we were just together constantly and he I told him about another one of the performance but also that we were going to record it as oh my god the eleventh time that's the only reaction you had. But then he was very happy and he told me he would he wishes he could be here which I'm afraid not because it was too expensive you know to come over here. Yes. I'm hungry and by birth you know I'm a day studied at the Royal Academy in Budapest with the late Bela Bartok. Recently Mr Ormandy planned to begin a season by the Philadelphia Orchestra with a performance of Barr talks opera Duke Bluebeard's Castle and as we began a conversation with Mr Ormandy Rosalind Elias son Jerome Hines who were to sing the roles of Judith and Blue

Beard. We spoke to Mr On Monday about the difficulties of the work. Maestro this is quite a work to begin the season with. Yes it is to be found out. Well I wonder if I might direct for a moment my questions to miss Elias and Mr Hines. We so often associate leave vocal writing in 20th century music with next extreme difficulty. Of course I'm thinking of the 12 tone school and that sort. What about bar talks vocal writing we don't hear very much this Bluebeard's Castle was written I believe in the beginning of his career and it's very it's not to act on Oh it's it's very single and it's not that easy I must say it but vocally it's very singable I don't find any difficulty at all. My view was that I feel that most of the dissonance is all of the accompaniment particularly but the vocal lines themselves are almost conventional take us into that one the

word Mr Hines. Why I like dissonance or where you know you said something yeah. The company man to me. All right. We missed a life and I only accompanist. Excuse me I'm not going to be further from the truth. The fact is that I know what you imagined. But I just had to think of Jeb with NBC this is this is the years I have you are giving I know it's very symphonic work of any opera has ever been so funny this is a very varied by the way you vocalize so interwoven with the orchestra. But go right ahead don't go so far I've only heard it with piano music so I have to think of in terms of a government that's true. Maestro What about the style of this work and does they come with it 1911. Something like that is just a little before our little are just around the second dependent on the work. Very surprising very strangely. They're almost a no school I think Bartle was more as a creator of his own school. That's

what someone. Yes it is but sometimes you trace back Beethoven back to Mozart Mozart back to Haydn Bach you trace back and handle your days back to books to who would etc. You obviously these days these composers back I'm sure that. Bar talk could be traced back if you're very careful about that and carefully trying to find where he comes from his musical ideas but he was an innovator in every sense of the word musically speaking. That the his study of the Hungarian folk songs and the Rumanian for songs from an early childhood his and called Alice they were separately searching making long sometimes lasting months at the time just go among the peasants of Hungary and Transylvania and trying to listen to the song folk songs to us peasants saying to their children to themselves as various occasions he has noted down everything that he had heard and many of these

folks will quality is noticeable and found to be found in his after us in our other works on these Ballys but I dare say that battled himself in my opinion was the father of his own school. And I ask a question here yes I am particularly fascinated by the wonderful variety of rhythmic structures in his work. Is that particular do you think evoke. Well it's a it's not only very vocally better than ours Yes it's partially the folk music of cause. Part of the typical Hungarian rhythm which you can detect I was like you know so I just wanted to go. I know it was me but I was sort of one of a variety of really great variety but it's again bottle himself. Do you feel that he's at school because he brings in the bulk and then changes to contemporary and goes back. Not exactly he sees it the way he sees it. The music goes through his mind his creative mind in the ways that I have to tell your story that very few people

know because I've I've only told it two or three times in my whole life. When I was about eight or nine years old already a student at the Royal Academy bar talk gave one of his annual piano recitals of his own works and to me it was a great shock to learn that people made fun while he was playing on the stage so much so of being a sensitive child I went backstage and he was my professor and I said to him Professor I was so shocked to see what they did with your music that I could have the expression and I can't even apologize because they made so much fun about it. And he says oh I heard it very well. As a matter of fact this is I have been going through this for years. He said My dear young boy you're very young yet but remember what I tell you now I am 30 years ahead of my time in 30 years time they will appreciate my music and he had to die one day to become

world famous the following day. Isn't this tragedy. We were speaking about you mentioned stock you point out. Yes and I've always felt that in a way our talk in Stravinsky's composing crews had a certain similarity in that each had a sack to plant on Bartok had the Miraculous Mandarin. After I got a start in a way not all over again but from a completely new direction. And what about the wooden Prince. Yes yes another one. The question comes to one's mind I don't know who can answer this excepting. Because Bob is unfortunately dead but of the two it has have ever met before during that period a formative period as well when they develop their own individuality it's that's a question that someday I'm going to ask you because I often thought of the great parallel musically speaking between the two men even though their ways parted thereafter. But each had something new to to give to the world the music same as in painting and

architecture at the very same time. Yes you mentioned that during rehearsal tonight we had a break. You mention that there is so much there. So much in common some Stravinsky bar talks are the same as in paintings you find certain modern French school in the early early century this is one thousand eight hundred ten and eleven and twelve It would have these so many great paintings were created and they's a similarity in steel each goes his own individual way. You are singing this in an English translation. Yes. Well that will certainly be of great help to the audience. Yes in fact we were very careful about the English. Unfortunately we've only discovered the last week so to speak that there's another very good English translation. But that would be murder to asked to great artists for saying saying this operates so beautifully to jeopardize the security and jeopardize their wonderful interpretation for the sake of maybe looking for a

word that they had just learned against the one they had learned six months ago. So I refused to use that very good. Well I rather imagine that Rosalind like I always when we don't operas in English the past is somewhat tempered with translation a little bit of sparse to make it you know it's not I was yes it's very difficult I often found translations to English that don't always fit the music or a rhythm. And then one of the two have to has to be changed. I've been giving Mr Ormandy trouble all evening because I went back and put the original Hungarian rhythms back into my translation whereas the English translation had followed the German changes that have been brought about. I've always felt rather purist about trying to make the words fit the music well make music at the worst the highest you could never get give me trouble but if you really want to know the trouble it was during the rehearsal. Some people didn't didn't notice I only have the germs and I know that's that's you know my score. That's what so I had to guess when you were singing in English that's right so

the notes were different everything else. This reminds me of that famous round robin translation of the bells for the Rachmaninoff Sendak which comes from the English to the Russian back to the German And how is it. Well the English was translated to the original English was translated to German and the German was translated to Russian Rachmaninoff read the Russian poem and he wanted to do it in English so he made his own English translation from the original English. I wonder if it was all really funny and I knew him very well as you probably all know. We were accused and he told me the story and he had laughed about it but he says I am sorie said it is wonderful if Rush releases. After all the first time I read it I could not speak English and of cause in the rational it's all of this way so I have to have it translated just from the Russian. And with this conversation with Eugene Ormandy Rosalind Elias and Jerome

Hines we've concluded the series of programmes in which we've spoken about symphonic music in the 20th century with some of the leading conductors of our time Paul Kletzky William Steinberg Leopold Stokowski Igor Markovitch Eric Leinsdorf Anastasio Mae and Eugene Ormandy James Keeler speaking the world of the conductor was produced and recorded by station W.H. y y in Philadelphia under a grant from the National Educational Television and Radio Center and is being distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. Wait. This is the end of E.B. Radio Network.