Kinsey: Clyde Martin Parts 1 & 2

I like that I know you're not going to powder my nose and I can wear the same kind of pattern I know because you need it. That with it. And maybe I don't know I think we talk about Kinsey The man kind of man when he was your first impression of him Well I first know him as I think a junior in college. He worked the same building where I had a job with the zoology library. And I first became acquainted one day when there was a rain going on and he was wearing this this main fisherman's hat. And I remember saying Grant Where did you get that hat. And this led to our becoming better acquainted too. Ultimately he's asking me to contribute a case history through his study.

He had begun interviews. By that time I found the interview extremely useful and interesting. I was very naive. Most days he put my mind at ease with respect to sexual questions but from a tremendous experience. Something to talk about and contribute and proceeded to write at that time I was living in a rooming house with about a dozen other fellows. And. Ultimately I got all of them go over and contribute to history. I think that was somewhat later. I've tried getting more better acquainted with Dr. Kinsey. One of the things that came out in the interview was that I was financially rather hard up and had toyed with the idea of quitting at the end of the semester

because I really felt very lonesome I didn't have any money for dates and that's it. And here's where he offered me a job helping working in his garden. He had purchased the two lots and each side of his home he had discovered that they were up for sale and this frightened them. And so they bought both these lines and was in the process of landscaping to incorporate both of these into the larger picture around his home. To me it was wonderful because he liked to. This was his recreation weekend and I enjoyed the out of doors and the shift from studies and so on. And here is where we really became much better acquainted. What was he like to work for.

I think perhaps the most easiest person to work for in the world that I've ever met as long as you did you were I ask you to because my question is could I ask you just say I think kids it was the person to I would say so that I can get my question out totally and then you have completed all that. Go ahead. Well I think he was what other people to work with but I could imagine as long as one did their work and was conscientious and he was full of praise and see. And I was always very appreciative of the purse for most people working with them. Most were impressed by his hard work. A very very persistent worker and his example of course always kind of suggests encourage people to follow his example.

Tell me about the relationship of Kinsey and. You and Gephardt and Hemraj Pumla I called you like it was like a family you know is that like Kim you're close. You are a close group. Well. Paul was the last one to join the group I believe is 19. Forty six forty seven. But this really was the inner core of the four people who held confidence and access to the case histories. I often travel well I didn't interview as much as the other man. I think ultimately I viewed about 200 people before I left in 1960 and cobbling together being stuck in hotel rooms and out you know in cities away from home together and so on

we all became very good friends and and was wonderful cars is that no major conflicts ever really came up. Conflicts can be extremely better in close knit groups by a member of a family. No conflicts can leave extremely bitter feelings. I think the only conflicts that came up in among the four of us was after Dr. Kinsey's death Dr. Palmer on her tried to jointly administer the project. And I I was a more junior member I didn't have the degrees that they had. I was younger and I felt that I had no influence at all and I disagreed with some of their policies as they were implementing.

And there was a period where I was extremely bitter and it was during this period that I resigned and met up with a man named Dr. Michael SIMKIN who encouraged me to return to graduate study and to take up the problem of lung cancer the uterine cervix in women because there was some reason to believe at that time that some aspect of sexual life had some causal relationship to cancer. And. So during the period up until I actually time I actually left I'm going to have bitter feelings. Fortunately I find that they've all dissipated and I like Paul very much like we're delivering lunch and feeling really well. You are the only one of the four researchers who was there during the call wasps. Yes.

It that's such a remarkable transition from Gall wasps to sexual histories in several states. Could you talk about that a little bit for those of us. Well this arose of course from our becoming better acquainted during my working with him in the garden. As a matter of fact he became well acquainted with the whole Kennedy family quite very much all of them very much still do. But this led to his using me in the laboratory because I had had some hard work some sketchy I had. It was quite good of making charts and figures with drawing materials and he cursed that eventually led to my also assisting in the sexual material world where he put it that I was educable.

I really didn't have much of opinion as to whether sex between two men was good or bad or right or wrong. And I had never I never thought of that. There were a lot of aspects of sexual behavior where I really had very open mind. On the other hand I think if you've looked over some of the volumes and so on. There was some issue here where we were testing people for years past when our viewers who seemed to have very strong opinions about the rightness or wrongness of various sorts of sexual activity. I was holding them when I wrote I've got it or. Am I being too long winded by I pointed out again and they. Were. Pausing Anyway. I think just remember these are quiet. All right. I can tell you

personally personally I've done very little teaching. I'd probably be better off going oh no that's fine. Now supposedly the way he pursued collecting sexual studies was very similar to the way he pursued collecting golf. Yes. Restate that and tell me about it. Tell me what kind of research it was. We had a this impulse to collect but it wasn't the guy to collect. He didn't collect everything. Some people do always. But he had discovered in his study the goal was he needs for tremendous amounts of material part because of the many problems he was trying to study the goal

was the variation from geographic locality to another. Then he came back after 10 year intervals and sampled some of the same populations. The thing that impressed him about human sexual activity of course was tremendous individual variation among men the tremendous individual variation among women. I think he made a mistake in many ways by not attempting to do more systematic sampling in his day. This occurs with more educated hindsight sort of criticism by what he had in mind was when he talked about trying to gather a hundred thousand pieces trees. This seems a bit ridiculous at this point in time. But really what he had in mind was.

Cumulation of literally thousands of cases. So that Taung people could be divided into many subgroups and individual subgroups lucked out. That is you divide population into male and female and you divide males into various age groups. You can divide those of course into those with more education those with education those are Jewish Protestant Catholic. And ultimately you come to many cells of where any single people had all characteristic to come in. And the notion was I think that you would be able to compare this well the people who are still people not. So it was very inefficient way of sampling. On the other hand. He was in a new area of research inquiry that had been very much neglected.

And one of the things that has to occur when some new subject matter for research opens up is collecting so that you can get some idea of what is there what the variations might be what difference what subgroup differences there may be on by gathering them a great diversity of material. You'll gain clues as to things that you want to look further into now by simply gathering a lot of material. We ended up of course with enough material to do a volume on a volume on women as a matter of fact there's a lot more material there for a lot more volumes simply because our net was so widespread so broad. That Pomeroy in his book talks about

doing research by way of hypotheses as a more efficient way. And that's very good idea for many kinds of problems but it is also true that when you have great material in great abundance as he had you could still investigate a lot of hypotheses without triggering a necessarily gathering the case histories just for that one hypothesis for example on one of the interesting things about I discovered in my own studies actually after he left the institute in man lives downtown there's a very strong correlation for example between aged first intercourse and the number of sexual partners that the person has had intercourse with those people who began intercourse early in life are the

ones who ended up with a lot more sexual partners those who were late in beginning getting involved in intercourse with the ones who had fewer partners. I found that this is also true in the women that I studied. And as a matter of fact I'd like to get the people in the institute to investigate this because it first glance you might say well there's a correlation here because of sex drive. People with high sex drive begin intercourse soon as we have more sexual partners. But I took my maternal and divided people according to the quantity of sexual intercourse it had and those who'd had the most intercourse. The same correlation held for them and the people who had the least amount of undercurrents or sexual activity total sex like they had this correlation between age of first intercourse number of partners true for them as a matter of fact I looked the

Jewish people the Catholic people the Protestant same correlation occurs in every subgroup that I looked at. So there is something very interesting re causal between these two variables that is needs explanation. I think there may be a rather simple one and that is that the person who becomes sexually active quite young gains confidence and they become aware. That there are sexual adventures to be had. There are people who are willing to become active sexually and then it's really kind of a type of bonding perhaps for the individual you know becomes a world where of social issues and social criticism. But it's a very distinct and strong correlation both. Well that's a hypothesis. It's interesting and if you're going to try to

get people to become less promiscuous one thing that keeps them from getting involved of course is their way of life. I think that would probably follow that kind of reason. I would. I want you to tell me what we are trying at in the bar when you talk about what it was like to take a sexual history. We're talking. This very all you ask me about what it was like to conduct an interview. Yeah. And the point I was trying to make is that a an interview of course is a certain amount of communication there for a limited period of time. And if people's sexual histories were a lie

interviewing inner person after person in the course of the day it could become very dull. And the saving grace for most of us with the fact that practically everyone has a somewhat different kind of sexual history and a different kind of personality so that there wasn't really repetition there were new problems there were new nuances to almost every interview and it was really the thing that sustained his sense in terms of interviewing many people in the course of the day what were the keys to getting people to talk about their sexual history you say hi. Well for most of our interviewing many of these people became acquainted with what we are about through Dr. King's his lectures. He had often discussed the

importance of sexual information with respect to sexual problems. He would of course end up in a lecture by an appeal to have people to contribute their own case histories in that sense people had were motivated to that point of making an appointment and appearing for it. On the other hand many of them really didn't know quite what to expect. Most of course had discussed sex with roommates and close friends to some degree. On the other hand many people have had many experiences in their life that they're heartily ashamed of or or were at one time and had never really discussed the facts of their own masturbation or some other experience that they had were uncertain about.

So you are of course problem one is to put the person at ease and limit ourselves first of all the questions mostly about the educational background about their power and parental home. Things are rather easy to talk about before introducing questions having to do with Eddie speak to them sexual history and then of course depending on the whether the person was male or female or well educated or poorly educated we would get into one or another part of his sexual history that was usually more commonly accepted in the group for most people. Of course the questioning was really quite straightforward. How old were you the first time you had intercourse or how old were you. The first time you were made to come by another boy or by a man

many people had never really discussed these them in any serious way for many of them it was a very interesting experience and I think I mentioned to you what how interesting it had been to me. I had done. In my high school days had come up with a and became acquainted with a man who was a postal clerk who gave me some training in public speaking. And he also endeavored to give me some sex education as I recall along the way. Except it was the sort of sex education that was more designed to give you the nerves right for two days anyway. So the interview with Kinsey was I found most reassuring in terms of my own sexual issues yes in terms of my.

It's the whole story you told in terms of your own sexual history you know start starting with that whole little story again why you found the interview with Kinsey so interesting that. You. Ran a tape. Well one reason that I think my interview with him about my own case history had been the fact that. I had taken some public speaking classes from the gentleman in my high school days who really was very good friend and a marvelous man. He is also very good Catholic and cautioned me on a number of things of things that I should not do sexually. So that I really had very uncertain about these. And. One of the things Dr. King did was to reassure me as to the normality of the behavior.

I've been involved in. Is there any more to that question. I don't to. I want to talk about. Do you remember the story of when the marriage courses start. How really he started. Yes. This has been prince what he'd done. Well you know since you say is on it is a whole new group of people that never read anything in print. You asked me oh say are you going to ask me the first time. Tell me the story about when student started this whole thing started because they started marriage courses. Yes. Because. Yeah. Yes. See the women's a women's group on campus who had petitioned the administration at Indiana University for

marriage course. And there's a group with the faculty of I think half a dozen faculty or more with Kenzi as church. Were appointed to organize marriage course. And the first course was presented in 1938. There was repeated then in 1939 when I took it as you know I think a junior college. I remember that Kinsey taught the three lectures on biology of Mary. Mr. Moffett from economics talked about economics of marriage that a minister would see a rabbi on Catholic priest and a minister talk about these religious aspects of marriage. And there are half a dozen other

lecture lectures of the sort was extremely popular and to hold it down you had to either be a journal or you have to be engaged or something. It's important however that they opened up to a wider audience even then I still had to get parental permission. But it was dramatic because men and women sat together in the same room and they actually talked about you know how often people have intercourse free. How free from being married and so on on the other hand the course came in for a lot of criticism from Thurmon writings from some members of the medical school faculty there on campus. And eventually

Kinsey had started gathering some interviews from people came in with special questions. And this really led to a sufficient number of. Amount of criticism that President wels suggested that kids either continue with the gathering of the material the say sex histories and outmarriage course or continue with the marriage course in the interviews at the time he made the choice to continue with research. The course was reconstituted by some members of the medical school and it lasted only several years because he was such a boring cars that it became you know was boycotted. It really had reverted practically to a birds and bees and fishes kind of

description human bile. Were you aware when. Were you aware when you were doing that this sexual research that what you were doing is significant. I mean were you aware of how significant applies not to the extent that I did later. And Spener fact I I found that we all felt very much part of a pioneering effort. We knew that there was very little material in the literature. We knew what literature was there and so all of us for of course conducted interviews and quite honestly astonished by the difference there was between what was in the literature and what people said they were doing. And. People ordinarily of course don't go around letting people know what their sexual

interest are. And very often it was really quite a contrast from what the person said in his history as to what you might have thought his sexual history might be. You had no way of knowing really. First of all people. Differ so much in how frequent they want sex. That is some people are interested in sex maybe once among other people at least sexual activity once a day. And to see these people on the street you wouldn't be able to distinguish one from the other on or you wouldn't guess which which was which. There's so little resemblance between appearance and what people were doing wrong. Yes we.

Well I never really comprehended until after the publication book and saw a tremendous amount of criticism and literature interest but it mostly came back came to me when I attended parties around New York City and people were you know expressing their astonishment that people could get other people to tell them about their sexual histories and it was really the reaction of so many people that impressed. What was the difference basically between the method and the way it was put together between me and the male lion and if you know well the male volume contain some rather embarrassing errors or you look at you hold that volume in your hand and it really is.

Yes they say it is a dull statistical Thome in many ways. And there were some very important shortcomings. The so-called U.S. correction should never have been done. I think we had better statistical advice we would not have done it. The so called clinical tables where I think Super this the there's kind of a repetition of masturbation being discussed in one chapter here and then much the same rather repetitive use the material in another context. It is really too bad down material couldn't have been organized. Into about half that size. And but anyway we didn't we weren't really that knowledgeable were what we were knowledgeable about of course was how to conduct those

interviews and how to get that material together and to show that it had lessons or messages in it for us that simply very few people comprehended. And as they say there's this mirror of society and the fact. That the mail because almost every male becomes active almost immediately at puberty and remains quite active. I mean at that frequency that are fairly regular for men for the rest of his life essentially it just hadn't been comprehended. And you pointed out that you pointed out that people are sexual beings and that simply because people didn't really remark on it or discuss it very much didn't mean that it wasn't going on.

In fact. Things are so kind of on discussed that I think there were a lot of people who could live out their lives let's say lady who never married could live out her life never really quite sure whether other people have sex or no one must lie. You could very well you know that was simply not discussed on the back of them is brutally frank in many ways. And the one on women. It's really somebody today who doesn't know something about this is is rather not whether. We should say the impact of his problems were I mean looking back on what did it change.

You know as far as you know somebody who really really can't look back because of your research. Well how did the two volumes the two volumes of the whole research process the whole volumes and the research and the institute. Well it certainly has made things more open and I don't wholly approve of who they might help with this myself. By the time of Christ we were all convinced and more knowledge about what actually occurs is important for determining social policy for determining how perhaps to improve sexual relations and bearings. Whether or not certain kinds of sexual activity is somehow disastrous to personality or to people to the person. In it. Well it's a lot a lot for people to

become better acquainted with the reality of human sexuality. I think today for example when our surgeon general tries to tell people about safe sex and so on. There has been a long span of years that's where are we giving society a chance to become better acquainted with such a thing is the presence of homosexuality in our society that young people can become quite active act even intercourse quite early in life and you're going to have to catch some of these if you're going to try to keep them from becoming you know from having contact with people with AIDS. So I think we wouldn't be nearly as well-prepared as a society to accept some of these messages about Avoid preventing AIDS or

avoiding them being more conservative in terms like we're conduct without enough knowledge that these appeals could be accepted and understood. You it seems like they're still there still is some off white kids who was fighting again. He didn't he wasn't just a researcher I'm trying to say you can restate the question because in sort of setting you up with the answer he also had strong feelings particularly people who took a moral philosophy as a way of talking about sexuality. Does that make sense to you. I'm getting to well what his attitude really was toward sex. Well in general I think Kinsey felt quite accepting about what other people do sexually. Now all of us on the staff of course didn't try to

embrace every type of sexual activity. You know you don't have to be on habited you can still live your life as you want but when you are trying to understand the sexuality of other people most these people became active in their sexual activities for very good reasons or for reasons that are quite understandable if you knew their histories in some detail. Just because people have sexual activities different than your own doesn't mean you have a right to be quite critical of it. I've lost the point of the Kinsey's attitude toward that. Yes. And the rest of the staff on not me you would continue to try to make in her book brought out and Palmer into what kind of a moral prude

he was in his very early years. I think in part this help prepare him because his naivete in his younger years on me realize what a tremendous contrast there was between what was actually going on and what people often world where was going on. And I think he always had kind of a chuckle in it because people in many ways were so. Simply unaware. But beyond that and he was very much aware that when something was really quite common by male masturbation resume practice Oh well 95 percent or better of males you know have had a substantial

history of masturbation. The fact that it's so common suggests that that's pretty normal behavior or at least if it could cause problems we would become aware of it if it destroyed health we might very well comprehend that there is some reason for it. But the this let him course to get into the whole question of how do we describe things as normal or abnormal. And he has written of course material on this that's very interesting and very useful. And one of the things of course is that if you find practically all members of a species engaging in a certain type of behavior it must be pretty normal to have that kind of behavior. Now it has been argued that the common cold is common occurrence

common commonly and you wouldn't call this healthy behavior. On the other hand in terms of assessing whether it's normal to get a call we all realize then that it's not all that unusual to get the common cold. Sort of an expected way of living. How hurt were you when our staff when I know he was hurt according to my book in any case about. The critics. You know the specialty of scientists and researchers who really I mean they are lambasted one side and another is your praise to them. Well there was a lot of support coming on the same time. Now first of all I'm sure that Kinsey you all of us felt absolutely sure that what we had been doing was reputable research and very important for the future

attitudes of society in the area of sexual activity. And I think many who I think we tended to realize that many of these critics were either ignorant or kind of emotionally on balance or fanatic in front of them. Some of their religious views perhaps. And. Much of the whole area in terms of assessing sexual activity really makes good common sense if you know the facts. And a lot of these people really just didn't know the world they didn't know the facts of the world and if they knew the facts they'd probably feel differently. But it's true that there were a number of people in science whose criticisms bothered him a good

deal. Now. I think saw criticisms came out because even in science there are there are many scientists who have very strong attitudes prejudices and I think some of them felt found the kinds of studies were kind of overwhelming. People with premise the idea of premice permissiveness. Actually suggesting to people that almost everything sexually that was sexual was perfectly all wrong. I don't think the message really was there. We didn't try to be permissive or suggest that people be permissive we didn't really try to tell people to lower their inhibitions as clinicians are always trying to do in

many ways our hands were a lot cleaner. And that. In retrospect I think what we did has been absolutely marvelous for society. It really has been the two volumes provided two rather important shocks that were put forward as various scientific works on. That. There is so much data and in such detail it is kind of overwhelming not to encourage people to be more active sexually. In fact I don't think that we are trying because so sexual activity as many people are today. For example there are many people keep writing articles that will

have assuming that these are due to sexual inhibitions and are of the belief that because these people come from. You know these people who are born before 19:00 back to the days of more Victorian attitudes that that's the reason these older people are ceasing to be Secondly because they come from that generation. So they go out of their way to encourage people to say sex is OK. You know it's OK for you. And so I really see myself and I like it is that there. And I think it's all useless. I mean it's senseless because I think most older people have their own views as to whether sex is Girma bad judging from their past life experiences. And for most people at least in the research problem program that I've been on.

The people in the program has all been older men I have never seen such marvelous marriages. Now these people are volunteers to the program to the study of aging program but they tend to be extremely good marriages. And I think very satisfactory sex lives. And part of it is that. They tend to be very highly educated group. Financially they're in pretty good shape and and their health has been unusually good. All these things have contributed to making him probably more active sexually than the mind run of men in society of their ages.

And but their attitudes are very positive. And even though some are dropping out simply because they may no longer recognize sexual stimulation but they're comfortable with it so yeah no problem. Yeah. Now psychiatrists and psychologists almost never see a say people who have stopped having sex and are very comfortable because they don't have a problem with it I think a lot of these people are no longer procaine but they don't get upset over their lack of potency because they don't care whether they have sex or not they don't have a problem. And there's a whole segment of older men in this world who really are no longer acting very happy with their lack of activity. Wouldn't dream of going to a clinician. And what is

amazing is that these clinicians don't know that there is people wrong. Do you have a favorite kid's story. I mean you have something you think that would be wonderful to tell. I think practically every Kenzie's story I've ever heard I've heard you know many times many times it was the same the same ones when Pommery booking Cornelia's book and some of the. Right. They very well curse like this woman who said she had discovered masturbation herself and she could have patented. She made a million. Well first that's been repeated by

everyone. Did you ever see him take a sexual has for you you do this how you train. Oh yes. Yes. What are they they talk about how how persuasive was he doesn't make a very persuasive very right. Well in many ways this is just an cambered we have to have this Cameroun. I want to touch just something that I just he just. Think now. Yeah. Tell me about him. So I said well first of all he had been a very fine teacher for many years. He you know from his books he conducted many of these nature courses in school camps. He wrote biology textbook for high school students. He loved teaching really. And he had this tremendous capacity to simply

come up with these lectures now where things are neatly organized and so on. And one of the things that used to scare us to pieces we would say our trip to New York. He was giving a major lecture let's say to some Jewish organization and city. He's giving some lectures over at Juilliard School of Music hoping to get some music major histories. I did a lot of him he said. And but he would throw himself into this interview you know getting them going and interviewing interviewers in the course of the day as they could. And so suddenly you know and realize that he had this lecture coming up at 8 o'clock that night. So here we were in a taxi you know rushing back to the hotel to get a shower and so I had better get a taxi and go and tell him to go to where this lecture was me get

out the three of the five card. And his. Hand and say OK now what should we tell him you know. And he got out about four or five kind of leads here and I guess we're just kind of imprinted in his mind or something and he would end up giving the most call Most reason most marvelous lecture. And you wonder how someone could could reorganize their mental functioning quite so effectively. He was superb at really organizing material. Actually. I never did very much writing myself. See we tended to feed mirror material to him. We had meetings and someone about things that should go in the book. And in planning the research. But we all

happily let him reduce the material to the printed word. And he was most effective and that's my own writing since that time has been a Borjas thing and you know my writing goes for something like 20 versions. It's called the brute force technique. But his that was part of his genius but perhaps the most outstanding feature of him. Was that in a day when he began this all this program he was convinced that this was a replicable area of research human sexual activity. And very few people at that time seemed to go along

or appreciate that idea. I think this is one reason there was as little research in print as there was perhaps there's another reason and that is even today there are many people who conduct the kinds of interviews the kinds of inquiry that we had been doing in those two volumes. Now I did this kind of thing and this as a doctoral dissertation interviewing Jewish women with cancer of the cervix Jewish women with Kenshin cervix using these techniques to describe these groups individuals sexually so that I could compare this group with this group to find out whether there were a statistically significant difference between those with cancer and those without looking for factors that might distinguish or differentiate them. Now this kind of research isn't done very much.

I'm not quite sure why on there casually people are look at men with prosthetic cancer. There's one study I think made perhaps two studies of that sort. There are quite a number of cases that have been done before women with and without cancers cervix but those were all by questionnaires. And I do like using the interview because. It is an extremely important educational process for the person conducting interviews. Hugo go into the medical literature on the day they describe women with cancer and sex perhaps loose women or women of what's called poor sexual hygiene. Well when I came to interview these women I ended up

finishing these interviews convinced that these women weren't any different from my controls. So my I was one them. Nothing shady or suspect but in fact when I finished my interviews I really didn't think that I had discovered anything and it wasn't until you know going on my statistics together and so on and the work of previous researchers came to realize that I found the same things are true of the Jewish women who had been true from reporting from other studies on other groups of women. And this was important. But it wasn't. So what psychologists tend to do what psychiatrists and psychologists have tended to do in the past is to walk that sexual activity through on their clinical experience

and any kind of them. You might say clinical impression. Psychiatrists and psychologists have been very poor in terms of gathering so-called systematic information that would lead to simple statistical data that you could compare. And that's true today to a high degree. There are is very little going on. You need serious scientific way to build up a science of human sexuality that's been conducted since the days of Clinton and I'm really kind of astonished that is I guess when you said you know I told you I was going to do this an interview but it was also like so long ago. And you put it in the context of what you just said. That's a lot. And the studies are surprising. I should just read them for the first time. Well what studies there are done being done

are scientific in a way in the sense that they keep trying to find out whether some kind of hormonal difference might be characteristic of people with and without sex problems and they're always wanting to put cuffs on male penises to see what kinds of erotic stimuli will bring them to orgasm or bring arousal in women in a sense they're going to more to more instrumentation in trying to be more scientific but I think there are many important questions in terms of the anatomy the physiology the neurology the psychology of human psychology the. Could be approached from a combination of good history taking and then other material.

Now this is why I was so happy to join the Gerontology study because the men in that program were there are being studied for their aging. So there's whole staff studying their respiration their medical aspects their strength and endurance their hormones. And so I could also find out whether people who are stronger have more sex or whether people have more sex live longer than people who have less sex. And as a matter of fact the answer is No. If you were going to put together a documentary about Kinsey yourself you had this ominous ominous task here what would you emphasize. Because you know I'm stuck with what I read from what I read. And if you've had years yourself to do this work I mean the most unique thing about. Yeah yeah.

Important Thing or What's overlooked when you know all that we have out there that we're reading all the time. Well of course I think he was a fine gentleman. He was a very compassionate individual. But many of these things have been recognized. He had extremely fine mind. And I've had experience with his journey of proprium of meeting people from Department of Agriculture we were loaded with a lot of people from government bureaus people from the patent office the Navy and so on and everyone else we ran across to of these really you know intellectual people. They're very different than you and me.

I beg your pardon sir. You got it. No no no no. But there is a a a group of people who intellectually are in a world of their own in the way they view the world and their capacity to kind of grasp the world and so on. And he was certainly not unusual in this. You know he had this deep interest in music and in the lives of composers and writing about music. He had just read such a thing he got interested in anyone to read about it and learn more about it. He would just constantly learn there always. Why not. Cornelia emphasized how you got interested making room directs the person learning how to make all kinds of brings a huge collection of rum bottles. Well he was

saying you know he just was never bored. He was just to the very end of his life interested in all kinds of things or there were there were serious interest in him. He really didn't have much of an interest in life using small talk television. A lot of things then. Now that I'm retired I read a lot of detective stories. He didn't have time for trivia. And so he's always very serious thought of it. Well what would have been mean to say politically harking back to what did happen when he died but what would have happened or could have happened to all that material if he lived or if something else

did happen when it happened and all that. I mean it was like 20 more books or something. And what should have had. Well all the materials are still in the possession of the city.