Focus 580; The Riddle of Amish Culture

Or succeed without We'll be talking this morning with a sociologist who has lived and worked among the Amish and he's written a book about them. The title of the book is the riddle of Amish culture. Our guest is Donald Kraybill He teaches at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania. The book is set in Lancaster County Pennsylvania which is the home of the oldest surviving Amish settlement in the world. It is also the world's most densely populated settlement and it isn't a quite interesting book and it offers a view I think into a society that ordinarily one one would not get. And as he suggests in the book also it gives us an opportunity to think a little bit more about our own values as we study and get acquainted with the values of the Amish. This book The riddle of Amish culture is published by the Johns Hopkins University Press. Donald Kraybill is winner of the national religious book award for the upside down Kingdom among his other books our perils of professionalism facing nuclear war and our Star-Spangled faith. He's joining us this morning by telephone and as we talk of course you folks who are

listening are invited to call in maybe I'll have some questions. The telephone number here is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free if you're outside of champagne Urbana anywhere that you hear us you can use the toll free number that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Professor grey Bill good morning. Hello David. Thank you very much for being with us. It's very good to be with you. I'd like to ask first if you would talk a little bit about what your how your interest begin drawn to be drawn to the Amish and why you were interested in in studying them and in writing about them. Well I grew up here in my Custer County. I actually grew up on a farm with Mennonite parents and so I lived side by side with the Amish since my childhood. And as a sociologist I'm interested in different groups and different cultures and the Amish experience in their struggle with modernization was very fascinating so it seemed like a natural

thing for me. Maybe you might give a little bit of history of the Amish and where they came from how they came to the United States and and what what are some of the major beliefs that they live by their theological and historical roots go back to Europe to the 16th century. They were a part of what is known as a radical reformation that broke off from the major Protestant Reformation in 15 25. They were part of a group called and a Baptist for a number of years. That term was given to the group as a nickname because they believed in adult baptism. And at that time. First of including the Protestants most of the churches were baptizing children as infants and the Anabaptists argued that only adults should be baptised AFTER THEY MAKE AN ADULT momentary decision. Out of that group sprang a

number of particular groups the Hutterites the Mennonites the Amish and the Amish emerged as a separate and distinct group in sixteen ninety three in southern Germany and actually what today is a outface region of France. They immigrated to the United States in the early seventeen hundred seventeen twenties and seventeen thirties and became farmers in Pennsylvania and then eventually moved on to Ohio and Indiana and even today in Illinois. Today they're scattered across the United States in 20 different states and total about 175 different settlements in the. Twenty different states as well as the Canadian province of Ontario. You explained that if you want to understand Amish culture there is a German word that one must understand and not just understand it literally but but understand it in it in the fullness of its meaning and the word

is the last in height. I don't know madame our pronunciation is up to it. Tell us what does that mean and in what ways do you see this in in Amish life. Perhaps the quickest way to get a grasp of what a loss that height is is to say what it's not. It's the opposite of aggressive and assertive individual as I'm essentially Glosson height refers to the relationship between an individual and a group and the loss of height translated would mean submission of subordination. Humility APTN to a larger collective order as over against aggressive assertive individual ism. The last insight is expressed in many different ways in Amish culture One way would be in the body language. If you meet an Amish person you normally would not aggressively shake their hand like you might in American culture.

The body language just slower you walk slower you talk slower. You don't interrupt people or butt in in a conversation as quickly. So part of it would be expressed simply in a body language of the individual. Secondly it would be expressed in the values of the culture of simplicity humility concern for a BDM to those in authority. The simplicity and humility would be expressed in the form of dress that one wears a darker collar set quiet collars. It would be expressed in technology rejecting some modern forms of technology. So it would be expressed in the Amish to blue against photography of not taking photographs of him. Vigils and putting them up on the wall where they would be on display which would be seen as a form of arrogance and pride and a big party. So the glass in height is really expressed in many ways throughout the culture. Also in the organizational structure there is no

bureaucracy an army society no large central organization the central denominational offices no executive secretary or executive board of directors of this kind of thing but rather a de-centralized informal loosely coupled organizational structure so those are some of the many ways in which God often height gets translated into practical terms in the society. One might get the idea from that and I think you would be in correct idea that there is that one person one man or one woman is just like the next and I don't at least miss my my feeling from having read your book and that's really not true there is some room for individuality. Each person is not just like the next but it's perhaps it's expressed in a much more subtle way than one might in the modern world. Right. That you're very correct David in that observation.

The thing that's tricky is that from the outside you see people driving Kerry to submit horses you see. Standards of dress in the costume look very similar and that may lead to the impression that they are all identical and cut out from some large cultural cookie cutter. But in fact there's a great deal of variation by Personality Type Of course a great deal of variation in temperament and a great deal of room for individual freedom. In terms of an Amish woman what she plants in her garden or an Amish farmer when he plants in the field. A great deal of variation here freedom so individuality Yes but individualism No the kind of thing that would be frowned upon is when an individual elevates him or herself above the group or above other people one says Look at me I'm better than you are trying to call attention to himself Something else that an outside observer might think or might imagine

would be that to the Amish the their way of life might seem oppressive because there are there are a great many limitations. There are just certain things that one just does not do. Do you. Did you ever find that or or is that that again a misconception that an outsider might have. Oh that. Good but difficult question. I have talked to some Amish persons who I think do feel the limitations particularly in terms of education where they are forbidden to go on to high school in forbidden of course to go to college or higher education. And I've talked to some people who have felt you know boy I'd really like to go into high school or college and they have felt the oppressiveness of that limitation. On the other hand there's an enormous amount of freedom that's brought about by the discipline. And I point this out in the last chapter of the book where I

talk about a dialogue between modern society and Amish society. At first glance one might think that the Amish feel very limited by their clothing only certain styles and certain colors are acceptable. But that frees them from an enormous amount of shopping trips that frees them from trying to worry about keeping up to date with the latest fads it frees them from worrying about how they look and matching their colors all the time so in the midst of that discipline and in the midst of the limits there is also an enormous amount of freedom again with the education no they're not free to go on to college but big. Cause they haven't gone to college they tend to find their employment either on the farm or in small cottage industries. So that means they're free to be at home with their families they're free to walk across the driveway to have lunch with their families they're free from commuting on the expressway and cite those limits. There's a great deal of freedom and I would say a great deal of contentment and

satisfaction with their way of life. Our guest this morning in focus is Donald Kraybill He's a sociologist He teaches at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania we're talking with him about his book The riddle of Amish culture and if you have questions you're invited to call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. One of the things that that's remarkable I think. It seems it seems to me at any rate the remarkable about the Amish is the fact that they the attrition rate is so low. I think you mention in your book that chances are good that four of every five Amish children will remain Amish and one one wonders that with the kind of pole the outside world you can imagine the outside world having you know as we have seen for example so many people from rural areas polled to the bigger cities and you know people sort of lamenting that somehow their children aren't interested in preserving the values that they

have. How it is that the Amish have have not only. Maintained a steady state but they have grown and that they don't lose very many people to the modern world. What is it that somehow holds people in this society and keeps them there. Well I think there's several factors. The first one that I would point to would be their own educational system and the way that is set up is enormous. One room school that's operated by the Amish community there are usually 30 children in the school room. Grades 1 through 8 in an Amish teacher teaches them. That means that they are not exposed to the values of modern society. It also means they're not developing close friendships with the outside world. And it also means that their education is limited at eighth grade so they don't engage in critical thinking or scientific study and they don't want to professions that would require mobility So

essentially the educational system insulates them from both the values and social interactions with the surrounding society. And it also inadvertently limits them from certain occupations that would take them away from the community. Secondly the Amish community at least here in Pennsylvania in recent years has developed a lot of different cottage industries so that there's employment for each person to work off of the farm in a variety of occupations that are inside an Amish context that is the people that they're working with day in day out in a small cottage industry in crafts and so on. On small manufacturing shops are other army persons and that means they're inside an Amish world essentially and not directly interacting with the outside world. So those are two of the factors. I think a third factor is that the church does exert considerable control over the lifestyle. And so if someone is disobedient to that they would be excommunicated in eventually

socially avoided or socially ostracized or what we sometimes call shunning. So those are some of the factors. David that I think we come together to help keep the children in the community. And as you can deed you did point out roughly four out of five stay in the community and that means with about seven children on the average per family they have a rapidly growing population. And it's. Increasing very very rapidly the numbers of. I just noted some of them down and I and I thought it was just astounding how or how large the families can get and then how the family how big these families can get that and that. The extended families are so large it's not unusual for a couple to have 45 grandchildren. A typical child may have two dozen aunts and uncles and as many as 75 first cousins. That's correct it's astounding.

I don't and it's just dramatically different from modern life where we might have two or three first cousins and those first cousins that we have might be in for five you know in different states. Whereas the BOC of the 75 first cousins for the obvious child might live within 10 miles away. We have a couple of callers here we'd like to bring into our conversation and of course people who are listening are invited. We have a couple local lines open. The number is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We'll go first to our toll free line here number four. Yes hello. A while back I went with a group to a place that you know and I car there and. And we're very impressed by it. Did he have any fire machinery but the fire observer or the lead was yelled in the lighting insulin by with horses in. But it was beautiful all their land and their route. Farmland that

they work under those conditions are so noticeably great however. You mention the fact about the limited education in they they just scare them to a little they had there for us a few years. We can give it but not very much but they were perfectly content at weigh in but coming Have we a bus troop coming over there but we're all kind of sad because for thinking maybe that some of those kids that were so limited couldn't really went through to being a doctor you know. But hey that's not him. But that's a good point to raise and when I teach the Amish culture in my classrooms we often talk about that question in fact I deal with that in the book in the latest chapter. What about the human potential that is being

wasted here. What about the airplane pilots and the doctors and lawyers that perhaps are hidden in the Amish community. The dilemma is that once you allow a higher education and once you permit them to go on to college and pursue those occupations it really literally would destroy the community. And they the downside of American Individualism and the downside of that freedom is that we have many trips to the psychiatrist office and their bizarre office and in Amish society with greater deal control unless. Focus on individual achievement and a strong emphasis on being part of a group and cooperate with the group. You simply have less of those emotional mental problems that spin off from modern life. But that's an interesting observation and it certainly is true. I'm curious about having you talk about something a little bit different in butt springs off from the caller's question because she was talking about the fact that that is

the Amish farmers you do use horses they do use some kinds of machinery on their farm but but they are still do a lot of their pulling work with horses and of course they they don't they don't have cars they use their horse and buggy whip. If one was to have the opportunity to go into an Amish home there would you think that most people would be surprised at how quote unquote modern it was and the kinds of things that they they did have that you would find in probably anybody out. Yes I think that's true David particularly here in the Lancaster Pennsylvania settlement the newer Amish homes are quite modern. You find modern cabinets in homes all of them have modern bathroom facilities. They have an OEM. You know the kind that permanently waxed. For my going to countertops. Really everything is very modern with the exception of electricity you don't have a doorbell

you don't have a television you don't have a radio you don't have an electric toaster or a VCR or a microwave but everything else would feel quite modern. And many people have the misconception that they don't have bathrooms in the house and that simply is not true. The water is heated by Gayus So there's hot running water and there would be showers and bathroom facilities just like anyone else. Now the pattern inside the homes does vary a great deal from settlement to settlement and in some of the more rural areas of other states there may be situations where the homes would not be as up to date. So there is variation but these people are not cooking over an open fire and they're not milking generally not milking their cows by hand. OK. Let's talk with some of the folks here let's go to line number one. Yeah I wanted to say something about the Amish community we had an offering to go in that area and after Preston we've gone down a number of times and the first thing we found confusing and maybe you can speak about it since you

said you came from a Mennonite home is the fact that the Mennonites. Drove cars there is a conclusion other words about who the Mennonites are who the Old Order Amish are. That would be helpful for I know I had to figure it out and do some reading to find that out because there are different customs even though in some ways there are like they're out there are things that are alike. Secondly I just want to say too we visited there I remember once going to one of the school houses and found extraordinarily interesting we spoke to the teacher. There was no skulking around behind trees and peeking out and making an object of some kind of exotic native stick. And the children were again extraordinarily friendly and nice to people or that we met in town there was no you know they don't like to be stared at but I think they don't like to be photographed there's a sense of privacy which anybody would want. So I think that kind of thing is interesting but then I did reading and spoke to some of those people and found it very interesting that in recent times they had more alcoholism. They

said in this community there's vandalism they've had a lot of problems with the teenagers. And I was told something I hadn't ever known Now maybe you can maybe I'm wrong that the young people and I was. SERVICE TO THE BOYS HAVE TO truth to be Amish. At the age of 21 or whatever it was but before that they can even have cars now maybe someone is giving me information on make up. But maybe you can talk about the the problems that are arising in these communities now because I was really surprised at some of the major problems that they've had even though it isn't it isn't major not in the sense of our own society. Yes I'll be happy. Let me first of all comment on the cars. It is very confusing between the different Amish and Mennonite groups. There are actually several different Mennonite groups some are quite progressive and of course would use cars and modern technology and dress just like everyone else. Then there are some Old Order Mennonites. Groups that would several different ones that would have different practices as far as using tractors or cars.

The Old Order Amish would be the most conservative of the Amish. And then there are also some new Order Amish groups. Typically the Old Order Amish would prohibit the ownership of cars. Now they do in some settlements here in Pennsylvania for example they are permitted to use cars that is to have someone drive them around. They have persons that make their living by taxi in Amish to different places for business and sales and funerals and so on. But the rule of thumb is that they are not allowed to own the cars nor to drive them and basically they're trying to control individual isn't because a car really represents automatic mobility it's at an automobile as automatic mobility and if you want to control individuals and keep them at home. And prevent the individual as I'm the last thing you want to do is give somebody the keys to a car so I found them on bike. OK yes.

OK now let me speak to the young people. Basically the Amish community has emphasized adult baptism and and so typically here in Pennsylvania at least the girls will be baptised between 16 and 18 years of age. The boys 19 to 21 or 22 years of age and they must be baptized in the church before they can be married. So what often happens is young boys will be running around and often here at least it's referred to as quote unquote sowing your wild oats. Being a little wild and so on but they have to join the church and be baptized before they're allowed to be married and frequently they will be baptized in October and then will get married in November and become settled down and become part of the church. Now before they are baptized the church has really no control over them other words they can't be excommunicated they can't be disciplined because they really are not only a member of the church at

that point. And so the church really has no legal jurisdiction over them. So you do have some aberrations you have young people owning cars. You have them going to dances in movies. You do have some alcoholism among young people there. There are parties here. You know where they'll have some cakes a beer and so on and so that time of sowing the wild oats is typical. But the surprising thing is that most of them do settle down when they're 21 or 22 they do join the church they become baptized and yes they grow up to become very faithful and cooperative adults now. In the book I have several pages where I talk about the son the wild oats and I don't have time here but I do think there's a sociological principle behind it that explains it that sowing the Wild Oats gives the young people at least the impression that they have a choice. And one might argue they really don't have a choice because they've grown up in Amish schools they've been socialized through Amish institutions. And it's not a real choice but nevertheless it gives them

the impression of a choice and that later in adult life I think it's helpful to make them more compliant and submissive to the church. We're about midway through here I need to jump in I want to talk about the programs we have scheduled in the next couple of days and then we'll go on and we'll take another phone call. Our guest this morning is Donald Kraybill. He is a sociology help with a minor manufacturing or carpentry or whatever the cottage industry is. And they are going on to higher education so my sense is that they likely will be able to continue to have large families even if they aren't on the farm because they need a labor supply of manual labor for the small cottage and. Thank you. You haven't heard of any discrimination say in North Dakota. I've heard some by way of gossip and the grapevine I cannot comment on that in terms of any official I mean I'm not close to it firsthand but I have heard about it. That's a lot of effort. Thank you.

Okay thank you. Let me ask you Professor Graybill you when you talk about the fact that you know many people many Amish men and I guess a good number of single Amish women are employed not in agriculture but in other other kinds of occupations in cottage industry. Even some they even have some retail businesses. How would how do they decide what kind of job it would be appropriate to do in what would not obviously there's a and there are some lines that are drawn there. Correct. Things that are prohibited by the church in terms of their religious ordinances and religious doctrine would be also off limits or to boo it as far as occupations for example to have TVs are not acceptable nor are computers nor automobiles so if you had a TV repair shop or if you were retailing computers or if you were waxing cars or selling cars I mean those things would be off limits simply because

they would be forbidden by the religious doctrine in the community. On the other hand a chainsaw which is acceptable to you is. You could have a little hardware shop and sell chainsaw and that would be a problem. So basically things that are acceptable for use within a community would be acceptable to sell those in a retail fashion. But again things that would not be acceptable within the community run one wouldn't be able to sell those for for instance certain kinds of clothing. You know the one an Army person wouldn't sell bikini's in a in a dry goods. Or I would really go along the lines of where are the cultural lines have been drawn in terms of what's acceptable within the church and what's not. Let me just follow up on that because it gets into an interesting area and then I will get back to the phones because the lines are all filled and I have many people here who who want to ask questions but again is this business of drawing lines is is a very curious

one and one of the many riddles that you talk about in the book is the riddle of technology. And we have talked about the kinds some of the things that people have in their lives and some that they don't. And it's it is sometimes perplexing about how they make these decisions and there are many examples in your book and you've talked about some of them examples like Amish people are allowed to ride in a car but they won't drive they won't own one. They can use a public phone but they don't have phones in their house. They won't have electricity coming into their house by power lines but things that are powered by batteries are OK. They don't have computers but you could have a battery operated calculator you could operate a store and you could have a modern electric cash register but no electric light. And these kind of examples can go on and on and it's a it's the question one keeps coming back to is how do they make these decisions how do they decide what is acceptable and what is not. Well let me first of all say David that one of my central arguments of the book is that please.

Said speaker not fullish are stupid they perplex us and they seemed weird to us on the outside but in most cases these are negotiated compromises with modern world. That is what we have here are bargain compromises that a traditional group has struck with modern life with modernity and so often there are economic forces that bring these about. And so the Amish in the sense are sitting across the bargaining table and they've said we'll go so far but no further and the outcome of that that compromise looks like a perplexing riddle to us how the decisions are made is difficult to describe quickly. There's a group of bishops that meets twice a year and they kind of keep an eye on things and the decisions really would be made in those meetings of the bishops and then the decisions would be taken back to local congregations for a vote of ratification so the bishops are really the leaders with authority in the community and they would be the ones

that really draw the lines and decide when a new technological intervention or technological apparatus would be detrimental to the community or would hurt the community. It would be a disadvantage to it. It's fascinating. Well I better not keep my callers waiting here let's go back to the phones. Line three next. Well yes I was wondering one of them is doing they need medical attention particularly since they have so many children do the women go to the hospital have their child or do they stay at home or what. It's me. Yup. Let me pick up first on child bearing. And this Woodbury community by community and so I'm only speaking for the Lancaster Pennsylvania community of about 16000 now are here. It's an interesting story because in the 50s and 60s Amish women were going to hospitals to deliver their babies. In the last 15 years there's been a dramatic shift back to home delivery. And about 90 percent of the Amish babies now would be delivered at home through

the assistance of a certified and trained midwife. There are several midwives who are not. But from the outside community who have proper training and they would go around house to house home by home to deliver the babies a few babies are delivered in a doctor's office in a clinic beside a doctor's office and a few would go to the hospital. But very few would go to the hospital in terms of medical care they do use modern medicine. They do use modern vaccines. They do use doctor services they will go to the hospital. I would say generally they would be more like a rural peasant people in the sense that they would not run to the doctor every time they have a close pulled or their nose bleeds. Theyre just going to be more reticent and more reluctant to go to the doctor but they will go and use modern medicine they do go to hospitals. They would be reluctant to have a lot of expensive advanced modern

surgery for instance open heart surgery that kind of thing they would tend to let nature take its course rather than to intervene with a very expensive high tech intervention. All right let's go to another call the line number one. Hello. Hi. Hello. I'm struck by this sociologist a seeming lack of objectivity with respect to his own values. He seemed to suggest to me anyway that's the way here that modern civilization modern lifestyle is the norm. And for example he talks about how the Amish want to control individual ism by keeping them from carbs. Who the hell are you to promote individual ism as an ultimate value. But I'm not promoting it. I'm sorry if you what about what about you talk about wasted talents of people who don't get to be on an eighth grade education to tell you to talk about wasted talent. I think you may be I think you may be misunderstanding Professor Kraybill.

I'm not sure he's really. He took that kind of position. Maybe you'd like to talk about we can talk about it. Insufficient education Oh there's a lot more to education than just reading writing and arithmetic. You know there's your idea it seems to me like you want to have these people socialized to you. Where you are sir you are completely misunderstanding me. I'm really if you read the book you would find it I really margin against a lot of the values of modern life and I'm certainly not in any way arguing for modern individual ism. I'm trying to tell the Amish story and I'm trying to tell how they have coped with some of those values and I'm afraid you've completely misunderstanding me. Let's go on here to another caller and let's go to line number two. Hello. Hello. Yes I am Leon. Yes. Yeah I wanted to make a comment about the Mennonites and I want to.

The middle knights and I want I have been here basically about 150 years. They're located principally. Says well McLean Livingston and McLean counties. They originally were also Amish according to a book by Steve S. to Suzee minister at the Hopedale Mennonite church. That is not a lot of research on the Mennonites. They originally were Alsatians like those that came to Pennsylvania. But they came about 150 years later. This community of Mennonites in Illinois is very substantial. It's much larger than the small group of Amish slipped down and Arthur but I wanted to explain it to your listeners. Okay well we appreciate that Professor Kraybill did you you have anything you might want to add that. Not really I'm not familiar with the community up there so I really can't add anything I'm sorry. OK well I thank you for the call. Okay thank you. Let's go on to another caller line number

for our toll free line. Hello good morning. Yes I'm enjoying this how much I've always had a great admiration for the Amish people having some of my Aunt Hester's been Amish to Hostettler and Schrock in Pennsylvania. But one thing we have a settlement in northern Indiana and a few years ago they would not compromise when the state wanted them to put a yellow triangles on their buggies. I thought you know it right. No moving vehicle. They would not compromise and they sold their land and went down to Central America to police I believe and it was unfortunate and I really hated to see that community go from our state. But evidently the state wouldn't back down and the Amish people wouldn't you know they did not want that on their horse and by now we don't have on that stage. But one particular group went down there and I hated to see them go. I think it's important for the listeners to understand that there is a great deal of variation from settlement to settlement and state to state and there is no unified

centralized Amish structure to my visions like that. Right. To local community and each local church district really makes up its own mind. So apparently in this case they decided to migrate rather than to buckle under the to the pressure of putting that slow moving vehicle sign on. Yes you know like Sister community most of the churches have cooperated with that and most of the black buggies here do have a large orange reflective triangle will sign on the bug. But in some other states it's been a problem and it is decided state. By a little local settlement. One thing they have too is that their newspaper I'm forgetting the name of it now but I have to budget the budget yes it's such an interesting newspaper to read and to get a hold of some of their ads the way they live and the way they help each other out when there's a fire or a widow who you know asks for help and she gets it. And their lack of insurance and I just admire

their lifestyle. I think it's good that you wrote this book. Well thank you and I hope you don't take offense at the other caller because he certainly was off base but thank you. OK thank you for the call. We have just about six or seven minutes left and several callers will try to get in as many people as we can. We were talking this morning with Donald Kraybill he is a professor of sociology at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania and is the author of the book The riddle of Amish culture will continue to take calls here and we'll go back to the phones with Lie number three. Hello. Yeah I guess I along with one of the callers previous to disagree probably with the terms that you read of ours and actors. I guess I would have to say there and then. And fission. They take care of and well they don't run right away when something goes wrong. So therefore I guess I would have to agree with that term.

Also they're way ahead of us in their a lot way that they farm. And we've had several programs just last year on this same station where people in Iowa and even here at the University of Illinois are getting in with the new terminology they call it. Bio chemical farming. Well the Amish are way ahead of us but may know how to live and and be comfortable within nature. If it is important to realize there is some variation across Amish communities on that for example in the Pennsylvania community here the army do use chemical fertilizers they do use pesticides and they're using as many chemicals as the other farmers are using now that marriage may vary from settlement to settlement but there is not a Buddha in their religious doctrine against the use of chemicals. OK let's go into again another caller here line number one. Hello.

Hello Good day. Yes yes I forgot you have to forgive me if my knowledge is shallow All I know is what I saw from the movie Witness but I was kind of awestruck by their commitment at least how it was portrayed in the movie. Having a religious background myself I was kind of curious if you could enlighten me on some of the doctrinal basis for their beliefs. I'm not quite sure where to start I would say what you saw on witnesses is a fairly accurate portrayal of Amish values in terms of the Army side of it of course the violence and the nudity and so on they would It was very objectionable to them in terms of their religious values there would be an emphasis on the New Testament an emphasis on pacifism taking the words of Jesus literally loving one's enemy. There would be a strong emphasis on mutual aid cooperation and sharing within the community. They do not. They do not have communal property that is to say they do have private property. But there's a strong emphasis on sharing and sharing

it together. Their religious experience is more oriented in a collective way rather than a high degree of emphasis on personal salvation or personal devotions or personal things all of which have an individualistic tone and flavor to them. I see. OK. Thank you it was very interesting. All right I thank you for the call again we'll go on to someone else. Lie number two next. Hello hello hello. Yes I appreciate the fact that you know what you said earlier about the fact that there's been a freedom in limitations. I think that you find that by limiting yourself to a particular study it's a theology that you found freedom to do what you're doing. And there's only freedom by limiting yourself in certain ways. We in modern society three ourself. I mean limit our thoughts in certain ways that we can be free to do other things as well. I was wondering if you happen to

have any opinion on the effect of turning on their attrition rate. Thank you. Yeah I think that's a good question. I would say the effect of shunning is important and I think it does help to keep people in the community so the use of shunning I think does decrease the attrition. Right that is it helps to keep more people in the community so I think it is a elbows not used a lot it is an important device of social control which has helped to increase their growth and has helped to keep the community together. It has functioned in a in a positive way for the community. Another caller here line number for toll free line. Hello hello. Yes go ahead. I just got on the tail end of this conversation so I hope by what I see is going to be redundant. I'm from northeastern Indiana and I enjoy traveling around the country and I've seen around the Amish communities of Pennsylvania here in Indiana and Arthur and if there

isn't been one that I don't feel I wouldn't enjoy living near it the impact of the army or. Or just what what came first the chicken or egg DIS-EASE rehab and I was community everything else looks prosperous. Very strange. And another thing is though I understand there's a problem with the Amish communities in marrying the. Often there's a problem of people marrying. Relatives I understand the problem here in Indiana. Does the doctor have any comment about that. Let me speak to this with a comment on the prosperity of the communities. I'm not sure which comes first or the chicken or the egg I think the Amish have a sense of staking out good soil I mean they're very interested in the kind of soil where they can raise good crops and then they tend to be conscientious and frugal and practical and do generally speaking take good care of the soil and take care of their barns and houses and so on so I'm not sure which way it goes

there it's kind of hard to sort out. And I forgot to your second question I'm sorry. It was a question concerning Are are there problems any sorts of problems to come up with an area very close relative. I'm not sure that there is a tendency in some of the communities for second cousins to marry and third cousins and so on generally first cousins aren't married to each other. I don't know about your particular community out there in our third what the situation is but I am not aware of unique problems developing because of that. Obviously if there are recessive genes that have a certain genetic deformity or something that's being passed on that's going to be amplified if it's coming from both sides but I don't believe in terms of my genetic friends of what I know that there's any problems that are generated spontaneously simply because a second or third cousins are married. Well we'll have to leave it at that because we've come to the end of the time. I want to thank you very much for talking with us. We appreciate you giving us your time this morning.

Well thank you it's been it's been my pleasure. And for those who are interested in getting more into this topic you might take a look at a book that we have been talking about. Our guest is Donald Kraybill and he is a professor of sociology at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania and his book is the riddle of Amish culture and it's published by the Johns Hopkins University Press.