Focus 580; Dee Brown And Media Depictions Of Native Americans

In the first hour of the program today we'll be talking a bit about how media have shaped attitudes in this country toward Native Americans. And we have two guests with us here in the studio both visitors to the campus and they're both here to take part in a symposium that will take up this issue. Also something that is in part intended to honor the contributions of Dee Brown a man who for a couple of decades was a librarian and professor here at University of Illinois he's also known certainly outside of Champaign Urbana for a book that he wrote and published in 1970 a book titled Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. That influenced the way a lot of people and I think change that the way a lot of people think about Native Americans. Our guests are John Sanchez and Valerie Mathis. John Sanchez is professor of communications at Penn State University. Valerie Mathis is professor emeritus of history at City College of San Francisco. The symposium by the way will start at 7:00 o'clock tonight will take place in the champagne city council chambers. It's part of the university's year long commemoration of the Brown versus Board of Education session

marking the 50th anniversary of that. Decision by the Supreme Court in 1054 desegregating public schools and also a nod to Professor Lu Leibovich. He's professor of journalism here at U of I who was the organizer of this event and he will also be the moderator. And I'm sure that anybody's interested in attending the symposium tonight at 7 at Champaign city council chamber should consider himself or herself welcome so they can stop and also hear questions on this program I Welcome to 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 1 9 4 5 5. Well thank you both very much for being here. Thank you. I know press is censored that you're particularly interested in how the news media cover talk about Native Americans today. And I was really really struck by something that you wrote in a paper that you authored or coauthored wrote this American Indians have suffered more significant distortion and in accurate depictions of their

cultural identity than any other U.S. ethnic group with those distortions those distorted images appearing in all media including educational media such as academic publications and textbooks. That's a very strong statement. It's very true though and the one thing that I do is first I guess I should tell you that I know my research you know deals with the intersection of American Indians and media. I do use news media because news media is supposed to be truth. It's supposed to be real. You know we turn on the evening news tonight that's supposed to be really what's happening in Iraq and really what's going on in Afghanistan and so on. And if you turn on a movie a little bit later and it's Dances With Wolves Well that's all fiction you know that's entertainment that's not for real. So let's let's do away with that part and talk about what is real. And in my research has led me to to ask questions like why does or why do news reporters or why do

people who produce the news think like this. And so I've actually done surveys of different news groups around the country to find out where the where they get information about American Indians or. Or do they. You know how did they how did they come to believe the kinds of things that they believe about American is because it's not true it's distorted. It's very distorted. And so one of the one of the things that I looked into was were we're public schoolteachers 95 percent of all American Indian kids are educated by non-native teachers and teachers of the one thing that everyone who is listening today and everybody in this room has had everybody has a teacher. And what I have found is is just incredible. And I think the people that you're looking at looked at downlinked news media that comes directly into the classroom I mean stuff like channel one or the classroom channel and things you know that are

downlink from satellite directly into a classroom of 30 or 40 kids you know and multiply that times the number of schools in the country and you've got about six million kids you know that are watching downlink news media and I'm looking at some programming to find out what are they've seen about American Indians. What are what are these kids learning because they want to know the you know teachers first of all parents tell their children listen to your teachers. We do. We American Indian people we tell our children listen to your teachers. And so what did teachers you know what they're doing as in this case is in down down making news media the news media are down looking at television media. Is it you have producers from all over the country who are not really. Well I can see they're somewhat interested in there in that in what they're doing but they're mostly interested in in in trying to sell that product you know that's what they do. They sell they sell television to a company they produce it they sell it. They make a

lot of money then they move on to the next project. And what's happening now as it is is that a lot of the most negative kinds of things about American Indian people are coming are being downlinked into these classrooms around the country. You know if you just sit down and make a quick list you know it's as you know one of the what are three things I know about American Indians. You know I actually had this done I started with with 4th graders you know actually I'm sorry third graders who are third graders. I went in the classroom and I asked the teacher and I said I want you to ask this question. And she says OK because they were doing the American Indian chapter. It's always in November. And so they. They asked the children in that classroom to please would you please draw a picture of an American Indian and everyone in that classroom every single one of those kids drew a picture of a guy with holding a tomahawk on his head feathers on top of his head and bare chested wearing a lowing cloth moccasins a bow and

arrows. You know horses running alongside of them. Some of them had pictures of the heads that have been decapitated in there holding the head by the hair. And and I started that you know and you have to ask yourself you know these are children where where did they learn that. And it just continues all the way through college. It just does enter in eventually into it when you're out of college into that into the newsrooms and then into the living rooms of the people here in the United States. Well let me ask you a question there because I would I would think that the main source of those kind of the kinds of images that you're talking about where children would get those would be entertainment media would be movies would be television possibly also books that they would read. Does it do you see those kinds of things actually in the news. Well actually there are there are two the two sources that I find were where children are learning about these

were actually these three that they're learning about these things most are from their teachers and from television of course television media and from from their parents. And you have to ask yourself as a parent what do you really know about American Indians you know and it's mostly what you see and hear on television. And if you if you ask a teacher. I mean I would agree an education you know where did I learn about American Indians. I mean where did I learn about Americans I grew up. I mean I'm American Indian. I grew up and I grew up and in the community. And when I got in the classwork what was required one class one class in diversity is required including this University right here has one class that's required for graduation in diversity one. And and then you have to ask yourself what what is it one class that you take for diversity as a teacher as a as a public school teacher or as a as a producer for the news or communicator.

What is that course that you can take. And I did a survey in the Big 10 and you can take courses like people plants and places. I don't know what that's got to do with American Indians you know and I don't know what that's got to do with African-Americans or Asian Americans or Hispanic Americans. I just don't know. I look at the textbook and it it it had a lot to do with plants. But you can also take a course called history of jazz. You can also take a course called ballroom dancing and it meets the diversity requirement. So the fact is when it comes right down to it you know you know what you know about American Indians from what you've read in the newspaper what you've seen on television or mom and dad might have told you you know in the car as you're traveling over vacation. But I want to bring up Fessor Matheson to that conversation in your capacity as a historian. And I guess I missed it in any kind of reaction you would have. But Professor Sanchez but.

I guess I'm also interested in your perspective on how if you go back in time the media before we had what we had film before we had television for we had broadcasting pretty much you had newspapers and what you see what you see there and whether things were any different I would imagine this that this issue of distortion probably is not is nothing new. It isn't but I want to address one thing that that John said when I was in the third grade we lived in Ohio and we moved to New Mexico and all my little third graders were afraid I was going to be scalped by Indians in New Mexico now this is 1950. And I also have to agree about John for 34 years I taught two semester history the American Indians at City College and one of the first things I would ask my students is how do they picture American Indians and they always have them on horseback and I'd say but you have to keep in mind that the vast majority of them were farmers and some tribes never had horses at all.

I'm most familiar with the 19th century and I'm from aliar with the media really only in one aspect and that was a standing bare tour of 1879 and I got into that because I began to work on Helen Hunt Jackson and Helen Hunt Jackson attended one of his tours and standing Bear's tour was unique because you have this 55 year old very dignified punk Indian chief who's trying to tell the public the sad story of losing their land. But along with him is a 25 year old quite attractive Omaha Indian woman who spoke absolutely fluent English. So what you have on the stage is this demure Indian woman with her hair and and long sleeves and you know the high collar and the public was just really embraced them. And so. Standing Bear I guess becomes the good Indian because if you keep in mind about that time what's going on

the Red Cloud war was a little before that Custer's die. You've got Captain Jack and other Indians about ready to move on the stage got drawn a moment cetera so there was this incredible dichotomy and another important reason why standing there receive the press he did was because it was directed by a newspaper man by the name of Tibbles and tipples was from the home on an Omaha newspaper but also the newspaper men particularly Goddard who ran the Boston daily and fertile user was personally interested in it. So in the case of standing there was a very positive approach and the newspapers cover them in extensive detail. Maybe here I should introduce Again our guest for anybody who's tuned in in just the last little bit here Valerie Mathis is Professor Emeritus I guess it should be a view of history at City College of San Francisco and also with us is John Sanchez he's professor of communications at Penn

State by the way if you're interested in reading this. The story of Standing Bear. She has coauthored a book titled The Standing Bear controversy prelude to Indian reformist published by the University of Illinois press. Right. So that's that book is out and available and if you'd like to take a look at it questions are welcome and today we have somebody here who'd like to join in the conversation so I will do that. If you're here in Champaign-Urbana where we are 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 Those would be the numbers call here is in a nearby community Belgium line number four. Hello. Good morning. He walked into an area here where we're going away is right now involved in the controversy over there their symbol and now I don't really agree with what the symbol is exactly right now on the states of Illinois. It seems to me that the Native Americans of America. What you said

is a very good stage for their for their own benefit meaning that if they would go to the university and say look we don't mind you having this symbol but we only want American Indians to be the symbol. If there shouldn't be American Indian apply for it then there's no similarity here. But then have them portray it in the way that they want doesn't have to be in the garb that they use now they could use something else and utilize this as a platform to really promote the role being of the Native Americans. Would you like to comment on that. Well if you if you want I really do not want to turn this program into a conversation about the controversy of the chief. And if you don't want to comment on it all that would be perfectly fine with me. I would I would leave that up to the guest whether you would like to do that or not. OK. Thank you very. I'm not sure what to say about that. You know it's you know there's I can't I cannot think of a handful of American Indians that are happy with the symbol.

I can't. It's I don't think it's a positive thing for Indian country I don't think it's a positive thing for for me or my children or him or anybody. You don't have to be in to see that as a bad thing. And already you know since I've been in Anna Illinois you know I've been asked this and this is the third time now. I was just having a sandwich last night and some guy says are you are you an American Indian and I go yeah he says What do you think about the chief thing. So I try not to think about a teen I wish you guys would change that you know let's just get it over it's it's just get it over with you know. And let's get past that you know because there are just as many. Well he says that he was for it and he liked it as a very positive thing you know and it's an honor you know for American in years and I go I I'm American Indian I don't see any honor in it. And I said I can show you if you'll come to this symposium tomorrow night I've got research I'm actually going to present will show you how things like that actually hurt Indian people Indian identity. And he

couldn't understand and I said Just come and let me show you I've I work very hard just to prove this. And I'm not particularly I'm not picking on you. I'm not picking on. I don't want to pick a fight with the chief or you know the people I support the chief in the money that's behind it I don't care to. I'm coming from a very academic point of view and the poor and I'll show you from a very academic point of view as well as a very personal point of view that it's not a good thing for Indian people and I don't think it's a good thing for non Indian people. Well well we're talking here this morning about the media and its depictions of Native Americans we have two guests Valerie Mathis. She's a retired professor of history from City College of San Francisco. John Sanchez he's professor of communications at Penn State University and as I mentioned at the beginning they're here to take part in a symposium there are a number of people here that will be talking about this very issue. How media have shaped attitudes toward American Indians and this will be happening at the champagne city council chambers. It's night

7:00 and it's part of the university's year long commemoration of the Brown v. Board of Education station. 1954 when the Supreme Court handed down that decision desegregating public schools questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Something that really strikes me often and having maybe heard some other conversations on this subject of perceptions that people have and I guess I'm thinking of of not how what non-Indian people think about Indians. You start asking them questions about well you know what Indians what are Indians like and you get this this kind of image that Sanchez talked about people who live in teepees and wear buckskin and wear feathers and ride horses and and what's really striking is that apparently we have a lot of people who somehow have this idea that Indians we don't have any anymore. I mean they they don't have any concept of the fact that as part of contemporary America they're Indian

people who are who will go about their lives and live in houses and drive cars and are lawyers and doctors and that they don't wear feathers I mean sort of apart from the notion that Native American culture is very complex and there's a great deal of diversity and you know people from one coast to another we're very different. And I'm just interested in why it why it is that so many people and children particularly have this idea that that Indians are something that are part of the past not that are something that are part of the present. Do you have some idea. Well a good question actually. I've always approached the whole Indian history differently because I I'm an anthropology minor and I you know I've looked at it culturally but it's very true most of my students have this very narrow mind and this very narrow image of what an Indian is and hopefully by the time they were through with my two semester history class with lots of slides and things that you know I had been

able to change their mind. But I think there still is that perception there's that perception that they all had Tomahawks where you have certain groups that were peaceful farmers who fought only when they were attacked. And I think people seem to when they use the word Indian It's as if it's it it only encompasses one group. There were a multitude of languages a multitude of tribes there were tribes who languages were as different as night and day whose cultures were as different nine day and I think once once the public's aware of this diversity within Indian culture. Then they're not going to see the NTN as just someone on horseback with paint on his face and feathers in his hair. And so this is an obligation as John says of the teachers to try to teach the diversity within Indian culture. Not you know not that there's one type of Indian or way of life. And you're right they go to law school their teachers are educators there's a lot of Native American scholars and very

gradually it will produce you know will change perceptual changes can take a long time. I mean if my SED do you know if the kids in my 3rd grade in 1950 had that same reaction when I was going out to New Mexico it's old. This is a struggle we're going to have to fight for a long time to change our perception. Not too many years ago and she's right I mean but not too many years ago I was I had a power in Columbus Ohio and a pow wow I was not. I mean it's it's a big dance it's a big social thing. It's very it's a way that we keep our culture alive. And I'm a big guy I mean I'm a big guy I'm so they can't see me out there but you can I'm huge. And when I put on when I put on my eagle feather bustle and because there are times that we do put on beads and feathers and I dance. You know I I feel very complete very good about who I am. Very good it recharge my batteries. And so I on this day.

On this day a lady came by she said she was she was photographing or taking photographs and hoping to sell them a newspaper and I said she said Could I take your photograph and I said I wish she wouldn't I said these are eagle feathers and and they're sacred to us and I had to thank you for asking. And she took the picture anyway. And I said What are you doing you know and she took the picture anyway and then she said Can I have your name you know and I said I said no. And so I I walked away and the person that was standing next to her she says I know who that is and. And she said That's Professor Sanchez he's a professor over at Penn State University. And she says Oh I don't want to use it then I want to picture of a real Indian. And so. And so I heard that you know and I and I wanted to turn around and say something to her but I didn't know for a moment you know what I would say you know and I think that's a very good tactic that Rush Limbaugh uses. I didn't know. I didn't know what I would say. And and it bothered me. You know but it bothered me

because my nieces my nephews were dancing right next to me and they heard it and and they get it they get this idea but there is. But see there's a person who has one picture who will go into a newspaper that has a circulation of 500000 or if it's carried in the AP You know that it's just sent throughout the country and then people think. This is what an engine looks like. You know I'm sitting across from you wearing a blue sweater blue shirt and a tie. This is uniform over at the university. You know I've got a jacket that I wear it in my classes you know it does make me more Indian or any less. But still if I want to be pigeonholed and. And America is very good about pigeonholing who we are. That's where they put us. You know and one thing is she did say or that was being said earlier is that is that a lot of us are I mean my my brother is an attorney and and I'm a teacher and my sister's a nurse. And my other brother is a businessman

and and we've all I mean we grow up we all grew up dirt poor you know. I mean we were poor. So I started thinking about that too you know when I see when I when I did that I did a survey. Actually I did a study that study 20 20 years of television news stories on American Indians from 1980 to the year 2000 to find out where you know what what is really being said I mean why you know. Why are American Indians why are we have said about some of the things that we see in here. And remember this is supposed to be truth and out of one hundred eighty three thousand news reports in that 20 year period only one hundred and eighty were on American Indians. And some people say it was so there's only a hundred eighty three. And I mean God you know what are you what are you complaining about God that you guys are hardly there. But that's but that leads me led me to another thing. When I grew up I lived in a community and you know what the news traveled between us.

Did you hear about this did you know that so-and-so was in Korea. You know and so and so it was this and somebody died and somebody was born and things went that way. And it was good. And we knew about what was going on. But today I mean even in my in my home community there's only one other American Indian family there. That's it. You know so and my my boys and you can look at my boys and see they're not Irish you know. And my boys they're hungry for news from Indian country and they turn on the news station to watch nudes you know the news coming out of Minnesota or the news coming out of Apache or the news coming out of South Dakota where we all have relatives. And the images and the things that they see are are are very negative and then they have a hard time identifying themselves you know where do I fit in. I'm not really like that or am I you know that looks like grandpa's house but I don't remember seeing that house you know a soul broken down still torn up. So I did a survey. That's all I do. That's all I do. But

I did a survey to find out how many how many Indian people are really really really destitute. You know they're soul poor things are so bad. And the United States government help me out on this one. And the number I came out was 25 percent. It's like twenty four point nine percent of all American Indian people live at or below the United States poverty line. And that's a lot. Don't get me wrong. That's a lot. But what this report doesn't say then is that 75 percent of us are either middle class or upper middle class or whatever. We're just the average Joe. But we don't see what people don't see as that way because on television when they do get that one report this year on CBS is going to be about how bad things are. We have no hope or destitute or or they're showing beads and feathers. Indians. It's amazing. It just amazes me. And I don't think anything's going to change until we

change the people who teach producers and news reporters and teachers. You know we have to make a stronger requirement it has to be something more than ballroom dancing or history of jazz. You know there should be. Actually I actually proposed this once in in Minnesota and never in Massachusetts before you become a teacher. You should have four semesters or four quarters of mandated studies in race relations or diversity studies. And the and I and I said those courses are easy. To me they're easy African-American studies that Tina Latina studies Asian studies and American Indian Studies. You know those are the people they're going to be coming through your doors. You know those are the children that you're going to teach those are the minds that you're going to shape. And if we can do that you know then then the people who produce the news and the people who do entertainment and the people who talk on radio will be different at least to be more open minded about the things that they that they

think about with American Indians and that the response that came back is why are you picking on teachers. Why make them go another. Why me. You can go another year or two to school to do that. And I go what you know what I seems to me I remember taking electives in school. You know golf bowling. You know those easy art I mean not to pick on our teachers now and I want the phones ringing but I took art want to one because I heard it was an easy course. Let's stop those and let's get those especially if you're going to become a teacher and then we can pay teachers there I think they're worth their salt anyway. But then we can raise you know it's a good reason to give teachers more money to become teachers. We're little bit past the midpoint here we have a caller and I want to bring them into the conversation I want to also make sure anybody who's listening knows that they're welcome to you have questions comments and I do want to introduce Again our guest John Sanchez's associate professor of communications at Penn State University and he's particularly interested in news coverage of contemporary American Indian cultures.

Valerie Mathis is a retired professor of history at City College of San Francisco. And they're both here to take part in a symposium looking at how media have shaped attitudes toward American Indians I want to mention it again for people who are here in our area champagne Urbana if you like to attend here with these guests and others have to say this is taking place tonight at 7 o'clock in the champagne city council chambers on North Neal Street and champagne anybody's welcome to come in part for the symposium and tend to honor the memory of Dee Brown who for a long time was a librarian here if you will by and who was as well-known for his 1970 book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and one of the participants in the symposium in fact will be dee Brown's grandson Nicholas Proctor who teaches history at Simpson College in Iowa. We have a caller here who is ready to go and has been patient with us and let's go to them in Urbana. Why number one. Hello hello. Yes I'm not an Indian but I like them and I have

learned just a little bit about him over the years. I came to this community. In Champaign-Urbana they can see the 566 and Anna while going to school here at the depth that both the Brown wrote there in My Heart at Wounded Knee and it redirected me because all I had known before was a little bit to go out and you know that TV thing with the Lone Ranger and Tonto and and I started looking in at the Indians a little bit differently. And so but it was all on my own. That sort of discovery and then I didn't really move away too far from here in the years went by and did remember I remember a few years ago when the war was going on over in Bosnia and people were clucking their tongues about oh look at how those people.

Each other in the genocide involved and then and then a little group of the Indians pointed out in this area that they really hadn't done any treaty to divest themselves of the land and it kind of involved have been a little bit through you might reduce the watershed in the Miami Indians. They showed up here and there were the meetings and I went over there in Russian real Indian showed up they were dressed like us and one was an attorney and they were all spoken at a couple of the meetings and it went to shit thing county etc and as I was sitting in the back of the room listening to their their interesting talk about what was happening and what had happened. I think that's kind of there's been a big investment in the white community about discovering what actually is going on and I mean it around here especially it is Vermilion County we're in the clear

with some stuff. The people will go out and then step around on the ground with it after a rain event pick up a lot of artistic and arrowheads and things and you put him up in a little box and they show off and say look what we found in the ground here. You know wonder where they came from. And then when they have a chance to interact with some Indians a few years ago the rumbling in the back of the grow room that I was sitting in was well rooted where we're ready to defend our ground here where there's a bunch of World War Two veterans who are well acquainted with how to handle gun and will jump in the truck and go down to Oklahoma and wipe out these people who are trying to take care and I in the week you know it was D We carp at the people about Bosnia and stuff and then when it comes in our backyard we might have to talk to some people who might have a claim and ground here. We're ready to shoot him up again.

So it's not very deep this commitment we have here for diversity. Very good. And you know other people and stuff and just seemed pretty awful to me. Well you guys have any comment on that. You want to reflect on it all I think story sort of stands on its own. Well I think the caller very much we have some of the people here and the next person that's on a cell phone and I want to get right to them is in line number two. Hello. Yes I'm struck by the suggestions about the requirement for teacher education on diversity issues. And I'm all for it. I work with deaf people and I can see a lot of similarities in their community and what your guests are talking about with the Indian community. And they're sort of being hidden and not understood by the general culture. And so I'd like to suggest. But you add on your list of disability rights too.

I think as you know that's fine I think it's good. One thing I will tell this this caller that she just touched again on something that I had forgotten. Is that when we talk about things that happened here first because it seems like whenever somebody and the lady that just before talked about people defending their property. You know one of the things that that that that I've tried to teach my teach my boys is that while we're Indigenous you know that that change has happened you know we've lost the land you know but we're still here and we're never going away. But what else can you learn. You know what else can you learn about this land. And and the interesting question from my son who is about six years old at the time he says he goes Dad he says. What was what is the original language for. For North America for Indian Country and man I had to think about that. But as my grandfather who just recently passed on I just walked on just this last June and

he says well that's easy and he started speaking it and it was with his hands. You know a sign language is the indigenous language of this country. You know but not too many people know that the different a whole lot of different tribes spoke to each other you know using sign language. And now I mean especially now at least in you know I could see a little bit east of us anyway that sign language is coming back. You know my son knows it. And when he when we go to POWELL We pile all over the country and I will be I will be at one in Milwaukee. I think you know this weekend. And and he has kids they're friends of his you know and they start off by talking to sign language. And it's interesting how that how that how that moves over into you know people who can't hear you know and it be interesting to know frankly. Here's another study. It be interesting you know what what people who do not here think of American Indians since I didn't like some to come tonight. All right.

I don't know if you know that will be possible but I'm going to tell him about it I've been fascinated by this program and I'm very interested in the cultural comparisons you know. Thank you. I rank you very much. Thank you. The program I'm just about out of range I'm having a hard time hearing you now. OK well we're going to. We appreciate the comments we'll go on to somebody else here too. Line number three this is a caller in Champaign Illinois. I'm not trying to play one on the spot but would you care to comment on the cultural implications of a jury reconsider surgery department or whether it was in the records of the labor movement. That's what I want to get too angry. Well it's interesting how how things can how things can disappear you know. I think what you know if I can't remember the exact amount anymore you know it's billions of dollars that has been owed in young people you know for you know for different treaty violations and different you know for different reasons you know than just their guess is just lost is just gone. You know and

and and and it's interesting that time that it's right here at home. If that had been 90 I can't even explain it is so frustrating. But there's a couple things that I should tell you about that number one is that. Right now today I think there's five hundred and fifty one American Indian tribes American Indian nations because tribes is the old way to talk about us you know. But we're a nation and we recognize we're recognized by by the Constitution as nations. The Constitution says that you cannot make treaties with anyone else than sovereign nations. And those treaties you know were made between different Indian tribes if you will. And and the United States government and people you know people know very little you know about like the Black Hills acquisition. You know they should they know or they know that at one time it was Indian country you know that it was the

quote unquote an ACO type territory you know. It was things like that there was those people I mean who who had. What title to that land if you will was their land it was and that had been occupied and that I believe it was a few oh maybe 10 or 15 years ago now that that lawsuit went in from the United States government and the Supreme Court found that in fact that land does belong to the Sioux nations and offered I believe it was five hundred million dollars to pay. Now we're talking about Shannon County on Pine Ridge and some of the poorest land in Indian country period. But the local a ton the people they decided not to take that money because they said the Black Hills have never been for sale. Now apply that you know to some of the things that are going on and only very little about the Wabash area that this woman was talking about earlier the caller that called in earlier or about other areas

but it's happening all over the country. You know different areas of the country there were under treaty and you know for 99 years or a hundred and ninety nine years and now those treaties are coming up you know and Indian people now say look it's the treaty we don't want the money we want the land it belongs to us and this treaty proves that we've honored it for one hundred and ninety nine years and we're still here and we want the land back. What's up with somebody else we have a caller here in Piet county line number for one of our long distance callers. Hello good morning. Yeah I'm all right. I have missed most of the discussion but I just caught it and I wanted to remind the listeners. When I was when university and library has it that's not the play it's a permit. The slate of artifacts that John Wesley Powell brought back from his journeys out West and I of course I don't know how he did keep it you elaborate records and

apparently paid that the Native Americans for their pots and baskets and things. But about Leslie and it's an amazing job of trying to authenticate and display these with incredible respect I sense a really beautiful exhibit and I would encourage you know people to go see it I says. They've made real efforts. So I mean it's the diversity of the cultures that you were talking about the different Indian tribes and the different approach that they had to fast at 3:00 a.m. and some real research and I just want to make sure that people knew. OK. Well I thank you for the go. OK thanks so much. We're coming here in TO bought our last 12 or 13 minutes and I do want to again and introduce our guest John Sanchez he's professor of communications at Penn State and Valerie Mathis she's retired professor of history at City College of San Francisco and they're both here to take part in this symposium that I've mentioned a couple times looking at how media have shaped attitudes toward American Indians tonight 7:00 in the champagne city

council chambers part of the university's year long commemoration of the Brown v. Board of Education. You know I'm just I was thinking about the Sanchez year of the things that you said about how you would like to see as part of teacher education. Teachers be required to take some of these areas studies courses because not only will they have to be teaching students from a wide background but they'll be teaching people about those people and you said you know they really should take they should be proud to take African Studies and Asian studies and Latino studies and Native American Studies and someone called and said Well you know we also have this issue about disability and I think we'd all say yeah I'm going that's important too. I think about you know last year I had the opportunity to talk with Richard Rodriguez who is a Latino writer. And he's written a series of books that are in part about his experiences being Latino and in American has the title of his most recent is brown the last discovery of America. And in

this book he says he says sort of right up front he says America is brown and he means that both as a metaphor and literal talking about what's happening with diversity in this country. You know that with as we know that no we're get to the point now if we haven't crossed the line where European white European Americans are not going to be the majority people anymore. And we know that you know because of the way we're going we are going to have to learn how to deal with that kind of diversity. But it seems like we don't really know how to do that we don't have any idea how to do that and it doesn't seem to be getting easier it seems to be just getting harder as. As we become more brown. And I guess I you know what I have we have conversations like this or other kind of conversation. I found myself thinking how in hell are we going to do this. How in the United States are we going to meet this challenge. Because it's going to happen whether we you know

whether anybody likes it or not it's a fact on the ground. But we still we just don't seem to know how to do it. You have methods you have. Well I think we need to start with the children first of all because. When you know adult if you're prejudiced it's pretty hard to set your prejudices again aside that children are prejudiced and and I think we need to begin there. And maybe as John said and as the speaker said require some of these diversity classes now I know at City College we teach these classes. We have a graduation requirement that they must have a diversity class and they choose from these various things. And we also teach sign language at the college. But I do think I think we need to start with the children. And work with them as much as possible and hope that the adults can be drug again. I live in California which is a minority majority state. But I also grew up in New

Mexico and I speak a little Spanish so with my background. I'm enjoying it because I have a lot of friends or Spanish and I get to practice my Spanish and so I'm embracing this diversity but a lot of people aren't. I yeah I have to agree I think that to me it seems it seems it seems so easy. You know if I look in the curriculum at most schools I have a look at University of Illinois but I'm sure they have a class in American Indian Studies. I'm sure they have a class in African-American studies and Hispanic studies in Latino or Asian studies mandating them. That's the hard part. Nobody wants to force you to do it. And if you're not forced to do it I mean you probably won't happen. No I don't believe it will. I don't I know I know it won't because this is just in happened yesterday this has been this is been years and years and years and years. But it's ironic that you know that you know that. If I

mean would you go to a doctor they didn't have a degree you know would you would you or would you have a lawyer practice you know to represent you in court in court they didn't have a degree a law degree but yet we have teachers and I have I come from a family that has a lot of teachers in it. But. I've got to say teachers I think they are. They are the people who help shape this country most. You can say it's media. You can because it's a close second. But teachers teach the people who produce media. And I think teachers want to know. I really do. I think they want to know they're the ones that actually sign up for an additional class and in the in in ethnic studies or diversity studies or race relations. But it's not it's not mandated for everyone. And I think once it's mandated just like it is to have you have to have this many hours in law this many hours in physics and

chemistry to become a doctor or a lawyer once is just mandated. Then you know what we're going to persevere we will go ahead and do it. We will do it. I just didn't decide I was going to become a professor one day. I knew that if I went through this much education then at the end I could do this. And I think that. And frankly I think teachers you know I think. I think today maybe not yesterday but today they're hungry to learn these kinds of things. You know what's happening is that the first time they're dealing with diversity issues is when they're actually addressing that child in the class in the classroom. And you know they don't know a damn thing about Ramadan. They don't know a thing about you know they don't know a thing about about Sundance time and they don't understand why our children in the middle of the semester with us not Christmas and not Easter are running home for ceremony. And they don't understand and they don't understand why we're offended by some of the things that come in the classroom the paper. Right now they're doing they're going through the

the Indian chapters and back home where I'm from. And it used to be that they would come home with the children would come home with paper head dresses you know and things like that but that doesn't happen anymore. You know I can say that in in State College Pennsylvania that the school district there has worked very close with us and Indian people to have a more diverse curriculum. And I think the teachers you know what every every teacher I've talked about that has embraced it they have seen it as a bad thing. They're like How come I didn't get this before. We have a couple people here and I would like to get at least one more in the time that remains will go to Champaign land one right here. Hello. Hi. I appreciate what you say about India. Since being educated and having degrees and I was very privileged to witness the graduation this past summer at Oklahoma occurred in college and that was the first time that US and South Dakota have it to the that a

sitting governor had even attended a graduation on the reservation and he gave the keynote address. However I hope you don't downplay the real hardships that Indians on the reservation suffer and the continuing administrative traffic that are committed. Like the County just east of Shannon worm I think it's the MARTIN Bill anyway that it's been given over to White administration it's no longer under tribal administration because they said there they don't have enough Indians there even though it's part of the reservation. The fact that just recently in the past. Few years parts of the Badlands have been appropriated and that were taken over for I think Target practice and during the Cold

War and instead of giving them back to the US to a nation they were otherwise appropriated. And there are just things like that that it's really I spent a week each of the last two summers working at housing with the Quakers on the reservation and it's really opened my eyes to the things that continue to happen and the reason people think there aren't any Indians anymore and the kids in school drive the Indians the same way is because what's taught is it's taught as part of history. You know the colonial America unsettling of America and the Six Nations. You know the Iroquois Confederacy and so on and where little by the Plains Indians in the typical. And supposin So what they don't learn about modern Indians. Oh the teacher I went to South Dakota with has now brought back pictures of real Indians you know what it's really like on the reservation and the children in her

class that really want to be ethically embraced best and took up fund raising for housing improvements. We're we're just about I hate to jump in on the caller hope you forgive me but we're almost out of time. We're going to have to stop it. Is there any last thought that you would like to leave with folks. No I think I think you've had a good show. A lot of people calling in and I do know I know Tom Short bought their local and I worked out there myself in that area and I I don't try. My my grandfather is actually from Yankton South Dakota. And so I know you know having grown up using an outhouse and being poor and things like that I don't try to Indian country still needs help. But those pictures are not all of Indian country and I think that's all I'm trying to do. We are going to have to leave it at that with our thanks to our guest John Sanchez professor of communications at Penn State and Valerie Mathis she's retired professor of history at City College

of San Francisco two of the panelists they'll be taking part in a symposium looking at how media have shaped attitudes toward American Indians That's tonight at 7 o'clock in the champagne city council chambers. And anyone's interested should feel welcome. Thank you both very much. Thank you.