OutCasting; LGBTQ refugees and asylum seekers - part 3 of 3

and i imagine being an lgbt person and you've spent your entire life hating that you haven't told your parents hold dear friend told her church told anybody its deepest darkest secret that to happen and in order to get your asylum status or your refugee status now you have to prove it this guy that i've been working with a nigerian and he went to his court hearing and he came with another guy and his attorneys serve who is this other guy and the nigerian served his wife fran and the lawyer said what kind of fraud and he said just so from her i said is your boyfriend has a vivid than one answer the voyagers processes is this your boyfriend and finally the nigerian said well yes and then he asked the boyfriend is it where you from and the boyfriend said i'm from gaza and he said are you also seeking asylum

and he said yes i'm alyssa don't you realize that you can testify for each other and they had not even thought of that they're only programming the only way they knew how to think was tight never tell anybody tell the blueprint tile as here we have a legal system here in this country that was insisting on knowing stuff that they were not used to talking about this is our past and public radio's lgbt key youth program we don't have to be cleared to be here on the podcast is a production of media for the public policies that point independent producer based in new york online outcasts immediate dot org hi i'm sarah on this edition of out casting outcast lucas continues his conversation with beer snobs director of the unitarian universalist united nations office in new york city burns is a former us diplomat whose areas the expertise include foreign affairs

international lgbt q work and climate change lgbt q people from elsewhere in the world to face impassive and even brutal conditions in their home countries they're best option may be to get out of the country on this out casting series personally gives talk about lgbt q refugees asylum seekers the issues they face and difficulties they may encounter and trying to find a safe place to live this is the third part of a three part series the whole series is available on our website of passing me a dollar in the previous episode personally guys were talking about the difficulties lgbt q refugees face that they're non lgbt q counterparts don't we now pick up the conversation as they talk about what refugees do when they want to leave their home countries there's lots of great to see you again i think your adjectives to sue once they leave their country was the process like after that if you go to a mac at what you do

no and that's a common thought provoking or uses go to the american embassy and sarah palin to be a refugee mar maritimes it won't do anything for you at all you got to go to u m a c r to un high commissioner for refugees hopefully there's an office of the mac are in the country but your hand as underground railroad that i mentioned iran flows through turkey in their offices and the capital amman and cry and also in a stumble and so you wind up there and you apply and then you wait and it's usually three or four years waiting in turkey i mentioned the iraqi refugees they actually waited in syria for four years to get out of there finally on and see are will look at your degree of vulnerability after four years and then there are the thousands that don't get there is the support in there waiting for

that status from the lineage cr or just wherever they are and the fact that the united states has drastically lowered the number of refugees it we take courses is hard workers and we used to be the largest recipient country refugees in the world and we would drastically reduce the number of refugees we've taken in fact the infrastructure that we use to have in this country that would accommodate refugees and help them get acclimated to america is disappearing ink as we don't we're not taking any refugees anymore so those who were getting fired though the organizations or working with these populations or disbanding prison don't have a way to work without a more more and more people are in dire circumstances and was third changes the united states' position how's that changed your work helping these lgbt q refugee centers refugees in general i would say that i'm more refugees are diminishing asylum seekers don't really have a

korean asylum seekers typically somebody who has money it somebody who buys a plane ticket gets an american visa to come to the united states for study or for a conference or for tourism lawyer and then seeks asylum in this country so those are the people that i'm seeing more and more than refugees at the moment so the number of refugees is diminishing and people are forced to become asylum seekers find the money to pay for his plane tickets because us just is not accepting refugees were enough refugees and more in this case our rights carol i mean all the people that can't afford these airplane tickets for them stuck in whatever country they are faced with whatever persecution be around them oh and what are common challenges that lgbt q and as asylum seekers and refugees face after fleeing once they're resettled in a new country there is although the issues

that anybody house to face when they come to a country and we have this concept that everybody just loves america and they loved to be here and when i talk to asylum seekers they don't like or whether it's too cold they don't like our food it's too bland they don't like the people cause they're not polite iran and you know the whole list of things that are different hand not very pleasant icahn says after some point they have to learn to eat our food and sewed dresses for our climate and to deal with americans lower quirks and you know they have to go to congress to american culture most asylum seekers are a pair of your upper crust people are educated so they come prepared to do that they probably been to america before so it's not a completely new country for them and so they had that pretty quickly and usually do pretty well

then there's the whole issue of you know love and romance announcer will say and they've got a camera figure out how that all works here in the united states and wide shot challenges to lgbt q people face when they're coming over here as refugees or asylum seekers one of the things that i've noticed actually and trials before judges as imagine being an lgbt q i person and you've spent your entire life hating that you haven't told your parents you haven't told your friends here i'm told your church him told anybody had said deepest darkest secret that you have in order to get your asylum status or your refugee status now you have to prove it and they're just not ready for that might even example there's a guy that i've been working with these are nigerian and he went to his court hearing and he came with another guy his attorney said who was this other guy and the nigerian served

his wife fran and the lawyer said what kind of from any city just a franchise that is he yours boyfriend and the merger did not want to answer the question he hesitated he didn't want answered lawyer just presses is this your boyfriend and finally the nigerian so well yes and many as the boyfriend is that where you from and the boyfriend said i'm from guyana and he said are you also seeking asylum and he said yes i'm a lawyer said don't you realize that you can testify for each other you can support each other is claimed to be gay because you're in a committed relationship together and you can prove that you're gay by virtue of your relationship and they had not even thought of that they're only programming the only way they knew how to think i was tired never tell anybody that's how they've lived their entire lives and here we have a legal system here

in this country that was insisting on knowing stuff that they were not used to talking about carol well and how did this case eventually end up he's still in limbo the nigerian when he came he came on a fake nigerian passport with a fake us visa and i and when he landed at jfk airport the immigration officer said this is a fake passport and this is a fake us visa and the nigerian certain i know i'm fleeing from my life what is a as an allegation that he committed fraud by using a fake passport and a fake music his side that while it as soon as immigration officer asked me i told them the truth yes i use any means necessary to save my life so that case is still pending it's a difficult case so it's not just the matter asylum in his case it's whether he committed fraud or just crazy

how desperate are what means you have to go to especially as lgbt q refugee fleeing for your life that you have to go through to get to the united states his stepfather tried to kill her many many times and he went to his grandmother and his stepfather went to his grandmother's house and to put him in the trunk of a car and four was driving him back to laos nigeria and winning start to get gas this friend of mine jumped out of the trunk of the car and ran out into a field and actually found a clergyman to help them which is unusual usually clergy and are not helpful but the scores you're actually helped them actually gave the fake passport fake visa and he had money sent from his mother who were also left the stuff because it your stepfather was a jerk it seems like it is that the chronicle of a brigade guy but he was also beating up his wife and the two daughters that she had

which is usually the case i mean if people are being jerks towards lgbt people generally speaking the church towards everybody voters towards women for other minorities it's part of our personality and sister might say if you have a society is persecuting lgbt people you are we should be very sure that very soon they're going to be prosecuting other people and other minorities and that's all inhabitants and and it's all related that lgbt q people are dying and you know something's wrong yes so considering the new political climate in the united states and internationally do you feel like your role has changed at all it's become harder and insular during the obama administration we had absolute support of the united states government all or international we're not just at the united nations were us embassies around the world they were sympathetic and helpful to lgbt activist organizations in

uganda and just anywhere and that's pretty much gone now and of this administration you've got a rise in s know nationalism and also religious extremism i would call the international criminal court to be our own human rights commission in geneva the united nations and me are pretty much our agreement that human rights trump immigration the high commissioner for human rights at the children's rights trump border security hint hint yes so you know all of these walls or we're building all the is barry is a word we're making towards immigration and refugees and that sort of thing that's not what the international community has fought for four for seventy years seventy five years since the second world war we've been moving towards a more open society were for travel and immigration was freer and an easier and we seem to be going backwards the moment and it's not just this

country at several other countries as well and it's quite disturbing so how have you been adapting to that to continue helping this possibly increased flow of lgbt q refuge want your view of the country's leaders have that i've been working with countries and i think you're on the border to being sympathetic taiwan as a pink one such country senegal has another in west africa done as another line and for example being lgbt are having same sex relations is not a felony it's a misdemeanor usually happens is that people are you know they have to pay bribes somebody will come so if you don't pay me is so much money and to tell the university that you're gay or you're going to get expelled from school so it's not that people are being locked up or persecute or prosecuted by the government it's the you might lose your job you might lose your standing in school and

so it's that local and the president obama was asked news conference recently and they said do you think we'll ever have same sex marriage and ghana and he said yes not anytime soon though and the price went desert particularly religious person so how could you say we will ever have same sex marriage and just the fact that he said yes some time in the future we're going to have same sex marriage and now he was just posted in the press's bureau really went after the people of that caliber know that sooner or later they're going to have to come around and just don't want and he faces persecution in such a conga like liberal country for lgbt people which is crazy so for countries with not direct deadly persecution of lgbt q people what can people there do if it's a misdemeanor to be part of the gay community can you still apply for refugee status when you do yes i have actually helped us out

here of record to our ivory coast which has no laws at all against that being lgbt there are no laws against sexual orientation or gender the attic but the society is very unfriendly he's a fashion designer is married to an american guy and he could not live in court tomorrow the society would just make it impossible for him to live there i testified as an expert witness i lived and could do i was at the american embassy in court to war and as i told the judge i said there is no possibility for this couple to live and have anything like a decent life and go to war he has to leave us to get out of there has to be here in the united states or some other frontline country but they can't live as a couple and it's not because of the laws and i'd say most people even in places like chechnya russia iran they're mostly not beaten

up or arrested or persecuted by the government or by the police they're beaten up and persecuted by gangs of far eastern neighbors in church people and other people in their neighborhood to do it and then they can't go to the police or they go to the police and say i just got beaten up because i'm gay the police and then would beat you up and new thinking about other you would get no help from the police and you didn't know how from the justice system wow singing country like that we don't have the support your neighbors possibly not your family not your government for sure what are your options to get out if we have to somehow get a plane ticket to file for asylum it up to go to the second country where you can hopefully find an office yeah and people get on buses some people walk or do whatever they can to get out and may be the next country over isn't that much better than your country but even if it's a little better than your country it's worth it to take a

bus ticket trying to girard and get out of some place like chechnya or iran or russia or nigeria or cameroon it's really bad when i was still in the state department i heard about five gay men that have been arrested for being gay and tortured in jail and they were going to be brought before a judge so i call the us embassy and blow and i said you need to have an embassy us embassy officer at the trial to ensure that it's a fair trial because of your sort of diplomatic observer looking at the trial usually try to be on their best behavior and so the trial happen all five men were acquitted and let go and when he left the corps room they were re arrested and put back in prison and tortured again and one was tortured to death so even when you have a judicial system that does the right thing and the courts alone you're dealing with a society and in this case a police force

that is out to get their lgbt people public radio's lgbt q youth project produced in the us by media for the public good online an outcast immediate dot org on this edition outcast of the guest is talking with bruce katz the director of the unitarian universalist you an office in new york city about lgbt q refugees and asylum seekers who must leave their home countries to escape oppression and seek a safe place to live elsewhere so what methods do you guys use to i guess spread information about like places in chechnya or hurt where lgbt q people are being persecuted because a lot of times it seems like it doesn't seem to be enough information about it that's true on i went to the ninety second street y and this is on december nineteen so the day after to those made the day after the general assembly

resolution and christian owned or was there from salmon and i raced to the microphone hours of frustration ask a question and i said you know there was a resolution passed yesterday on lgbt issues at the general assembly mean i mentioned she said no i said why not and why siemon not reporting on the international situation of lgbt people around the world and she said i think we'll try to do something on that which they really haven't but now there's a there's a real dearth of information i belong to something called a solti was surf sochi being episode viii and i get information from around the world mostly from lgbt people well to be sources around the world so i'm pretty up to them and an armada what goes on anywhere in the world but regular news sources tv newspapers magazines there's not much information out there and you really have to go to specialized sources of and silently

lgbt publications here in the united states are pretty good on selling international issues a recurring war the tune their members of the same list serves and i actually have at least access to the information but again you have to go at our communities press and new sources i've gone back to some of these sources and so you can i call you the fragmentation forms a grade lgbt activist in uganda very early on i want to publicize the most often he had written on the stimulus horizon is that ok what was some of the stuff that he wrote it was about the persecutions i was fairly public knowledge rows of other prosecution was going on you know all sorts of these court cases and in uganda and in nigeria and in iran and in russia you can go to jail for just having the conversation that we're having here

we could be thrown in jail in any one of those countries for just talking on lgbt issues and in fact they've had meetings with two atari on lgbt issues and the whole lot of them thrown into jail just for talking about norway's to link any sex acts enough and you know we're going home and says talking in what they call an as a whole section propaganda just the talking doing or do i know would be turned homosexual propaganda and places like russia and with you in jail some currently creating the central propaganda so it is we're talking about has come so are you afraid to have you been to russia are like are you afraid of countries like this then i know one of your russian ally are afraid my husband wants to eurasia week and he's got friends or is he works in the fashion industry and as a fashion designer and there's a there's a very robust lgbt community in russia and we actually know so i'm getting married to an american tourist zone and listening to my husband

as i always do and he's saying oh she delivers chest the st petersburg berger the moscow on him says can check out the lgbt community there which we might go but i will be scared because it's like the stonewall here in new york and what would happen with the stonewall and back in the sixties was that people went there to have a good time and they figure night after night after night and nothing will happen and then one night the police and let's go brightest everybody at the stonewall inn and they go arrest everybody in that one night here and they are the people's in hell now we're not putting up with a summary of a rebel that was the beginning of the lgbt movement here in america a lot of countries in egypt around the world they're known gay hangouts or not the known lgbt hangouts and you hang out they drank they dance to have a good time and saying they'll view on everything is

finally doing night after night after night week after week month after month bo also in the plays cover restaurant put them in jail for ten years or twenty years and all and you just don't know and set not knowing that his is really awful that's really insane so what steps are you taking or are you lobbying for the un to take in the future to help develop a better position or better future for lgbt refugees and asylum seekers when the maine so that the un has is blame and sham and it does all over there is a global compact on lgbt issues and that is being signed by businesses and we're trying to get banks and industry isn't manufacturers to uphold decent policies of recognizing lgbt rights in the workplace and not investing in countries the persecuted lgbt

population and a lot of companies microsoft a lot of the companies or signing up for this and there is a lot of evidence that indicates that countries and to persecute their lgbt population take a serious hit economically they don't get the investment the friendlier countries and get a new gun that of course is famous for trying to pass this kill the gays bill and i had lost a lot of investment they killed his bill was actually deemed unconstitutional by the african court of justice isn't it wasn't done properly and uganda never tried to pass it again even though they could've they could've filed the right procedure and past the goalie is bill that they took such pressure from not only government but also from companies invest in uganda and when i kept her's and dudamel why why would anybody want to go to uganda we are killing the days until they didn't pass and actually the

ugandan courts have found in favor of lgbt organizations in uganda over and over and over again you know the police in society at large temblor be really reprehensible but i often surprise people by saying if he if you gave me the choice of dropping me down in uganda are dropping me down in nigeria or cameroon or iran i would choose uganda because uganda has many very well funded an organized lgbt activist organizations there is quite a bit of support for the lgbt community in uganda thats not available in nigeria or chechnya so even though it's not paradise where there's a lot of prison arts thanks for joining us for this conversation a bank of thirteen year and this has been the third part of a three part series you can listen to the

entire series on our website abkhazians dot org that's it for this edition of outcasts public radio's lgbt to you but we don't have to be cleared to be here this program has been produced by the outcast ed including these protests against to balance our moral and truly dante and wickets i'm sarah are executive producer is mark's us outcasts in this production of media for the public a listener supported independent producer based in new york more information about podcasting is available at our pasts media dot org to find information about the show and listening to all our past episodes in the podcast outcast is also on social media to connect with us on facebook twitter instagram and youtube are passing me if you're having trouble whether its at home or school or just with yourself

call the trevor project hotline at eight six six forty eight seven three eight six or visit them online at the trevor project ott was the trevor project is an organization dedicated to lgbt q youth suicide prevention problem if you have a problem seriously don't be scared even have an online chat news if you don't want to talk on the phone the defense isn't easy you can also find a link on our site outcast media dashboard and you're an outcast an lgbt few resources i'm sarah thanks for listening