Bill Moyers Journal; 502; The World of David Rockefeller

Bill Moyers' Journal

"The World of David Rockefeller"

February 7, 1980

BILL MOYERS:

I'm Bill Moyers. This past summer, Jimmy Carter asked David Rockefeller to become Secretary of the Treasury. Rockefeller declined the third time he has turned down an invitation to join a President's cabinet. When I heard about it, I wondered: 'What is it that David Rockefeller finds more interesting than the highest councils of government?' So I put the question to him at a meeting and he answered: 'My job.' His job has for 33 years been with the Chase Manhattan Bank. Approaching the age of 65 he last month relinquished the duties of chief executive officer but will remain as chairman of the bank until 1981. Show me why you find your job so interesting,' I said. The result is the film you're about to see.

We filmed it in October before David Rockefeller played a role in bringing the Shah of Iran to this country and before the hostages were seized in Tehran. When I pressed him this week to talk on camera about events that occurred after our trip ended, he declined. Until the hostages are released, said Rockefeller, he will add nothing to an earlier press statement acknowledging that he urged our government to allow the Shah entry because the deposed ruler was a friend and was ill. Critics point out that Iran under the Shah was a good customer of the Chase Bank and there have also been charges, in Iran and Europe, that the bank helped to channel funds to the Shah's personal accounts charges David Rockefeller vehemently denies. I am not much of a conspiracy-monger. The way the world of international money-lending works, especially where power, wealth and contacts converge, makes conspiracy redundant. But I'm getting ahead of my story.

There are many documentaries to be done on the Rockefellers, on international banks and multinational companies and on the power of the financial elite of the world. This is merely one approach. Producer David Grubin and I seek simply to render the experience, through one week, of how the world's best known capitalist goes about the job of being a banker... and a Rockefeller.

(Exterior, Westchester Airport - · Rockefeller's private jet being towed from hangar)

MOYERS: In a few minutes that Gulfstream II will be airborne, heading for Switzerland, Yugoslavia, France, Italy, and Germany (David Rockefeller, the youngest of the Rockefeller brothers, the chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank, and the unelected if indisputable chairman of the American Establishment, is going calling. Rockefeller is one of the most powerful, influential, and richest men in America and in the next week he'll be calling upon some of the world's leading economic and political figures.

Hello, David.

DAVID ROCKEFELLER: Glad to see you.

MOYERS: Glad to see you!

ROCKEFELLER: Here we are, all set.

MOYERS: Are you ready to take this journey?

ROCKEFELLER: All set to go, absolutely.

PILOT'S VOICE: The wind's getting the better of the deal here . . .

ROCKEFELLER: All right.

STEWARD: Good morning.

ROCKEFELLER: Good morning.

VOICE: It's too early in the morning to know ...

VOICE: Let's roll it!

MOYERS: We can push it.

2ND VOICE: Harry - we can pull it.

ROCKEFELLER (to driver): You've got it in "Park."

MOYERS (joining the pushers): This trip is beginning very ominously.

VOICE: Now we can't...

2ND VOICE: He's got the brake on...

3RD VOICE: Got the brake on.

4TH VOICE: I put it in neutral.

ROCKEFELLER: Here we go.

MOYERS: It's hardly an auspicious beginning for a trip to 8 cities in 7 days, but here we are ready to take off. The world of power operates behind closed doors, except when it's pushing a broken-down Oldsmobile. You'll never be sure what you can see on a trip like this or what you can learn. But I'll be along, listening, trying to interpret, hoping to understand something of the world of David Rockefeller - the world of money and power.

MOYERS (voice-over): Just about everyone knows the name 'Rockefeller'. It's part of the language, a name synonymous with great wealth. And the way in which David Rockefeller's grandfather accumulated his vast fortune is a legend of the capitalist system. But there are other wealthy men in the world- wealthier even than Rockefeller. He represents something measured beyond money. He represents power.

Rockefeller's own personal fortune is enormous, but his base is the Chase Manhattan Bank: assets over $65 billion. Rockefeller owns more of its stock than anyone else. And the bank in turn controls large blocks of stock in dozens of companies here and abroad. Yet the source of this power is something more. Rockefeller sits at the hub of a vast network of financiers, industrialists, and politicians whose reach encircles the globe. He'll see many of those-people this-week. We're heading for visits with Chase clients and branches in Europe, and for the World Bank and International Money Fund meetings in Yugoslavia. Traveling with us are senior Chase officers and Rockefeller's own chief of staff, Joseph Reed.

MOYERS (to Rockefeller): How many miles do you think you all have logged on this plane?

ROCKEFELLER: I would think well over a million that I have personally.

MOYERS: In this plane?

ROCKEFELLER: Yes. Well, I've been around the world five times in it and, virtually all the way around, and have been on extensive trips where I didn't go around but went farther than this.

MOYERS: Don't you sometimes think, well, I'm David Rockefeller and I could get the world to come to me instead of going out to see the world.

ROCKEFELLER: I think it's a good deal more fun to go and see the world.

ROCKEFELLER (on the telephone): Isn't that great! Well, I certainly am relieved to hear it. Well, we missed you very much... Well, you, you would have added to it, and I wish you could be with us. We had a marvelous dinner with King Hussein... And he asked about you... and was very sorry you couldn't be there. We, we told him what had happened. But he was in good form. Now here's another friend that wants to talk to you. Just a minute.

ROCKEFELLER (to Moyers): Archie Roosevelt. You know him?

MOYERS: Roosevelt? He was a cousin of FDR, wasn't he?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, he, he was a grandson of Ted, of Theodore...

MOYERS: A grandson of Teddy.

ROCKEFELLER: Yeah, grandson.

MOYERS: You said you had dinner this week with King Hussein

.

ROCKEFELLER: Well, King Hussein I've known for a long time. And he came out to Pocantico and had dinner with us on Monday, and it was a very nice occasion. We had a number of people like Henry Kissinger and Bill I think Scranton, and others whom he had known for a long time, and I was particularly glad we did it inasmuch as, mistakenly, the President didn't see him.

MOYERS: Why do you think he didn't?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, I think, apparently, he was afraid that this would upset President Sadat and the negotiations. My own feeling is, he has to be a part of them, and not talking to him isn't the way to resolve the problem.

VOICE ON RADIO: (Inaudible)... 30 miles.

MOYERS: What do you hope David Rockefeller can accomplish for you this week on this trip?

JOHN HALEY (Chase vice-president): At this meeting there will be hundreds, if not several thousands, of people that all want to have key interviews with the key players. The decision-makers in the international monetary arena. And David gets to see these people, and not everyone will. That's what we get out of this. And also we ourselves can then build our own little niche: I'm going to be here in three weeks, can I come to see you? And when we get there, we do get to piggyback, we piggyback on this introductory knack of David.

(Shannon Airport: various shots leading to the duty-free shop)

VOICE ON LOUDSPEAKER: Aer Lingus Flight 105, Shannon to New York, now boarding.

ROCKEFELLER: This salmon is...

MOYERS: It's $27.

ROCKEFELLER: It's about, about a third what you pay in New York, this smoked salmon.

MOYERS: Well, this would be just $27 for the... for one.

ROCKEFELLER: For that piece.

MOYERS: Yeah. And that would be...

ROCKEFELLER: Well, that could well be 75.

MOYERS: You know, I know that inflation has arrived when a Rockefeller shops for a bargain on salmon. (Laughs)

ROCKEFELLER: (Laughing) It's also very good.

MOYERS: Yeah, right.

ROCKEFELLER: You get the combination...

MOYERS: of the low cost and the ...

ROCKEFELLER: the low cost and the (inaudible). . .

MOYERS: What else is good here?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, the other things are wools. They're a little short on some blue socks.

MOYERS: They seem warm, too, which we may need as the weather changes.

ROCKEFELLER: Yeah, right. Right for the present moment.

MOYERS (trying on an Irish hat): I still think that, that armed with one of these, either one of us could take on Moynihan in 1980.

ROCKEFELLER (Laughing): Yes, that's right. Oh, that's better than the other, yes...

MOYERS: Yeah, I like that.

ROCKEFELLER: No, you look well in that. I think I'm going to go and get these. (To salesgirl) I come to you? Need four pairs of socks. Hello, how are you?

SALESGIRL: I'll ring it up for you now, sir.

ROCKEFELLER: Good.

SALESGIRL: These socks are very warm, now, so (inaudible)..

ROCKEFELLER: That's good, that's what I need in Belgrade. It may be cold there.

SALESGIRL: They're very warm in winter.

VOICE ON LOUDSPEAKER: Final call, Aer Lingus Flight 105, now boarding.

ROCKEFELLER: So... how much will that be, please?

SALESGIRL: It's thirteen dollars and fifty cents, sir, please.

ROCKEFELLER: All right.

MOYERS: You save a few dollars over what you would have had to pay in New York.

ROCKEFELLER: There we are.

SALESGIRL: Thank you very much.

ROCKEFELLER: We might as well get aboard, I guess.

MOYERS: Mind telling me what these are?

ROCKEFELLER (Holding large black looseleaf book): Well, these books represent the end result of 35 years of having met a lot of people, and keeping a record for the people that I've met. I suppose I must have 40 or 50,000 names in this file. And then when I go on a trip I get my office to put together a book with all the people that I've met in a particular country this happens to be Germany . .

MOYERS: Before you get to a country, you'll leaf through it to remind yourself...?

ROCKEFELLER: Often do. It really does make a lot of difference. If, somebody that you've met 10, 15 years ago casually, you have a way of saying, 'well, I remember the last time we met was at such-and-such a place', they are pleased, and it's helpful to me in having a better understanding of who they are and what their background was.

MOYERS: Every year, U.S. News & World Report surveys 1500 American leaders and asks them to name the most powerful men in America, and every year, you're in the top ten of the most powerful people in the United States. Are you conscious of exercising power?

ROCKEFELLER: Not really. The only way that it seems to me I'm aware of the fact that I am more fortunate than many is that because people have this perception, I think probably when I pick up the telephone and call somebody, they are a little bit more apt to answer than they might be if they'd never heard my name.

MOYERS: The first leg of the trip is almost over. We're about to land in Strasbourg, France. It's taken us 8 hours so far, with two stops, in Newfoundland and Ireland. And David Rockefeller has worked most of that time. He took a lunch break, then it was back to the briefcase. It's a pace his Baptist grandfather and John Calvin would have admired.

(Strasbourg, France-Flag, shots of village)

MOYERS (voice-over): Strasbourg, France, our second day. Rockefeller likes his pleasures, too. This is the only rest stop in the week. He will tour a museum, look at some paintings, visit a medieval town, and dine in a three-star restaurant. Early on the first morning, I talked with Rockefeller's old friend, Ridgeway Knight, who now works for the Chase Bank.

MOYERS (to Knight): What do you do now for David Rockefeller in the Chase?

RIDGEWAY KNIGHT: Well, I have two jobs, really: I represent David personally, and I'm adviser to senior management on political trends and major economic trends, and I've chosen to keep that part of the world that I know a little about, which means fundamentally Europe and the Levant states . . .

MOYERS (voice-over): Ridgeway Knight planned the day's schedule in France. He's a retired ambassador and a former assistant secretary of state.

MOYERS (to Knight): Would it be fair to classify you as David Rockefeller's minister without portfolio?

KNIGHT: Well, I would be terribly flattered. If that were true, I would be very happy. (Laughs)

MOYERS: Well, you say you are his personal representative. What are some of the things you do? You take diplomatic trips for him?

KNIGHT: Well, for example, I went out to Indo-China and to Vietnam, I went and saw Sadat for him and... when he can't do it himself. I draw less attention than he does. (Laughs)

MOYERS: It's amazing to me that in his world the bank operates as, like a country does.

KNIGHT: Well, what impresses me most is that I've représented a number of presidents, and I've spoken for a number of secretaries of state, but I've never seen doors open more easily than when I say I'm coming for David Rockefeller - it's fantastic!

KNIGHT (to Rockefeller): David, may I introduce Mr. Eberlin?

MOYERS: His name is . . .

FRENCH AIDE: Mr. Eberlin.

MOYERS: And he is... ?

FRENCH AIDE: He's the brother of Jean-Paul Eberlin, who is a chef himself. He is the mayor of this little community, where is his finest restaurant. He is the owner and one of the best in France. It's a three stars restaurant and probably the best, among the best.

(Touring Strasbourg: various shots, sound of church bells)

ROCKEFELLER (to his guide): Tres jolie. (Continues in French)

ROCKEFELLER (Viewing painting of Christ): Well, this was done by (inaudible) and as you can see, a very great realist, you see, the Body of Christ is horribly tortured.

MOYERS: How old is it?

ROCKEFELLER: Beginning of the sixteenth century.

MOYERS: How long does it take you to organize a trip like this?

JOSEPH REED: Well, we started that day that it was announced by the Joint Secretariat of the Bank and Fund to have a planning meeting that very day.'

MOYERS: How long ago was that?

REED: A... exactly a year ago.

MOYERS: When David Rockefeller walks in public, are you worried?

REED: Yes, always. Always. That there could be the assassin, that there could be the attempted kidnapping, and we've taken a very common sense approach to that for more than a decade, which is if anybody really wants to kill him, anybody really wants to attempt the grabbing of him, they're probably going to be successful no matter how much security that we have unless he's in an armored car and carried like a head of state from one place to another under a cordon of human beings, and which, that's not what he wants to do, and so he opted, having consultations with Mrs. Rockefeller more than a decade ago, to lead a life that had a common sense approach to protection, and therefore allows us to be able to discreetly have people who you don't even see here in this square.

ROCKEFELLER: (French)

VOICE: (French)

ROCKEFELLER: (French) Okay. But you know, even if each one is different, so much the better.

FRENCHMAN: This is a (inaudible). You want the bottom one as well?

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, if we could get a dozen of each.

MOYERS: What are you buying?

ROCKEFELLER: Bill, don't you think those are pretty? They're reproductions of old Strasbourg plates. Don't you think they're pretty?

MOYERS: Yes, I do.

ROCKEFELLER: I really think they're just lovely.

MOYERS: This is about $30.

ROCKEFELLER: It's quite a lot, on the other hand, you know, I mean, these days you get, to get a good plate, you just, a much less pretty one than that is.

CHILD: (French)

ROCKEFELLER: (French)

EBERLIN: (French)

FRANK STANKARD (Chase vice-president): They don't understand the value of the dollar. It's so low. Lunch in the restaurant was $36.

MOYERS: In that little place?

STANKARD: In that little place. Thirty-six, now I'm sure it's a very fine restaurant, but nevertheless, $36. I mean, that's a lot of money for lunch.

MOYERS: You're a banker. Explain to me what happened to the dollar.

STANKARD: I really can't explain. I think that the purchasing parity part of the dollar, I don't understand, because in New York you can literally buy twice what you can buy here for the same dollar. And that's of course why this, the business of the Fifth Avenue stores with the tourists is so terrific in the United States. It's cheap! Inexpensive.

MOYERS: walked out to me and said, 'You know, it's just incredible what's happened to the dollar.' He said a meal in there is $36. He said, 'I just don't understand'. And I said, "if you don't understand what's happened to the dollar, then I'm really scared because you're a banker'.

ROCKEFELLER: Obviously, the principal reason is inflation. I just hope that despite the fact it's an election year, the President will continue to take the strong fiscal and monetary measures that I think are essential in order to control it. Up to now, I believe he has. I think it remains to be seen whether that will continue.

MOYERS: Last night at the hotel I took out a couple of dollars for tips and I could see the disappointment on the face of the, the bellman, because the dollar — when I was here 20 years ago, that was... that was very... that's what they wanted.

ROCKEFELLER: Yes.

MOYERS: But last night he didn't want dollars; he wanted francs.

(Exterior, Restaurant Auberge de L'Ill Line of Mercedes-Benz' parked beside a lawn where waiters pass glasses in native costume of wine, and a brass band -

plays. Rockefeller entourage greets chefs of the restaurant. French is spoken.)

RIDGEWAY KNIGHT (Holding a glass of wine): This is an extraordinary curiosity, because usually the Muscat grape gives a rather luscious, sweet, vulgar wine, and this, grown in the Alsatian climate, gives this light, fragrant, distinguished, aristocratic wine.

MOYERS: Aristocratic.

KNIGHT: Don't you think so?

MOYERS: As far as I can tell.

JOSEPH REED: Marvelous.

KNIGHT: Well, yesterday, when I passed by here, our friend said, 'My next distinguished customer is going to be the Queen of Denmark'.

MOYERS: Here?

KNIGHT: Yes. And I said, 'Well, you know, Mr. Rockefeller isn't crowned yet,' and he said, 'Yes, but his crown is much more solid than the others.' (Laughs)

dinner for Rockefeller entourage — fine crystal, linen and silver, American flag

KNIGHT: And he told me about this recipe which was a grandmother's recipe of his, and they resurrected the recipe when the Queen of England came.

ROCKEFELLER: That's the most delicate thing I ever tasted.

MOYERS: David and I were talking on the bus, Ridgeway, about the impact of inflation on our society. You wonder what inflation is going to do?

JOHN HALEY: That's a terrible question to ask if you look at this beautiful meal.

ROCKEFELLER: It makes me feel that we should enjoy this meal doubly, because we may not have it again.

(Outside the restaurant Restaurant staff bids farewell)

ROCKEFELLER: Well, that was an experience, wouldn't you say?

(As they leave from the bus)

VOICE: There he goes.

2ND VOICE: Isn't that something?

(Exterior, airstrip - Rockefeller boards plane)

(Interior, plane)

MOYERS: I was just noticing in this copy of, September's issue of Euromoney that you've helped make a loan to the independent state of Papua new Guinea, you're, been involved in a loan for the Metropolitan Waterworks Authority of the Kingdom of Thailand, and that gets us into the subject of debt in the world. What would happen if these poor countries failed to pay back their loans?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, obviously, if this happened in a general sense it would be very serious for the world banking community. I don't personally think that's likely. We saw that happen with the, the bond moratorium after World War I. I think the circumstances are quite different this time.

MOYERS: But does a headline like this in today's New York Times scare you? 'Nicaraguan Aide Says Junta Will Repudiate Debts Of Somoza Era'. Is there a chance that we'll be seeing a lot of headlines like that?

ROCKEFELLER: Obviously, it's not a headline that bankers like to read, and if it were a general problem, it would be serious. My guess is that even in the case of Nicaragua, they're going to find that they need the international banking community and that if they ever want to use it again, they're not just going to be able to cancel all their prior debt and start from scratch as though nothing had happened. So I wonder whether, in the long run, that will be their final reaction.

MOYERS: Do you still consider yourself a good friend of the Shah?

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, I do. I had great respect for him. Good friend, no, because I really didn't know him that well. I saw him probably 12 times over a period of 20 years. We probably had 6 or 8 fairly lengthy one-on-one discussions of world events, which I found intensely interesting. I think that he was one of the best informed people about world events that I've almost ever met.

MOYERS: How do you account for the fact that someone who could be that well informed about what's going on in the world, as you said, could be so out of touch with what was happening in his own country?

ROCKEFELLER: I guess in retrospect he lost touch with his people and I suppose one of the dangers of, of power, as has so often been said, is that the more of it that you have, the more tendency you have to want to hear what you want to hear rather than be, have people around you who are telling you what they really think. And I think increasingly the people who advised him hesitated to tell him the truth.

MOYERS: Someone said to me just the other day, well, did it ever occur to David Rockefeller when he was seeing the Shah to say, 'Look, you know you're being accused of running a police state; you're being accused of using torture; you're bringing down public opinion on your head; you really need to change policy'. Didn't that ever occur to you?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, I did —, I never did it. I really didn't feel it was my place. I talked to him as a banker, as an acquaintance who felt warmly toward him. I doubt very much whether this kind of statement coming from me would have been helpful. I think it probably would have meant that the next time I wanted to see him, he wouldn't have been available, and I really don't think that that was my proper role. Furthermore, while he was accused of all of these things, I had no personal evidence that they were correct.

MOYERS: None of your intelligence, politically or commercially, said as such.

ROCKEFELLER: One read it in the press. Obviously, it was a police state. One certainly had to assume that there were things going on that I wouldn't have been happy with, but then in all honesty, there are things going on in most countries of the world including our own that I'm not very happy with, and if one only associates with people that one feels are absolutely pure, absolutely moral in every sense, I'm awfully afraid one wouldn't have as many friends as one would like.

(Belgrade, Yugoslavia: Hotel Yugoslavia)

MOYERS: Belgrade, Yugoslavia. The end of our first full day in Europe. Crowds gather outside the Hotel Yugoslavia as the world's financial leaders arrive in Mercedes and evening dress for the World Bank's official reception. You are reminded of a Hollywood movie opening, but the power these people represent is the real thing. (Reception, Hotel Yugoslavia)

ROCKEFELLER: You see, what happens, if you move with authority . . .

JOSEPH REED: Remember the time in Saudi Arabia when we went through the barrier and I flipped over the Chase car?

ROCKEFELLER: That was marvelous - well, my goodness, (inaudible) ... how are you?

(Rockefeller meets and greets a succession of international notables as he progresses to the reception hall.)

WOMAN: Pardon me, Mr. Rockefeller. May I escort you to the Chairman? He was waiting to meet you . . .

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, wonderful, you.

WOMAN: He was specifically asked to meet you, and if you don't mind...

ROCKEFELLER: Wonderful. I appreciate it. All right, thank you very much. How are you? How are you? (Rockefeller continues to greet guests)

MOYERS: The most important people in the world of international finance are gathered here in this room and everybody is here for the same ministers of finance, secretaries of treasuries, governors of central banks purpose: money. They've come from almost all the countries of the world to make the contacts that make the deals, to seek loans, make loans, and, when all the social festivities are over, to have some very serious discussions about some very important problems.

VOICE: You kicked us out in 1932 in Chicago...

2ND VOICE: You're telling me. What a mistake that was.

VOICE: That's right.

2ND VOICE: Christ, that was before I was born.

3rd VOICE: (Inaudible) You got to live with it.

ROCKEFELLER: We just, we just arrived, and...

MOYERS (voice-over): David Rockefeller's first evening in Yugoslavia set the style and pace for the rest of our trip. He checked in at the Saba Center, where the International Monetary Fund and World Bank meetings were being held, met with the governor of the central bank of Japan, and then visited with some high United States government officials. Secretary of the Treasury William Miller:

MILLER: It's misrepresentation to tell the American people that inflation could be cured in 6 months or 1 year. It's a 5, 6, 7, 8 year program.

MOYERS (voice-over): And chairman of the Federal Reserve, Paul Volcker. Volcker is a former Chase officer.

PAUL VOLCKER: a quarter of the pie, but that just means there's less for somebody else because the total pie has declined.

MOYERS (voice-over): Rockefeller finished the evening near midnight with a dinner for the most important bankers from Italy.

This is the way a Rockefeller does business at luncheons, dinners and receptions - gracefully, convivially, and above all privately. The day that began with breakfast in Strasbourg, France, and included lunch in a three-star restaurant, was finally drawing to a close.

(Morning, Belgrade)

MOYERS (voice-over): Belgrade is the site of this year's World Bank and International Monetary Fund meetings. Yugoslavia is a non-aligned country but it's still part of the communist world. This is the first time these meetings will be held in a communist state. Six thousand of the people who make the international monetary system work have come for the opening sessions. Most of the important business was done in the halls and lobbies where bankers and government officials talked about the slowdown in economic growth, worldwide inflation, turbulence in the exchange market, and political instability. The rich world has the money; the poor world is looking for it, on terms it can afford. There's always a debate at these gatherings over the growing gap between the haves and have-nots. Inevitably, it focuses on the bankers.

(Interior, conference hall)

PRESIDENT TITO: (In Yugoslav)

MOYERS (voice-over): President Tito addresses the opening session.

WOMAN TRANSLATOR: ... and the world's economy is facing serious difficulties. The economic growth is slowing down.

(Shots of delegates from all over the world)

MOYERS (voice-over): The U.S. delegates are worried about the dollar. Its value is falling and they're trying to convince everyone here that Washington will take stern measures to check its decline. The Arabs, too, are worried about the dollar. They hold 70 billion of them and as the dollar continues to slide, many Arabs are switching to gold. The developing countries are worried. They can barely make ends meet. They owe nearly $180 billion to the World Bank, the IMF, and commercial banks, and they claim that many of the conditions imposed by the lenders make them poorer still. The head of the World Bank is worried about all these matters, and especially about the economies of the extremely poor countries.

MOYERS: You were in for the President's speech.

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, I certainly was. Delighted to hear it.

MOYERS (voice-over): Yugoslavia is looking to refinance $1 billion in debt. The Chase was the first bank to extend credit to the Bank of Yugoslavia after Tito's break with Stalin, and now Tito will be looking to Rockefeller once again.

MOYERS: David Rockefeller is the only private citizen seeing President Tito this morning, and we're waiting here to see if we can get in to see David Rockefeller seeing President Tito.

(Meeting of Tito and Rockefeller)

ROCKEFELLER: I don't know if you recall, Mr. President, but you were kind enough to receive me and my wife ...

TITO: Do you smoke? No?

ROCKEFELLER: no, thank you, no, I don't, thank you, in Brioni in 1973. Now, I'm glad to see you still looking in excellent health.

FEMALE TRANSLATOR: (Yugoslav)

TITO: (Yugoslav)

TRANSLATOR: Well, six years have passed.

ROCKEFELLER: That's right. The world needs you and I think you have demonstrated that even more at these recent meetings in Havana where you played a very important role.

MOYERS (voice-over): The media event was over. The real business began and the press was excluded. While Tito and Rockefeller talked finance, we spoke with Murray Seeger of the Los Angeles Times.

MURRAY SEEGER: The name Rockefeller, of course, has an international cachet about it. It's a magic name around the world. My own particular experience with him was in Moscow. I was working in Moscow as a correspondent when Chase Manhattan opened the first American office. Mr. Rockefeller came in and they rented space for the bank and in their typical fashion they arranged a mammoth cocktail party. They took over the dining room of the Metropol Hotel, which is an old landmark in Moscow, and put on the greatest spread anyone ever saw in their lives. Soviet officials lined up half an hour early for the cocktail party. No one in America could believe anything like this, but here these people were standing out in the street in Moscow half an hour early, waiting to come in, shake hands with Mr. Rockefeller, and enjoy his spread and welcome him to Moscow. What was ironic, for those of us who lived there, was that within the week before the official Soviet press had been denouncing the Rockefellers by name for their investments in Chile and Peru, and in Latin America in general. Referred to David Rockefeller's brother, Nelson, especially, as being one of those of the Rockefellers who were financial imperialists in the Third World, Latin America specifically. This kind of contradiction doesn't bother the Soviets. They probably hadn't even read the article, or if they read it they didn't pay any attention, and may not have associated this charming capitalist banker standing there in the Metropol Hotel.

(Rockefeller's hotel suite)

MOYERS: Yugoslavia, where we are today, is a communist country, although non-aligned. How do you deal one day with a communist government and the next day with a capitalist country? What's the difference in your approach?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, I have to say that having been in this business now for 33 years, I find one has to be very pragmatic and flexible about these things, and that relations with governments regardless of the political label that's attached to them depends to a large extent on people and human relationships, and just because a country is technically called communist doesn't mean that a capitalist institution such as the Chase Bank can't deal with them on a mutually beneficial basis, and indeed we do deal with most of the so-called communist countries of the world on a basis that has worked out very well, I think, for both of us.

MOYERS: You don't hesitate to call yourself a capitalist.

ROCKEFELLER: Not at all, and certainly they don't hesitate to call me one, but that doesn't seem to interfere with their being quite willing to have dealings with me, even though I'm sure that they feel just as strongly about what I stand for as I do about what they do.

MOYERS: Do you ever have any qualms about dealing with an authoritarian, even repressive, government?

ROCKEFELLER: I assume that you're thinking... of moral qualms as to whether it's right for me to be dealing with people with a very different approach to life.

MOYERS: Yes, if it makes you morally uncomfortable.

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, I certainly am sometimes uncomfortable, and very uncomfortable, at the things that I see, but I think that when one becomes an international banker one really has to cross the bridge as to whether you feel that it's the role of the international banker to try to persuade other nations and people to handle their affairs in a manner that is politically or economically more to our liking. And I guess that we come to the conclusion that even if we thought it would be desirable to do that, our chances of doing so are not very good. I personally don't see anything immoral or improper with our dealing with people with very diverse views, even if they conduct their affairs in a way that we might even find quite repugnant.

(Chase cocktail party)

MOYERS (voice-over): Chase's big night. The Chairman is entertaining. Clients from all over the world are here, and David Rockefeller has a word for each of them.

ROCKEFELLER: Nice to see you.

MOYERS: Is Mr. Rockefeller an important name in Africa?

AFRICAN DELEGATE: Yes... well-known.

2ND AFRICAN: Yes. Well-known.

ROCKEFELLER: How do you do? Nice to see you . . . yes, nice to see you.

JAPANESE DELEGATE: We all know (inaudible) about Rockefeller.

MOYERS: The name Rockefeller is a familiar name in Japan?

JAPANESE DELEGATE: I think so, yes.

MOYERS: Minter, what do you talk to him about when you're being very candid in private session?

KUWAIT MINISTER: We have a lot of things, you see. We have to talk about reflection of politics on our own mutual affairs.

MOYERS: Does it, does it disturb you that he is also considered a friend by the Israelis?

KUWAIT MINISTER: No.... No. That means I am a complete fool.

MOYERS: Excuse me?

KUWAIT MINISTER: If it's so I would be a complete fool. That means I demand that everyone who is supposed to be a friend of mine should be an enemy of others. No. It might be good that he is a friend with me and he is a friend with them. It might bring a sort of equilibrium between.

ROCKEFELLER (to Japanese delegates): I hope we'll get a chance for a little chat. There are a lot of things to talk about, so see you people. Thank you.

MOYERS (to Chase official): You've attended a lot of these?

JOHN DIZARD, economic journalist: Yes.

MOYERS: What's going on?

DIZARD! Well, this is where the real business of the meetings gets going. There's very little or really nothing of substance that'll be decided at the actual meetings of the IMF. This is where people who are voices on the telephone to each other the rest of the year meet and get a real sense of themselves as a group, I think. They get a feeling of what their political position is and they reaffirm, well, a feeling that they're a part of the real global elite, which is after all what they are.

MOYERS: How would you define an elite?

DIZARD (to a passing waiter): No, thanks.

MOYERS: No, thank you.

DIZARD (to Moyers): I'd say that these people, or rather the financial system as a whole, and these people run it, place the limits, in effect, on what any sovereign nation can do. There's only so far, outside of the policies that are fiscally sound, in other words, that your banks will buy, there's only so far you can go, and these are the people who set the limits. And this is where they get a sense, where they get a sense of what their position really should be, what their politics are and how they feel about each other.

MOYERS: How do they arrive at that?

DIZARD: Well, also they're doing business. These guys are selling loans, and that's really what David is doing, like any banker. And the representatives of the countries here buy them, and that's what it is. It's like a market. It's like those bazaars in downtown Belgrade, except that the food's better here.

ROCKEFELLER: Hello, there Habib, nice to see you . . . (to Habib's wife) nice to see you . . .

JOHN HALEY: What really happens here is that at these big meetings, and this is where you've been doing a lot of your filming, everybody comes and it's here where they say, 'Hey, how about meeting me down on the corner and we'll talk for about 15 minutes', because you're not going to do transactional business with a cast of thousands. So everyone comes to these receptions, everyone's got a little game plan who do they want to see? Who do they want to get into the corner? Then they get into the corner. There's been business done here. I've done business. You haven't seen too much of me since we got off the airplane.

BRITISH JOURNALIST: Mr. Rockefeller, do you think the Americans are trying to talk the dollar up this week to a level where it shouldn't be?

ROCKEFELLER: No, I don't think so. I think that ever since the first of November of last year, that the American government made it very clear that it believed in the dollar and was willing to support it, and was willing to take measures to support it. These measures were very successful. But I don't think for a minute that the American government is artificially trying to push the dollar up.

JOURNALIST: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

ROCKEFELLER: Sure... sure. Goodbye.

(Rockefeller, with various guests, in several languages)

MOYERS (voice-over): The party's over, and some party it was over a thousand guests lined up to take David Rockefeller's hand. On the plane the other day I asked David Rockefeller, 'What is power?' And he didn't give me a very good answer. He said he really didn't know. Well, the answer was here tonight. Those handshakes say it all. They're the gestures that shape the nation's destiny, where its people will live, what they will eat, what buildings get built, what dams completed, what jobs created, who gets rich, and who doesn't. In a world where money talks, this is the language in which it speaks.

ROCKEFELLER: Good evening. Very nice to see you.

MOYERS (voice-over): And this is power.

ROCKEFELLER: Come right ahead...

(Belgrade, day — Streetcars)

MOYERS: David Rockefeller has begun his day with breakfast with the minister of finance of Saudi Arabia, one of the most important men in that country and one of the most important men in the world because of his control of billions of dollars of investments.

MOYERS: He's next door, having breakfast this morning with the minister of finance of Saudi Arabia.

LEAH FERNANDEZ: Um-hmmm.

MOYERS: How did you go about deciding what to serve for breakfast?

FERNANDEZ: Well, especially because... we take in consideration if they have any restriction, could be religious restriction, like if he's a Moslem, you won't bring him pork, things like that. Or we try to find out if he has any dietary preference, so instead of bacon and eggs, they are having eggs only, just in case, and a regular breakfast. They didn't want anything too elaborate because it's... they're going to talk about very important matters, you know, they were not concentrating on the food really.

MOYERS: Leah Fernandez is a Chase vice-president from New York. She's in charge of the elegant social functions which are David Rockefeller's way of doing business.

MOYERS (to Fernandez): How many people will you be responsible for this week? How many guests will David have for lunch, dinner, breakfast . . . ?

FERNANDEZ: I'd say altogether, including the reception last night, it's a little over 2,000, I would say.

MOYERS: Amazing, 2,000 people in four days.

FERNANDEZ: Well, yes, that's an accomplishment.

MOYERS: One of the questions that interests me is how David does go through a long day such as yesterday with a breakfast, a lunch, a reception, and then a dinner after that reception.

FERNANDEZ: Yes, he is incredible. He is... special... I don't know, he has a special personality or special health or what, but he is unbelievable. You know, he can be out of a plane and into a party, go to meetings, and he can go like that for days and days and weeks and months. Practically his whole life is like that.

JOSEPH REED (introducing): Mr. Moyers.

MOYERS: Good to see you again. What did you talk about with Mr. Rockefeller?

SAUDI MINISTER: Well...

MOYERS: How long have you known him?

SAUDI MINISTER: Think 14, 15 years.

MOYERS: So David Rockefeller is more than just a banker- he's a long-time friend of your country.

SAUDI MINISTER: Oh, yes.

MOYERS: Some people think that banks today are larger and more important than countries because they operate across geographical and political boundaries, and that they've become the new force in the world.

SAUDI MINISTER: Yes, yes, yes, but many of them have sort of invisible minister of foreign affairs.

MOYERS: Invisible minister of foreign affairs?

MINISTER: Yes, yes, in banks, yes, you can, you cannot establish, in Chase case, Mr. Rockefeller, he is the Chairman and he is the, he has to do thing together.

(Hotel lobby, the next morning: Rockefeller enters, checks that his bags will be ready for departure, makes his way to the dining room, exchanging greetings.)

MOYERS (voice-over): Another morning and another breakfast - this time, the Israelis. Yesterday morning it was the Saudis. The Israelis have a lot to talk about with David Rockefeller. Inflation is running at a rate of 100% in their country and it could get worse next year.

VOICE: Are we paying you a good enough price these days or are we still holding back?

MOYERS: We're not allowed to film in there. It's a private session talking about business and, I assume, politics. Of course, we've learned this week that in the world of David Rockefeller it's hard to tell where business ends and politics begins.

ISRAELI REPRESENTATIVE: No, it's always interesting to hear it, and to hear your view, and I mention it, I mentioned I think thousands of times the discussion that we . . . (inaudible)...

ROCKEFELLER: Oh, I remember that meeting, . . . I know...

ISRAELI REPRESENTATIVE: ... I believe... you convinced me at that time and I started to argue in Israel for that, but it is a little bit more complicated...

ROCKEFELLER: It is complicated.

MOYERS: Did you talk any about their inflation which is running at 100% a year?

ROCKEFELLER: It's awfully high. You see, the terrible problem for them is they have to import all of their oil, and now, with Iran out as a source, they're having to buy some, a third from Mexico, a third from Egypt, and the other third on the spot market.

MOYERS: On to Rome?

ROCKEFELLER: On to Rome. I better go get my bags together.

(View from the plane)

ROCKEFELLER: Look out there, you can see the Adriatic Sea and all of the beautiful islands along the Dalmatian coast.

MOYERS: Have you ever sailed down there?

ROCKEFELLER: When I was studying at the London School of Economics, my Easter vacation in 1938 I took a little Italian boat and for $25 for five days, I and four friends took this, we had the entire public quarters of the boat, and we went down the Dalmatian coast, stopping in at all the ports. I thought that was a pretty good deal.

MOYERS: Coming over four days ago I showed you the headline in The New York Times, which seemed to be sounding an alarm as to whether or not Nicaragua could repay its loans. Have you learned anything at Belgrade in talking to all of your associates and others that has changed your opinion about that?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, it turns out that that statement was made by one member of the new government's ruling group, that in point of fact our bank has been having continuing conversations with the government, that they have indicated full intention of paying their indebtedness, certainly to the commercial banking system. They have problems; it may be necessary to stretch out some of their debt. But they recognize, as I said I thought they would have to when we discussed it before, they have recognized that they are going to have to pay the debt if they ever expect to get more credit in the future. So on the one hand, our own relations have been stronger than I realized when I talked to you before, but more than that, we had a most interesting lunch with the Mexican delegation to the World Bank and Monetary Fund, and they've been having a lot of conversations with the new government in Nicaragua, which is very anxious to get the help and advice of the Mexican authorities, who are extremely good in this field, and they're sending people down to help them solve these problems.

MOYERS: And the Mexicans briefed you on this.

ROCKEFELLER: They briefed us on it and as a result I feel a great deal more confident about Nicaragua than the morning when you showed me that particular rather alarming article.

MOYERS: That's another paradox of the world, that this new left-leaning regime in Nicaragua has ties with the epitome of the capitalist system.

ROCKEFELLER: Well, that's not the first time.

LORD REDESDALE (Chase vice-president): The schedule for today is as follows: we'll get in and check in at the hotel probably, or, depending on time, go straight on to the IRI lunch. Now IRI is the Italian holding company and it is an enormous organization. It owns banks, it owns Alfa Romeo, it owns...

MOYERS: Alfa Romeo, the automobile company.

REDESDALE: That's right, it owns Alitalia, the airline. It owns, you know, an enormous, it also owns, I may say, the Italian television companies.

ROCKEFELLER: Economic management of Italy since the end of World War II is one of the very impressive things...

FRANK STANKARD: Yes, you know, they, the facade of changing governments is always in the newspaper sort of color things, but as you know, if you know the place, underneath it's managed very well. They, and many of the problems they have are because they have taken an agricultural country, what, 35 years ago, and turned it into one of the industrial powers of the world, and that has caused the usual social tensions that go on.

ROCKEFELLER: And in 30 years there have only been three, up to now, governors of the Bank of Italy, whereas there have been prime ministers, sometimes more, more than one a year.

MOYERS: But just five years ago, when I was in Italy the last time, all the stories were of the verge of bankruptcy.

ROCKEFELLER: That's true. They'd gone through a very difficult period at that time and they had allowed, temporarily, inflation to get quite out of control, and I remember very well, we had lunch in Rome with Governor Carli, who was then Governor of the Bank of Italy and perhaps the most respected central banker in Europe at that time. And he said, "This is really going to be a very difficult thing for us to do; we cannot turn the economy around without outside help. We've got to get temporary loans. And he said, 'you have helped us often in the past and we really need you now.' And so, during the course of the next few months, we and other banks loaned, how much, Frank?, a billion dollars, at least...

STANKARD: Easily.

ROCKEFELLER:

to Italy to help them with their balance of payments deficit. And a lot of people felt this was a very foolish thing to do. But we had so much confidence in Governor Carli and his ability to handle things that we were not worried about it.

STANKARD: Very importantly, not forget that it's people, it's a people business. You have to know the people whom you're dealing with and be correct about them.

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, I think that in the case of Italy, for example, if someone other than Governor Carli had been in charge of the Bank of Italy, someone that was less trusted around the world and within the country, we would have hesitated very much in doing what we did.

(Exterior, Rome Airport)

JOSEPH REED (to Rockefeller as he disembarks): Welcome to Rome. Trouble is, there's no, there's no reception committee.

(An Italian rushes to greet Rockefeller; they exchange warm greetings, then exit towards the terminal.)

(Outside Rome Airport)

MOYERS: Jerry, how long have you worked for David Rockefeller?

JERRY VAN DORN: Almost 24 years now. I started in 1955.

MOYERS: And your responsibility is . . . ?

VAN DORN: Security for the entire corporation throughout the world.

MOYERS: What were you doing before you joined Chase?

VAN DORN: I was an FBI agent for almost 20 years.

MOYERS: Is there a lot of enmity expressed against the Chase Bank? VAN DORN: Absolutely.

MOYERS: Why?

VAN DORN: Well, I think for several reasons. First of all, we're perceived to be, by many people, as the Establishment. We certainly are perceived to be a David Rockefeller bank. Not only that, but there's the implication that we are the oil bank as well, by reason of the history of the family. It extends over to, when Nelson was alive is an example, very often there's a, some of these fellas on the outside, get the principals mixed up. They're angry at Nelson, so we have to get a letter directed to David, or some information we hear that is directed at David. So in many ways we are a target bank, and David is a target individual. He's a high visibility person.

MOYERS (voice-over): High visibility it is. And if embodying the establishment makes David Rockefeller and his bank targets for critics, even of threats against his person, it is also what makes him attractive to the tribal chieftains of finance and politics all over the world.

(Various shots of Rome ·Shots of Rockefeller at meetings)

MOYERS (voice-over): We saw it in Rome. In a mere few hours, David Rockefeller meets privately with the President of Italy, is briefed by the American Ambassador, and, between off-the-record sessions with former prime minister Andreotti and the most powerful figures in Italian finance, he calls on clients at the Vatican, a mighty financial power in its own right. He's invited and welcome; cameras are not.

(Outside the Vatican)

ITALIAN GUARD: I told you, it is forbidden here without a permission. In St. Peter's Square)

MOYERS: It's as good a time and certainly as good a place as any to reflect on some thoughts that have been growing in the four days of this journey — we're now halfway through the trip. And the thought is that, that men like David Rockefeller move beyond religious, political, cultural, national boundaries with great ease. And here in St. Peter's Square, the heart of the Roman Catholic faith, there's something very symbolic to me about that. The Church has always transcended national, political and cultural lines and so, in its own way, does the universal church of Money. It goes where it will and the laws of no single nation can regulate it. It even has its own Curia. You've seen some of them this week. They've been drinking together, eating together, toasting one another, talking with one another about the mysteries of their faith, and if they don't have a single pope, although some people think David Rockefeller is, he certainly is one of its chief cardinals.

MOYERS: Well, what's on the mind of Italian bankers?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, Mr. Sente, in addition to owning the three largest banks in Italy, owns 12% of the gross national product of Italy .

MOYERS: That's enough.

ROCKEFELLER: ... and we were just hearing their, their gross figures of sales are 24,000 billion lira, 24,000 billion lira a year. That's a lot.

MOYERS (to Rockefeller): You should be borrowing money from him.

(Laughter)

MR. SENTE: It's very remarkable quantity, but is very remarkable also number of problems.

(Various shots of Rockefeller traveling)

MOYERS (voice-over): Breakfast in Rome, lunch in Milan, dinner in Geneva with Swiss bankers, many of them charter members of the Rockefeller network.

MOYERS (voice-over): David Rockefeller may be ever the gracious guest or host but his chief of staff runs a tight ship. It's a large staff that absorbs the minor irritations of travel, knows that one slight slip and it's back to the teller's window.

MOYERS (voice-over): On to Frankfurt and Bonn. Now, the pace that was merely demanding is grueling. But it is also instructive. Private citizen David Rockefeller is accorded privileges of a head of state.

(Motorcade moves on to highway; sirens)

MOYERS (voice-over): He is untouched by customs or passport officers and hardly pauses for traffic lights. Rockefeller is the supreme example how multinational companies do business.

(Aerial shots of mountains)

MOYERS (voice-over): The boundaries that separate one nation from another are no more real to them than the Equator.

(Interior, airport)

ROGER ROBINSON (Chase official): We have briefing booklets for everyone, which will give you itinerary, money, anything your heart could desire is in there.

(Geneva, before display case)

ROCKEFELLER: This is pre-Columbian Inca, solid gold.

MOYERS (voice-over): The Inca Empire, vast as it was, didn't have branches abroad. Its shamans stayed at home. Multinational companies like Chase straddle the world.

(Various shots of Chase personnel in money room)

WOMAN: Hello, good morning, Chase Manhattan Bank in Frankfurt.

MAN: Chase Manhattan Bank in Frankfurt, good morning.

MOYERS (voice-over): Chase has over 100 branches tied in with 6,000 correspondent banks doing business all over the globe.

WOMAN: (German)

MAN: I'm looking for some marks. Nothing there...

MOYERS (voice-over): The object is always the same: to keep money moving and to make it. One Chase executive likened multinational banks to a giant heart which pumps the blood that sustains the world. The blood is money. MAN: as usual, 45 million marks. Surely, do you think I deal in dollars?

MOYERS (voice-over): Here in this room it struck me as staggeringly impressive and not a little scary that a relatively small number of global entrepreneurs have accomplished what escaped the League of Nations and the UN

they have, in one way, created one world, governed by the cold logic of profit.

JOHN HALEY: We bankers have been pretty, pretty good at analyzing economic risk countries over the past 10 years. We can look at the balance of payments, the foreign exchange reserves, and the imports and exports, and the gold that they've got, and pretty well decide whether the country could pay you back or not when you lend them money for economic development, but where we haven't been terribly good is in analyzing political risk. Our experience has been that with, as long as there's a government in the country, the banks get paid back. There are prolongations because of crop failures or political turbulence. Sometimes you have to renegotiate your debt and you have to wait a little longer to get paid back, so you don't get paid back on time. The ultimate danger for the banker is not a change of governments, it's the absence of government, it's anarchy.

(Exterior, Kronesburg Castle)

ROCKEFELLER: The last time I was here I stayed here. They have a few rooms, and it's perfectly beautiful.

MOYERS: A few rooms?

ROCKEFELLER: Well, I mean a few rooms that are available for guests.

JOSEPH REED: Today we have the treasury secretary of Australia...

ROCKEFELLER: Whom you met the other day, John Howard...

REED: ... is having a big lunch...

ROCKEFELLER: Very nice.

REED: ... right next door to the lunch that Mr. Rockefeller's giving.

MOYERS: These paths keep crossing . . .

REED: That's right.

MOYERS: It's a mobile intersection.

ROCKEFELLER: The person that's giving the lunch is Prince Wittgenstein, who's the head of the Metalgesellschaft, which is one of our good customers. He was somebody who I had met in 1938 when I came and spent the Christmas vacation while I was at the London School of Economics with a friend of mine in Frankfurt. And we went to sort of the last fling before the war, and we went to all kinds of parties together. And he's giving the dinner, the lunch here for John Howard, the Treasurer of Australia.

MOYERS: Whom we saw in Belgrade the other day...

ROCKEFELLER: We saw in Belgrade.

MOYERS: Twice or three times.

ROCKEFELLER: And for whom I had given a lunch in New York only a short time ago.

MOYERS: Is there another network like this a network of friends, associates . . .

ROCKEFELLER: Oh, I'm sure there are many, but one of the advantages of having been around a long time is one meets a lot of people. I think we better go on in. Our guests will have probably started to arrive.

MOYERS: Okay.

MOYERS (voice-over): While David Rockefeller and a group of industrialists were dining on young pheasant and cranberries in that German castle, it occurred to me that the metaphor I used in Rome the other day is not the right one.

(Exterior, castle)

MOYERS: Then I thought of him as the chief cardinal in a universal church. But in the last 36 hours I've been listening to Rockefeller as he spoke to some of the leading, richest men in Rome, the Agnellis, the Androchis, the Dursos, and to bankers and businessmen in Milan, Geneva, and now here in Frankfurt, Germany. And that metaphor needs to be changed--For David Rockefeller is to this elite realm of international financiers what the Crown was to England in its most Imperial days. He personifies their world-view. He articulates their interests. He justifies their place and their power. And by his very demeanor, he reinforces their belief in the capitalist system. Like sovereigns of old, David Rockefeller is not beyond using the mailed fist. His associates still remember the time he decided that some three dozen of the top managers of the bank had to go. But it's his use of ceremony that is both unique and royal.

(Scenes of dining)

MOYERS (voice-over): It isn't, in the last analysis, the money he commands that gives him this place at the center of the international Establishment. It isn't special information that he imparts to his peers. It's reassurance, that's what a crown represents.

(Exterior, castle)

MOYERS: I thought I heard you doing a little business at lunch, just . . .

ROCKEFELLER: You did? Just a little bit, yes. .

MOYERS: Making the connection between one of your potential clients?

ROCKEFELLER: That's right.

MOYERS: You know, I'm interested in how you, you're a banker, and I've been watching to see when you played the role of the banker, and I saw it at lunch today.

ROCKEFELLER: Quite often, try to slip it in. Well, I mean, this was a very important client we do business with in most parts of the world but not in Germany, and I just said I thought it was time he included Germany as well.

MOYERS: And he said... ?

ROCKEFELLER: And he said that they were going to be spending a lot of money here and maybe the time had come.

MOYERS (voice-over): The week is almost over. There's one more stop. David Rockefeller is off to visit an old friend a former member of the Trilateral Commission. Rockefeller organized the Trilateral Commission in 1973 to promote informal conversations among the people who shape the foreign policies of Western Europe, Japan and the United States. Its members have included Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale, Cyrus Vance, and Zbigniew Brzezinski, among others. Rockefeller has come to Bonn, West Germany. He is asking a favor of former Trilateral member Karl Karstens. Karstens is now the President of the Republic of West Germany.

(Exterior, Bonn Outside a government building)

ROCKEFELLER: ... wanted to talk with you and we'll have more time later about the fact that we are bringing our international advisory committee of the Chase over to Germany in June of this coming year for the first time. KARSTENS: Yes... oh, that's (inaudible).......

ROCKEFELLER: Henry Kissinger is the Chairman of it. . .

KARSTENS: Is that so?

...

ROCKEFELLER: and Hans Emerchimer is the German member, people like Johnny Agnelli, all kinds of very interesting people, from all over the world, from, Mr. Tata from India...

KARSTENS: Yes, it's a very good group from what I see.

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, it is. And we were hoping that it might be possible for them to have a chance to meet with you, perhaps in Berlin, if you were going to be around.

KARSTENS: I would very much like to meet them. Of course, this depends somewhat...

ROCKEFELLER: On your program . . .

KARSTENS: on my program, on my other business, which I have, naturally.

ROCKEFELLER: ... of course, so... I was reminding Bill that you have been at our place in Tarrytown for the beginning of the Trilateral Commission, you remember that?

KARSTENS: The Trilateral Commission, yes, and I had hoped to be able to continue . . .

ROCKEFELLER: 1972...

KARSTENS: but then I was elected to...

ROCKEFELLER: ... drawn into politics...

KARSTENS: to such an extent that I...

ROCKEFELLER: You were a charter member. In fact, I would have to say that you were probably one of the first members of the Trilateral who was drawn out of Trilateral into government, and that process has continued...

KARSTENS: You have told me that...

ROCKEFELLER: ... Raymond Barre and (inaudible).......

KARSTENS: very impressing, yes..

ROCKEFELLER: ... not to mention a few in the United States, such as the President of the United States.

KARSTENS: Of course, I know...

MOYERS: Jimmy Carter was a member of the original Trilateral, wasn't he?

ROCKEFELLER: No, not, well, he wasn't a member of the founding group, but he joined within a year,

KARSTENS: Yeah, yeah, and that shows the wisdom of those who picked the members of the group.

ROCKEFELLER: Well, and, that's right, but you were a member of the European group...

KARSTENS: Yeah, Enrenbach and I were, at a very early stage, in that group. But then, unfortunately, I had to withdraw.

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, yes, ... well, we hope...

MOYERS: So did Jimmy Carter.

ROCKEFELLER: For similarly good reasons.

MOYERS: I've been stretching all week to try to find the right analogy to describe David Rockefeller and the world in which he moves. I've used the universal church, I've used the royalty of ancient England, but really I don't have to stretch that far. David Rockefeller is the most conspicuous representative today of the ruling class, a multinational fraternity of men who shape the global economy and manage the flow of its capital. Rockefeller was born to it, and he has made the most of it. But what some critics see as a vast international conspiracy, he considers a circumstance of life and just another day's work.

MOYERS: Do you think there is in the world a ruling class?

ROCKEFELLER: I really don't, I mean, there are lots of people who at any given moment in time have a major role of power in their own countries. This group is a constantly changing one. Certainly, if you look at the United States, I don't see that there is any ruling class. People are always, have been talking about the Eastern Establishment, whatever that may be. I suppose that I would be considered to be part of it and yet, I'm not, I couldn't tell you what the Eastern Establishment is, and furthermore, increasingly it seems to me that the centers of influence and authority in the country are spread all over the country. I don't think that in any real sense there is a small group of people who are somehow gathering together and plotting what should be done for the country.