Arts Alive from the Algonquin; No. 12; Jazz as America's Classical Music; Part 2

[Hendricks] But you said an interesting thing. I mean, you asked an interesting question. [Bloomgarden]That's good. (laughter) [Jon Hendricks] Well, that's a switch about [Hendricks] not feeling good in jazz and everybody being the same. [Hendricks] I think there's a lot to that. And I think that that it has deeper [Hendricks] implications. I think I think that I think that jazz is a music that brings [Henricks] people together and does inspire in them. [Henricks] And I get to share, which is what America is about. [Hendricks] It's ah...we are a government of the people, by the people, for the people. [Hendricks] You know, it's it's a if I may use the term a communal feeling. [Berger?] Yes. [Hendricks] And I think this may also be the reason that [Hendricks] that certain of the powers that be don't like jazz because they [Hendricks] I don't want the people to be together and they don't want this feeling [Hendricks] to be extant in the world. And I must say, Alina, I commend [Hendricks] Lincoln Center, and it's entire attitude. You know,

[Hendricks] because there's there's often a mistake among some [Hendricks] practitioners of jazz that if we have a deep appreciation [Hendricks] of jazz, we must then of necessity negate any other [Hendricks] form of music, like symphonic, classical music. [Hendricks= This is a tragic mistake. [Bloomgarden] Uh huh [Hendricks] [background noise cont.] You need not negate anything. [Hendricks] [ background noise cont.] We just want to have this music placed upon the same [Hendricks] level. [Reporter] Exactly. [Hendricks] Fully aware; that the other forms that are there belong there. [Bloomgarden] Exactly. [Berger] Knowing that Duke Ellington is great doesn't take anything away from Beethoven. [Hendricks] That's right. [Bloomgarden] Right. [Hendricks] Exactly right. [Berger] In fact, if you can appreciate the greatness of Duke Ellington, you might appreciate more of the greatness. [Hendricks] That's right. (inaudible) [Berger] And vice versa. [Hendricks] Exactly. [Marsalis] It's like in The Nutcracker Suite, Duke lays it out. [Marsalis] He goes, dum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, [Marsalis] bum, bum, bum, bum. Yeah, but what if he's laying it out? You know, this is what that is and this is what we're dealing with.

[Hendricks] Yeah. R.ight [Bloomgarden] I just sort of find it interesting that people may be listening to this program and [Bloomgarden] having absolutely no idea what jazz is all about, because for some reason, [Bloomgarden] like you say, it's been ignored or negated or shoved aside and only a core group [background chatter...cont.] has been able to enjoy the beauty of the music. [Bloomgarden] I just wish I knew how you can get out there more. [Bloomgarden' I mean, you know, you may you may make fun of the fact, hey, I have eight Grammys. [Bloomgarden] What difference does it make? But isn't that in and of itself getting out there? [Bloomgarden] That's that's promotion. That's advertisement. That's getting out there and getting people [Bloomgarden] to (inaudible) this publicity? [Hendricks] Yes. [Bloomgarden] I think Wynton has made a real contribution in terms of the fact that he [Bloomgarden] mastered both classical music and jazz and gave people the opportunity to make that [Bloomgarden] bridge. I can say that he couldn't say that. [Hendricks] I would like to say something about Wynton [Hendricks]. myself. (background chatter cont.) [Hendricks] I've heard [Bloomgarden] suffered through this. I've suffered through and suffer through. [Hendricks] It is right because, I've heard of great speeches.

[Hendricks] You know, I've heard of Patrick Henry's "Give Me Liberty," or "Give Me Death". [Bloomgarden] You weren't there. You weren't. [Hendricks] I was not there, but I did. [Hendricks]And it was a stirring speech. [Hendricks] And I've heard of many other stirring speeches. [Hendricks] But one of the most stirring speeches I have ever heard concerning [Hendricks] this cultural art form we know is Jazz, is Winton receiving Hendricks] [his Grammy and saying, (laughing) I [Hendricks] I would like to thank Duke Ellington, Thelonious [Hendricks] Monk, Charlie Parker, Count Basie, [Hendricks] whose music transcends and forced trends [Hendricks] and bad taste. (laughing) [Hendricks] This, I think, is the greatest utterance made on the subject of Jazz in the 20th century. Anything you say after that, (laughing). Let me say.... it's great that you memorized that that jazz. [Hendricks] Oh, I'll never forget as long as that I live.

I just wanna [Hendricks] I stood up. Let Let me just interrupt you, John, for one second. ( all laugh) That this is Arts Alive from the Algonquin, on a production of WNYC, AM and FM, New York Public Radio, today's host musician and Winton Marsalis and future great speechmaker (all laugh) and his guest, jazz singer John Hendricks. David Berger, conductor of the Classical Jazz Orchestra at Lincoln Center. And Elina Bloom garden, producer of the classical jazz series. Well, I just I mean, (Inaudible) I'm very sorry, but I am very speechless just I would just like to say to a lot of times, like talking about the publicity we get sometimes is bad because there is the perception that we are trying to denigrate other art forms, but it's not that we're trying to denigrate it, we're just trying to put it in perspective of what it is, you know, like if you like, if you is an analogy; I make all the time, it's like if you go to somebody's house, these eat dinner and they pull out eight big pies, we say all that. We have some pies tonight, too. That's good.

And then you sit down to eat and they give you the pie. You say, oh, I mean, I like pie, but where's the food? That's what I ask what our music education system and that's what the music scene is like. So a lot of times the media... (laugh) in the press, it'll seem like we are saying, well, this music is not good and it's not that it's not good is just it is out of proportion with what it is like is nothing wrong with a pie. But you have to eat food. You know, most of what you eat in a meal is food and then you eat some pie. And those who are raised on food don't have any problem with pies. But those weren't raise on pies they don't, they can't dig food too much. So this is what our struggle is. A lot of times out is to get our people to address the riches that we have in our culture, and it's not about us. It's not about publicity, trying to sell more records. it's not about the money. It's like I said, mainly I'm trying to come from my father and the fact that I can make a man like Mr. Hendrix proud. That's what we're trying to do, is make our elders and those who love us and have given [background chatting] us the information proud. That makes somebody whose designing video, so they can buy another mansion somewhere denigrating some young

13 or 14 year old girls. I don't really care how they feel or if they're mad, you know, and a lot of times as teenagers and I can remember being a teenager, our priorities are out of place because we'll go away from our parents and the people who that actually nurtured us and given their time and money and their love and their energy to make us and those we will leave them and follow the vision of those who don't care about us. I speak in a lot of schools and I always have to tell the students that because they get mad sometimes at the things that I'm saying, I say what man, how can you attack our music? You know, I have to tell them this is not your music. You don't you don't write any of these tunes, you don't put these videos together. The people who make these things are older than me. You, you are being victimized by these things, and I'm here to talk to you. So I'm me. I'm on your side. I'm not asking you to buy my records. And Mr. Hendrix is not doing it. And Mr. Berger and this is what our music really is about. Like Dave Berg is transcribe hundreds of pieces in his love, and respect for the music is so great. Just the fact that he knows that I'm interested in it, he'll just give me scores. It took hours of his time working on it and call me and help me discuss

the scores. And all through all of my life, the music we've had this I've had this like I was playing in play. Sweeney Todd, it's cause an older trumpet player, a guy named Womarwise just gave me a job. And the older musicians, when they find out that you serious and you want to learn the music, they just open themselves up to you and give you the information free of charge. And it's really a great love in our music. I'm sure Dave can talk on that because he's so instrumental and given so much information of people. I do a lot of teaching, and I mean, they do they do pay me to do the teaching, but that's not the reason that I do it. I do it because I love this music so much that I want other people to, to see how good it is and how it can enrich their lives, how it's helped me to understand the world and see beauty, and it can help them, too. And I hate to see someone go through a portion of their lives or maybe their whole lives without, without seeing this music and knowing that it exists. I teach, I teach in some very good jazz programs, and most of these students are unaware of music created before 1970,

1965. So many of them known a little bit about John Coltrane's music. But before that, they're fairly ignorant and certainly before bebop, they have no idea that it even exists or has any relevance to them. And so it's, it's a great experience for me to show this music to them and then see the smiles come on their face when they realize how great a Louis Armstrong was or Duke Ellington or any of those musicians that played in the 20s and 30s. We think of that music as being kind of prehistoric, primitive. But when you when you sit down and you try to play like a Jelly Roll Morton piece, Jelly Roll Morton music and oh, around World War One and in the 20s, early 20s. And after that, he was relegated to the past. People thought of them as being old fashioned and the music had little value. But when when I give this to my students now and we play something like Black Quantum Stomp, I say these guys really play. this! This part is incredibly difficult! And yet when you do play it, it's so beautiful. How could these play this way back then, 60 years ago, 70 years ago, they were playing this music and we can't even play it now.

How come that is? How come that is? because we've had several generations of ignorance or deterioration in the artistry and the sense of artistry and the idea that you should pursue artistry. Yeah, definitely. This is an idea of what is current is good. What is in the past is, is for the past. It's no, it's no longer pertinent to our lives today. But that's not true. Well, no society that has ever thought that way has ever existed for any length of time. it's, it's reverence for what has passed. that makes a society. We have to, what we have to do is address jazz as an art, as a as a fine art form. That is that the music, the best of jazz is timeless, and that it is as pertinent now as it ever was, maybe more so. And that the and that pop music is different pop music, you listen to it and in a few months it's off the radio. You never hear it again, that's OK. And then when you grow up and and you're like an older person and then you start listening to it, it's a nostalgia music, just like people in their 60s and 70s.

Now we'll listen to like Glenn Miller. That's a nostalgia music. That's not the same week that some of those Glenn Miller records were recorded. Duke Ellington and Count Basie were making classic records that are studied now, and you can learn from. The Glenn Miller records have little to offer in the way of art, but were much more popular at the time. So we have to look at modern, our modern times now, is that like right now, whatever is in the top 40 will not have much musical relevance 20 years from now. However, if there were if there was a jazz record being made now that is coming out, the tradition, it will always have the relevance. Well, I have one in mind. I'm so excited about our program coming up this week. Of yeah, not only are we going to be featuring Duke Ellington's Nutcracker Suite, played by the wonderful classical jazz orchestra, which it really is a wonderful orchestra. But we have Winton and his group performing original arrangements that Winton has put together over Christmas and holiday standards. And I think that, that's coming from a record that might become a standard. I think, oh no.. mainly the thing that we're trying to do is sometimes, you know, if you talk too

much about this is all right and people should study the impression that it is not fun or, you know, it doesn't have humorous aspects or it's only for some small group of people. And that's not really what the music is about. You know, of the reason that we sometimes we have to be so forceful in our comments is there's so much uh.. so much negativity has been associated with the music. And we want to say that the music has a certain beauty and there are different aspects of like they have very light aspects, the comic aspects of jazz, which in New Orleans, you know, there's a full range of what is human in in the music. And it's a, it's not about past or present. It's always present, it's like The Iliad and The Odyssey. If you read that, if you read The Odyssey, when Odysseus is coming to get those people in his house, you want him to get them. And it's just the way that you feel about these things because you can relate to them. And the reason that art and these things are important is that it reminds you of who you are. It's like El -Mario always tells me, he's a great mentor and teacher of mine. He's written a great book called Stomping the Blues.

He always would tell me over the last eight and nine years, his son, if you're going to go in any direction forward or backwards, you have to know where you are. You have to know where you are and who you are. And if you don't really have, this music is just one more thing that will let you know what it means to be American, to live in the 20th century, because the world is changing very rapidly with the air, with the airplane, and we're all coming much closer together in Jazz music. Curiously enough, is that synthesis? It is world music because Jelly Roll Morton specifically states that in New Orleans around the turn of the century when the music was created, all types of people actually live together. It was an intellectual combination of some Mans mind with Spanish people, French people, African, different types of Africans or Anglo Americans. All these different people actually lived Indians, lived in the same community and did their communal experience dealing with their prejudices and living together wasn't they didn't even have segregated housing at that particular time. And a lot of the music doesn't come out of brothels and houses of prostitution.

It comes from picnics and parades and the different gatherings that the people had. The combination of these people's sensibilities is what this music is, and that is why it is timeless. That's why it is beautiful. And that is, it is that, is why it's an indication of what the world is going to become. Because now we have a world community. You know, it's not like America on a white American, a black America We're still dealing with provincial issues. We even talk about black or white America, because now that American means world and that is what's happening with the world. So it can be a unifying force. It is a unified... it is to those who knows.. who know it is that already. And I get letters from all over the world, you know, China, Japan, South Africa, Brazil, people saying, yeah, you know, the music, I checked out Coltrane on I, Dog Monk and the Blues as a musical form is tied into music from all over the world. If you take the scales in Chinese music, boo, boo, boo, wee, bee-a, boowee-a as a blue's scale boo boo, boo, boo, bea, boody, boo, boody, doo, bea, da Japanese music bae boo boo wee-a-o-wee

That could be a blues. Hmm. If you take all the eastern music, [inaudible] it has a whole semitones. That's blues music too. Yeah it is. And all the percussive music from Africa and in Cuba and all of these are blues elements. And speaking of it as a unifying force, Benny Goodman utilized the music and his love for the music to break down what had then been rigid racial barriers, you know, you couldn't have a, quote, mixed band unquote, you know, which, which is antediluvian, was antediluvian then. Now we can realize that that it was antediluvian in prehistoric and all that. But it was a fact of life. But through his his zeal and love for the music, he wanted Lionel Hampton and he wanted Teddy Wilson. And Charlie Christian. So against all advice of all his managers and on everybody else, he said, I like these guys. I want these guys. So he put them with with him and broke all this

this barrier down, which shows you just what these barriers are made of. They're made of paper... hmmm.. because they don't really exist. Well, all you have to do is look at the range of color of people in the country. And you know that many barriers have been broken down many times. Absolutely. Absolutely. ( all laugh) absolutely. I don't think that even has to be a question in that arena. (laughing) You know, people go for what they know. When you look back over your life, John, and your professional life, do you see can you chart great changes in the way we have looked at jazz or respected jazz or incorporated jazz into our life? Are we at a good point now? Well, that's that's an interesting question, because I have done that. And there are some startling things that that you can cite. Ah.. The importance in the music of the trumpet transcends the fact that it is, that it is a lead instrument, you know, in

the history of the music, whenever any great movement in the music from one form to another came about together with the fact that whenever the country was in any kind of great economic or or political turmoil, it's always preceded an upswing in the acceptance of jazz music, usually following a depression in the 20s after World War One. That depression period is even called the Jazz Age, because the music was everywhere. It was the music you heard healing everywhere. And that era was ushered in light by Gabriel Louis Armstrong. Then after another great upheaval, World War Two, we had a economic, but they didn't call it a recession because nobody ever wanted to see that with depression again because the time was so terrible.

So they just got rid of got rid of the word and describe the same kind of an economic lack as a recession, that era was ushered in by another Gabriel, and that was Dizzy Gillespie. And then after the war in Korea and we had another economic upheaval, then there was Miles Davis. Then we had, then we had the war in um... Vietnam, Vietnam! And we had Freddie Hubbard. Then we had a great what they call a Cold War. We have witnessed so that there's always been there's always been at it at some time in the company's economic development, a resurgence of the music because the music has never gone anywhere. You know, we who play it and love it. We know there's never been a time in our lives when there wasn't the music.

The music is eternal. It flows like a river. But in the in the minds and in the ears of the general population, there are ups and downs and in their awareness of the music. And so we're in now the time following what we can call the Cold War. And we have probably the greatest ?Gabriliestic? influence on the trumpet in Winton because because what he has done is more than any trumpet player has done that preceded him. What has he done? Well, he's he's he's transcended all the boundaries. He he has made it easier for Lincoln Center to open its doors to jazz because he is as proficient in the music to which they do subscribe as he is in jazz.

So this make this is a very important thing for the music. You know, no longer need anyone have any elitist type of an attitude towards jazz who plays symphonic classical music. They can't do that anymore, Winton's wiped that out. That's a great achievement and a great step. There's a hush, there is a hush, but it's true that when we started classical jazz, I really felt that we could address ourselves at Lincoln Center to the vision that Winton was really wanting to set forth. I just had a feeling that we could serve that vision, and that's really what I put myself in service of. And when I first spoke to Winton, he was very receptive to it. And that's kind of how classical jazz came about. And it's certainly borne fruit. So, I think John is very right about that and everyone at Lincoln Center and the audience there. Makes that bridge because it's somebody like Winton who can speak so well for it and then

make the right condition for other musicians who have been around a long time, as Winton would say, and who have a lot to say. And by this bridge being built, an opportunity is given to many musicians who deserve it for a long time. So, now we're having a chance to come together over the music fairs. So, it's very moving, those moments, those moments when they happen. Yeah. I think it's kind of unfortunate, that it has to it has to be that that we need Winton to be proficient in in classical music and jazz in order to convince people the validity of jazz and its and its place in the American pantheon of the arts. I mean, I'm glad that that it's happened and that it's happening and that Winton was available to do that. Um, but jazz shouldn't be judged by European standards. Right. And so people are saying, well, jazz must be on a high level because Winton Marsalis would stop playing classical music

and play jazz, so he must think that jazz is better than classical music. It's not that one is better than the other or that or that he made the choice because, well, he could tell you why he made the choice, which is mainly because, I mean, jazz jazz music is the music of our people, of the American people. This is how I grew up. It's my experience. And I really love classical music andnd I feel very fortunate that I had the opportunity to play with as many great musicians and have as many great teachers as I had. But jazz music is more about us, and it just you always want to deal with something that illuminates your group of people, not against any other people. There's another thing is our music is about the same type of love that the best of classical music is about. And I always get the question, People always say, well, when is something new gonna come in jazz? But not necessarily people as mainly writers, because people love the music because they will when is something new going to come in jazz?

And I'm reminded of just the state of German opera before Varden. Wagner. Everywhere you went, they walked, everybody was dealing with Italian music. He's saying, well, you know, what about German music? We have all these great composers. We have all of this music. Let's do something with that music. Let's train singers in our style. And whether you like Varden or not, that's not really the point. The point is that he dedicated his whole life and was very stubborn and hardheaded against many obstacles to get a German vision. Not maybe his philosophy was against other people, but that's not what other people around the world get when they listen to their music. They get the human ideology up and think about our music we're trying to get across is that it is beautiful, it is timeless, It is like Jones. It is a river that flows eternal. It touches something very deep and ancient in the human soul. And Duke Ellington is like occupies the same position in our music that Bach occupies in European music. You know, Bach consolidated the compositional conception. He consolidated all of the forms of that music, like the concerto form the big mass form with the vocal

music and the large form Small Concerto Concerto Groso form the mean as a forms that able to edit. I'd have to sit down and really think about. And Duke Ellington is the same way he could be, but consolidated the technique of composition, a way of playing the piano. We have using the different instruments. And his music was studied by all of the great composers. Beethoven commented on on, on Bach's music and in all of the subsequent composers and those who didn't deal with Bach directly by dealing with Beethoven, they were indirectly dealing with Bach. And at the end of his life, Beethoven was always saying, what I have to learn how to deal with these fugues, because this is what Bach has laid out for us to deal with. And Duke Ellington occupies that same position in American music. And the only difference is nobody is dealing with his music at all. So he lays out a way to write accompaniments behind vocals. A concerto form, a whole unique type of harmony and conception of blues harmony was a lot of times is misconstrued. A song like Debussy, Ravel really have nothing in common.

And if they study and intellect is put to these forms, it becomes apparent that they have nothing in common. All types of blue moon pieces and many thousands of genres, all types of forms are not really being taught. I think that when we teach these things and we start to get this information to our students and we spend the type of energy doing this that we spend trying to develop space shuttle and other type of technical advancements that we've enjoyed, which are very valid and important things, then we will see a great leap forward in the American aesthetic, in American music. When should I use sort of trying to address these forms when you really have been striving to become more of a composer, I mean, in your in your records lately? And are you trying to address some of Duke's forms and really apply yourself to some of those? I'm doing the best that I can do based on what I know. But my thoughts are more people much younger than me who are like 12 or 13 or 10 or 8 or 9 to get the information to them. And I know a lot of them would be like like basketball. I mean, millions of kids play basketball and they get coaching and they go all over and

then you produce one Michael Jordan. OK, I think we need to do a children's program at Lincoln Center. That's that's one thing we could do. Yeah, (laugh) I agree. Let's do that. I agree with you. OK, good. We'll do it. Guess what. Right. We run out of time. (laughing) Well, the mics are still on. Five cents a cup.. I think this hour went really quickly I thought it was fascinating, all of you, Winton Marsalis, Jon Hendricks, David Berger, Alina Bloom Garden, thanks so much for coming to brunch and sharing all of your knowledge and your feeling, your good feelings about this high art form. Join us next week from the Algonquin Hotel with host Eden Rosslipson, children's book editor at The New York Times. The broadcast of Art's Live from the Algonquin is made [background music] possible in part with the generous [Music cont.] support of national Westminster banks, serving the financial needs of businesses and [Music cont.] consumers, with offices throughout Long Island, Westchester, New York City and New Jersey and by the Hearst Corporation. There's magazines, newspapers, radio, and television stations are committed to bringing people closer together through excellence in

communications. The executive producer of Arts Alive from the Algonquin is Andrew Anspach. Our engineer is Carol Martino. WNYC wishes to thank the Algonquin and its staff for their help. I'm Sandy Klein. Arts Alive from the Algonquin is a production of WNYC, AM and FM New York Public Radio.