Diane Rehm show; [1993-11-15--excerpt], Interview with Wilma Mankiller, Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation ; Part 2

He eight five eighty eight fifty, and we'll open the phones now you can join us. How I talk with Chief Wilma Mankiller. She is the principal chief of the Cherokee Nation at eight five, 88 50. Deborah, you're on the air. Hi. I want to welcome Chief Mankiller to the Washington area. And I'm from Oklahoma, and she's always been a big inspiration for me and especially as a young girl growing up there. I have two quick questions. One is and I just finished reading her book, and I would really like to know how to get more information about the people that did not make it to Oklahoma and to the Cherokee Nation in the West. And the second quick question is, how can we continue to support efforts for a Western Hemisphere, Western solidarity between all indigenous people, the the people, many of the people who did not make it to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears? Actually, we formed a community and a tribe, which is called the Eastern Band of Turkey Indians on the reservation in

the Smoky Mountains. And so they have a separate political system and a separate chief there in the Smoky Mountains of North Carolina. And we meet with them every two, two years to try to make sure that we keep a close relationship with them. I think that solidarity between native people has got to occur, and I've seen more movement in that direction in the last 10 years than ever before. I think that because tribes are so different and each tribe has their own language as you know, their own political system, their own history and their culture. There are differences, but there are many more things that we have in common. And what we learn to do is to focus on the things that we agree on and not focus on the things that we disagree on. And so I think that there are many efforts to bring us together, particularly around issues that we agree on. And I think that's our only hope for having an impact in Washington or at the U.N. Many Native American

groups have turned to legalize gambling within their own communities. Is that a sensible approach? And in your own mind, in terms of revenue raising, in terms of bringing the community together and having an impact? I think that I think that gaming is just a business. You could you could just as we are a Cherokee Nation, industries make parts for trucks, another that doesn't define who we are. And as a people, some people get involved in casino gaming. And it's just a business is just one way of raising money. But that's not who people are. Chief Mankiller, talk, if you would, about that original Trail of Tears, how many people were involved and how much ground it covered? The the original Trail of Tears occurred in 1838. In 1839, President Jefferson, actually an American

hero, conceptualized the idea of Indian removal and then President Jackson carried it out. And the idea was to remove us from our homeland in the southeast to Indian territory, which was land set aside to receive tribes who had been forced off their homeland. The U.S. Army troops went out and gathered up approximately 18000 Cherokees and confiscated their land, their houses, their property to help them in stockades and prepared for them for the removal. Much of it was on foot. It spans several states. Much of it was in winter. And by the time the last contingent of Cherokees ended up in Indian territory in April of 1839, fully one fourth of our entire tribe, more than 4000 people died either while being held in the stockades or on the removal itself. Is there any way in your mind that the United States government can ever make full reparation to the Native

Americans who were not only here at the time Columbus arrived, but whose ancestors were part of that forced rezoning, if you will? I don't think there's any way you can ever make up for the loss of homelands and the devastation that happened as a result of the removals and the Indian wars. There's just no way that that could ever, ever be made up. There's no way that that we can go home again to to our original homeland in the Southeast after being separated for 150 years or more. And but I think that they can uphold treaty rights and. Solemn sacred agreements they made with tribes, and that's one of the things that we fight for now constantly, is for the treaty provisions that said that we would at least be provided with health care and education in exchange for the large loss of land and lives.

And what we're doing is trying to make sure that's upheld. And unfortunately, the, uh, the matter of reliability on the part of the US with relation to its attitude and action toward Native Americans is not being very great. No, it's not been very good either either Republicans or Democrats. Neither neither party has been particularly helpful to the native people. And we're a small part of the population. We don't make huge campaign contributions. And so people who do things for us have to do it because it's the right thing to do, not necessarily because it's the most politically advantageous thing to do. Eight eight, five eighty eight fifty. Barbara, you're on the air. Thanks, Diane. I'm a first time caller. It's a pleasure to be on with Chief Mankiller. Good to meet you. You bring a wealth of wisdom and experience to the political process. What do you see as your future political aspirations within the Cherokee tribe

or in a different arena? Well, you know, I'm asked a lot to run for Congress because most of our area, the Cherokee Nation is is in the 2nd Congressional District in Oklahoma. We have an outstanding congressman who has my full support, Congressman Signer. So it's not something that I would consider. But even if he were not there for me, that I'm just not interested in any kind of mainstream political office. I like to help other women and other native people work on their campaigns and that sort of thing. But it's not my it's not my cup of tea. I'm actually interested in doing a lot of Saturday academies to try to get people interested in language, culture and history and are in our tribe. And I'm also very, very interested in spirituality and world religions and whether there are any similarities between the native spirituality and other world religions.

And I'm also interested in the role women have played in in world religions. I found in doing research for this book, my book is not just an autobiography, it's also about history. And I did some research for the book and ran into as late as 18, 10 or 11 Cherokee traditionalists, referring to the creator as the mother of all nations. And I think I'd be very, very interesting to track that and other such references, not only in native religion, but in world religions in general, maybe for my own interest, maybe for a book. Thank you. Thanks for calling. Barbara Glendower. You're on the air. Yes. I just wanted to greet you. I've admired you for all the years that you have been the chief of your nation. My question was related to the I guess, the history of Cherokee's, the policies of assimilating and the Trail of Tears.

My some of my ancestors were, I guess, escapees from the Trail of Tears and and more assimilating. I know that there's a band of Cherokees in Kentucky that are trying to form a nation or a recognized reservation or something. I was wondering if you had any sort of plans for outreach. I know blood wise, my mother was as much Cherokee as your daughters are. And so I know that she suffered some prejudice as she was growing up. Kids weren't allowed to play with her or her family because they were those Indians. And of course, she got called a few names at various times when she was growing up. I think her parents reacted by teaching her to be very proud of her heritage. And so I guess I'm disappointed in a sense that no one has made any effort to reach those of us who had ancestors that escaped the trail and who unfortunately were part of the assimilation and our escape and the escape to the trail. There was a lot of intermarriage with the white pioneers who were there and were sympathetic toward the Cherokees.

Mm hmm. Well, I think you bring up an issue that's a very important issue, not only for our tribe, but for all the tribe and tribes. And that is how to deal with with members who are not enrolled and not eligible for Enroll Rollman. In fact, I call for a national conference within the next year or a year and a half for native people ourselves to sit down and figure out how to how to deal with that. There's a lot of negative reaction right now to noninvolvement. Because of the some sort of self-proclaimed turkus who are claiming to be medicine people and charging enormous amounts of money to take young girls into sweat lodges and and then perform ceremonies of dubious benefit, some fellows out doing a selling Cherki sex secrets. And, you know, there's some other group of self-proclaimed churches are involved in insurance fraud in Texas.

So what we're trying to prevent is some kind of broad brush approach to all the non enrolled people because of the actions of a few people that are unscrupulous. So anyway, I think there'll be a conference on the whole issue within the next year and a half later. You're on the air. Yes. Chief Mankiller and Diane Lessness. I hope my words can speak within my heart. Your previous caller was very much on the same path that I wanted to take us to court. My father ran away from West Texas. He was an escapee, Comanche, and he raised his family, my sisters and brothers, to believe that we're white. And I didn't need Native American people until I started college in Davis, California, and experience a lot of that subtle, quiet. You're not there sort of rejection. And I think it's such a shame that there are so many people

on this path that have things to offer and who deserve some recognition. And and I've offered for the last since I graduated from college and I've worked with Native American people at Deakin University. And I even taught my first year of teaching in a Native American community. And I just it's such a shame that there are so many good people out there that are being rejected and shut away from the Native American community when they could be of support as well as of being supported. Pure Chief Mankiller. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I think that that's something that we need to address collectively, not just our tribe, but all the tribes. And I hope to be able to do that in some way within the next year and a half or so. Just sit down and deal with the issue. And in a very informal conference setting. And you're right. I agree with you totally.

Really, the biggest news event of 1993 may be listening tonight at 8:00 when WAMU debuts the new special, 1993 A Year in Review. The show covers news highlights from the past year, including the shaky beginning of the Clinton administration, the rebellion in Russia, the war in the former Yugoslavia, the standoff with David Koresh, Somalia, Haiti and more. That's 1993, a year in review tonight at 8:00 and again Saturday morning at 11:00 here on WAMU. Eighty eight five p.m. 1969 was a key year for you when Native Americans took over Alcatraz. Talk about that experience. Well, that time was a very interesting time. 1969, the music had changed and the and the San Francisco Bay Area where I live, there were a lot of middle class young people coming to San Francisco who really were. We're looking for a new way of living.

And many of them settled in the Haight Ashbury district. The civil rights movement was going on. The women's movement was starting to really come into its own. And right in the middle of all that, there's a free speech movement at UC Berkeley, anti-war activity going on. And right in the middle of all that, a group of students from San Francisco State and UC Berkeley occupied Alcatraz Island. And so, you know, that time was a time of tremendous change. My whole family got involved in the Alcatraz Island occupation, and it was it was a watershed experience for me. I began to become much more politically active and politically aware. What do you what do you think was accomplished by that takeover? Well, I think that on a on a Native American leadership level, many of us who were involved during that period of time really kind of came into our own.

We collectively were able to stand up and say treaty rights are important, education is important, health care is important, and we're going to fight for the right to have these things. So that was one level on national and international. I think it focused a lot of attention on native issues and on native the conditions and tribal communities throughout the United. So I think those were the two two main things, a lot of education, Chief Mankiller, in addition to your political growth and the understanding that you have come to about your own people in your own role with them, you've you've had some great difficulties. You had a very serious automobile accident. You've had a kidney transplant. You've had you've suffered from myasthenia gravis. Um, tell us how you are today and what those events meant in your life.

Well, I'm fine today. I mean, as well as you can't can be your health with a kidney transplant is always perilous. But, uh, but I you know, I do my work and I'm I'm in relatively good health. Most of the time. I would say 95 percent of the time the kidney transplant came from came from my brother to whom I dedicated the book, both because he's the brother who quit school in the eighth grade to support us, which was enough for any lifetime, and then later gave me a kidney. And so he now has one kidney and I have his other one. And but they actually I think that rather than sitting around wringing my hands over these things as they happen to me, I try to try to find something positive to to to grab onto and all those experiences, the automobile accident, myasthenia gravis and then kidney failure. And in a strange way, the these things have helped me to become a more mature, calm and level person. How so? Spell that out. Well, I think when you the one in the car accident had a near-death experience

very, very close to death and my girlfriend was killed in that car accident, she was in the other car and I was in my own car. And in that in the recovery period from that, both remembering the near-death experience and having time to to reflect on on what I was doing and where I was going and understanding how very quickly your life can be taken from you, I think had a profound effect on me also after experiencing death and being able to reach out and actually touch it, know what it feels like. I lost the fear of death and I think, therefore, I lost the fear of life. And so after after I began to recover and I had the battle with myasthenia gravis, I think I could deal with that in a totally different way. What kind of symptoms were there with the myasthenia gravis? They were extremely frustrating as part of the muscular dystrophy family. Actually, I lost the ability to brush my hair, brush my teeth.

I couldn't use my hands. I would sometimes couldn't hold my head up because the muscles in my neck had given away. I lost about 45 pounds because I would choke when I would swallow much of the time, I had to use very thick prisms in order to even see because my eyes would roll around, I'd fall down and my sister would run me around to all these neurologists who didn't know what was wrong with me until I was finally diagnosed with myasthenia gravis. I had a time ectomy which they go behind your heart and take out your thymus as a treatment. And it works for some patients and and doesn't for others. For me, it it began to work almost immediately. And coupled with drug therapy, it went into remission. I had that done in eighty. It went into remission in eighty five. And I haven't had any symptoms since then. As soon as I got over that, then I started having kidney failure and had they had the kidney transplant. But I've taken all those things kind of in stride.

I think that I don't have any control over what happens to my body at all. It's just going to happen. But I have a lot of control over my attitude toward it and I absolutely have control that I've done. I went to work on a wheelchair, went to work on crutches and just refused to allow myself to slide into any kind of negative state of mind. You use a cane today that that appears to be the only apparent residue of your illness. That's right. And I use a cane only I'd say about 25 percent of the time. Usually when I'm traveling and I have to walk a lot and that sort of thing and so otherwise. Have you met me on the street? You'd never know that I had these serious health problems. You've overcome an extraordinary amount in your own life. Is is there in your mind a sense that you must be here for a very good reason? Well, I think I finally began to understand that people kept saying that after the

automobile accident, when I came so close to death, I thought I had Will myself back from dying. But as it turned out, there was a woman in the ambulance straddling me who was. Keeping me keeping me alive and refusing to let me go and but people kept saying there must be some reason why you survived and and I couldn't see that. But I'm finally beginning to understand that. And I'm beginning to understand, in a way, Sherry, my my friend who was in the other car, who died, I always now I can look at a picture of Sherry and almost feel like Sherry gave her life. And I she gave me the ability to lead. And in a very strange way, Wilma Mankiller, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, her new book is called Mankiller A Chief and Her People. Thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. I enjoyed it. I did, too. And if you'd like to have a cassette copy of today's program, give us a call for information on eight eight five one 030.

Coming up, novelist Barbara Kingsolver with her most recent is called Pigs in Heaven. This is radio in the American Tradition, 88 Friday, PNW AM. In Washington, I'm Diane Rehm. Back after the news.