New Dimensions; Senior Actualization and Growth Experience; Part 4

<v Speaker>[Song: Matthew by John Denver] <v Michael Toms>It's a wonderful song that John Denver sings entitled, Matthew.

<v Michael Toms>He has so many songs where he comes out of his past, his childhood <v Michael Toms>and living with the older people. <v Michael Toms>I wanted to let our listeners know that one of the things that's happened here at KQED <v Michael Toms>is that the radio station has a new station manager, and that's a positive <v Michael Toms>thing. And, um, the new station manager <v Michael Toms>is wondering who listens to programs. <v Michael Toms>And so one of the ways to find out who listens to programs is to hear from people who <v Michael Toms>listen to them. So we're asking you to let the station manager <v Michael Toms>at KQED have em know that you listen to New Dimensions. <v Michael Toms>And so if you do that, it will help the station to know <v Michael Toms>who listens. And it will also serve us as well. <v Michael Toms>So we'll be happy to send you a radio calendar if you don't have one. <v Michael Toms>In any case, write to New Dimensions care of KQED. <v Michael Toms>FM and the address is 508th Street, San Francisco <v Michael Toms>94103. <v Michael Toms>That's New Dimensions in care of KQED FM, 508th Street,

<v Michael Toms>San Francisco 94103. <v Michael Toms>And let the station know that you listen, and we thank you. <v Jeff Mishlove>You know, Gay, when I- when I can be in touch with my feelings about <v Jeff Mishlove>your process and I in observing myself, I see that I go in and out of that. <v Jeff Mishlove>It strikes me that what you're doing is <v Jeff Mishlove>is revolutionary in the most profound sense and the most spiritual sense of <v Jeff Mishlove>of the term. And in our spiritual culture, we seem to have this notion <v Jeff Mishlove>of making it, of getting it, of being enlightened, of arriving. <v Jeff Mishlove>But it strikes me that we don't really arrive until we <v Jeff Mishlove>end our life. That's that's the moment of arrival. <v Jeff Mishlove>And that's the part that we kind of sweep away, that we hide that gets <v Jeff Mishlove>lost because it's it's not glamorous, but it's- it's so much more real. <v Jeff Mishlove>It's- it's so much- it's so much more basic in terms of facing <v Jeff Mishlove>the most essential issues.

<v Jeff Mishlove>Why- Why are we here? Why have I lived my whole life? <v Jeff Mishlove>What does life mean? These- I'm sure these are the questions that get <v Jeff Mishlove>dealt with in your program, the questions that in our- in our culture <v Jeff Mishlove>of mass media and transportation and continual crisis, <v Jeff Mishlove>the questions that never really get asked, rarely get asked <v Jeff Mishlove>these days. <v Gay Luce>I think that's true. I think that's where we want to spend our <v Gay Luce>time. I've often thought, for example, that we've so misnamed <v Gay Luce>things. It's like missnaming death as <v Gay Luce>'the end.' Where are we supposed to go? <v Gay Luce>How can we fall out of this universe? <v Gay Luce>How can that be possible? Where is there to go? <v Gay Luce>You know, so we take a different form. <v Gay Luce>But where is there to go? <v Gay Luce>We can't go. <v Gay Luce>And the same thing is true. I think even about. <v Gay Luce>I used to be involved in sleep, as you know.

<v Gay Luce>I wish there were a program like this at 3 and 4 in the morning <v Gay Luce>because lots of older people wake up, but they don't have their own program. <v Gay Luce>It's like the people who are older who wake up <v Gay Luce>don't have a way of putting on television and on radio <v Gay Luce>those things they want to hear. <v Gay Luce>What would be meaningful for them? We've never asked. <v Gay Luce>We've never made- somehow. <v Gay Luce>What I see is so unfair in our society and it's coming back to the problem level <v Gay Luce>is that the channels whereby we can talk about meaning <v Gay Luce>to one another are not as open to some of the people as it is- as they are <v Gay Luce>to others, and older people typically don't want to get out and <v Gay Luce>hustle and, you know, create a big network <v Gay Luce>and so on. <v Jeff Mishlove>And haven't they bought into the to the notion that they're not important now, that <v Jeff Mishlove>they've grown old, that the world will go on without them, that they have nothing to <v Jeff Mishlove>offer?

<v Gay Luce>I think a lot of them have. And I wish that my <v Gay Luce>life could be a personal invitation for them to realize how important <v Gay Luce>they are to us,[Jeff Mishlove: Ahh] how important. <v Gay Luce>We cannot survive without them. <v Gay Luce>We cannot their presence. <v Gay Luce>It's like just as having been born. <v Gay Luce>I am going to go through phases and seasons of my life. <v Gay Luce>And without parenting, without schooling, that could <v Gay Luce>be total chaos. The learning process could be simply dreadful. <v Gay Luce>I have the same feeling about dying. I have the same feeling about the ending of my life. <v Gay Luce>And I also know that I simply want the comfort <v Gay Luce>of being with some of these people whose wisdom allows them to be differently <v Gay Luce>than I can be at my stage. <v Gay Luce>I want that healing touch.

<v Gay Luce>When you said the word crisis, it triggered a flash in my mind that a crisis is a failure <v Gay Luce>of consciousness. <v Gay Luce>And the moment somebody comes in who is calm and has a presence <v Gay Luce>that covers that crisis with calm and <v Gay Luce>there's a change of heart about it. <v Gay Luce>It's no longer a crisis. <v Gay Luce>So I can't be dying in an automobile crash- crash, <v Gay Luce>and I can be in crisis of pain and resistance and no, no, <v Gay Luce>and how did this happen? and blah, blah, blah. <v Gay Luce>And someone can come in and put a hand on me. <v Gay Luce>And I can go through the process of leaving my body totally differently. <v Gay Luce>It's not a crisis. <v Gay Luce>I'm taken to the hospital or something my way, whatever we consider a crisis. <v Gay Luce>I'm late getting to this radio program, and I think that <v Gay Luce>there is something generated by older people who see <v Gay Luce>that the hurry and the crisis and the urgency and the passions and the attachment.

<v Gay Luce>Only create more resistance whether they would say it in those words or not. <v Gay Luce>But by their being detaching from those <v Gay Luce>ways of treating experience, allow us <v Gay Luce>to detach to. <v Gay Luce>Maybe that's part of it, that the process of growing older is <v Gay Luce>hopefully a process of letting go some of the attachments. <v Gay Luce>And allowing those of us who are still enmeshed in them to experience that <v Gay Luce>through another human being and thereby learn because we don't learn by words, we learned <v Gay Luce>by models. <v Gay Luce>I mean, we can't survive without our older people knowing their wisdom and being <v Gay Luce>among us. We cannot afford to segregate them out. <v Gay Luce>We have to be with your grandfather. <v Gay Luce>We have to know that as he is opening toward that <v Gay Luce>beginning, which is death, he is experiencing the immensity. <v Gay Luce>That's an experience that that when you tell it to me, makes

<v Gay Luce>my fear of death changed into awe. <v Gay Luce>And oh, maybe I want to know that. <v Gay Luce>Instead of, please keep it away and don't tell me about it. <v Gay Luce>I think the more we keep it away, it's like visiting <v Gay Luce>places like prisons or nursing homes. <v Gay Luce>You're not too different in some ways in the sense that people <v Gay Luce>don't have free mobility. <v Gay Luce>Maybe that's the intent. I mean, lots of nursing homes are really nice and the people <v Gay Luce>around are caring, but there's no mobility and there's a lot of choices <v Gay Luce>that aren't left up to the people in it. <v Gay Luce>Visiting those places is a little scary to us because it also means giving <v Gay Luce>up something which we are eventually going to have to give <v Gay Luce>up our own mobility. <v Gay Luce>You know, our own ability to make all the kinds of choices <v Gay Luce>which we think now constitute life, constitute consciousness,

<v Gay Luce>and we know somewhere that they don't. <v Gay Luce>We can't afford to be segregated out from that because the more we avoid it, the <v Gay Luce>more we fear and resist and the less we know. <v Gay Luce>Just like being around your grandfather or my mother or the people at Sage. <v Gay Luce>The more I'm around them, the more they model for me what is possible for <v Gay Luce>me as I get older. <v Gay Luce>And I want that model. There are many positive models around. <v Gay Luce>As one woman said, I just have to laugh when I think of her. <v Gay Luce>She's so beautiful. <v Gay Luce>And she heard a radio program like this once with Betty- I think Betty Berthard was <v Gay Luce>teaching meditation, and she began to meditate, and she cured all of her illnesses, <v Gay Luce>and she suddenly became a very healthy said 75 year old lady <v Gay Luce>and an artist. And now she is a model for others <v Gay Luce>of us who might have said, oh, it's not really know.

<v Gay Luce>Meditation really can't do very much for you. <v Gay Luce>And here she is- she'snwalking <v Gay Luce>two miles a day and teaching classes and happy with herself, with <v Gay Luce>her animals, where she is, and showing me that <v Gay Luce>to be alone, as an older woman, it's not a frightening thing. <v Gay Luce>It can be a wonderful thing. <v Gay Luce>Well, I think we also need is a network where people can exchange lifestyles. <v Gay Luce>I think one of the problems for all of us- I mean, we have an underground now among <v Gay Luce>younger people who exchange lifestyles. <v Gay Luce>We don't have a real network among older people so that they <v Gay Luce>can share with each other- <v Michael Toms>What do you mean by that? To go deeper with that? <v Gay Luce>I would say something like a magazine that the subscribers magazine <v Gay Luce>and everybody could write in and say what's going on with them? <v Gay Luce>So other people could know, what are that? <v Gay Luce>What's the range of possibilities for me when I need to be among these

<v Gay Luce>people at SAGE.I didn't have any contact with my grandparents. <v Gay Luce>They weren't alive when I was a little child and they weren't in this country. <v Gay Luce>I need them to show me what are the possibilities. <v Gay Luce>How am I going to live my life out? <v Gay Luce>And the better they do it, the better I'm going to do it. <v Gay Luce>I'm not- I'm not doing SAGE for them. <v Gay Luce>I'm doing it for me. I want to be really clear about that. <v Gay Luce>And I don't think most of us at SAGE are doing anything for someone else. <v Gay Luce>If we weren't getting nurtured by what we were doing- Believe me, there's enough problems <v Gay Luce>in doing it- we would have given up long ago. <v Gay Luce>There's such tremendous satisfaction because of what's coming back. <v Gay Luce>I mean, the people in the program are giving or opening <v Gay Luce>up to me the possibilities of my old age that I never saw before. <v Gay Luce>How far can I possibly go?

<v Michael Toms>We have some other phone calls. I want to take a call. <v Michael Toms>Hello, you're on the air. <v Caller 1>Hi [Host: Hi] I have a question for Gay. <v Caller 1>My parents are in the area. <v Caller 1>My children are 12 and 13. And they really are a good experience <v Caller 1>for my children to be with my parents. But I find that my <v Caller 1>father is a very angry, hostile man against the <v Caller 1>society more or less. He's an alcoholic. <v Caller 1>There's a lot of things to my children that I find very disagreeable. <v Caller 1>And sometimes it's very hard for me to be with and, yet, I know there's a <v Caller 1>lot of love there from me and from him. <v Caller 1>But I want to know how how hard one, <v Caller 1>how can I help him? I guess. <v Gay Luce>My instinct is just to see if you can suspend judgment and listen. <v Caller 1>For me to suspend? <v Gay Luce>Yes. Just for a little while. It'll take a little patience, but just suspend judgment and <v Gay Luce>listen and see what happens.

<v Gay Luce>One of the things that I've learned from our communication teaching at SAGE, <v Gay Luce>I never realized, but most of my life I've not listened. <v Gay Luce>I've been so ready to offer advice or to contradict <v Gay Luce>or to say how I feel about things that I've had a really hard time <v Gay Luce>just pulling back and emptying myself of all that stuff and letting <v Gay Luce>someone else really speak to me. <v Gay Luce>And whether I liked or disliked in my ordinary state of <v Gay Luce>mind, what they were saying didn't matter. <v Gay Luce>Just try to- try to reflect back to him what he's saying. <v Gay Luce>Becuase a lot of the times when I get angry, I know- now I'm giving you <v Gay Luce>reassurance and advice, but what a lot of times when I get angry, it's because I <v Gay Luce>don't feel people are hearing me. <v Gay Luce>I think they're offering me advice or they're- they're <v Gay Luce>coming out of themselves, and they're not having the time to let me be. <v Gay Luce>Just try it and see what happens.

<v Caller 1>It seems easier to do it when I'm with him alone, but when he's, um, lecturing <v Caller 1>to them on ideals that I find really quite offensive, I mean, <v Caller 1>there really isn't anybody good in the world as far as he's concerned. <v Caller 1>I guess my kids probably know that that's not <v Caller 1>true, but it's hard to hear him giving them <v Caller 1>this kind of advice, be suspect of everybody. <v Caller 1>Nobody will help you if you don't help yourself and things like this that-. <v Gay Luce>You might just simply state how you feel, and <v Gay Luce>then still give him the room and just reflect back what he's saying <v Gay Luce>and what you interpret the feelings are. Is that correct? <v Gay Luce>And state how you feel. <v Gay Luce>From yourself. Not- not-. <v Caller 1>Not judging. <v Gay Luce>Not judging and not offering an argument, not talking about abstractions, just what your <v Gay Luce>feelings are that makes you upset. <v Gay Luce>You know, he doesn't want to upset you. That's not his intention. <v Caller 1>No, I know that. Yeah.

<v Michael Toms>Thank you for your call. <v Michael Toms>Hello. You're on the air. <v Caller 2>Hello, It's an idea in various separate spiritual teachings <v Caller 2>that you catch wisdom with people. <v Caller 2>And I'm wondering if SAGE has worked with this idea at all, <v Caller 2>because it seems to me that so many of our elders <v Caller 2>hav- well, they have a whole lifetime of experience, and <v Caller 2>there must be wisdom, not only intellectual, but wisdom <v Caller 2>of the heart to tell them if they could care, if <v Caller 2>it could just be done by our being with them. <v Caller 2>Have you worked with that idea? <v Gay Luce>I think that's the idea on which I survive, because that's what nurtures <v Gay Luce>me at Sage. Being with people whose wisdom is a presence for <v Gay Luce>me and enriches my life and I'm really glad that you said it the way you did.

<v Gay Luce>I think a lot of people misunderstand when we say we want the wisdom of <v Gay Luce>older people and they draw back and resisted. <v Gay Luce>It just flashed on me when you when you made that statement that a lot of people draw <v Gay Luce>back and resist because they think that what it is that they're going to be offered <v Gay Luce>advice, that wisdom is some form of advice, which, <v Gay Luce>as you nicely stated, it isn't. <v Gay Luce>We can catch wisdom. It's catching. <v Gay Luce>To be in the presence of a person who is really inspired, <v Gay Luce>is ennobling to be in the presence of somebody who is really healing, is <v Gay Luce>healing to be in the presence of a wise person, even <v Gay Luce>if we never understand their words, their words don't make sense, <v Gay Luce>is catching it. <v Gay Luce>It gives us something for our lives. [Host: It's a nice contagion] Yeah, good contagion. <v Michael Toms>Thank you for your call. <v Caller 2>Thank you. <v Michael Toms>Let's take- we have time for one more phone call. <v Michael Toms>Hello. You're on the air.

<v Caller 3>Hello. Oh, I want to speak to Gay. <v Caller 3>[Michael Toms: She's here] I want to thank you for being on tonight. <v Caller 3>You come over beautifully. <v Caller 3>And my wife, Grace, was sort of a spiritual consultant, recommended <v Caller 3>you to me because she loves you. <v Caller 3>I want to extend my love to. <v Caller 3>And we'll have to get together and see what kind of help in some way. <v Caller 3>You came over kind of like of a message <v Caller 3>of rejoicing, and I'm sure thankful for it. <v Gay Luce>I'm thankful for you. And I want to thank you for your love and tell you <v Gay Luce>what a kind of bond I feel with people like you. <v Gay Luce>And if I came over like rejoicing, that's the answer to a prayer of mine. <v Caller 3>Well, you know, you're on a magnificent channel. <v Caller 3>New Dimension has brought us more friends than I can name. <v Caller 3>[laughter] So I want to thank them, too. <v Caller 3>[Host:You're welcome, Other speaker: So do I] Good night. <v Caller 3>

<v Michael Toms>Good night, thank you for being there. And thanks for your call. <v Michael Toms>Makes it all somehow, makes it worthwhile to have that <v Michael Toms>contact. <v Gay Luce>It certainly is. I'm speechless. <v Michael Toms>It's like how do you describe the experience of of what happens on this program? <v Michael Toms>People hear about this program, and they- I notice people think of it i's <v Michael Toms>a radio interview. It's an 'Oh, I know when a radio like- a radio interview all the <v Michael Toms>time.' But it's not that. <v Michael Toms>Just like you're talking about the SAGE Project. <v Michael Toms>How do you describe that experience? You can- you can only experience it. <v Michael Toms>It's- it's not the words. <v Michael Toms>It's the dynamic of what happens. <v Gay Luce>I think that what it is is that we talk and we think it's the words we're talking, <v Gay Luce>but the music is really not the words at all. <v Gay Luce>[Host: That's the dance.] Yeah.

<v Gay Luce>And that's the music that people remember. <v Gay Luce>That's like the carrier wave. <v Gay Luce>That's what I remember from my contact with Jeff so long ago. <v Gay Luce>I couldn't tell you one thing we said, but I do remember that full hour. <v Gay Luce>[pause] And that's <v Gay Luce>wonderful to know that on the radio, even though people can't see our faces, <v Gay Luce>and we can't see their faces and on the telephone, we are still managing <v Gay Luce>to get the music across. <v Michael Toms>Well, it's like I always say, Gay, in the beginning was the word not the picture. <v Michael Toms>[laughter]. <v Gay Luce>This has been a very rich experience. <v Michael Toms>Yes, for sure. <v Michael Toms>I want to tell you how you can get information about the SAGE Project once again. <v Michael Toms>And if you'd like to support the SAGE Project or find out <v Michael Toms>about their workshops, they have a seemingly wonderful conference coming up entitled <v Michael Toms>Successful Aging. Who Will You Be the Day You Die?

<v Michael Toms>The choice is yours and you can find out information about that by writing <v Michael Toms>to SAGE, 41 Tunnel Road, Berkeley, California <v Michael Toms>94705. <v Michael Toms>The dates of that conference are June 22nd, 23rd and 24th <v Michael Toms>is going to happen at UC Berkeley. <v Michael Toms>And I'm sure they'll be happy to send you a brochure or simply write to them. <v Michael Toms>There are other workshops and programs that SAGE has as well. <v Michael Toms>I'm sure they'll be happy to send you literature. <v Michael Toms>Once again, let me remind you, too, if you don't receive a <v Michael Toms>regular radio calendar from new dimensions, you can do that by writing to new dimensions. <v Michael Toms>Care of KQED, Radio 508th Street, San Francisco <v Michael Toms>94103. <v Michael Toms>And even if you already do receive a radio calendar, write to KQED Radio anyway <v Michael Toms>and tell them that you're out there listening. <v Michael Toms>We know you're there, but there are other people who also want to know you're there. <v Michael Toms>So you do write, and I'm hoping that I'll see <v Michael Toms>all of you next Saturday at 3:00.

<v Michael Toms>Jewels in the Lotus, a day with Stuart Emery. <v Michael Toms>Barbara Marx, Hubbard and Patricia Son, which New Dimensions are sponsoring as a benefit <v Michael Toms>for this program at Masonic Auditorium from 9 to 5. <v Michael Toms>Gay, it's been nice being with you tonight. <v Gay Luce>It's been really wonderful to be with you, and to be with all of you who are listening <v Gay Luce>and thankfully calling in. <v Michael Toms>And we'll have you come back sooner this time. <v Gay Luce>I would like that. <v Michael Toms>Don't stay away so long. My name is Michael Toms. <v Michael Toms> <v Jeff Mishlove>I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. <v Michael Toms>It was nice being with you tonight, Jeff. <v Jeff Mishlove>My pleasure. <v Michael Toms>And on behalf of the entire New Dimensions Radio family, we're all wishing you well. <v Michael Toms>[music]