BackStory; Lincoln the Lawyer: Abraham Lincoln’s Early Life and Career

which event for backstory survive about anonymous donor then they're shut down for the humanities and the joseph a robber cornell memorial foundation it's inhumane look on the back story the show that explains the history behind today's headlines and it airs during the podcast my colleague brian balogh to incriminate and colonize all historians and each week we explore the history of one topic that's been in the news we're going to start today in springfield illinois is summers in eighteen fifty nine injury members are being selected for a murder case pt quinn harrison just twenty two years old is on trial for the murder of free craft and stabbed after altercation in a local drug store the different lawyers took turns questioning prospects do you know the defendant or his family did you know that this edict or as the prosecution pointedly described greek the victim or his family

what is it you do to earn a living once even are you sober to which came the response you mean right now do you consider yourself a political man and you read about this case in the newspapers as the afternoon heat it up the jury box started to be filled basically what happened is the two of them had had been friends were no longer friends and they got into some sort of dispute it's unclear exactly what led to the dispute there a number of theories as to what led to it but regardless they start telling friends of the victim of his name was grete crafton starts telling friends you know that he's god he's going to beat up the defendant pt quinn harrison is great at hundreds names great difficulties is that the deputy harrison and peachy then tells a friend that if he tries to kill kill the stanley brothers along with david fisher has written

a new book on the craft and murder case it was a dramatic injury case two childhood friends and bald in a vicious fight that turned fatal and the defendant had a lawyer you might've heard if so pete she goes and borrows a knife from a friend of his to carry well what does pee chee is much more than brick and peach he was worried that a greek was gonna come after so pg carries this knife on him for days and then lo and behold petey is sitting in a i in a drugstore slash in a diner reading a paper with the proprietor greeks brother john crafting is already there greek walks in immediately walks up to pg and a fight ensues john crafting gets involved as well peach he eventually pulls out his knife stabs john craft and stabs greek craft in greek eventually dies three days later john craft and survives and becomes the key witness against pg in the trial and this was a self defense case so peach he was claiming that he

was in a reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death and that that's why you use the knife and of lincoln was co counsel for the defense in lincoln actually knew the family peaches family for a long time it for the reasons he took the case but also the victim had actually worked in his office said that it's pretty amazing and in that they allow the turns around a deathbed confession that forgiveness from greek to the grandfather of the guy in charge of killing of stuff happen that happens one of the best known people in the country at that time preacher was your car right right and your car wheels also longtime political rival of lincoln's be really despised each other and yet he became a critical witness for the defense meeting because he was such a well known creature he was asked to go in council a greek it was unclear if he was about to die but it's clearly you know not well and so nearly injured and in the context of that conversation

he allegedly says i forgive quinn has really was pt quinn hours i forgive quinn i brought this upon myself now in a self defense case i brought this upon myself you can have a better come at the map and they became a huge legal fight about whether that phrase should be admitted at the trial and i think that was the most important legal argument and in fact we can actually lost the argument at first and became enraged at the judge writer it we have firsthand descriptions from people who were there to talk about how angry lincoln was that he was almost climbing on the bench some people never seem so furious at the initial ruling avenge with a judge are allowed in their testing with no warning lincoln directed springing from his chair and demanding in a massive voice that rattled the court room walls your honor we need to see this through every

last bit of it days later when he wrote i shall never forget the scene lincoln had the crowd and a portion of the bar with him he was rocked to the point of the madness he was mad all over he was alternately furious and eloquent pursuing the court with broad facts and pointed inquiries in marked and rapid succession when he was finished judge royce glared at him you finished i am your honor thank you meaning lincoln had both the ability to focus on statutes and words and the importance of them but in the end he's in his real strengths as a lawyer it was his ability to bond with people that he knew how to talk to jurors in effect back then ahmed lawyers were permitted more to talk about personal experiences the commissioner who's with the jurors these days that would be

viewed as inappropriate in the context of an opening or closing arm but then that's one of the things that really help distinguish lincoln the lawyer lincoln walked to the jury box and took in all twelve of them with a glance he wished them afternoon and said hello to those fired for six men he knew by first name he was following the first rule of good criminal lawyer and he was building a relationship with the jury he was just made their neighbor the men who shared their values and their lives standing here hope and they could solve this sticky problem to gather years earlier lincoln had given practical advice about talking to a jury to young men he was mentoring talk to the jury as though your clients fate depends on every word you utter forget that you

had anyone to fall back on and you will do justice to yourself and your client what a nation is a lot i was kind of taken aback when i read your book that and then the next closing argument was three hours in a lot of high profile cases these days you know closing arguments can save many hours but there's no question that that van a lot of it was was using arm and was talking to the jurors because you'll remember that that these are people who are in a very discreet community this is springfield illinois and eating fifty nine and you have only white men of a certain age who are landowners so you have a limited pool of people many of them knew that offended or knew the victim or healing kit so so this sort of casual atmosphere when people ask me what is one of the biggest differences between courtrooms then and today and one of the biggest differences is that there were

just simply more casual that then of course in addition to have institutes in the court gen abrams is the chief legal affairs anchor for abc news is the author along with david fisher of lincoln's last trial the murder case that propelled him to the presidency today on backstory we're going to be looking at the legal career of the sixteenth president of the united states by bryon wiegand was the first or the last lawyer to hold the highest office will an effective in so many lawyers the white house that it sometimes seems as though the background the law is a requirement to be president but it's fair to say that the white house had never been home to a lawyer what we can before a backwoods lawyer who plied his trade in the circle around illinois representing pretty much anyone who needed what kind of cases did lincoln take on what's sort of like the was he and how did his decades

long legal career prepare him to run the country later in the show we talked to doris kearns goodwin about how lincoln lawyer transformed into regional leader but first let's find out a little more about the daily diet of legal cases that made up in space we just heard about the pivotal work while that helped propel lincoln of the white house building his resume as a lawyer extended far beyond defending accused killer's it would be easier to try to find it out of the case and he didn't want to get your belly up back in those days or years really didn't specializes role because they just needed a corner awarding away that's historian bryan dirk he's written about lincoln's law practice based on research from the lincoln legal papers project they've uncovered thousands of documents about lincoln's legal work dark says lincoln was a general practice lawyer who rarely litigated criminal cases about half of these cases were debt collection cases

will warriors back in those days that the place of what we have now with credit rating companies and skip tracers in the white can you go get a lawyer because you're dead and as we did you know point about half the talent but also did they also the probate to la divorce i was surprised the number divorce cases the handling of this a little bit of everything petty larceny odd to slander the slammer teaser blast by the oil we are iran so far as this issue for a shade brighter than ever due credit for dinner in order to win the slander and parsley cases lincoln had to cater to a different clientele each time he stepped into the court ron kirk says this was more versatile and clever and people might remember this whole all shocks rail splitter honest abe is saying i mean if you get the pretty deep into his practice has this great quote from one of his legal his lawyer friends and i forget what the us really be sort of be said is that people who missed lake in force a simpleton

would very soon wind up with their backs in the ditch is a really good way to put it you know you think you got this you know there's this backwards a heck of an edge than you know you just won the case was walking with a smile on his face like him which was very proud of that that he used that he knew that was the impression that people have really didn't care i didn't carry you as one case were disguised as they're better phrasing of the spices got us all we will be updating us what that means for the former route of the case and the case was having farmers and hassles the models they want to withdraw that used restaurant was a neck is involved as is now taking these cities so he knew how to manipulate his image to get what he needed so was he able to build a reputation of the stores he seems to sort of cobbled longer deal a small matters you know if you do go to the prices over the whole twenty five years when you

when we first started you know i think he struggled the first couple of years because he was partnered with with john todd stewart mary's marries a religion that and buster went to congress and kamel left lincoln and holding the bag so to speak and he was struggling and the stories are all these penny ante cases all that then as he gets more experienced in as he changes partners steven waldman and eventually delivered in his last quarter it gets bigger cases for more money and if you didn't have the like the middleweight eighteen fifties he's litigating some pretty lucrative stop especially for the war whereas they get better as it goes along some understanding is that the lawyers and through troubles circuit together there's sort of an living in the same boarding houses and eating together in traveling together is i write for so yeah so this war the most fun things for holiday you know because he is sitting near walters you know and just wait for visas to come here you're still can't do that you

know and i'm so here we were aware that it was a circus where you have like you know art ten or fifteen counties are only one judge kozinski cheaper wired just for every county so the judge would argue no saddle up twice a year usually they get like six or seven lawyers including lincoln and i would travel from county to county and they all all the people that showed he knew what a chord day was so short that night before next morning some former my walk over to wait and so on as julie gabaldon really hacked off among my body for a woman paid back or whatever and then like in the case and then in litigating in and they would move on and this was you know the backbone of much of his litigation and so he developed a good reputation among scholars oh yeah absolutely and i you know that they don't look upon was not a legal innovator you don't look at these cases and go whoa here is a fraud you're john marshall or something like that but it i concluded that he was respected by his fellow attorneys a great deal and he

must be respected by his clients because he don't want repeat business people to come back to him over and over thirty something that they trust him and they like him and you know as far as i know while he was a lawyer he was almost never accused of any legal criteria which violations or anything like that let's get given as a nickname jihad as iowan politics along the way or was he really submerged in the legal practical it well both you know reading some biography is that well the law was just his pastime that he really wanted to be in politics and while i think there's some truth to that i think that's overstating it i think he saw there was commissioned to get is the number of people as the willamette writing started me i think people's if everybody knows you know and that was the backbone of practising and moreover several of these lawyers and the judge especially david davis jimmy practiced with were instrumental in getting into nomination at city for the republican party so there's a lot of very very intimate relationship between what he did

as a lawyer and what is a politician well the most controversial trouser with his career is known as the mattson's slave case here lincoln represented the slave owner robert madsen against an enslaved family name the bryant's the message was from kentucky they had a farm in illinois and he'd offer bring the briars up to work on it to the bryant sue mattson for freedom because illinois was a free state lincoln and his legal team lost the case and the bryant's were freed the trial sometimes used to label lincoln the guy we noticed a great emancipate or as a hypocrite on slavery but dirk says it's more complicated than people the messages as a guy you know you use the warriors the thing first of all year or live over the course was five thousand cases it handful involve african americans and slavery that way to get many slaves related cases if you look at all the cases not just

the manson case they're all over the map i mean he also defended are several men who were charged with felonies for eating fugitive slaves you know we also try to use the northwest ordinance to get a slave free he did our legal work for his african american lawyer billy the border materials into the message is you can't look at these cases and say all there are real lincoln know many of the whole thing you know and what he what he believed was what i'm a lawyer my ethic is to represent my point to the best of my ability amy's story goes that the medicines slaves their lawyer lincoln and knew he was anti slavery came over genocide and this idea is that like it looks really sad any kind said you know i have already promised to defend them i can turn around drop this case now i think the absence of legal weapons i have to defend these people did best among legal ability and there is a legend that only can really threw the case idled but i think he did the best ticket is a lawyer and he has a professional obligation to do these things and that echoes many

ways what he said during the civil war which i have to obey the constitution even as we are trying to accomplish these other things yes absolutely and it i'd i don't think people actually appreciate how hams strong he was by the constitution in the key couldn't just get it because after all the union represented rule of law the rule of the constitution the whole argument was that the rebellion was the essence of anarchy if he abandons that he has very little moral standing especially with european powers like england and france are watching what's going on brian turk is a professor of history at anderson university he's also the author of lincoln the lawyer we'll hear more from brian later about what lincoln brought them this time the koran to the white house lincoln biographer doris kearns goodwin's new book

looks at exactly how we can transition from a small town lawyer to a national leader i sat down with her to discuss the lasting impact of lincoln's legal career on his leadership style and character was lincoln born to be a lawyer you know i think he was born to try to explain things that could be understood by people he was born to try to persuade people of things he had a gift for language i suppose that's the one inborn thing that you have in a gift for language and then you have i think he was born with empathy have another quality that could either be inborn are developed meaning he could understand other people's points of view you just did feel other people's feelings and those things happen i think in allowing him to become a really great lloyd became we forget it because he became president we forget the lawyer part of him you tell a really than the heartbreaking story of his father leaving his sister him and bare in a cabin with a dirt floor and serve on their own for months you think that empathy comes from having been so miserable as a child i

think there was something about lincoln's upbringing which was so difficult for many had only eleven months of full schooling and he's so desire to learn so that he had to scour the countryside for books in and get everything he could lay his hands on and there was a sense in which he had such an appreciation for it you know when he got a copy the king james bible or a sub stables he was so excited he couldn't eat he couldn't sleep there was that sense of knowing how special it was in his father kept taking votes away from him making him feel that somehow he was useless and and lazy for not working in the fields so he somehow began to understand what other people in his circumstances were feeling but he also wanted to escape from that so that was the imagination that allowed him to set aside some day if i worked really hard and if i can educate myself i won't be cutting rails i won't be shucking corn the rest of my life you know i think he shows it was a sort of generalized kind of direct june with ambition that he had i was not directed to the law very early it seems to me really i think the law was a way of moving upward

in that society where he was mean there there were routes for ambitious youths and i think one of them was politics and the other one was the law and i think in some ways you know politics almost came at first cause he's only twenty three years old when he decides to run for the state legislature in a little town of new salem where he only lived for six months it was an incredibly brave thing to do even talks about his ambition then he said every man has this peculiar ambition mine is to be esteemed of by my fellow man and to and to be worthy of that esteem which is an unusual thing for a young person to put it in those terms that something for the greater good rather than just for himself but his partner and friend who he had known in that area was a lawyer he helped lead law books to him and i think he saw that that would be what he can do they could mix with politics as it did so well in that time and still does today city think the law ever became a goal it's only in for him or was it always a way to get that steam that he acknowledged in his early days now that's a really interesting

question i mean i don't think it ever became something on its own although it really enjoyed it mean they said when he went on the circuit two things would happen when he was a mentor to the younger lawyers they said he was the one who always looked after them so he had already established a certain kind of reputation and he was willing to do everything he could to educate the younger lawyers who we always treated with kindness but even more importantly the lawyers when they would argue against one another during the day during the six week tours would stay the same taverns at night and when anyone new lincoln was a lap around they would come from miles around to hear him tell stories he had perfected the art of telling winding story tells annie was stand with his back against the fire and then he would unleash these tales one after the other and some of them were just simply a sub fables put in the form of a tale that he had loved so much as a child but some of them are actually just funny funny tales and he honed that gift of humor and storytelling that would be his lifesaver really during the later years of his presidency

and what he would always be able to use when he needed to break up a cabinet meeting or would quell some unease anxiety and then he was also still educating himself so i think there's no question that when he got to be a lawyer of more repute in illinois he was still moving toward politics cause he was trying to understand the anti slavery movement what was going on in politics and he would study the declaration of independence the constitution for this speech is that he would have to make and then that moved him much more easily into the political round so the legal background it was absolutely critical to his becoming a politician i'm sure an outright fully recognize as much will and it recognizes as much coverage of book the other thing i discovered was that married to that storytelling impulse was this really mostly logical approach which people might not think would go together with storytelling aiming to get to the point to be important business here to conduct that i think it shows that he was at the same time he was telling stories

working toward a purpose and he really brings this really was logic to everything he doesn't have to marry those two things people would say to him why do you tell so many stories and he said because people remember stories better than facts and figures somehow a story has a beginning a middle and an end but embedded in those stories that he would tell especially that had to do with the legal issues are the political issues facing the country would be a relentless logic that's why he studied you could actually study mathematics you know he was talking about the question of whether a person was black or white or tall or short he made a logical thing of why should we think that one person is better than the other suppose somebody is black suppose that he's blacker than a black suppose some he's white and black suppose it was just brilliant to watch that logical movement and he brought people with them i mean that was the key he said you have to start where the people are and you have to tell them where we came from where we are now and where were going so he would embed the arguments about slavery in the history of the country he would embed the prejudices that people had in certain kinds of

logical analysis and altogether but i think it was the force of the conviction of his person and how he came to believe so strongly in the need to not allow slavery to go to the western territories which was all that was really there in the fifties and then the legal degree also helped him the legal arguments when he was in the stephen douglas debates and that's no question that that catapulted him into the presidency you know those those were really legal arguments against one another six thousand people would be coming in which sometimes last sixty eight hours and it would be a logical argument against one another philosophy would be there history would be there and the audience has responded as if it was a sporting event i love listening to the audience reaction sometimes they would say hit him again him again harder harder as if they were part of the hold sporting event and they were kind of marathons do you have to have your ability as an audience member's rules the speaker could last all those hours right for the firs person might speak for an hour and forty five minutes and then there'd be a rebuttal for an hour forty five minutes and then there'd be another hour at another and at one point lincoln it was great in one

of the first big debates after douglas had taken as a substantial amount of time and he knew that his party within me running into dinner so we asked intimately of the groupies that would be all right if we break for dinner now no i know you'll come back because steven douglas will speak after me again or given extra time so all of the douglas people come back and i'll have my people here just was great was as conversation intimately connected to the people and in the debate audience and they did gotten to like eleven that nothing was extraordinary starting in the afternoon historian doris kearns goodwin is the author of many books most recently his leadership and turbulent times we'll hear more of my interview with her course the end of the show when she reflects on how lincoln's little background to find his leadership style in office sen thune know the end of it

wellington lawyer change the course of history he didn't do it alone our friend lindsey graham not the senator but the host of the american history tours podcast has a new audio drama podcast looks at how another lawyer edwin stanton who served in lincoln's cabinet fought to preserve lincolns legacy after his assassination lindsay thanks for join some backstory i'm excited her by your new podcast at sixty five what made you focus on it could withstand measure protagonist or for small thank you for having me and it's a pleasure and at sixty five is about a country in turmoil after lincoln's assassination and edwin stanton lincoln's adversary turned ally is a character who steps up and tries to take control of a reeling and wounded nation he is an incredibly exasperating historical figure he is simultaneously heroic and strong and fiercely intelligent but he's also at times morally

dubious that stephen walters the co writer of taking sixty five is a bit of a dick cheney figure right he he sort of assumes power that really isn't he is in the name of keeping the country together he makes a really difficult choices he declares martial law he presides over the largest manhunt in united states history to bring john wilkes booth than his accomplices to the justice and while state and perhaps seeks justice through unsavory means steven walters imagines the stands loyalty to his deceased president is genuine and enduring stanton stands up in front of the jews who've washington a man who's not that comfortable giving speeches in yemen in this version of him that i've created a ridicule he says i thought mr lincoln a dreadful litigator are useless man in an even bigger flow it was not the first time i've done in my career that i was wrong and it would not be the last time i would underestimate mr lincoln or

no job of food a day because when she represents did not meet his actions of spotify as a rebellion all across the south and you know for those who opposed the cause of liberty which mr lincoln gave his life the battle between the states is over what the war for the soul of our nation is just beginning mr marsalis and we're just really himself if ever the destruction of our nation must spring up amongst us it cannot come from abroad it destruction beyond we must also be its author and finish it he does you've done a great job they're of capturing stanton's commitment

to lincoln's legacy and the emotions of that moment when that the south is still chaotic and that's walter stahr he's the author of the book stands in lincolns or secretary star says that stanton a lincoln share similar operating even if they became ideological opposites that is roughly contemporary lincoln is born in eighteen fourteen in ohio so like lincoln a midwesterner like lincoln he knows poverty in his youth his father died when he was quite young and left a widow and no money on i like lincoln or your hand like lincoln active in politics but as you mentioned an adversary where is lincoln was a staunch week stanton was a staunch democrat stayed in was prolific and had a lot of cases one case that i am but fascinated by and really hope to another podcast called american scandal and this this is perfect for for that show i know i know we're going to go into daniel's the goals yes

tell us about him his trial what he is accused of and how edwin stanton came to his rescue so again you'll set goals before the civil war was a member of congress he was seen as kind of a protege of the democratic president james buchanan and one fine day in lafayette square in washington dc in broad daylight he pulled the pistol and shot and killed his wife's lover who was at the time the district attorney for the district of columbia he was the oj simpson trial of its age each it was covered in excruciating detail and not just the dc papers but the new york papers with the philadelphia papers the courtroom was packed it's one of the first if not the first case in which a kind of temporary insanity defense was run and stanton wouldn't help to have that to be

his key contribution of ways as you can read it in the record on is what i call the family defense he gave a long speech which quoted more from the bible a court case is talking about how the sanctity of the family and basically argued that in shooting his wife's lover and sickles was merely defending himself and his family when i say it it sounds sort of weak and pathetic but it must've been affective because in less than an hour the jury acquitted circles sort of carry out of the court room by the cheering crowd to freedom lincoln lawyer and stanton moore did cross paths during a patent case in cincinnati at this point stand was already a celebrated successful lawyer but lincoln was still just a small town circuit attorney and whilst are cautions that it may be apocryphal according to some accounts states' performance at the trial in cincinnati

had a lasting impact on lincoln lincoln supposedly told a friend that he was so impressed by stanton's closing argument he had it's never seen anything so finished and elaborated that he intended to go home to illinois to study law sustained in the lawyers were getting a picture of us or who has driven obstinate and ending likes to win those sound like qualities that might have brought him into politics unlike lincoln's stanton is not a candidate and stanton is more of a writing letters is organizing rallies more of a back room rather than the candidate is this a reason why lincoln brings him into his cabinet that's part of it but he actually wanted a democrat and he wanted to sort of sand of the signal that this was

not just a republican war remember that lincoln is elected less than forty percent of the popular vote he wants it possible to unite as many people as he can in the north behind the war and then stand and had a reputation as a man who worked incredibly hard and effectively and that is what lincoln felt he needed in the war department so we have two lawyers both prosecuting the war how did they differ and their leadership in this time lincoln famously a soft touch for widows and orphans and just ordinary folks and stanton poem famously short temper or rude dictatorial you could refer its orders a good cop bad cop routine in which lincoln plays the good cop oh i understand but you'll have to talk to stanton and stanton happily playing the role of the bad cop no sorry they can't be done next person but for

all their differences stanton in lincolnshire have common lawyer li commitment to facts precision and recently stanton is drafting a program for this raising of the flag in charleston which they want to do exactly four years after the flag was lowered at fort sumter it so he says a draft of the program to lincoln and lincoln brides back and says you know it looks fine except you got the date wrong because i'm pretty sure the day it was one day before what you've got and stanton goes back by telegraph to lincoln and says well i understand that that's when the news came that fort sumter would surrender but the actual surrender ceremony takes place on the next day you know nobody but to lawyers and the right is really is about to surrender to grant would take time to debate whether something occurred on the fourteenth or fifteenth of april the two lawyers are willing to spend a little bit of

time and it's a friendly discussion but a little bit of time to get the details right what extent do you think stanton really is was freefall to lincoln him in his prosecution of the reconstruction i'll speak up for him in one sense on a very faithful man and lincoln cent were both very concerned about the fate of blacks in the south on the lincoln however was also very concerned to bring back into the fold our southern whites on and indeed just a couple days before lincoln's death there's there's tension and disagreement between lincoln and stanton over this issue and he felt very strongly throughout his time in the war department that the southern resistance to hunter of occupation and reconstruction was a form of continuation of the southern side of the savoy we're going to live up to lincolns

legacy the union says the north had to reconstruct the south into a new society not merely allow southern whites to kind of re impose slavery by another name on southern blacks it's precisely this lingering question what lincoln could have achieved through reconstruction and what it became in his absence but influenced even walters writing it at sixty five we have some clues we have some ideas but we don't actually know because he was taking for his time i think stan's and felt that it was up to him to to carry forward the core principles of lincoln's presidency into reconstruction in many cases irrespective of what we can actually what it is is very strange that india aftermath of a rebellion that's a spirit of generosity in a spirit of unification which i think is well intentioned on the part of the union and certainly won't issue on the part of some southerners

that leads to a situation where the antebellum an agricultural white power structure is unique be put back into place and within years of the civil war the officials from the south who were confederate officers confederate government leaders including the vice president of the confederacy are seated in congress there's tension between the rights of the states and the rights of union rights the federal government really are are brought to bear and the reconstruction era and it's the freedom and the four million freed slaves in the south who are trying to get your take their rightful seat at the at the table of democracy who suffered the most in the midst of this the turmoil after the war the former small town lawyer who could connect with anyone still believed he could appeal to the nation's better angels that he can bring the country together to heal but stanton shrewd successful and always a lawyer believe that the union's victory could only

be fully realize with the full force of the unforgiving an uncompromising justice walter star is author of the book stare at lincoln's war secretary now out in paperback stephen walters is the co writer of the upcoming audio drama at sixty five which premieres on december third on stitcher premium i'm lindsey graham host of american history tours for this episode we've talked about abraham lincoln's clients and trials in the koran but as you may have heard when can a lawyer and eventually became the lincoln the president so what's the link between these two occupations of the great emancipation are earlier we heard from scholar brian dark about

lincoln's law practice also spoke with dirk about what lincoln took from his days as a lawyer to the presidency there's several things first of all i think we can learn how to pitch his speech to ordinary people because when he's when he's when he's talking to a jury he's the box full of farmers you know i told his order will probably heard any said we're talking to the jury domain to hi billy aim low because the people apart and understand you anyways people downloaded she will make the admission and i think they gave him that that bad economy of language his ability to say along with a few words that he had a treaty quickly to a jury and get an idea across so there's that and there also been a conflict resolution you know i mean he says and self lawyers are at their best when they get people to negotiate their problems they don't go to a court room is always working with his cabinet or to compromise is to find middle ground for solutions something is

excellent and i think you were in this one he's a warrior it's interesting how sometimes looking back we think that that made mark lincoln this week in some ways that i believe that that's really his strength and i think what one crisis averted as worth two solid enough power it absolutely lies but when you look at the strong willed difficult people that he had to work with jefferson davis who couldn't work with johnson johnston for example because it is hated each other you know whereas looking to really get lincoln to work out a relationship and say they did email likely it's ok let's just do your job you know and i think because from the law practice of you don't get caught up in personalities in all of this on the literature a modern lawyers and mortar lawyers are told focus on the solution to the problem though focus on whether you like the point or not i think we can learn to that as well you contrasted image everson davis could you sustain that will that because they do seem to be real different sides of the leadership kohring and eddie you describe some of the us

to lincoln's law practice yeah absolutely anyone really it i go i got alone imply any on you know an insidious relationship between like whitetail lincoln was light years ahead of day was it david autor the historian once said you know if i did recently demonstrated places the southward of warner independent thorough don't think of street is not a vegas was not a bad president he had a lot of difficulties and yet it's false the problem with james compared to lincoln was lincoln davis tended to believe in a brotherhood in a fraternity he had to be your friend he i mean he stuck with these really awful generals are braxton bragg way past one reason is china white a lincoln never done that and i think i think that's a big contrast that that davis could have learned from criticizing green is presented as a west point or believe in the brotherhood of the army for turkey and i kind of think and sometimes i got his way so i think the lincoln would appreciate the

fact that i would do it now and not out of any sense of conviction that sense of responsibility become the prosecuting attorney in this case so this all sounds great right is it is there a downside to his lawyer li background when he was present only you could argue i suppose that maybe you try to negotiate a little bit much during the war i you know are the way that it is our response to the wade davis plan his ten percent plan for reconstruction have a very very mild our planet we don't know if he would have stuck their placards or she dies right after that but yeah you could argue that isn't his desire to negotiate with people in good faith and his assumption that everybody wanted to negotiate in good faith might've really been a difficult earlier i referred to lincoln buys famous nickname the great emancipate are now of course that's because of his landmark executive order the emancipation proclamation well doris kearns goodwin says the draft of the

proclamation was rooted in lincoln's legal expertise in the summer of eighteen sixty two when the peninsular campaign had gone so badly and he knew he said that we were at the end of our rope and something had to change and he had been visiting the troops and the active battlefield and he begun to see that the confederates were getting an enormous advantage military advantage of being able to use the slaves on their side and he knew that he had no legal way no constitutional way to end slavery unless he could make it something that was a military necessity and then as commander in chief he would have the power to say if we free gifts lives they will no longer have the same benefit to the south it will help the north military necessity allows me to do this so he went to the soldiers home which was three miles from the white house that summer too really think through the arguments think of two legally because that's really what he was trying to do do i have the power to issue this executive order an e filing came to the decision that he could do it on the ground a military necessity so when he wrote the emancipation proclamation it wasn't

intended to be a fiery document to use that gift of language that he could use so brilliantly in the gettysburg address so the second inaugural it was intended to make the case the case legally that he had the power to do this and that's true would have said or said it just it was simply a legal document really telling the country this is what we're doing of course once it was issued however people understood what it meant that all of a sudden in one document you know hundreds of years of slavery would be undone that promised a future without slavery had promised to take the sin of slavery out of our country a proclamation by abraham lincoln president of the united states of america and commander in chief of the army and navy thereof do hereby proclaim that on the first day of january in the year about lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty three all persons held as slaves with in any state or designated part of the state the people aware of shell then be in rebellion

against the united states shall be then vince forward and four ever free and it was enormous rejoicing on the part of the people who are anti slavery and of course the blacks as well and it was enormous trepidation in the north even this was in the south or legislatures were passing on resolutions against it fearing that we were only fighting for the union and not for slavery as well but lincoln understood timing he realized then that the timing was right that the war had reached an age where something had to be done he realized that the soldiers had reached a point where they knew they needed help and before that only three in ten were fighting for slavery the rest only for union but he understood the timing so well because he saw ordinary people every morning cause you never forgot the popular assembly from which he had come so it was finally the right timing on january eighteen sixty three and then when he signed that proclamation and he put his own stamp on it by saying to his best friend who came to his side you know perhaps in this proclamation you know my fondest dream of being remembered

after i've lived will be realized but you're so right that the legal influence became so important and because once the war was i was at the point where was going to be won he knew we needed to put the emancipation proclamation and more strong legal grounds and that's why he won for the thirteenth amendment because once the war was over then the military necessity would be there anymore and he would need some sort of deeper foundation in the form of an amendment and then that became the lasting thing he gave to the country even though it didn't fully pass until after he died a theme of your book on leadership is that great leaders are made by great trials head lincoln experienced anything as a lawyer you think that prepared him for some huge challenges but as president i suppose you know when you're a lawyer youre going to lose cases inevitably end you're going to win cases and i think what he experienced throughout his life by going through trials by failure on i think definitely prepared for the presidency even in that first race when he ran for new salem

and annie didn't lose as you pointed out and that he wins the next time around when he lost the first race he said you know i didn't i don't think i probably would have a great chance here but i've been so familiar with disappointment i won't be too sugary and if the voters in the good ways and do not select me but then he said but i will try again if i lose in fact i think nobody try five or six times i get so humiliated and dejected after six times i promise you i won't run again citing inevitably when youre trying cases you you learn what ways you learn how to persuade people you get out dale and some of those cases and even in just gone in and learn from the mistakes mean that was what was so key to lincoln he liked to say as long as i could learn from my mistakes i could believe i'm smart today than i was yesterday but he also learned the camaraderie of a working with a team by going around the county courthouses and he built a team that way in the white house that were different from him at different points of you with rifles i might even think

about that as a title for him but i was so important is he knew that they were different factions in the country that night when he was elected he couldn't sleep so he made that decision to put these three chief rivals into his cabinet each one of those more educated and more celebrate each one thought he should be president is that of abraham lincoln and yet somehow he was able to even though their opinion still different and when to do the emancipation if to do the emancipation when he finally made the decision none of them spoke out against it even if they still had private reservations which showed that he had created a team with a shared sense of purpose i think you identify resilience as the key characteristic of a great leader and i don't think anybody had more occasion to try that a virtue out and did abraham lincoln as president absolutely and that resilience again is going to prove so important when he gets into the presidency i mean the many times when the union was really losing the war and when whole path to come really from within

within the country itself and within lincoln and then go to that next battle and then go to that next how you know it did an enemy we keep thinking that maybe gettysburg had solved it but even by the summer of eighteen sixty four when grant was stuck in the east and hundreds of thousands were dead the spirit of the north was really at a very low morale so much so that the political bigwigs and republican party told lincoln you're not win this election there's no way you'll win in november sixty four unless you're willing to have the south come to the peace table and make a compromise on emancipation and that's the moment when that conviction relief comes in when the courage comes in and i said i'd be damned in time eternity if i ever wrote turned the black warriors back into slavery blacks enjoying the army at that point they go in this council it's certain that the war the election would be lost but then of course atlanta happens in the home note of the north changes and he does win the election but he wins it with union and emancipation intact so that kind of resilience and

perseverance and conviction and keeping his word those are the qualities that was so strong inside of him doris kearns goodwin's latest book is called leadership and turbulent times we also heard from scholar brian burke author of the book oh yeah the president would love to hear from you will find the setbacks already a dot org or send an email to back story of virginia that you do you may follow us on facebook and twitter at backstory radio whatever you do don't be a stranger back stories produced at virginia humanity's major supporter thought about anonymous donor the national

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