¡Colores!; Interview with Rina Swentzell Part 1

4.1kg 4.1kg 4.1kg 4.1kg 4.1kg 4.1kg 5.2kg Q. How do you see a probable view door as a work of architecture in peace and private?

K. Well, that's a, that's a terrific question because it is obvious and it's an object that is. You can see it as an object that's just warm as form is beautiful, the texture is wonderful and the setting… It's just a, what can you say, a work of art? It's just a beautiful place of the D shape form, the round and the straight front, the round and the back and the straight front, and the cliffs behind it. The colors of the sandstone, because the stones are made out of the color of the sandstone, that's right in the back of it, the canyon floor. There's a unity in the whole thing.

It's beautiful because there's a sense of things coming together within it, color, texture, form, the whole thing. So, what do you think is important about, if you're looking at it as a single building? It is important because it is a very significant part of a whole system, of a whole unit, that a group of people were about at one time, between around the ten hundreds or so. So, it is an important part of that, of a whole regional system. And although it is just one of the many, many buildings that are out there in that very arid place, a place where they were farming, they were living there, and they were creating beautiful things in the desert.

And a place that doesn't get much rain, there were apparently people who were farming close by, and I, as far as research shows, there weren't many people living in the buildings themselves, but I do think that, that as the years progressed from the time that it was a small structure of a few buildings that didn't have the kind of sophistication that the walls later had, or the form wasn't completely finished. There were people who were living there, who was their home, for a while. And as the generations went by, they actually began to build onto it, and there was a sense that, wow, hundreds of years went by, and it started with just a few little rooms,

and people who would not have known each other directly connected genetically, but came up with this, and kept growing in such a way that it formed a complete unit, and made a few, you know, the state that it was became very exciting. And, and for, as part of the whole, that whole chocolate system, probably beneath those importance is because of it, beautiful elegance, you know, it has such, it has such elegance about it, and the fact that it wasn't planned all at once makes it even more exciting for me, because that it means that there was something else that was working there, just intelligence, or a planning power. There was a consciousness of what was happening that passed from one generation to the other, and it's as if somebody started a piece of artwork,

and you expanded on it in a way that made it even more so, more, you know, year after year, it became even more, more of this place that we know as, as probably dope. Can I pause? Real composition. Yeah. So was, so was bonito composition. Oh, so that's, that's an interesting point, because I feel like there's a story in architecture. I feel like what people are thinking and what people are doing just becomes inherent in the way they live, and so then architecture kind of is an extension of that. I think we all have sensibilities, is that what you would say, is that we're all conscious of one another and of the flow of the clouds, and of the wind and the sun, and we express that,

and if people live together, century after century, I think that they, that they transfer that consciousness or that sensitivity of patterns, of forms of shapes from one generation to another, and we do that in the public world here. We're pretty consistent or used to be until a few years ago, consistent with how we build our, build our houses, and how we did things, how we moved even, you know, even how one moves their, their body is a, is a product of, of your relationship with everything else around you and other people. How do you think we build where we do, like if you look at Pueblo to this place? I think that they, I think they saw challenge, and I, but I think the greatest thing that they saw was the possibility of connection with the, with the place, with the sky,

with those wonderful cliffs, the colors there, I think they came with that, with a kind of sense of, or they, they were in and out of there, they didn't come as a group, they were in and out of there, feeling those rocks and feeling, even the temperature can get exhilarating sometimes, it's just like, wow, there's nothing quite like, like being chocolate on 105 degrees in, and no water anywhere inside, and then the clouds start coming out from behind the cliffs, and it is so, it's like, wow, you know, we're, we're going to see something, and feel something pretty amazing, and the clouds, the interplay of the clouds and those cliffs, those red cliffs, the blue sky, they, sandstone, it's just magnificent, the forms, the forms of the clouds, the cliffs. Do you think that they were looking at anything in their environment

that they had to build there? Oh yes, they were looking at the whole thing, they were, they were, they were part of it, and then just appreciate, I think they really could appreciate, appreciate the beauty of the place, as harsh as it is, they, they were exquisite, and it's exquisite, and that's why I think that, that the form of Pablo Bonito is just so elegant, because there's a, there's a real distinctive elegance about it. Well, it seems like they, I mean, with what you say, about what they were looking, you're standing in place, and you look, and you notice the things around you, and like we talked about earlier, like the, a certain natural geological structure, or like you're saying the clouds, like even, it seems like sometimes a quiver was just moved over, just a little bit to accommodate that sense of play, because you talk about what that is,

that why, why being in a certain place, or how that can change, or what's my question like? Well, like there might be a mesa in front of you, and you're looking at where a wall would go relative to where the lines of the, of the cliffs are, and how that, that, the line of the mesa itself is, is affecting your decision about where to put the, where to put this round structure of the quiver, as it were, and then beyond that are the, the far mountains, and then beyond that are the clouds, and I think it was just lining up things to make it feel right. I don't know that there was any, I don't think there were calculations there, but it was operating off of a sense of aesthetics, saying, no, this, no, that doesn't feel good,

but this feels, move it over a little bit, and it feels good. That's really interesting, because, I mean, if you think down into your, into yourself, and I feel the ground where you're standing, there's almost some kind of symmetry maybe that could happen naturally. I think it's very natural, I guess. I think if we, if we allow ourselves, even a little bit to, to feel where we are, and feel the kind of relationships in terms of that line with this line, that, that form with this form, myself within it, I think we, I think we come up with some pretty nice stuff. Yeah, and so you think about like, you know, the fact that, like, coincidence, but like, there's, there's the road that goes, do, nor, and there's a building in a road, even, there's like, do, self,

and there's buildings like, do, east, and do, west, and then some of the other buildings seem to have walls like a line with moon cycles, like there's, and then there's the, the piece that's like way up in Colorado by Chimney Rock, that, it's like, taps in, apparently, to that 18.6-year cycle, and then the same place at the same time that doesn't happen for like a long time, but it seems like they were very conscious of that. I think they were very conscious of it after, day after day, night after night, year after year, watching the drama and the sky happening, watching the drama and the land happening, and seeing what the points are around you. Chimney Rock is an amazing place, where you do have those fires, and the moon comes up right between them,

you know, at the time that modern people say, 18.6, but we didn't have those that kind of numbering system at the time, and so it was, that was all happening at a different level of consciousness. I think things were remembered. I think we remembered a lot more of actual happenings than relying on numbers that we do now, yeah, and I don't know the degrees that front wall of Poe Bonito now is talked about in terms of degrees to this and that and the other, but it was just, there was a lot of feeling rightness about it. The sun comes up there, of course it does, and this line feels like, yes, we're going to catch the energy right here, right at this point,

and we know this is how it happens. That's really interesting, yeah. Right, so, you know, to look at that question again, like how is the story of those, the people's lives inherent in that architecture? I think it's absolutely in there. Yeah. What is in there? I'm sorry, could you give it? The people's lives, people's fingers, people's touches, or people's minds, people's emotions are all in it. You know, you haul rock from, on top of the cliffs all the way down, and you cut them up, and you've cut your finger in the meantime, and your kids are screaming, and you get in very hot and sweaty. You know what you're doing, and you're doing this. Every day, the number of man-hours in that place, just bonito alone, not all the other charcoal sides is,

just incredible. Bringing the logs in from Truska Mountains, or wherever, far away, 40 some miles away. There's a lot of you, me, that goes into it when you're trucking things around like that. When you build your own house, you know every single part of how it works, and how that, and remember everything about it that happened. And those people are there with all the sensitivities, all their sense of proportion, the sense of shape, all the emotions that go over there. It's all there. What we think about the world is all encoded in those walls. The material plays a part in how it was built. Yes, you know the walking runder, the beautiful orange, orange, reddish,

yellowish sandstone laying around, with lines in it, and they create a kind of texture in those walls, but sometimes I think those walls were covered, which is interesting. And then you get mud walls like we have here, but the touching of those rocks and looking at them to make a veneer wall, just that in itself is incredible, because those veneer walls are what, four or five feet wide, and lots of people, who know how to cut and shape the rock, and then all the other people need it to just haul in the rock to put in between two veneer walls. That's pretty fantastic. Or even a single double wall. And I think a lot of the work,

there was a lot of women and children power in there as well, hauling, carrying, and just living with it, and how it was all organized is a difficult one, because I don't think it was organized in the same way that we would have a construction organized. There were probably people who just had an instinctual know-how about how to build, how to put up the stones one on top of the other, other people who knew instinctively how to shape the stone, and probably very much like the way cathedrals were done in a way too. Or the way we built this house, which was my daughter comes in, because she can lay the doby blocks very well, so she does. Meantime without any, there was really nobody telling us what to do.

She started laying out the brick. The grandson starts mixing up mud for her, giving it to her. Other people were carrying. Those who couldn't do either were carrying things around. And I think there was very much that, of course, that sort of thing. There wasn't a specialized, I think, as people would like to make it out to be, in some parts of the world it was. There's a lot of connection that's claimed between Chaco and Central America, where you have those huge pyramids, and then you go in further to Peru, and you have those blocks of stone that are as big as, but you're the one I am. And they're lifting those things up. People are amazing with what they can do. They're just simply incredible.

Not a crack between rocks. There was mortar used in Chaco. A lot of mud used, as well as stone, and the wood, primarily stone, mud, wood, just typical of southwest materials. But there are also materials that anybody living in their area would know how to use. So that's what they did. Look at the southwest. You go a few hundred yards anywhere. There's a site there. There's another opposite direction. There's another site there. Why did that happen? The place, like where you are, when you're building something, or where you're living. There's the roads. There's the mountains in front. And there's the idea that maybe it's, I don't know if there's temple architecture happening with that.

Or, I mean, I think it was probably a multi-use building. But the roads are interesting because they're not roads that we would think of as roads. I mean, maybe they're the beginning of a road that goes somewhere just to give you the direction of where, or just a connection place. You know, the roads are interesting because, you know, in Peru, you have those wonderful roads that just go off towards this way. And they cross themselves. They go off this way. And there are figures drawn on the land that are bigger than you can see from on the ground. And there's no reason to think that, excuse me, sorry. There's no reason to think that there was no connection between peoples on this continent.

And people, archaeologists, like Steve Lixon, firmly believes that Chaco is an offshoot of Central America. And if that's the case, you know, all the pyramid forms that you get and the jungles of Central America, also in Peru area, there was connection there. There's no doubt about movement. One of the big things about what we got in terms of philosophy, modern, is that it is about, the world is about movement. And we get that because we're always emulating clouds. Clouds are in constant motion. They're constantly changing. They're always going from here to there, disappearing altogether.

And I believe that the continent as a whole had the people on this whole continent had the idea that our relationship with the natural world, with the sky, with the earth, with land forms was the most important thing that there is to do. And, you know, and then not even that they might have had contact with those people. But there seems to be some energy that we don't always acknowledge like different people making a scientific discovery way across the world. And at that same moment, somebody else making the same conclusion somewhere else. There's a simultaneity in the world that I think we were at the time that we needed to acknowledge

that we are today. We're so focused on objects, materialness in this time of human life. But I think there was much more knowing of different levels of our consciousness and awareness than we have now. And certainly people were seeing the movement going on. And so those influences, without any doubt, I think, are all there in Chaco, for instance. And people want to make those roads functional. I don't think the Chaco roads are necessarily functional. They could have been. And that's okay. People can walk on them. But what if they were made in order to just make it, just feel like no. Now we know which way that cloud went.

Let's go do this. Let's go mark that place. Or hey, see that hill up there? The one that we go during a special time of the year? Let's point out that direction. Oh, there's north. That's where the sun comes. Oh, that's where winter is. It's wherever. There's just all sorts of reasons for making a road that goes nowhere. Like the one the north road that drops down into a canyon. And then there is a beautiful canyon. And beautiful forms down there. Isn't that enough? I mean, we're looking at beauty and form and something feeling right. And into that beautiful landscape down there. Isn't that enough? Yeah. It is enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, kind of looking at how then. So some people have said that with Pueblo Bounito kind of being where those road maybe go from to Marcos those landscape or those places of connection there. If those are not coming to Pueblo Bounito or going away from Pueblo Bounito, do you think there's a significance? Oh, yes. There was also a very significant idea. Especially in the... Well, certainly it's very alive and strong in the Pueblo Bounito. We're as centers. There are centers. And that comes from, you know, the idea that every one of us is a center. And in Tewa, the language I speak from Santa Clara,

the word for village or the Pueblo place is a wing, which means where I stand. And any... Every village is an wing is where I stand. I am the center. And around me are the house blocks that open space, the hills, the mountains. I am always at the center wherever I stand. Center places were very, very important. It was a very important concept. And I think Chaco was a Pueblo Bounito. He played with that idea as well. Center places, you know. Here we are at the center. And things radiate out from us. They do. Our energy flows that way. Energy goes that way. Anger goes that way, you know. And it's all... It's all here. The thing is that we don't...

We, you know, in that old way of thinking we don't go anywhere. We remain here within the earth. And it is that earth connectedness, that sky connectedness. And some cultures focus more in the sky and the movement there. We were aware of it, but always, always knowing that we were part of the earth, that we were born of the earth. And, you know, in those villages we have center places from which we came, out of which we came. And I... And, certainly, Chaco, Pueblo, we need all of those villages at place at the what we call the non-sipu or the earth, earth-belly root place. And that's that connection into the earth. So as you were always playing

the relationship between earth and sky, clouds, and us emulating, what we see going on around it. It's all right here. Oh, yes. You see, here I am, the center. I look around me 360 degrees in any direction here in the southwest, because we're so beautiful colors at our feet. But anywhere I look around, there's the 360 degree horizon. You know, it's all right there. There's a big circle right there. And how could I not use that form for what I create? It's very natural, too. Very natural. So, you're saying that that center is ever present

to whatever you are. We carry our centers around with us, and the land forms out there may change, but we're always at the center, but doesn't exclude anybody else's center. You know, and that was that thing. That's an incredible thing about it. You're a center. I'm a center. And we each have eyes to see the world with. It might be slightly different, but it's very different. What if we... All valid. If we get closer to get... I don't know if... Because the Kivas, there's a lot of Kivas, and it seems like you're saying the circles, and so that makes me think of the Kivas. Of course. Of course. So, what about placement of an actual building that's permanent matter? Yes, it does matter. It's emulating the organization of the world we live in. Those Kivas structures, those villages themselves,

are at the... contain the center, and are the center at once. We have no exclusiveness in that sense of if I'm the center, you can't be. So, we can have multiple centers right in the same village. There are many of them, and people acknowledge, here is the actual center going into the underworld, and connecting the sky, and that dark place under there. And it can happen right here, in this room, but it can be happening, oh, actually sometimes overlapping. Some of those Kivas actually overlapped each other, and then there were others underneath that I got buried. But each one of them, as legitimately, a center, and containing and being the center at once. Do you think that, is that okay? Oh, yes, it's perfect when you use your hands.

So, could you say how Pueblo Bonito has meaning to people now? I think for a lot of people, including Pueblo people, modern Pueblo people, is that there's a, it's like a reminder of what we used to know, and how we used to live, and how we, what we used to acknowledge in the world that we don't anymore. There are all of those sites, and Pueblo Bonito, just being one of them, just happens to be very beautiful and exquisite, but you go to any of those sites, and they are reminders that there are centers everywhere, and that we also live within, we live in the bowl, and we are, we are part of a natural organization, we are part of a natural structure,

structure of nature. What is the importance of remembering now? Remembering, I think, is helps to center each of us, and we talk about needing to be okay in the world. You know, I find it difficult to be centered within myself, when I'm driving down the road, people honking at me, and I'm going 70 miles an hour in, and there's another car that just passed me, and it scares me to death, you know, and it's a difficult world to live in, but if you were stepping on the ground, there was no, you know, no transportation but feet, and if you're touching the ground every time you took a step, you were aware of where you were, and if you didn't have air conditioning, you were also aware of that. It's just a very different world that will live in, and I think we're all forgetting

that there was this magical place that had many, many levels to it, many things going on at once, that it was not just human center, that's not just a human center. Rabbit has a center. Those rocks, you know, each one of those stones have a center. Each one of those key was at a center. And why is it in poetry, remember that? It's important to remember that because we don't get too exclusive then. We don't think that even though I carry the center, I am not the only center. I'm not the only thing. I don't exclude everybody else. I don't have to go fight you in order to have territory. You know, the ownership of land was, was a big thing that came in. And if you don't think you owned the place, then you can be in it in a different way. And I think we tend to think, oh, I owned this place.

I can do whatever I want with it. The sky's going to be there forever. The sun's going to come up every day. Oh, no, it's not. You know, you've got to go give it some energy. Tows people still run once a year to give the sun energy, to give their human, because the sun needs human energy. And so they run back and forth in order to create energy to give the sun to keep, for it to keep doing its cycle. There was one question in the middle of it, kind of, when the refrigerator came on, we were talking about how, that where you're standing, but you talked about being in that place and they're not being some, like, perfect little calculation. I mean, because even that wall, like, that you're looking at that,

you're looking at the sun. It's not a perfect place. No. It's not exact. So you're talking about not using calculations. And then there's the spiral. Do you think there were ways of recognizing or remembering the cycles, like, were they writing some things down, or do you think that spiral has any use that's connected? It's so, you know, the spiral, the spiral is so symbolic. It's more about being all, it's more about recognizing that cycles movement. You get the wind going in spirals. The wind is in the desert that is swept around and go in spirals and take you out. That, they were observing spirals out in nature

and it was a way for movement to happen. One of the kinds of movement. The straight lines are hard to find in nature. Absolutely straight lines. And I think that they weren't. They weren't into just getting... And I think later some of the cultures do, and there's some really nice straight lines down in Central America also. But the spiral is there also, and it's like also starting from the center and having a movement through life, acknowledging a life movement that just happens naturally. Some people interpret it as the path that one takes during a lifetime. It is mostly talking about movement. But it wasn't a major spiral. People became very good. Some of those spirals just go on

and they're just beautiful. But they always have a center and they always go outwards. Does it matter how many times they go outwards? Does that happen? Some people... Some people claim it's four. I've seen more than four. And then I think it was more than that. That keep moving idea. That movement. Glad it was you. Well, I feel really good about the interview and what you're saying about art and architect. And so not to repeat, but kind of almost a repeat. Just one more... Maybe saying, at the beginning, I think we were still a little bit nebulous. Very beginning. Yeah, right. And so I'm wondering if we can just get kind of a tighter statement that from you that it's talking and... You know...

I forget to ask you the question one more time. How do you see Puglovo Nito as a piece of art as a piece of architecture? Well, we don't have architecture as part of native languages or art either for that matter. And so what it is is an expression of life. It's an expression of the way we do things. And just that makes it beautiful because we act as we are at the center and are moving out about as a centered person. Then we do things beautifully. And chocolate. All its structures and Puglovo Nito. Beautiful. And Puglovo, that way, it's an expression of humans doing what they see as right and form, color,

line, whole thing. And more than that, seeing that it's in relation to everything else around it. And including humans. You're on an airplane. You know, I felt like we're almost like you pretty much landed that. Just in a way to kind of leave us thinking about what. You know, you talked about what I don't think you have to repeat the whole thing. You talked about what art is, though, but it's actually not. I mean, art is just being. It's interesting because we put the word, we put the label, the word art on something, and it seems to have meaning. But you're kind of redefining that a little bit. I'd like to, I think, especially from the Pueblo point of view, it's art not being that special thing out of ordinary,

out of the ordinary, but that it is. The ordinary art is in everything that we do or is really is. Because when we're angry, we're expressing a kind of an anger and whatever we make comes out looking that way too. You know, and how do we ever get around that anyway? And if I'm seeing that, oh, I am. I am. Okay. Because I am part of that. Cloud up there and it's moving and the day is beautiful. And we're alive. We had enough to meet today. I can work on this and I can make it nice. I can really make it the way I would like to see it. And I think that there are notions of form and function all come together. I don't think they have to. We so tend to prove form and function apart. But I think if you're doing things unconsciously,

the things are being unconsciously with just letting the flow come through you. That's what the spiral is about. Just letting the energy come through you. Then you do something as powerful as that. And you know there are places which are probably bonito. Somebody didn't like doing that today. But as an overall, it's pretty nice. So they were taking care of themselves. I think they were living their lives the best way they could. And so, would you say the problem for the video?