Report from Santa Fe; Joe Carraro and Shannon Robinson

The National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by a grant from the Healey Foundation, Tau's New Mexico. I'm Lorraine Mills and welcome to report from Santa Fe. Today our guest are two illustrious and colorful senators. First, we have Democrat Shannon Robinson from Albuquerque. Thank you for joining us. And Joe Carrero, Senator Joe Carrero, Republican from the west side of Albuquerque and Rio Rancho. Thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure. Yeah, it's a pleasure, Lorraine. Well, it is a pleasure, and it's with mixed feelings. I have watched you in the Senate together. You have 40 years experience. You've each been in the Senate for 20 years.

And I have been in the galleries in the press gallery watching you and enjoying your mind and how articulate you are, and also no strangers to controversy, too. And now you will not be coming back to the Senate. So tell us, I know how that makes me feel. I will miss you. But tell us how that makes you feel, and Joe, why don't you go first? Well, in some ways it's sad, of course. I mean, I think when I first realized I wasn't coming back to some sense of relief as well, because we do work really hard. We come up here, we go to interim committee meetings, we travel around the country going to meetings. We're an unpaid legislature, and it's taxing sometimes on our families as well as on our personal lives. But the thing is, is that it's the camaraderie, the impact we make, the influence we have, the way we're able to help people. It's kind of sad to leave, especially at a time when there's a lot to be done yet. I mean, my gosh, it's not that we're leaving and say, OK, we fixed all the problems. We're ready to, you know, now you guys can take the ship in the same direction.

It's like there's going to be problems. And so it's a shame that in some ways. But then again, I think maybe it's time for us to move on. And Shannon? Oh, there's life after death. That's good to know. And there's nothing more dangerous than a politician who's reinventing himself. So that's what Joe and I get to do. We get to reinvent the whole new lifestyle and at the same time really be involved because I don't think you ever leave the Senate. I don't think you ever really leave that family of people that work here and people who served here. Well, I, you know, I'm sure you're going to run again. Oh, wait a minute, I was supposed to announce his next candidacy. We never say never. And at the same time, what glorious 20 years we both had. We really got to be part of some, I think, some real major soul searching in this state. But actually, as we leave, one of the things that I got a lot of help from Joe on was a bill

that expanded venture capital investment by $120 million. And this is money that gets loaned out to venture capital corporations. Very, Joe and I have always targeted corporations that use technology coming out of our two fine lab and in coordination with a lot of university research, then what you find is these corporations just need a boost. And so I put together a bill that had took three percentage points from the permanent fund that that three percentage points turns out to be with oil and gas rising. It turned out to be upwards of about $160 million that can be used. This gets loaned of venture capital corporations. They get their business started. New Mexico, the state itself, has an equity interest in that.

I got to the finance committee and they were going to cut it down to 1 percent sort of in response to how well the film bills financing had done. They didn't want to give me too much. That's part of the virtue of the ethics up here. And so it came down to they were going to cut from three percentage points down to one. That's a difference of about $100 million dollar's loan. And Joe raised his hand and he says, you know what? This works. This is going to get our economy rolling in an area where we can keep scientists that are coming out of the labs, back their patents, great research that we can now dovetail. We did that. And that's why it went from a $25, $30 million dollar idea to something that's I think it's major impact, $122 million dollars into business. Thank you, Joe.

Well, no, I need to thank Shannon. I mean, this is going to be a love fest thing. But what it comes down to is that we work a lot of us there, well together, even though we have different expertise and different interests and agendas. And clearly, you know, I look at and say, well, my background was investments. I used to be a stockbroke, worked on Wall Street and all this other stuff. And all of a sudden, it's not me that comes up with the idea. It's Shannon that comes up with the idea. And it was great because a Democrat coming up with the idea, I'm my background. People, I think, would tend to listen to me and go to me for maybe advice or to see other legislators would look and say, what do you think about it? And here I am thinking about, I'm going, this is a great idea. What about the movie industry? Where did that come from? He allowed me to join with him. Really? I mean, I was, you know, my background is business. And I'm talking about business all the time. We need to bring in clean business to New Mexico. We need to somehow function in a way that we've never functioned before. We need to have investments and have people come in here and look at our state differently. And Shannon comes up with this, you know, hair-brained idea that let's look at the film industry

and let's go ahead and get them to come to New Mexico. Well, we start thinking about it and all of a sudden we realize that not only could we make money on it, but we can advertise New Mexico in a way that would never happen again. And so, you know, I get involved with him and listen to him and he's up there screaming and yelling. And I think I've maybe brought the business sense and common sense of the art, but it's clearly, clearly. He's the one that comes up with some of these really great ideas that takes a while, I think, to sink in. But that was John Henry's idea, actually, but we did make that work. And we went from zero people working in the film industry to now. It's over 800 people that are actually in high technology jobs, high-paying jobs that are green jobs and are probably, that's probably the largest increase of green jobs in New Mexico. And the Chairman of the Corporations Committee, don't forget. That's also, I mean, a situation that you were allowed to go ahead.

Here you have a Democrat Chairman of the Corporations Committee, which is typically a, you know, conservative business oriented. Well, you couldn't, in the old days, when Billy McKibben and Eddie Lopez and Johnny Moro and Manny Ottergone, were all on that committee with less Houston. You couldn't get anything out of that corporation. No. I mean, it was sort of like, what don't you understand about, no? So, you know, but the one thing you're noticing in the show right now, Lorraine, is number one, you can't get a word in edge-wise with Joe, you know? I thought he had most of the, but also the second thing is, I can really get him fired up. Yes, I have. Because I used to wait. And the thing is not really slow in the session. I could come over to Joe and say, hey, Joe, can't you kind of give us an hour? Can't you kind of, could you hear what they just said? But really, you were a champion a lot for autistic kids in this last session. I met a man that had an autistic kid that lived in my district.

And he says, what's going to happen for autism? And I said, well, you know, there will never be a person that fought as hard as Joe Carrero did. So, you know, a tip of the lobo hat to you, Joe, for that. But tell us about one of my favorite stories about you is what the end of one of the last couple of sessions where they were trying to run some bills through. And you have been known to get up and speak at length about some issues and maybe obstruct progress in the mind of some people. I'm going to use the word obstruct. Well, let's say slow. Well, no, I like to look at it as there's, we all like to, we all have agendas and we certainly want to make sure that the issues that we have are considered. And many times, I mean, I support issues sometimes that for, and Shannon as well, of people that really don't have a voice. The voice kind of voice that lobbyists would represent or big business would represent or whatever. And so I always kind of like, at the end of the session is the time when we have to pass

the money bills and everybody's worried about their own individual agenda type bills. And so this one session, as typically happens sometimes with both Shannon and I, we will stand up and we'll discuss issues. And try to not just pass things without having an understanding as to what they're all about. So we'll talk about the different bills and sometimes talk at length. Well, this one time I received a call and I mentioned this to many people before that from the leadership who said, listen, we understand that you're going to be talking and wondering if you could just kind of just calm down a little bit and I said, well, I want to get a bill passed. I want to get the brain injury bill passed. And this was a bill that they couldn't pass over the past few years because we'd always come down to the end and the people in the brain injury community. We'd be sitting up in the gower. They'd be all excited. They'd say, this is our chance and it would go by the wayside, no one would hear it. And I said, I want to pass that bill.

I said, well, tell you what we'll do. We'll allow you to go ahead and put that bill on. And they would tell me that people said, talk like that sometimes. We'll allow you to put that bill on if you go ahead and, you know, don't talk for the next until the end of the session. And it was about, it was about, like, keep it ten minutes, yeah, yeah. So anyway, they said, I said, but they were going to allow me at the end, put on the bill. And I said, I'll tell you why. I said, they said, I said, how long and it was like an hour and a half or something. I said, I'll tell you why. I said, I won't, I won't debate. I said, for, you know, 40 minutes or whatever. I'll give you 40 minutes to put on whatever bills, but at that point, I want to go ahead and I want to put on this, this brain injury bill. And to their word, I mean, we had in the green. When you have an agreement down there, people keep their word. And to their word, at that moment, they called me and said, okay, you're putting on your bill. I put it on. We passed a billion animously because it's never passed before. And the governor signed it and these people were giving the money. So I mean, there's, there's, sometimes methods to our madness. Ten million dollar difference in that case.

So it's, it's, it's issues like that that, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that happen toward the end of the session. And certainly, there's a lot of things that happen during the session that you can not take control of, but you feel strongly about it. I think what it is, I think if our fellow legislators really think that we believe in what we're doing, and they say, okay, let's, let's cut them some slack. If we're just going to go up there and just, you know, just do things for our own personal agendas or whatever, I think we'd have more difficulty. Well, now, Joe, Joe, we did have a personal agenda. You should know this, Lorraine, because between he and I, we were every year in a competition for the quote of the day. It's true. It's true. And of course, I won five years in a row, except in this last year, Joe and I tied. And that's the first time. And so by the way, congratulations. And the judges have given you an extra 10% just because of how hard you carried the banner for quote of the day.

So, I just wanted to let you know in your life. Shannon would stand up and make up statements. He would have people helping him, seeing behind saying, saying quotes to say, I would just come out and just naturally talk about issues, and that's how I would try to get quote of the day. His was, his was actually a, not just a competition. His was actually like some, some sort of industry that he had said, with people assisting him to get quote of the day. But it was really interesting. And you think about, there would be 60-day session and Shannon would end up with 13 quotes. I'd end up with 12 quotes and the governor would get one. Well, in the 20 years that you've been in the sand that you've seen lots of changes. And I'd like you to mention, if you could, some of your inspirations who has influenced you the most in your career, and how do you think things are going? Well, maybe just let's talk about influences, Shannon. Who influenced you? Oh, I would have to say, Joe Fidel was a tremendous influence to me. He gave me his seat on the legislative finance committee.

I thought Mike Alloried was a big influence on me because at the time that I got elected, Mike Alloried reached out and helped me get elected. I'd known Manny Otter going longer than any person in the legislature. And so when I arrived here, I had a tremendous relationship with Manny and really worked very hard to accomplish so many things that he did great works for this state. But the person that I have to say I treasured the most was the Will Rogers of New Mexico, John Moral. Yes. And I got to sit next to John Moral to my left and on my right was John Pinto. So I was sitting between the two Johnny's and there was just nothing like John Moral. He would stand up. He'd say things like, if you ever need a banker and a lawyer at the same time, you're in real trouble.

That was his way of his means of logic. But he also had that socratic method where he would debate by asking questions. And I once saw him get to the point where he actually had to stand up and say, you know what, after all this debate, I think I debated myself out of my own position. And he changed his vote and just based on how the questions he'd asked. So I followed him around like a puppy dog and I learned so much from John Moral. And speaking of the socratic method, that's pretty much how you have worked. You always, when you speak and address these issues, you ask questions and you don't rule anything out. You have a very open mind in that respect. Who are some of your influences? Well, as you mentioned, I learned by questioning. I never go into any issue. I always have a predisposition to say, OK, this is where I think I'm going to be, but I ask questions. And I guess I learned that maybe from the people early on, any Lopez always sticks out in my mind because he was one of these guys who would put his arm around me and call

me Python for some reason. And take me behind closed doors and kind of explain to me the politics of it all. Because that's one thing I think somebody like me has difficulty with, understanding, I mean, I understand, you know, some people say we understand the process as well as anyone. Yeah, I do. But the politics, I just don't, it's a shame sometimes I think about the political system we have. So I need somebody to sit down and say, listen, if you want to get something done, it's just not whether you're right or wrong, or you think you're right and you can explain. And you said, you're good at explaining things, but let me explain to you that there's a system here and there's the method of politics you need to get along with people, understand them, listen to them, learn from them. And so that's what I've been doing. I mean, ever since those early days in 1985, when I was first elected, it was listening and understanding. And to this day, learning every day from the people in that floor, it's incredible. It was an education.

People say in the Mexico, it's a PhD, PhD is nothing compared to that. I mean, what we think about and what we address, the issues we address, like say my expertise or shan's expertise, when we listen to other people comment, it's tremendous. I go into Judiciary Committee every year, screaming and yelling, saying, let me tell you something about the law, let me tell you the way it should be, and I walk out there and go, wow, these guys are pretty sharp. So it comes down to where I think that if you go in there with an open mind, if you question, you learn, and everybody on that floor has taught me something. Not everybody, whether it's good or bad, and everybody seems to be someone that you could look at and say, someone out there, their constituents must admire them for the amount of work that they put into the legislature. Now, you've both gotten party politics has changed a lot. And I know that you both have been at odds with your party, crosswise with your party at different times.

Can you talk a little about the role of party politics and how it's changed and how it's so toxically partisan in terms of Republican versus Democrat, but within the party, there's a lot of problems. Well, Glenn, well, see, Joe actually has been so isolated on times that I would say he caucused in a phone booth, but sometimes your ideas become divergent from what some of the mainstream is, but in terms of my career, I grew up working with Ralph Yarbra, a great liberal Democrat from Texas. I got to serve coffee to Robert Kennedy in the Senate Labor Subcommittee one day. I got to watch some of the greats debate on the U.S. Senate floor. I came out here and as probably being a born Democrat, I understood what my party stood for.

I had a love for what my party had gained over the years and what we'd fought for and the justice issues that we had taken on. I now barely halfway through my career, there is a coalition takes place, Richard Romero joins with the Republicans and creates a coalition, it was the last time we had reapportionment and we really, the deal was that we voted the Republican plan and to me that was heartbreaking because reapportionment is supposed to give to the winners the rewards of the victory and we did not experience that in this legislature. And the lines were drawn for the congressional battles, but that's how intense that fight was for me and as a result, they never shoot the generals, they always shoot the lieutenants and so I lost my committee, I lost my staff, I lost my office, the only thing they couldn't take from me was my legislative seat, but every day I reminded those people that broke

from the Democratic Party and the renegades that joined the Republicans. I remind them what they were doing to their party and you know what, eventually Lorraine, those same people have organized themselves with the nonprofits to now attack me and take my Senate seat. That is how strange Democratic Party politics have to come, but as my standard has always been to be the loyal Democrat that I was and I understood that and I was willing to stand up for my party and when my party took the hit, it was me that was attacked and I paid the price. It's something that I'll always be proud of. I've never been much of a party person as politically speaking, yeah, oh yeah, that's right. I do think karaoke, but no, I came in because of Ronald Reagan, I thought he was a great guy, my sister, it was out in California, she was a great governor and I certainly got

involved in his campaign from the beginning as a matter of fact, went out and met with him in Utah, at the hotel Utah when he was thinking of running for president. He picked some people from different states, I was a small businessman with flour on my shirt from making pizzas and walked out there and he looked at me like, okay, we're talking to small business people here, I looked around the table and I said, well, all these people probably have 300, 400 employees at one time I was the only employee, now I have three or four and so I explained to him what small business was all about and I think he appreciated that and came back into it and he, when I helped, I mean, I worked on his campaign and after that he has met with some members of his campaign asked me to run for office, they were Republicans. I believe in the Republican platform, I'm pro-life, I'm a small business man, I don't think we ought to have more taxes, I said this, twins that, you know, hey, a government is there to do things for people too, there's a reason for government, it's to help people who can

help themselves too and so I would always get kind of mixed up with the party may but I got along with the Republican party for many years, they supported me in some ways and they never gave me any money, I ran kind of on my own, ran the district, I was four to one Democrat in the beginning, they told me I couldn't get elected so they couldn't help me later on in my career, they told me they couldn't help me because I couldn't lose. So it got to the point where, but I won but then if it came down to where there was not just the ideology of the difference between Republicans and Democrats, we always had a problem fitting in somewhere with because I believe in some of the things Democratic Party was doing, I believe in some things Republican Party was doing and I disagreed sometimes with some of the things but then also I saw political parties were taking a term for the worst, they were becoming businesses unto themselves, they were making money, they were becoming a dictatorial, they would tell you how to vote and things like that, I couldn't do that, I just couldn't listen to them anymore and so that's where the

falling out I think occurred and of course I would never lose a general election but like people said, I think Peter Manchin mentioned two more times, I don't think you'll win a primary because I would win my general elections by 86%, but I would go into a primary against a candidate that was, you know, maybe had didn't have the experience I had or maybe what I thought was the qualifications much more than my opponent but I would go into the primary and the party, the party would turn against me, even though it's illegal, they would do that and they would do that because they would try to keep me down because they knew that I would win every general election I'd get involved with but even given that they wouldn't allow me to enter a general election through a primary because they felt, hey listen, you know this guy wouldn't represent us totally, he won't be someone we can dictate to and that's the problem with party politics I think sometimes, I don't know how it is in the Democratic side but I have to tell you with the Republican side it's like that, you have to be totally dedicated to them, I'm dedicated to my constituents and to the issues that I feel strongly about.

So like I said, that's been the falling out of me. Think of this Joe, Pete Domenici's retiring this year, Gene Frankini has retired from this Supreme Court, Lidial Renaldi, chose not to run, to be with his wife and now this is your leaving, the Italian Americans are taking a hit. Well I'll tell you, you know something, I have to tell you what, when I first got elected my father was born in Italy, he said to me he says what, what an honor, I can't, he couldn't believe this was happening to me, that our family had come over for me, obviously we have somebody elected now, we're right, there's the Irish is still around though, right? But we just have a couple of minutes left, what advice, what's going to happen in the Senate, who's going to carry the banner for your issues? Oh, I have concerns about the State Fair, I think we're going to lose the State Fair and I've seen the plans my successor has for the State Fair and he wants to build a soccer

field in the track, he thinks it's a good place for a research area to create research industry apart and maybe mix housing and unfortunately you can't keep the State Fair running without horses and you can't have equestrian centers without horses that compete and so I have real fear about that. I have fear about the fact that you know if you don't, if you don't drill for oil and you don't develop natural gas and if you aren't allowed as a State where the reason we have a strong economy is we are the seventh State in the country in terms of oil and gas production and that's what finances are schools. Well, I'm just worried about the economy, how we're going to be able to survive as a State with the federal government kind of screwing up the way they have.

I think that when you look at the economy and how we're affected by this whole thing in our state, I just think that's why I ran for Congress because I thought well we can't make it on our own anymore, we need to depend upon the federal government because we have so much state land, 80% of our land is federal land, that we can't get revenue from. So I thought I had to go back to Congress to straighten that out and unfortunately my party didn't want to allow me to do that. So I gave up my seat and to do that. So I'm worried about the issues but hopefully I'll be able to still be a legislative advocate. I know some people call them lobbyists but I don't think I want to be a lobbyist, I want to be an advocate for certain issues and come up here and maybe earn a living doing that. Maybe I like to write, I'm going to be writing books and stuff, maybe I'll write some books about the legislative process that get people thinking, I want to be, we're going to still be involved, we're going to still come and talk to our own political legislature. You could do that, we can write a sitcom, we'll call it a recent.

So I mean that's what I'm just, I am worried, it's sad that we're leaving. I think we offered a lot to the state, we served the state well I think but we had so much more to do and that's what I'm concerned about. Well I'm so grateful to you both for taking the time with us today. Our guests today are Senator Joe Carrero, Republican from the west side of Albuquerque, Andrea Rancho and Senator Shannon Robinson, Democrat from Albuquerque. Thank you for joining us, we'll miss you very much. Thank you, Lorraine. Thank you, Lorraine. Thank you. And I'm Lorraine Mills, I'd like to thank you our audience for being with us today and report from Santa Fe, we'll see you next week. Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by Grant Strong, the members of the National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by Grant from the Healey Foundation, Tau's New Mexico.