Report from Santa Fe; Lincoln Hall and Nick Heil

You Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by grants from the members of the National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by a grant from the Healey Foundation, Tau's New Mexico.

I'm Lorraine Mills and welcome to report from Santa Fe. Today we have two extraordinary people, two writers who are going to tell us of adventures beyond our kin. So I'd like to first introduce from Australia, Lincoln Hall, whose book is called Dead Lucky. Are you the subtitle? Life after death on Mount Everest. An extraordinary read, an extraordinary story. And also with us today is Nick Hyle. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. He's the author of the book Dark Summit and the subtitle. The true story of Everest's most controversial season. Fabulous. I will tell you that I have been in heaven for two days reading these books. They are extraordinary. And in a way they are kind of the alpha and omega because your book looks at the whole very controversial and in many ways tragic 2006 climbing season of Everest. And your book is about your own experiences because you were actually declared dead and

left for dead on Mount Everest in this 2006 season. And we'll have, you'll tell us all about that. I want to just give a little more of your background, Lincoln, because in 1984 you led the first Australian assault on Everest and you wrote a book about it called White Limbo. Tell us a little about that. Yes, well the name comes from an Australian song called White Limbo actually. And people used to be walking along the glacier with their walkman zone in those days before iPods. And the chorus was White Limbo. So you'd hear these people singing White Limbo. Anyway, so that's where the name came from but there was a big slab of snow across the whole north face which was very dangerous from avalanches and we labeled that White Limbo. But what we were doing, we were climbing a new route on the north face without oxygen. And it was a very serious, very dangerous climb actually. And we spent a lot of time just waiting for avalanches to clear.

Similarly, two of our team of five climbers reached the summit, got to the summit at sunset and I earlier decided that was, I didn't want to be up there in the dark so I turned back within time. So I could get down to a camp within daylight. But yeah, it was a great experience but I still had unfinished business with Everest. And what drew you to this story? You were a journalist, you worked with Outside Magazine and you continue even now to do it outside online, you're their lab ran. But what drew you to this story? Well, I had originally done this as a magazine story and during the summer of 2006, sort of shortly after the events of 2006, it transpired and I became so fascinated while working on the magazine piece that and feeling like the magazine piece, well long it really only began to scratch the surface of the larger story and I really felt compelled to want to tell the story in its entirety and really let readers get to know the characters and

the specifics of all the events that transpired and really try to recreate the events of the 2006 season from start to finish so that people had a much richer and more complete sense of what had actually gone down on the mountain. Well, can you describe for our viewers who cannot imagine at least until they read your books? Like what is the environment like in the death zone, which is above what 25,000 feet or a 20-story? Yeah, it doesn't make all that much difference really because things can go wrong anywhere on the mountain but certainly the realm beyond human life is above 26,000 and I used to think it was a melodramatic term used by journalists but it's actually a real place where death is always lurking and it can come in all sorts of ways. Obviously, there's a huge shortage in oxygen.

I mean, there's a 30% of the oxygen at sea level is what you get on the summit of Everest. Even when you're using oxygen equipment, you're probably only getting 50%, you mind just not working properly, it's a huge effort that you have to put in just because of the shortage of oxygen because you've been climbing 9,000 foot of mountain without proper sleep, without proper nutrition. It's a very, very marginal place for humans to be. And you lost, how much weight in 2006 when you put 40 pounds in a how long a period? Well, I guess probably lost 30, but 30 of those pounds would have been in the last 10 days of it, I'd say. And how could you describe what is like on this kind of a sand? Well, I haven't actually been up that high, so Ling is probably more qualified to talk about it from a personal experience, but I did do quite a bit of research into the sort of world of high altitude physiology and sort of looked very closely and deeply at what

happens to the human body as it moves up into these very extreme elevations. And there's this process of attrition that takes place during the period of time that climbers are on Everest, climbing expedition on Everest takes quite a long time, but it's not because people are climbing all of this time, it's because they simply have to wait for their body to change and aclimatize. And so the metabolic process that's going on is becoming increasingly more intense, the higher up you go because your body is trying to compensate for the diminished environment in which it's operating. And so it's this very interesting kind of race against time where you're moving upwards into a more and more dangerous environment while trying to give yourself enough time to aclimatize and then making a dash to the summit and back before your body actually breaks down to the point where it can't sustain itself anymore. And that's what makes what's called the death zone so incredibly dangerous because you can really only be up at this extraordinary elevation for a very limited amount of time.

I mean, I think 48 hours maybe a little bit longer, but not much more than that before your body simply can't sustain its own metabolic process. And death is kind of imminent at that altitude, so you got to get up and out of there fairly quickly. Which brings the inquiring mind to ask, why do people do this? And you know, the famous quote from Mallory who tragically was lost on Everest, but because it's there, why do you climb it because it's there? But you recently in the speech, you talked about how it makes you focus being that close to death, being under the intensity of the experience. Why do people do that? Well, I guess the closeness to death in the death zone is a metabolic thing, but on any big mountain, there are deadly dangers, avalanches, storms, falling off. And you have to be aware of all those dangers at the same time.

You need to be, make sure that your foot is firmly placed when it needs to be, you need to be using your equipment in the proper way. You need to be aware of what where you are in your head, where your companions are. I mean, there's so many things you're juggling, and you just have to be 100 percent, well, more than 100 percent alert. And that brings with it the very heightened senses, but at the same time, I mean, it's not so much the case on most of the north side of Everest, but higher up it is the case where the climbing becomes a little bit more technical. So you do have to think about every footstep where you're going to put your hand, because there's also a amount of conserving energy as well. And so that requires just, there's no room for anything else in your mind. And that's, I guess that's a rare thing in the modern world, because we're sitting here having this interview, and we know we've only got a certain amount of time, and there

are other things that would be in our mind, whereas on the mountain, it's just where you are and what you're doing. And that's, it's like that being in the present moment, which is the, you know, the ultimate state of being has perceived in Buddhism, at least. When, one of the things that I noticed in reading your book that, when people have attempted, but not some of the people go, oh, you know, your children would say, yeah, my dad, you know, climb Mount Everest, and they say, did he make it to the top that first time in 1984, and the answer was no, and everyone would be deflated, but you would point out, it's so important to get all your people down. The accent isn't just getting to the top, it's getting back alive. And so was that an issue of, of, of incompletion for you that you wanted to finally go ahead and finish out? Why did you go in 2006? Well, it, I guess it was an issue of completion, but I mean, it's 22 years between expeditions, so it obviously wasn't a, a driving passion.

I mean, after that, not long after my first climb on Everest, I met my wife, and we had a family, and that, I didn't actually don't think I went overseas for eight or ten years. So yeah, look, I had other priorities, and I was working as a high-altitude cameraman on, on different projects and other climbing projects as well as high-altitude ones, and so Everest was just another job in a way, but Everest is now just another job. And the way things turned out, I thought that, well, this is a chance to be on Everest and even if I don't sum it, I haven't been on this route, and it'll be my last hurrah, you know, and it turned out to be, almost turned out to be my last hurrah in a way that I didn't intend. Yeah. Well, let's take a moment and look, and look at that story, because they say that not only did you cheat death by being declared dead and then being discovered alive the next day, and quite very much alive, but you also cheated science and logic and history, and if you could just give us the short version, I want people to read your book, Dead Lucky,

and it's just thrilling, but if you could give us a short version, how you ended up to be declared dead, I mean, they even poked your eyes to be sure that you... Yes, because they did. Well, I guess I don't like to... I don't... It's not so much that I cheated death, I like to say to death, I'll see you later, that's how I see it. It was a sort of an, that was an amazing thing to become so close to death, but to be able to step aside from it. What happened to me was I was stricken with cerebral edema, which is basically a deadly form of high-altitude sickness, which it's essentially stopped your brain from working properly, and basically went, what happens is you tend to go crazy and do all sorts of things I tried to climb up the mountain. I was wasting all the energy, all the spare energy I may have had. I burnt up in the five hours of craziness as I descended, and I was only descending because the shepherds were pulling me down.

So by the time we got down to 28,000 feet, I had no energy left. I'd used all the energy that I required to get down off the mountain. I had burnt up by my misbehavior, I suppose, and so I could not move anymore. The shepherds was not just exhaustion, they couldn't pick any signs of life, no pulse, no breathing, the poke in the eye, no response. You'd think there'd be some kind of reflex there, but nothing was shown, and two hours after that, the exhibition leader said that the shepherds should save themselves because obviously I was beyond saving. So they will continue down to the camp. Tell us who discovered you the next morning and what you were doing. Well, the next morning, well, the night was an amazing thing, I mean, in terms of that was an experience in itself, but my goal had been just to get through the night and then see what the next step was.

My book's called Dead Lucky, not by accident because that next morning, four climbers came up and found me. They thought I was in a much better condition than I actually was because I said to them, I imagine you're surprised to see me here, which was not really the kind of thing you'd expect to hear. I guess that shows the way that my mind wasn't really connected with where I was, and the four climbers realised that one of them tied me onto the rope so that if I slipped I wouldn't actually fall off the mountain. Now they pulled out the radio to call for help, so everything was starting to look good for me and hopeful again. Well, you were sitting, as I understand, from your book. You were sitting at the edge of a 10,000-foot cliff and you were sitting cross-legged. You had no oxygen. You were not properly dressed for the temperature. So, what was your state of being then? My state of being was, I was actually half undressed, I mean, I had a down suit on and

it was unzipped and I'd taken my balaclava off, but that is a common response to the last stages of hypothermia when your body is no longer able to conserve what little heat it's able to generate and it just sort of basically cuts out and the actual feeling, the sensation that you get in those circumstances is a flush of heat and so you actually think you're hot and you're not and then when you die and that was when these people arrived. So, another half hour and I may have been gone. Well, it was two years ago this weekend. That's right. This is your second birthday. Happy birthday. And the other good news of the story was that the people who found you, the mountaineers who, and then stopped their own climb to rescue you and to take you back or to be sure that you got back.

And did they not finally summit again this year? Well, firstly they didn't even question what they should do. They just went straight into rescue mode, but yes, one of them summit it again just a few days ago and that was Andrew Brescher, a Canadian climber, Dan Mazua probably would have summit it if he hadn't broken his leg, you know, it's very shortly before the expedition. So yeah, so I mean it was a fantastic thing to learn that Andrew had actually got there after what he'd done for me. Can you tell us what your life is like now in terms of your fear of death or having beneficially dead and gone to the edge and come back, how has that affected who you are now? Well, I suppose what it's made me realize is that the limits that I had perceived about I guess life and death, which is pretty basic, those limits that was a belief rather than actuality because my understanding of life and death is quite different, it's much broader

that there's much more latitude I suppose, it's not such a sharp thing and I mean, of course there are circumstances where you're dying, you just, you've torn apart or blown apart or whatever, you're gone, but there's also, I think there's a mental area, there's a consciousness that can still be operating within you when I guess in a medical sense you are dead and it is possible to come back from that situation. And that is kind of, you're not afraid of death. And I'm not afraid of death and that's an extraordinary liberating feeling, not that I think about death. I mean, when I'm going off to a mountain I do because it's so dangerous and you have to be aware of those dangers, but it is, I know that whatever happens in life, it'll be okay. Well, we will take that with some comfort there, thank you, thank you very much. So your story, Lincoln, was kind of the highlight, the positive story from the 2006 climbing

season that you, Nick, have covered so in such detail in your book. But one of the things that you wrote this book for I understand is to try to give balance to the overall season because there was also a very tragic story that happened and the press really kind of exaggerated both extremes. So tell us a little about the overall season, here we have the one of the shining pinnacle of the most extraordinary experience of years, Lincoln's. But let's put that in the context that you can of the whole season. I, well, you know, as I've said, I tell the story of the 2006 season sort of from start to finish and I, and I do it because I wanted to, not only did I want to provide people with a lot of the specific details of what had gone on, but I also wanted to take a look at the way that Everest's story was being told and that, you know, I was troubled as a journalist. I was troubled by the sort of black and white and very sensationalized picture that was emerging in the, in the sort of media frenzy that, that was ensuing in the wake of

the 2006 season, sparked in part by, you know, Lincoln's very dramatic story. But also because people were comparing Lincoln's story with the, the very sad and tragic death of a British climber, his name was David Sharp, who had been climbing during that same season and about a week earlier, a week before Lincoln's experience up near the summit, David Sharp, who had been climbing alone and independently, had collapsed up on this, up on this part of the mountain called the Northeast Ridge and was discovered or, or at least seen by a number of climbers on May 15th. And those climbers were unable to do anything to help him. And so the, the, the, the, the screaming headline that emerged after this was that 40 climbers had passed this dying man and need of help on their way to the summit and nobody had bothered to, to do anything for him. And what I discovered in my reporting was that, in fact, there had been a fair amount of, of effort made to help David Sharp and, you know, I, I, I didn't ultimately want

to let people off the hook, you know, particularly anybody who might have been in a position to do more, but I did want to try to explain all of the various complications and nuances and, and, and difficulties that are involved when you're talking about trying to rescue somebody in this extraordinarily, you know, severe environment when, you know, their condition by all accounts may, may have suggested that he was beyond any reasonable attempt at, at help. So, in a way, I, I wanted to kind of look at the, the compare, or to compare and contrast what had gone on and, and to try to provide people with a more, I guess a more accurate and, and thorough sense of what had taken place because I just, I really didn't want the historical record to reflect the, the story that the mainstream media had grabbed onto you and it just sort of perpetuated because they sort of feed off of one another. Well, what you point out in your book, dark summit, is that everything about ever is so complex.

There's so many cultures, so many languages, so many approaches from, from China and from Nepal, to the top, and then you almost use the, the Rochowman, the, the Japanese film that, that everything has to be taken from their own, individual point of view, and you only, in this book, tried to give the overall picture, then you add the fact that with high altitude, your own mind is having a Rochowman experience, you don't know really what's going on. So, it, it did not even serve Edmund Hilary, right, letters about the David Sharpe. Well, he did speak out publicly, you know, kind of condemning what appeared to be these very callous actions by, by climbers, but, but again, even, even, even Hilary's comment, I think, was taken a little bit out of context and also inflated in, in order to kind of reinforce a point that, that, that, that the mainstream news media was trying to make and that is that, that, you know, morality is kind of suffered on, on Everest, and I, you know, what's I quote by the Japanese climber, right, there is no morality over 8,000 meters, and this,

this came out of the 19, you know, the very popular and, and, and widely, you know, covered 1996 tragedy on Everest, and, and again, I, I wanted to look, I really wanted to investigate these, these sort of sound bites and these, and these quips that, that have come to characterize Everest and, and come to characterize Mount Nearing on Everest, because I just didn't feel like it was telling the full story. I mean, I really, you mentioned earlier that part of what I was trying to do was restore some balance to what was going on in Everest, but I also, along the way, wanted to restore a little bit of dignity and a little bit of sort of fairness to the people that were going up there, because I do think that there's, there's a fair, there's a fair bit more civilry, there's a fair bit more heroics, there's, there's far more camaraderie than I think is really being recognized, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to, on one hand, I didn't want to overly romanticize what's happening on Everest, but on the other hand, I didn't want, you know, such a dark, despite the title of my book, Dark Summit, I didn't want it to, to, you know, stand for something that was so sort of, you know, morally bankrupt

that, that, that, that, it only, the people were only seeing one side of the picture. And as you write in your book, Dead Lucky, the relationships that you formed, you know, the people who helped you, and I can't imagine talking about camaraderie, the kind of brotherhood that you have, or sisterhood, too, for the people that were with you every step of the way, and that helped you, you know, when you were so bad off. Well, that's certainly true, but that, that camaraderie is, is one of the really appealing features of, of mountaineering, whether it's in the Rockies or whether it's in Himalaya. It's, because they were dangerous places, and you really do need to look out for each other, and sometimes it just seems, you just have to straight, take strength from each other, because you, that's all you've got. And so, but in the case of rescue, my rescue on Everest, it was, well, it was an extraordinary thing. I didn't realize how extraordinary it was, because I was almost totally destroyed, and

it wasn't until I got back to Kathmandu that I understood that, that I recovered enough to understand what those people had done for me, and, and, yeah, that's something that I'll never forget. Have you recovered 100%, well, not, not really, I mean, obviously my frostbite is, is, well, that's never going to recover, but I have been rock climbing, so, I mean, you know, it's, it's, I can do most things, but no, I still do have energy levels, if I push myself too hard, I feel I've just got to have a nap, which I do. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's a very long road, it has been a very long road. So, how much more mountain, how much more mountaineering is in your future, you don't have to do Everest? Well, there may be no mountaineering, I don't know at this point, and I'm not too, too concerned about it, if, but certainly rock climbing I will do, because rock climbing you can, you can do in small bites, and you can do it safely, and you can decide which difficulty level you, you'd like to pitch it at, whereas in the mountains, you might climb a mountain one

season, and it's straightforward, and the next season, it's almost impossible, because of hard ice and maybe changes in the glaciers, and so, you never know what you're going to get in the mountains, which is great, because then you and your team have to work out how you're going to manage it, whereas rock climbing is far more predictable, you know. Now, after your work, Nick, on Dark Summit, does it make, how, how attracted are you to this, do you want to summit, do you, right? I, I, I, I, I, I, I can't say, you know, emphatically that I'd want to go back and try to summit Everest, I, I do find it very intriguing, I mean, I think, you know, I do climb, I, consider myself more of an intermediate, you know, kind of moderate climber, but, but, you know, Everest does have some appeal, you know, it's, I, I, I went up to about 23,000 feet when I was there working on the book, and I, you know, it's hard not to look at that summit and think, you know, I wonder if I could make it, I wonder if I could actually do this. So, you know, I think for a lot of climbers, you know, the, the sort of personal challenge

that, that, that draws people to any type of climbing, you know, exists for me in relation to Everest, but I think, you know, if I was going to do something like that, I'd want to have a nice long apprenticeship and, and really sort of follow a, a smart process where I build up my, my, you know, sort of preparation and ability to get up, up that high. And one of the people that you did interview say Everest, Everest, you know, they've already been to the top, or if you want the experiences put your head in the plastic bag and read it, or some of them, they, they don't even bother. I don't, did you even have your picture taken on the summit? No. No, no, you just hit and run in a way. Well, I took a picture of the Sherpas because it means more to them really. Yeah. It's like, it's like a, they don't have CVs or, you know, it's, they like, I mean, yeah, I mean, I've actually been questioned because I haven't had photos on the side, but, you know, you don't do it. It's not the point. It's not the point.

You're being up there. Yeah, there is not the point. It is not the point. And, and some of them also, the, they explain many times that it's not just a summiting to get back alive, to get back in with your people, that's the whole process, but let us know if you're going to drive it. And now it's so lucky that we both, we have you both in Santa Fe because you are on a national tour for your book, Lincoln, and you live here in Santa Fe, and I'm sure you'll be doing some, some tours around too. Yeah. I just want you both to know that these two books are one of the most extraordinary reads I'd ever, ever had. And I wish you a lot of luck. I want to show our viewers one more time. This is Lincoln Hall's book, Dead Lucky, really, you can't put it down once you've started. And then it's like Alpha and Omega, the broader picture, the 3,000 foot picture, is Nick Highell's book called Dark Summit. One thing I meant to ask you, your family was told you were dead. Well, everyone was told I was dead, it just went out as a news report, so yeah.

And then I believe your wife had a dream that you come to her. Well, my wife, I wouldn't quite call her to dream. And it was more of a, she was meditating and felt that she had a vision that she could feel my embrace, actually, and understood that this was my goodbye to her. So yeah, a bit more than a dream, yeah. And then they got the good news. Well, 20, 20, 20 minutes after that vision, the phone call came that I was dead, and 20 hours later it was confirmed that I wasn't, so horrible 20 hours. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, talk about mountaineering, it's nothing's worth them going through that again. Yeah, but they're very good to you upon your return. Yeah. Didn't you call and say, have you found another, I hope you haven't found another as well? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, you couldn't. Yeah, that's right. We joke about these things. Yeah, yes. Well, we're glad you're with us. Well, thank you for sharing these extraordinary experiences with us. And I'm Lorraine Mills.

I'd like to thank you for being with us today on report from Santa Fe. We'll see you next week. Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by grants from the members of the National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by a grant from the Healey Foundation, Taos, New Mexico. Thank you.

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