Report from Santa Fe; Herman Agoyo and Cliff Fragua

With a credit card Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by a grant from the members of the National Education Association of New Mexico. An organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future.

I'm Lorraine Mills. I'd like to welcome you to report from Santa Fe. Our guests today are Herman Aguayo from San Juan Pueblo, who is the co-chair of the New Mexico Statuary Hall Commission. We'll talk about that in a minute. And our other guest is a famous sculptor Cliff Frawa from Hamas Pueblo, who sculpted the statue of Popeye that we're sending to Statuary Hall. Welcome. Thank you. I'd like to show you first this poster because we recently had an extraordinary political and artistic event. It was held at San Juan Pueblo, and it was the unveiling of the sculpture of Popeye that is going to be sent representing New Mexico to Washington, D.C. But first let's talk a little about the history with New Mexico that Statuary Hall was opened in what 1864? I think so. And every state was allowed to have two sculptures, and we only had one. Right.

So in 1998, tell us about the history, how you finally got this to happen. Well, my wife and I took a tour of the Capitol, and the guide mentioned that New Mexico and several other states lack the second statue to represent their respective state. And so during that process, my wife made a site comment and said, why not nominate Popeye to Statuary Hall? Well, this goes back to 1976, but we were there to celebrate the bicentennial celebration of the birth of the United States. Well, I might add that the sculpture that we've had in there for a while was former Senator Dennis Chavez, certainly a very important political figure. Now, your wife, I'm just astonished from this comment that now 30 years later you've actually made it happen. Yes.

So I remember covering the legislature every year, there'd be yet another piece of legislation saying, let's get a sculpture of Popeye. How did you really make this happen? Well, I think the legislature finally got serious on this particular request. And Senator Maniarega, who was then Senate Pro Tem, became very committed to that bill that he introduced Senate Bill 404 in 1997. And previous to that, we had approaching Governor Bruce King, and he was the one that told us that he nominated the late Senator Dennis Chavez to be installed at Statuary Hall in Washington DC. And so in the beginning, he had the support of Governor King, but it never happened during his turn of office. Well, it happened under Gary Johnson, and that you're ceremony of the unveiling of this phenomenal work of art. You had Speaker of the House, Ben Luhan, you had President Pro Tem of the Senate, Ben Altenrana, you had Governor Richardson give a fairly wonderful speech, and D. Johnson represented Governor Johnson under whose auspices this finally got rolling.

So I've got one more question before we go to our artists, and that's what is the significance of the only Native American piece of art commemorating a Native American in Statuary Hall in Washington DC? What is the significance of that? Well, to me, it's very extraordinary. And another extraordinary thing about this whole endeavor is that the artists came from Hamist Pueblo, and the first revolt took place in Hamist Pueblo in the year 1623. And so it's just a providence, kind of looking over us as we went about creating the Statuary Hall. Well, let's talk to Cliff Roa, our wonderful artist.

Tell us how you got this commission, and what it means to you, and while you talk about that, I'm going to be showing a few pictures of you actually working on this sculpture. Okay, sure. Well, I was back in, I believe it was 1999 when we received a call for artists from the various sources, what actually came through the New Mexico Statuary Hall commission. And I was able to acquire one of the call for artists, and I went ahead and made phone calls, and I submitted it in this certain material. And then I found out later that I was one of four finalists. And so I was quite pleased with that, and we were asked to submit proposals of our image of Popeye. And so I did my proposal in alabaster and submitted to the Statuary Hall commission.

And later I found out that I had been selected to deed the sculpture Popeye, and that was quite pleased, so I was happy. And so after the initial thrill of it, then I thought about, what am I going to do? How am I going to make this piece, you know, the best piece I've ever done. And how do you do a sculpture of a historical figure? There's certainly no photographs, no representations. And I know his name meant, right? Pumpkin, is that? Yes. So you had like these little clues to go on, and then the folk lore. So how did you conceive of how you were going to represent him? Well, I did some research about the Pueblo Revolt. I mean, I was already aware of the history.

I had known about the Revolt since I was a young child through research that I did for a class project. Although it wasn't in the history books, I managed to find out some information through various sources. But when I did my research for the Statue, I found that it was difficult to create a likeness of Popeye, since there were no images, no drawings, no description even. And so I just went ahead, as I normally do with my stone pieces, I just let the spirit emerge on its own. As far as the garment that he's wearing, I looked at some of the ceremonies that I performed at the various Pueblo's, particularly where I'm from.

And I thought about, well, since this has been carried on, you know, through centuries and with very little changes, I was hoping, well, I was assuming that this is probably what they wore back then. And so the use of the deer skin killed, the use of the deer skin robe. And I'm going to hold this up so that as you describe the pieces that you put in, that we can cut away and people can see the deer skin killed and go ahead. And so also the moccasins, they're similar throughout the Pueblo, the Pueblo villages, and also the woven sash that we wear during our dances and ceremony. The one thing that I had thought about was the hairdo, you know, the hairstyle. And so my first proposal was without the headband and later the commission asked to modify and asked me to go ahead and include the headband.

So I did. I also carved a jungle, which is a traditional Pueblo hairstyle. Basically, it's a bun that's wrapped with the use of the woven sash. And I do understand that even the anesthesies were the jungle. So that was what was symbolic of the Pueblo people, and that's why I used it. What is he holding his hands? In his hands, he's also holding another cord, which was used to signal the deer to revolt.

And that's in his left hand. In his right hand, he's holding the bear fetish. And the bear fetish symbolizes the ceremonies, the sacred ceremonies that we have. And surprisingly enough, I found out from the work kept in the San Juan Pueblo that Pope A is from the bear clan. And so the use of the bear fetish was appropriate in the sculpture. Well, I need to turn to Herman for a minute because it is said that Pope A was then the first American revolutionary. So please explain what his role was in the Pueblo Revolt and how that affected life in New Mexico. Earlier, I mentioned extraordinary things happening, unusual things happening. And another unusual thing about this whole process of creating the statue was that the artist Clifford was unanimously selected.

And just based on his material and his work. And so again, you know, it was the total commission voting as one as being as one to select the artist. But anyway, Pope A was identified as the prime mover of the revolt. And the revolt was planned out of Taos Pueblo for a period of almost five years. I'm 1675 to 1680. And so again, it was our ancestors who were interrogated by the Spanish and wanted to know why the Pueblo people revolted and who was behind this revolt. Several individuals were named and of course the prime mover being Pope A from San Juan Pueblo.

Now, was he a man of war? No, I go with a version that Clifford has given up Pope A. Pope A basically was a holy man, a farmer and a hunter and basically very passionate about his Pueblo way of life. A very simple man. So what it means then to have this man with all these politicians in Washington DC, it really honors the role of the Native American in history and certainly as a reflection of our New Mexico history. Yes, and a common person that was forced to take drastic action to conceive of uniting all the Pueblos and they were more than 19 at that time. And how long did the revolt last?

It started on August 10th and during the revolt, the Spaniards were separating two main groups. One saw a refuse at his letter Pueblo, the other one here in Santa Fe. The ones in the letter Pueblo left there on August 15th and the ones here in Santa Fe walked out of here in Santa Fe on August 21st. So it was basically from the 10th through the 21st. And yet it's had so many repercussions for our history because it really gave elevated the status of the Native American, you know, that they were standing up for their dignity and their rights. Right, and earlier you asked how this legislation happened. Yes. And to me the key was that we had the strong support of Senator Manny Argonne. And then we compared the revolt similar to the liberation of the 13 colonies from Great Britain. And everybody could relate to that? Yes, yes.

And that's why they called him the first, Popeye was the first American Revolutionary. Yes. So I want to come back to you because at this wonderful day and this is a picture from the Rio Grande Sun of the unveiling. So here are all these dignitaries from all over the state. Thank you can see that. And your sculpture was covered in this beautiful bronze cloth and then when it was unveiled to everyone for everyone to see, how did that feel for you? Well, I was so honored. I was overwhelmed with the emotions and with the recognition to even to a point where I could feel some tears. And knowing that my family, my community, my friends who have supported me in this endeavor that they were proud of the accomplishment. And I just felt really overwhelmed and I kept my composure.

Well, not everyone did because I had heard that in a way the prayers of all the pueblo people were also in your work. And to think of it loaded on a flatbed track and going to Washington DC for the unveiling. And of course, you'll be there in Washington, won't you? And you too, Herman? Yes, definitely. Yes, yes, because it's been a long haul. There will be a book written about the entire process. It's called Popeye. Thanks to a clear light. Thanks to clear light, Popeye. This will be the cover of the book when it comes out. It's coming out after the unveiling in Washington. And here is a picture with the sculpture of the two authors of the Popeye book, which are yourself, Herman Aguayo and Joe Sando. So we expect lots of press to come from Washington because they've never had an event of that scale that balances the influences of the Native Americans in our own state and nationally.

And this endeavor, we thought we should have happened several years ago. We didn't think that we were going to be the last state to have our second statue there. And then again, in itself, it's very unusual. So we have received many commendations about a Saturday's event, and I tell them, well, it went better than the way we planned it. And just like Clifford is telling us that spontaneously, very good things happen. And such was the case when all the tribal leaders and spiritual leaders that were there for the private ceremonial blessing in the early morning blessed, not only the statue, but blessed the artist Clifford. And who gave the blessings?

Spiritual leaders, tribal leadership that were there from most of the tribes in New Mexico. And then later in the day, you had the politicians and the public. And I'd like to thank my daughter who created the bronze garment that covered Popeye. Now, the question that all followers of government want to know is, how is this paid for? And is there an ongoing fundraising effort to complete the work? Yes, yes. We're still soliciting funding for the project because we're going to have expenses in Washington. And then we want to continue the foundation that we created, a text exam foundation known as the New Mexico Statue Hall Foundation, which is headed by my daughter, Pam Aguio, who is the director of Indian Student Services at the University of New Mexico. And so we want to reach out to, especially to the schools. And so we'll meet funding for that.

And we have some T-shirts for sale. We have posters for sale. Yeah, we have posters for sale. And if you're interested in obtaining a poster or T-shirt, just call 505-852-4400 and ask for Laura Calvert. Okay, that's good. And will you have educational programs for school kids? Yes. Yes. Well, maybe Clifford can come and talk to them about it. Right. And I've been doing that since 1980, when we had the Trison Tennis Celebration of the, you know, Revolt, 300th anniversary. So, 1980, your wife first had the idea in the early 70s. Yes. And then through 1980, and here we are, 2005. Right. And you ask about the funding. Yeah. We eventually got state support through Governor Richardson. So we're very thankful for that. And of course, he got the support of the state legislature. And so we did get $100,000 from the state legislature.

But this process took a long time because there were no appropriations from the beginning, no staff people. So it was kind of a hit and miss development. But, you know, we're financially sound and asking for more to carry on the educational program. Now, were there some other names before Popeye? Have people been suggesting names for our New Mexico's other statue for a long time? No, no. This did not surface until we approached Governor Boose King. And so we focused on Popeye and that. And then, of course, there was other nominations that were made through the legislative process. But we prevailed. Yes. But it was a long, a long hard fight and congratulations.

Thank you. Cliff, what else, you know, I'm sure you invested years of your life in this process. But what are you working on now? What are you looking forward to? Of course, going and seeing it in Washington. What other things are you working on now? And where can people see some of your other sculptures? Well, currently I'm working for a show in an Indianapolis at the Idol Jordan Museum. But that's their annual Indian market. Also, I'll be participating in an exhibition at the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center in June, which also is a part of the Indigenous Culture Society, which I'm co-founder of. And we will have that exhibition there, which will last. We'll run until October this year. As far as any other commissions, I don't have anyone. But I just love carbon stone. And I'll just continue working. And where were you trained? Were you mentored by another sculptor? Were you trained?

I attended the Institute of American Indian Arts. And during my second year there at the Institute, I took sculpture classes. And Alan Hauser was teaching at that time. So his work greatly influenced mine. But when I found, well actually when stone found me, I just couldn't get away from it. And I just continued the carbon and learning more about stone and the creative process of that. And which stone do you most love to work with? Well, I love working with marble. It's beautiful stone. It comes from all over the world as well as the domestic stone. And Bobay is carved at a Tennessee marble. It's one of the harder marbles. And I went to Friendsville, just out of Knoxville, Tennessee, and selected stone. And I had been working with that quarry. And they were very helpful as far as sending the stone to New Mexico, as well as hosting a sending away of the stone.

Oh, really? Which included the... Is there a Tennessee ritual for sending a piece of marble? Well, actually it involved some of the local dignitaries as well as the governor of Tennessee at that time. So he attended and the Tennessee marble company put that all together. And without their help, I think having the stone delivered to my studio would have been a little difficult. And how much did it weigh? They weighed seven and a half tons. Yes. But I've carved away about five tons on the stone. And how long did it take you to actually carve the stone? But the actual carving took about two years. But the stone was delivered three years ago. And I didn't sit for about a year trying to psych myself into carving the stone.

Yeah. That's the largest mass and volume that I've ever done. And so it was a challenge. I kind of thought the way Michelangelo did was that you take away everything that isn't supposed to be there and just released the spirit. Yeah. So how...it was hard in the pictures to tell how high is it? It's seven feet tall. And how broad? It's about three feet wide and about three and a half feet in depth. Yeah. Wonderful. We're just about out of time. But I would like to ask you, Herman, what it's meant for you to have conceived this idea and to see it into the unveiling, to actually know that it's finally happening and it's really going to be in Washington. And it will change everyone who looks at New Mexico. We'll see these two sculptures and get a sense of what New Mexico is about. So what are your feelings to close?

Well, first of all, thanks for inviting us to be on your show. And secondly, I want to thank all the individuals, corporations, tribes, Pueblos, that have contributed towards this endeavor. Without them, it wouldn't have been possible. It's again destiny, I think, was involved here. And it was going to happen. And right from the beginning, as I mentioned, Governor Bruce King said he was supported and... You know, came into fruition under Governor Johnson. And so, I'm just very thankful for getting us to this point. And one last word from you, Cliff, as your beautiful creation goes off to Washington. What words do you send to our viewers and to accompany, Popeye?

I'd like to thank everybody for their support. I'd like to also thank the Commission and the Foundation for all their hard work, also to the state of New Mexico for moving on with this endeavor. I'm proud to be from New Mexico. I'm proud to be Pueblo. I'm proud to be from Hamas. And it's a gift that I receive from the Creator. And as Herman had mentioned, it's destiny. I do believe it because everything fell in the place. And it just seems like that I got in this road, that we got in this road, and then we stayed on this road. And we saw it to the end. We were led to the end, I would say. But we are proud too, and we've run out of time, so I want to thank you. Cliff Froua, the creator, the sculptor of the Popeye statue, and Herman Aguillo, who was the co-chair of the Statuary Hall Commission.

Thank you for joining us on Report from Santa Fe. Thank you. And we'd like to thank you our viewers for joining us today. We'll see you next week. Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by a grant from the members of the National Education Association of New Mexico. An organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. Thank you.