Crossing; 103

Welcome to Crossing a K-R-W-G-T-V Special Projects production. And now your host, Jeremy Hojola. Community reactions to the Minimans presence along the international border here in New Mexico are mixed. On the front lines was Minuteman Bill Norris. He patrolled in the Booth Hill of New Mexico and was featured in the documentary Crossing as was Sylvia Sapien, a longtime community activist here in the Lower Valley. But first, our panel participants in their own words. I feel like somebody needs to be down here to do it, and I mean, I've lived in this part of the country all my life, and I don't have anything against anybody, but I think our laws need to be enforced, especially after 9-11. We don't know this coming across our border or what they're doing or what they're bringing. So to me, this is not about an immigration deal, it's about people coming into the country

illegally, and it's a security deal. The last thing I want to do is wake up someone and find out that a backpacker went off and down, down, to his son, or El Paso. And it's the fact that they bring the whole family. They start with one person coming over here to work in the fields, get a little money, find a place, and then they start bringing their wives and their children, and then they get married here, and they usually end up with people that aren't documented and they bring them over. They get their residency, then they start fixing everybody's papers, but they all originated as undocumented, but they work really hard to become documented. And when they don't, then a lot of them do have their children, and I know that's not supposed to be something that needs to be proud of, but they'll name their children the same as themselves, and they'll use that social security to work.

And that's even in the fields because they need to have even a social to work in the fields now. It's not like before. So they need a social to prove to the, to even to pick onions and pick chile. They need to show that they've got a social, they don't question the social or anything, but at least to say that we know that they're not undocumented. So when the border patrol shows up, the contractors, the farm owners can say, hey, they gave us a show social, and they cleaned their hands off of the problem. Now we've got a light going on, and we're going to look at that, and there's a light, there's a dark light right below where that light can be dropped, and you can see that. Another tells me that whoever's over there driving around is not out there for a scenic drive right now. Okay. If undocumented Mexicans or any undocumented person, if they were all deported in one day, businesses

would shut down. We wouldn't be able to go through a drive-through and just, you know, pick up a hamburger and pick up our dinner or our Kentucky Fried Chicken, I mean, that would not happen. Another thing, there will be a lot of women, both parents now have to work to pay our bills. What about the children? There's a lot of children that are being taken care of undocumented people. What's going to happen? People aren't even US citizens are not going to get to work. Where it's raining over there, that's Mexico, and those mountains for the most part are in Mexico. We've driven this road today, and we've found, obviously, trash, and it's fairly fresh. Not a lot, but some.

We found some tie-downs where they've been pulling the fence and actually tying it open, and then they'll cut it loose and you can't tell. All this, it is fear. That's why they're tightening up our borders, they're very, that we have, the minority has now become a majority, and imagine if we double the amount of Hispanics Mexicans in this country, we'll overpower the rest of the populations. So that's why it is fear, fear that we'll take over this country. And now we begin our discussion. The first question to Mr. Norris, what attracted you to the Minutemen project? The issue of national security attracted me after 9-11. We've been at war now for about four and a half years, as of last year, about three and a half. Our president asked us to be vigil, and I'm from this part of the country, and I know that we've got a illegal immigration problem. My concern more is national security and who's coming across our border and what they're

bringing. We've got about 2,000 miles of unprotected border to our south, another couple thousand on the northern border. There have been numerous incursions into the country and not all of them by simply people from Mexico, about 15 percent of the people I think that are coming into this country are called O.T.M.s, and they're from all over the world. Many from countries that are very unfriendly as. Okay, Mr. Sapien. You obviously don't like what the Minutemen are doing along the border. Why do you have a problem with their group? You know, it's not so much their intent. It's a way they were presented to the communities and the fear that they have created in the people. You know, their intentions, I feel that what Mr. Mars said was very on target. I do agree we need to protect our borders, but it's the presentation. How was presented to the community like we're trying to keep the Mexicans way and we're

protecting this or, you know, it was kind of an array, was presented in a racist kind of a way. Let's talk about that. Give us an example of how it was presented in a way that showed racism, that you feel showed racism. How did they do that? You know, TV and the word that got out was that they were out to get the Mexicans. Is that true, Mr. Norris? No, sir. It's not true. And I realize that we've gotten a lot of bad press, but absolutely all of it's true to be false. We haven't got anything against anybody from any country. We only ask that people obey our laws when they come to our country and every country has got a right to ask the same of anybody that wants to come to their country. Just having a couple million people a year stumble across your border is not right. It's dangerous for both sides involved. It's illegal. It has been for years, always as far as I know. And ever since we became a country anyway, we've had immigration laws in the last few

years. It seems like a lot of folks just want to ignore them. Now we've been at war for four and a half years now. And we have, in fact, just yesterday, there was a bomb threat here at this university. At some point this is not going to be a threat. It's not going to be real. And only there won't be a warning. It'll just be an explosion. Many people have called your group a vigilantes, even the president referred to your group as vigilantes. And he said that people patrolling the border should be professionals. They should not be civilians out there. What's your response to that? Well, my response to that is the original men or amateurs too. And if the government's not willing to step up and do what it is supposed to do, which is protect our borders, and we as citizens have the right to do it ourselves. Some of your members were armed with firearms. Why is that necessary? I know you had the rights under the Constitution to bear arms, but why was it necessary to carry firearms along the border during your patrols if you weren't physically apprehending illegal

immigrants? Well, now we have not apprehended any illegals. We feel that they might want a weapon for self protection, there are snakes and other animals out there, and some people feel a little at ease. There is danger out there. There's no doubt about that. Our policy is a strict no-contact policy, and we adhere to that. There is a remote possibility though that something could happen. I personally do not walk around with one. A lot of people, most for the most part, most of the people that I've seen on the border were not armed. And it's estimated here in this country that there are recent estimates that there are at least 11 million illegal immigrants living in the United States. Many people blame the illegal immigrants, some lawmakers, for putting a financial burden on social services like hospitals, even schools. It's obvious that there is a problem here that there is a burden to taxpayers, to a degree.

How do you suppose that we fix this problem? There are some of your ideas. To fix it? Or to at least maybe curb the problem. Curve the problem. Well, the thing is that the government and everyone saying these things are not also realizing that an illegal immigrant is working and does not get reimbursed, or the taxes that he pays that are taking out of his check, whether he's using a different social security, whether he's using a false social security, taxes are still being taken. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about the economic impact that illegal immigrants do have in this country. Mr. Norris, do you believe that illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans? Yes, I do, to a certain extent. I'd also like to reiterate that the amount of taxes I believe that these folks are haven't taken out of their paycheck. Not even going to come close to one visit to the emergency room. I mean, we've all experienced what hospital care costs these days. I was at a meeting just last summer where our congressman Steve Pierce was at the hospital,

and he was thanked for his participation in bringing, I believe, $30 million into the area to cover indigent costs. Now this is money that's directly out of the taxpayers' pocket. Yeah, I believe that there's a direct relationship between job loss and people coming into work. I see big corporations like Walmart who have been caught numerous times now hiring illegals and employing illegals, and it's not that they don't have the resources to pay a decent wage because they do. Let's talk about those employers that do hire illegal immigrants. There is a bill in the Senate right now that would impose penalties against employers who do hire illegal immigrants. One Minuteman said in the crossing documentary that employers who are repeatedly caught hiring illegals should face criminal charges. Do you think that's fair, Mrs. Sopian? No, it's not. Again, we're talking about a country that's right next door to us. So you're saying it's okay to hire illegal immigrants?

No, it's not okay. But again, what's being said on this side is upsetting people on the other side, and there's a lot of people across the border. And if we are concerned about others coming into our country to do terrorist acts or whatever, you don't want Mexicans from Mexico to come in and start a war with us also. They're too close. We're involved in Iraq. It's across an ocean. They're not at our prector. Mr. Norris, do you have a response to that? Well, I'd just like to say that hiring illegals has been illegal. Forever. I employ now. It's been not in the wings and people have looked the other way, but hiring people that are in this country to work is illegal, and it has been. What we need to do is simply enforce the laws that are on the books. When you go for a job, they ask you for identification. They ask you for your education or background.

They ask you for several different things on an employment application. Shouldn't one of the things that an employer would want to know is whether you're in the country legally or illegally? I would. Let's talk about the idea of building more fences along the border. This bill that's in the Senate right now would place 700 miles of fences along the U.S. Mexico border. Some people are calling for a long fence, even a ditch along the whole 2,000 mile stretch of the border. Do you think that's a good idea? They've been fences up before, and they've been torn down. They will find a way to come across. The thing is, if they don't have a job and they don't have money, then they will start stealing from our homes, and you know, I'm not from Mexico. I was born here in the U.S. I just listened to the people that we help, and all they want is to make a living. But if they're going to not have food and see somebody else, have all the luxuries in their home, they're going to start committing criminal crimes.

We're not going to get rid of them. How are we going to find 11 million Mexicans that are here undocumented? And how are we still going to be here? Their health might affect and be contagious to us, to our children here in the U.S., to in the schools. We need to take care of them eviculy and financially. They'll find a way to work. And usually, because I have talked to young people that are U.S. citizens, they don't want to do these works. They don't want to go out there to 110 degrees and pick onions and chili that we happen to love. That's not going to happen. That's back breaking. Yes, maybe Walmart has hired undocumented. But guess what? That's another job that they don't want. All our kids want to have a nice sitting job, not where you have to push cards and work at Walmart.

Walmart is not easy, you have to be stuck. It's hard work there. There's a lot of people. Mr. Norris, what's your response? OK, I would like to talk about situation in Mexico. You know, it is bad. I've been to Mexico. I traveled around Mexico quite a bit in my life. The United States cannot continue to be a safety valve for other countries to cannot seem to get their act together. Now, if Mexico was a barren moon scape with no resources, I would understand some of the problem, but Mexico is one of the best pieces of real estate on the planet. They have mineral resources, they have fire land, they have some of the best beaches in the world. They got lots of oil. There's no reason for Mexico to be in the position that it's in. It should be one of the wealthiest nations in the entire hemisphere, not one of the poorest. What do you think should be done right now along the border then? I think that the fence is a good idea, maybe not a whole 2,000 mile fence, but I think in certain areas where the traffic is very heavy, it will work. Now, I'm not talking about chain link fence like it's been put up in the past, I believe what they're talking about is something similar to a barrier like the Israelis put up.

And that does work. The areas in the West Bank that have had this fence put up, the terrorist infiltration in the Israel has been cut to just about zero through these areas. Now, I don't particularly like the idea, and I wish there was another solution, but half the problem is on the other side of the border, not on this side. Mexico needs to get its own house in order and become part of the 21st century. Ms. Sopian, do you believe that border security does need to be increased on the border? Oh, yes, I agree. To what point? I mean, what do you think needs to, when it comes to border security? Have you thought about that? No, not really. The thing is, it's been happening for so many years, so many people have come across that way and have gotten their residency. There was amnesty. I mean, they're still, it's their dream. I can't relate to them. I mean, I can sit here and tell you stories, you know, experience and people I've worked with.

I can't, you know, because I'm in the middle of the river. I was born in the U.S., I'm dark, I look Mexican, I can speak Spanish, but I was raised here. My parents were raised here. I'm not considered a first generation Mexican. And that's how we're classified. If I go live in Mexico, I'm a Porsche, because I don't belong there either. But I do know that they come here just with a hope. Let's talk about that. They come here with the hope of getting a job. It's hope by some lawmakers that there would be a plan that would soon be passed and signed by the president who is also calling for this plan to give undocumented workers a temporary visas to work in this country on a temporary basis. Do you believe that's a good idea, Mr. Norris? No, I don't. I believe it's just an amnesty by another name. I personally think that our laws have been broken and trampled on for so long that nobody has any respect for us anymore. And I'm for one am tired of it.

You know, I think that our borders should be controlled, and the people that are here illegally. I like the proposal that one of our prospective candidates for the Senate seat, Mr. Pfeiffer from Santa Fe, has been proposed and he proposes that the illegals that are here self-report, those that do will be given the temporary state, not an amnesty. And then those that do not will be deported. And we need to come to a conclusion in this country of what our needs as Americans are, and we need to pass the laws that will deal with our needs. Other countries may or may not like what our rules and regulations and laws are, but there are rules and regulations and laws, and it's up to us to decide what they're going to be. And they need to be based on our needs. If we need folks to come in, fine, let's figure out how to go ahead and change the laws and do that. But to just say, okay, we're going to give you a guest worker amnesty. And I think the number they're kicking around is like a six year. Well, that gives people enough time to get a whole new life and family and kids and everything started.

And they're certainly not going to be deported after that happens. What's up, Ian? Well, I guess what we're really talking about here is that we're going to make these people just kind of disappear. And since it hasn't been able to be accomplished, you know, when you have lived, and that's, I've asked people because I really have never really made it go. I said, why when you come over here, you change the way you do things. You said, well, because we don't have to fight. If you've had to fight for that piece of bread, since you're little, you get these skills. I've been able to, you can fake things, lie, do whatever, pay, you know, go through the remote desert to get to this place here. Well, let's go back to my question here. Do you support a temporary guest worker program? No. You don't? Because then they're going to be shipped back, I agree. You don't think it will work?

No, because it's temporary. Okay. There's been a lot of talk of people accusing your group as being racist. That your group is afraid that illegal immigrants are taking over this country, that you're afraid that the minority will become the majority. Do you fear that illegal immigration is changing the social climate of our country? Oh, I think it has to a certain extent. My concern is the way our country and not just on the illegal immigration, but on virtually all the hot button topics that exist today has become so politically correct that our politicians, for example, are scared to death to make a right decision concerning the overall benefit for the American public. They're concerned about what this group thinks, they're concerned about what that group thinks. And there's an old expression that when you try to make everybody happy, you end up making nobody happy. We had a little discussion a couple of weeks ago, Bob Wright and myself met with our congressman Steve Pierce.

And he sat there and told us that his constituency consisted of this percentage of these people and this percentage of these people and this percentage of these people, and whereas he supported pretty much most of what we wanted, he could not come out and endorse us because basically because he was afraid he wouldn't get reelected. And I'm sure that's exactly what was on his mind. He also sat there and told us that what our border ends up doing depends on what Mexico ends up doing. And to me, that's like telling me that me locking my front door of my house to keep the burglars out, depending on what the neighbor across the street is going to do. I'm going to do everything I can. Let's talk about that. During the crossing documentary, you mentioned the last thing that you wanted to see was a backpack nuke from going off in Tucson. Yeah. How possible do you think that is? We're being out on our borders for a couple of, well, living here all my life and actually being down there steadily now for April, last April in this last October and many times in between, anybody can bring anything they want across our southern border. There is absolutely nothing to stop them.

Some of the areas I was in last October, I didn't see any border patrol out there for days. Ms. Appi, how do you think Hispanics here in this country should contribute to the dialogue? Well, I think we need to have a voice because we're kind of in the middle. It's a tug of war. I am a U.S. citizen and I believe that we should protect our country. But give me solutions to help Mexico change their culture and their norms. I mean, over there, the rich get richer and the poor get poor. And they're not willing to help each other. And they hear that over here, there's all this help. And we're going to provide for them. Do you think it should be up to the United States to help Mexico with his economic problems? Well, I guess we went to Iraq to fix Iraq. Mexico is right across a little river that has not very much water. Excuse me. If we think there are problems, then Mexico fixed them too.

You know, this issue is so polarizing. There's a lot that you two disagree on. Is there anything that you think that you would be able to agree on on this immigration issue? Oh, I think we both agree that there's a serious border problem. Something needs to be done about it. I think we can also agree probably with the amendment. We're portrayed in a very bad light when we first got started. And it wasn't us that portrayed us that way. It was the rest of a lot of media. You know, we were portrayed as cooks, nuts, hillbillies, red necks, whatever. And that's not true. Some of the folks that I've seen down there who showed up on the border have been very patriotic mom and pop ties, most of which are my age older, most of a lot of retired folks, a lot of ex-military veterans, a lot of veterans. And the last thing anybody wants is any real trouble on the border. But what we have proven is that when there is a presence on the border, even a fairly modest one, it'll stop. You know, they don't want to confront us anymore and we want to confront them. As far as Mexico, yes, there's nothing that I would like to see more than Mexico become

a first-rate nation. I'm not sure exactly how to go about doing that. But there is a climate of corruption there and has been for a long time. The rich get richer, just like you said, and the poor get poor. I used to go to Kino when I was a kid with my granddad and we used to fish down there. This was in the late 50s and early 60s. My granddad used to make two or three trips a year down the Kino and he got to know the guy down there that owned the local Cantina and I guess a couple other little buildings in town and sometimes he'd rent one of the buildings from the guy and they'd just camp there. And he got to know the sky pretty good and then he said, we talked and I asked him one time. He said, why is Mexico like it is? You know, it's a rich country and the guy just told me he said, well, I could go out and try to make something but you know what, somebody just come by here with a gun and take it from me. It's not the end. Do you have any response to that? Well, you know, and we do agree on how they were portrayed.

I really have nothing personally against a minimum but did you at any time, and I don't know who are the minimum by the median stuff, it seems like they're all white? Did anybody recruit people like me? I am very much for the U.S., anybody that is Hispanic, a U.S. born has served in the military. We have a lot of Hispanic males that served in the military. I believe Mr. Bob Wright, the president of the New Mexico Amendment Corps did say that some of his recruits were of a Hispanic background. Well, that's all the time we have. Thank you very much for joining us and giving us your opinions. Thank you very much for listening to each other. Our night on Crossing, we will further explore the role of the minute men and those that were monitoring their activities. The American Civil Liberties Union, until then, I'm Jeremy Haul of Good Night. Thank you for joining us and giving us your opinions and those that are Hispanic, a U.S.

for joining us and giving us your opinions and those that are Hispanic, a U.S. for joining us and giving us your opinions and those that are Hispanic, a U.S.