New Mexico in Focus; 526; Plazas / Top 5-1 Stories of 2011

>> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS, OUR COUNTDOWN CONTINUES AS THE LINE LOOKS AT THE YEAR'S FIVE BIGGEST STORIES. >> PART OF THE TRADE-OFF, YOU KNOW YOU HAVE MAYBE LESS SPACE, LESS INDIVIDUAL PRIVACY, BUT YOU'VE GOT THE LIFE OF THE STREET AND THE LIFE OF THE PUBLIC SPACE. >> PLUS, UNM ARCHITECTURE PROFESSOR CHRIS WILSON ON WHY THE PLAZA HAS BECOME SUCH A KEY PART OF LIFE IN THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT. NEW MEXICO INFOCUS STARTS NOW! >> 2011 BROUGHT HUNDREDS OF INTERESTING HEADLINES. SOME STARTED HERE IN NEW MEXICO, OTHER BIG STORIES WERE NATIONAL TRENDS THAT POPPED UP LOCALLY. OUR LOOK AT THE YEAR'S TOP 10 STORIES CONTINUES THIS WEEK WITH THE FINAL FIVE. WE'LL ALSO TALK WITH TWO UNM PROFESSORS WHO SPENT YEARS COLLABORATING ON A NEW BOOK ABOUT A NEW MEXICO TRADITION: BUILDING PLAZAS. WHY ARE THEY SO PREVALENT, AND WILL THEY REMAIN IMPORTANT IN THE FUTURE? ONCE AGAIN, THERE'S MORE NEWS THAN MINUTES IN THE

NEXT HOUR, SO LET'S GET GOING. >> LET'S GET SOME INTRODUCTIONS BEFORE WE GET TO OUR TOP STORIES OF 2011. AS ALWAYS, ENVIRONMENTAL ATTORNEY LAURA SANCHEZ IS HERE, ALONG WITH REGULAR PANELIST SOCIAL MEDIA CONSULTANT SOPHIE MARTIN. WE'RE JOINED ONCE MORE BY FREELANCE JOURNALIST LAURA PASKUS, AND BY ROB NIKOLEWSKI OF NEW MEXICO WATCHDOG, AN ONLINE PROJECT FUNDED BY THE RIO GRANDE FOUNDATION. ALL RIGHT, IT'S BEEN A STRANGE YEAR FOR THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO HOLD COURT IN NEW MEXICO. THE STATE'S JUDICIARY HAS SEEN ARRESTS OF JUDGES ON PROSTITUTION CHARGES, DRUNK DRIVING, AND THEN THE ONGOING SAGA OF JUDGE MIKE MURPHY CHARGED WITH FOUR FELONIES, INCLUDING SOLICITING A BRIBE. SOPHIE, IT'S ALMOST AS IF THERE'S SOME KIND OF VIRUS RUNNING THROUGH JUDICIAL CIRCLES, SOME KIND OF DISEASE. THESE THINGS TEND TO WAX AND WANE, THEY RISE AND FALL, AND FOLKS SOMETIMES DON'T TAKE THESE THINGS SERIOUSLY. >> I GUESS IT FEELS THAT WAY, THAT THERE'S BEEN THIS BIG CLUSTER. THE MURPHY SITUATION HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME. I THINK IT'S A REMINDER THAT OUR JUDICIARY, THE PEOPLE IN

THERE, ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND SUBJECT TO THE SAME ISSUES THAT THE REST OF THE POPULATION ARE. I THINK ONE OF THE REAL CHALLENGES IS THAT WHEN YOU ARE A JUDGE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE HEARD, WHEN YOU ARE A JUDGE, THERE ARE RELATIVELY FEW PEERS. AND SO LOOKING TO YOUR PEERS CAN BE JUST MORE CHALLENGING. I'M NOT PUTTING THAT WELL. >> BUT I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. >> YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT ISOLATED. >> THAT CAME UP HERE AT THIS TABLE, AS A MATTER OF FACT, THIS IDEA OF BEING JUDGED BY YOUR PEERS. THE PUBLIC IS THE ULTIMATE ARBITRATOR, OF COURSE, IN THE NEXT CYCLE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE MANY PEOPLE VOTING JUDGESHIPS BASED ON PERFORMANCE, EXCEPT FOR WHAT THE BAR ASSOCIATION -- >> IT'S INTERESTING, AND WE DIDN'T BRING THIS UP IN THE INTRO, BUT LAST YEAR FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE BAR ASSOCIATION SAID, LISTEN, THERE ARE A HANDFUL OF JUDGES WHO WE THINK YOU SHOULD VOTE OUT, AND THAT HAD NOT HAPPENED BEFORE. AND I THINK THAT THAT WAS

SURPRISING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE. BUT ALSO SURPRISING IS THAT IT'S HARD TO REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF PEOPLE'S THINKING ABOUT JUDGES. THERE TENDS TO BE A RUBBER STAMP THERE. >> EXACTLY. ROB, AGAIN, A ELECTING JUDGES. IS THAT THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE, OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE? >> I THINK IT IS. I TALKED TO DENNIS JONTZ RIGHT AFTER THE MICHAEL MURPHY THING HAPPENED, AND DENNIS JONTZ USED TO BE THE HEAD OF THE BAR ASSOCIATION SAID THAT HE THINKS A BIG REASON FOR THE LACK OF CONFIDENCE PEOPLE HAVE IN JUDGES IS BECAUSE OF THE FUNDRAISING THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO GET ELECTED AND REELECTED. >> AND IT'S GOING UP. >> RIGHT. IN FACT, JONTZ SUGGESTED TO ME THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE A COMMISSION MADE UP OF APPOINTEES BY THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, THE STATE SUPREME COURT, AS WELL AS REPRESENTATIVES AND DISTRICT JUDGES, AND ALSO MAYBE SOME INPUT FROM THE HOUSE AND SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEES. I THINK THERE REALLY IS A CRISIS IN CONFIDENCE THERE. I MEAN, WHEN YOU GO BEFORE A JUDGE, THEY SHOULD BE HELD TO AN EVEN HIGHER STANDARD,

BECAUSE IT'S ONE THING IF I WANT A CERTAIN BILL PASSED THAT'S GOING TO HELP ME, OR HELP MY CAUSE, OR WHATEVER. BUT IF I'M IN FRONT OF A JUDGE, I MIGHT END UP GOING TO JAIL, AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE JUDGE WHO IS IN FRONT OF ME IS ABOVE REPROACH. AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS STATE DON'T THINK SO. >> A LOT OF FOLKS WOULDN'T ARGUE THAT, WHAT ROB JUST SAID, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, A LOT OF FOLKS WOULD ARGUE THAT APPOINTMENTS IS NOT THE WAY TO GO. WHERE DO YOU FALL ON THAT? ARE APPOINTMENTS THE SOLUTION HERE, OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE? >> I MEAN, RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A HYBRID OF SORTS. THERE IS AN APPOINTMENT PROCESS. THERE IS A COMMISSION THAT'S ALREADY SET UP, AND APPOINTEES FROM BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES SIT ON THAT AND VET THE CANDIDATES BEFORE THEY GET RECOMMENDED TO THE GOVERNOR TO BE APPOINTED. SO IT'S A HYBRID KIND OF THING, BECAUSE THEY THEN HAVE TO RUN FOR RETENTION. A LOT OF OTHER STATES DO THAT SAME PROCESS. I JUST THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, A FEW OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN, UNFORTUNATELY, CAUGHT UP IN THESE SCANDALS HAVE, I THINK, REALLY PUT A BLACK EYE TO THE REST OF THE

JUDGES. I MEAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF JUDGES THAT ARE GOOD JUDGES THAT WORK REALLY HARD, THAT HAVE FULL DOCKETS ALL THE TIME, AND ARE VERY DEPENDABLE. BUT, UNFORTUNATELY, THEY LIVE IN PARTICULAR IN A BUBBLE. ALL OF THEIR -- EVERYTHING THAT THEY DO IS UP FOR DEBATE. AND I THINK THIS IS JUST UNFORTUNATELY A YEAR WHERE WE FOUND A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH SERIOUS PROBLEMS. BUT THAT'S NOT THE ONLY -- IT'S NOT UNIQUE TO NEW MEXICO. WE SAW THAT JUDGE IN TEXAS, THE BEATING OF HIS DAUGHTER AND THE VIDEO OF THAT, AND NOW HE'S FACING SUSPENSION, AS WELL. THESE ISSUES THAT ARE CURRENTLY STILL HAPPENING GET HANDLED SWIFTLY. >> YEAH. THIS IS A TOUGH ONE TO KIND OF GET YOUR HEAD AROUND, ISN'T IT? THESE GUYS ARE SAYING, THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS, THINGS HAPPEN NOW AND AGAIN, MAYBE IT'S NOT A BIG SYSTEMIC PROBLEM. WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON IT? IS IT BIGGER THAN IT ACTUALLY IS, OR IS IT IT OUT TO BE SOMETIMES? >> I DON'T KNOW.

I'VE REALLY STRUGGLED WITH THINKING ABOUT IT. THESE ARE REALLY DIFFERENT CASES; THE DRUNK DRIVING CARE, THE PROSTITUTION CASE, AND A BRIBERY CASE. AND I EVEN FEEL LIKE A BRIBERY CASE, THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER TWO OFFENSES. AND I MIGHT BE STEPPING INTO SOMETHING HERE, BUT I HAVE TO WONDER IF THERE WERE MORE WOMEN ON THE BENCH, IF WE WOULD BE SEEING THESE SAME SORTS OF THINGS. >> THAT'S REASONABLE TO ASK, OF COURSE. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT IDEA? >> I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN A REAL PUSH FOR DIVERSITY IN THE JUDICIARY, THAT IT COULD GO FURTHER. NOT JUST GENDER DIVERSITY, BUT ALSO ETHNIC DIVERSITY AND CULTURAL DIVERSITY. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT LAURA MENTIONED THAT REALLY I THINK IS AN IMPORTANT REMINDER IS THAT THE CASELOAD IS ASTONISHING, AND THE JUDICIAL STAFF, THE JUDGES, THEMSELVES, ARE WORKING AT AN INCREDIBLE PACE. THERE'S AN INCREDIBLE QUANTITY OF CASES UP IN FRONT OF THEM. AND, YOU KNOW, WE ASK A GREAT DEAL OF THEM IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE IT'S HARD TO CUT THEM SOME MORE

SUPPORT. >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT THERE. NO. 4 THIS YEAR: THE LARGEST WILDFIRE IN THE HISTORY OF THE STATE. JUST A DECADE AFTER CERRO GRANDE SCORCHED THE FOREST IN AND AROUND LOS ALAMOS, THE LAS CONCHAS FIRE DID THE SAME, IF NOT WORSE. IN THE END, AN ASPEN TREE THAT FELL ON A POWER LINE WAS DEEMED TO BE THE CULPRIT. LAURA SANCHEZ, INTERESTING IRONY THERE. THERE WAS A TREE-THINNING BINGE, I SEEM TO RECALL, RIGHT AFTER CERRO GRANDE, BY THE WAY. I JUST WANTED TO THROW THAT IN, AND THAT HOMES MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAVED. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT WORSE, IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT. HAVE WE TAKEN ENOUGH ABATEMENT STEPS HERE? BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE AFTER THESE TWO FIRES, WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE THIS WHOLE THING OUT, IF NOT FOR THE LABS, CERTAINLY. >> WELL, THERE'S ARGUMENTS I THINK THERE'S PEOPLE WHO THINK IT'S MORE IMPORTANT, OR VERY NECESSARY TO DO MORE CUTTING, SOME OF THAT THINNING OF THE FOREST. OTHERS THINK IT'S MORE OF A DROUGHT ISSUE, AND A LOT OF THE TREES ARE JUST SIMPLY NOT GETTING THE MOISTURE THEY'VE HAD THE PAST, AND IT'S KINDLING OUT THERE.

AND I THINK THE TRUTH IS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS. BUT I THINK BEING AWARE THAT THESE ARE VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS THAT HAVE CONSEQUENCES, LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES, NOT JUST POTENTIALLY RUINING AN ENTIRE BUSINESS, AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY, OR A LOT OR A PART OF A PUEBLO, BUT ALSO JUST THE POTENTIAL INSURANCE RISK. THERE'S A LOT OF INSURANCE RISK TO THESE HOMES AND PROPERTIES. SPECIES, YOU KNOW, THAT COULD DIE OUT, HABITAT THAT'S BEING CLEARED OUT. AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO COLLECTIVELY COME UP WITH A PLAN TO ADDRESS THESE FOREST FIRE POTENTIALS. AND WITH REGARD TO LANL, IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE STARTING, ALSO. THEY'VE SORT OF GOTTEN A SCARE INTO THEM, TOO. ALSO, TO FIGURE OUT AN EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS PLAN, BECAUSE THE IDEA OF LANL BEING THREATENED, AS CLOSE AS IT WAS, SHOULD MAKE EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY, IN THE WORLD, CONCERNED GIVEN THE TYPE OF WORK THAT THEY DO. >> ABSOLUTELY. ON AN ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE, THERE'S THE THING ABOUT THE RUNOFF, LAURA PASKUS, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL -- THE MENTIONING OF HABITAT, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. ARE YOU SENSING THAT WE'RE

TAKING ENOUGH OF THAT SIDE OF THIS ISSUE SERIOUSLY ENOUGH, THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF HOW WE COME BACK >> I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK THE JEMEZ IS A REALLY SPECIAL CASE, BECAUSE WE ALREADY KNEW THAT THE JEMEZ WAS SORT OF A LABORATORY FOR SEEING WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, AND THE FACT THAT CERRO GRANDE WAS SO HUGE. IT BLEW UP TO 44,000-ACRES IN ONE DAY -- I MEAN, THE LAS CONCHAS FIRE, WHEREAS CERRO GRANDE WAS ONLY 48,000-ACRES TOTAL. I THINK THAT IT'S A REAL VISION OF WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE SEEING IN THE SOUTHWEST IN THE COMING YEARS, AND WE BETTER GET A HANDLE, NOT ONLY ON HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE AREN'T BUILDING IN THE WILD AND URBAN INTERFACE, BUT ALSO TO THINK ABOUT LONG-TERM -- WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE THE CONIFER FORESTS COMING BACK, MAYBE. WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE SPECIES THAT CAN RECOVER FROM SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT. >> YOU DO A LOT OF WORK COVERING THE DROUGHT ISSUE, AND YOU JUST SAID WE COULD EXPECT -- IS THIS THE NEW NORMAL FOR EVERY SUMMER HERE IN NEW MEXICO, LARGE RAGING WILDFIRES? >> IT MAY NOT BE EVERY SUMMER, BUT I THINK THE LONG-TERM, LOOKING AT WHAT

OUR CLIMATIC RECORD HAS BEEN, AND WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IN THE FUTURE, I THINK THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET READY FOR INCREASINGLY BIGGER WILDFIRES, MORE STRESS ON WATER SYSTEMS. >> SURE. THE OTHER THING ABOUT IT, SOPHIE, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE CHATTER DOWN HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, PEOPLE WORRIED AND THINKING BACK TO THE BOSQUE FIRES AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING, SHOULD WE BE DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY IN THE STATE TO GET READY FOR THIS? POINT HERE. THIS COULD BE A PART OF US. >> I THINK THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, AS HUMAN BEINGS WE CAN BE SORT OF SHORT-TERM THINKERS. SO THE FURTHER WE GET AWAY FROM A BIG FIRE INCIDENT, OR A BIG FIRE SEASON LIKE WE SAW THIS PAST YEAR, THE FURTHER WE GET AWAY, THE SAFER WE FEEL, AND THE LESS LIKELY WE ARE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. THERE'S KIND OF A SHORT WINDOW TO GET EVERYONE, OR A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE MOBILIZED. YEAH, THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO. THERE'S A GREAT, BUT NOT HUGE PROGRAM OUT IN THE EAST MOUNTAINS, TO THE EAST OF

ALBUQUERQUE, THAT WORKS WITH HOMEOWNERS ON THINNING ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, SETTING FIREBREAKS, MAKING SURE THEY DON'T HAVE VEGETATION TOO CLOSE TO THEIR HOMES. I KNOW THAT IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, THERE'S A BIG PUSH FOR THAT SORT OF THING. KIND OF A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN SPACE IN CONCERT WITH OTHER COMMUNITY PLAYERS. AND IT WOULD BE GREAT TO SEE AN EXPANSION OF THAT HERE THROUGHOUT THE STATE, WHERE PEOPLE ARE REALLY LOOKING AT THEIR PERSONAL ENVIRONMENTS AND THE ENVIRONMENTS AROUND THEM, AND SAYING, HOW DO I CONTRIBUTE? >> I THINK THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING AT, ROB, WITH THAT QUESTION, THAT THERE IS SOME HOMEOWNER RESPONSIBILITY HERE. >> YES. >> WE'VE HEARD OVER AND OVER ABOUT CLEARING. BUT A LOT OF FOLKS DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS. DOES IT MEAN FIVE FEET? TEN FEET? 25 FEET? DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN? THERE'S A WHOLE EDUCATION PROCESS ON. >> IT WOULD BE GOOD IF EVERY HOMEOWNER -- I DON'T KNOW. I LIVE OUT IN EL DORADO. THERE'S A LOT OF EMPTY SPACE OUT THERE. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS TO TOUCH UPON HERE, AND CHANNEL 4 DID A VERY GOOD STORY SHORTLY AFTER THE FIRE ABOUT HOW THE NATIONAL GUARD HAD PLANES AT THE READY TO DO SOME DROPS, BUT WAS NEVER CALLED BECAUSE IT

SEEMED LIKE THERE WAS A TURF BATTLE WITH THE FOREST SERVICE. AND THAT'S SOMETHING, LONG-TERM, THAT I THINK NEEDS TO BE APPROACHED. AND I REMEMBER TALKING A NUMBER OF MONTHS AGO TO A RETIRED SCIENTIST UP IN LOS ALAMOS WHO BROUGHT UP A VERY INTERESTING OUTSIDE-THE-BOX SUGGESTION. HE SAID, WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE AIR FORCE IN CHARGE OF THESE THINGS? YOU'VE GOT KIRTLAND. YOU COULD COME OUT AND DO LOTS OF WATER DROPS, WHATEVER. AND I'M SURE THAT EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE SAYING, WELL, THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK, AND THIS ISN'T GOING TO WORK, BUT AT LEAST LET'S HAVE A CONVERSATION AND GET SOME COORDINATION. BECAUSE WHETHER OR NOT -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN ARGUE WHY THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING, AND IF THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING, OR WHATEVER. WE SHOULD BE PREPARED, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT GOES BEYOND THAT ISSUE. >> ABSOLUTELY. UP NEXT, PLAZAS IN NEW MEXICO. BUILT FOR TOURISTS, OR BUILT FOR LOCAL LIFE? >> THE AREA AROUND SANTA FE AREA WHERE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO MAKE DO WITH A LOT LESS WATER AND WE CAN

AND SHOULD BE LOOKING TO THOSE AREAS AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, BROWN IS KIND OF BEAUTIFUL. >> PLAZAS ARE A PART OF LIFE IN NEW MEXICO. MANY OF US NEVER STOP TO THINK ABOUT. YET AS OUR NEXT GUESTS WILL SAY, NEW MEXICO DOES THE PUBLIC PLAZA BETTER THAN NEARLY ANY STATE IN THE COUNTRY. WE'RE JOINED BY TWO UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO PROFESSORS. CHRIS WILSON OF THE SCHOOL OF ARCHITECTURE AND PLANNING. AND MIGUEL GANDERT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATION AND JOURNALISM. THEY'VE COLLABORATED ON A NEW BOOK, "THE PLAZAS OF NEW MEXICO," OUT THIS FALL. LET ME ASK YOU A FIRST QUESTION, CHRIS. WE DO THIS WELL. WE'VE DONE THIS WELL. BUT THIS DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, CERTAINLY. HOW IS IT THAT WE GOT PLAZAS SO RIGHT HERE? WHAT INFORMED THE IDEA OF PLAZAS HERE? THE LONGEST TRADITION OF PLAZAS IN THE COUNTRY WITH THE PUEBLO PLAZAS. 700, 900 A.D. YOU'VE GOT VERY CLEAR PLAZAS AND COMMUNITIES COMPACT AND DEVELOPED AROUND THEM. WHEN THE PUEBLO PEOPLE COME TO THE RIO GRANDE, THEY

BUILD LESS FORMALLY, MORE THEIR BUILDINGS ACTUALLY ECHO THE SURROUNDING TERRACE; MESA TOPS, THE MOUNTAIN TOPS. >> MIGUEL GANDERT, YOU ALSO DID THE PHOTOGRAPHY IN THE BOOK, BUT THERE'S OTHER ILLUSTRATIONS AND OLD PICTURES AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING. WHAT SURPRISED YOU WHEN YOU WENT OUT WITH A THIRD EYE? IS THE WAY THE BOOK'S LAID OUT, AND THE WAY THE BOOK WAS CONCEPTUALIZED IN THE BEGINNING. I'M NOT AN ARCHITECTURAL PHOTOGRAPHER. I'M A PEOPLE PHOTOGRAPHER. AND WHAT WE DECIDED TO DO IS, I USED A PANORAMIC CAMERA THAT ENABLED ME TO LOOK AT SPACE AND HOW SPACE IS DEFINED. AND WHAT BECAME REMARKABLE TO ME IS MOST OF THE TIME, OR A LOT OF THE TIME, WE WERE PHOTOGRAPHING HOW PEOPLE USE THE SPACE, WHETHER IT WAS RELIGIOUS RITUALS AND COMMUNITY CELEBRATIONS, WHICH THERE ARE A NUMBER OF IN THE BOOK, BUT ALSO JUST WHEN PEOPLE CAME. A FARMERS MARKET IN SOCORRO, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF PLAZA RATS, YOUNG KIDS HANGING OUT IN THE PLAZA IN SANTA FE, AND HOW THESE DIFFERENT

THINGS COME TOGETHER, AND HOW PEOPLE USE THE SPACE. THE BIG QUESTION, AND THE EXCITING THING FOR ME IS, THESE SPACES WERE REALLY ABOUT COMMUNITY. THE IDEA PARTLY OF THE BOOK, AND WHAT'S SO IMPORTANT ABOUT THE BOOK, IS HOW YOU CREATE THESE SPACES THAT THEN BECOME CENTER, OR FOCAL POINTS TO DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, AND HOW THAT BECOMES CONTESTED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. >> DID YOU FIND ANY COMMONALITY BETWEEN THOSE CONSTITUENCIES AND THOSE COMMUNITIES? ANY COMMON THREADS OF USE AND ATTITUDE AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING? >> NOT REALLY COMMON THREADS, OTHER THAN -- WELL, IN THE HISPANIC PLAZAS, THEY'RE A CENTER PLACE OF RITUAL, AND RITUAL IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT. THAT'S HARDER TO GET AT BECAUSE MOST NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES RESPECTFULLY DON'T ALLOW PHOTOGRAPHY TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, AND YOU HAVE TO NOT -- YOU KNOW, WE RESPECTED THOSE THINGS COMPLETELY. BUT IT'S REALLY ABOUT HOW COMMUNITIES USE THEIR SPACE. WE FOUND -- I THINK I FOUND

A LOT IN THE ANGLO TOWN SQUARES, WHICH ARE ALSO AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS BOOK. THERE WAS CIRCUMNAVIGATING. I MEAN, THE CAR WAS A VERY PROMINENT THING. PARADES WERE REALLY IMPORTANT. AND YET, NOT QUITE AS MUCH HANGING OUT THAT I SAW IN A LOT OF THE HISPANIC PLAZAS. >> INTERESTING. >> AND THEN, OF COURSE, IN THE HISPANIC PLAZAS, THE PROMINENCE OF A RELIGIOUS SYMBOL, A CHURCH NEARBY OR ON THE PLAZA ITSELF. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT SANTA FE, THE CATHEDRAL IS A SIGHT LINE, AND PROBABLY AT ONE POINT -- AND CHRIS IS A BETTER PERSON TO ASK ABOUT THIS -- THE PLAZA WAS MUCH BIGGER AT ONE POINT, AND THE CHURCH WOULD HAVE BEEN AN ANCHOR THERE. >> CHRIS, HISTORY IS FRAUGHT WITH ALL KINDS OF THINGS. PROBLEMS GOT SOLVED, SOMETIMES SOME VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEMS. AND WHAT I'M LEADING UP TO IS, WE WOULD BE REMISS TO THINK THAT ONLY GOOD THINGS AND CEREMONIAL THINGS AND PLEASANT THINGS HAPPENED IN THESE PLAZAS. I HAVE TO IMAGINE A LOT OF OTHER TYPES OF THINGS WENT ON, AS WELL. BECAUSE THE PLAZA, THE

COMMUNITY PUBLIC SPACE, IN A SENSE IS THE FOCUS AND THE CRUCIBLE OF PEOPLE'S ASPIRATIONS, THEIR STRUGGLES. THE SANTA FE PLAZA IS REALLY THE ULTIMATE. IT REALLY HAS A KIND OF LAYERING OF HISTORY AND GRAVITY THAT'S ANALOGOUS TO EUROPEAN CITIES. IT'S BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH. IT'S THE PLACE WHERE PUEBLO INDIANS, IN OPEN REVOLT IN 1680, CONVERGED AND DROVE THE SPANISH OUT. IT'S A PLACE THAT'S BEEN OCCUPIED BY THREE DIFFERENT ARMIES. BY THE U.S. ARMY COMING IN IN 1846, BY THE CONFEDERATE ARMY COMING. A GROUP OF UTE INDIANS, AGGRIEVED BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN SOME DEATHS ON THE FRONTIER OF NORTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO, CAME DOWN, YOU KNOW, AND THEY HAD THEIR PETITION FOR REDRESS. AND THAT'S AN INTERESTING ONE, BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO STORIES.

THE GOVERNOR REPORTS A STORY THAT THE UTES ATTACKED HIM AND HIS MEN, AND THEY HAD TO FIGHT THEM AND BATTLE THEM OUT OF TOWN. WELL, THERE'S AN ORAL TRADITION THAT LIVES ON ON THE NEW MEXICO-COLORADO BORDER THAT SAYS, NO, THE GOVERNOR HID TROOPS BEHIND A TAPESTRY, AND THEY FELL UPON THE DELEGATION. SO NOT ONLY WAS THERE WARFARE THERE, BUT JUST THE HISTORY OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IS TOTALLY CONTESTED. >> SURE. I THINK I REMEMBER READING THAT I THINK OUR LAST HANGING, WHICH IS A TOUGH SUBJECT, WAS I BELIEVE SOMEWHERE IN THE EARLY FORTIES, SOMEWHERE HERE. BUT ANYWAY, THERE WAS A LONG LIST. AM I TO ASSUME CORRECTLY THAT THESE THINGS WOULD USUALLY HAPPEN ON A PLAZA? OR IS THAT A LITTLE BIT HOLLYWOOD HERE? >> THE ONE INSTANCE WAS, THERE WAS A WINDMILL THAT WAS ERECTED IN THE LAS VEGAS PLAZA RIGHT AROUND THE TIME THE RAILROAD CAME IN IN 1846, AND WHEN YOU'RE BUILDING A RAILROAD, YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF OPPORTUNISTS FLOWING IN, AND WORKERS, AND

IT BECAME A REAL WILD WEST SCENE. AND VIGILANTES, BUT NOT THE COURTS, USED THAT WINDMILL TO HANG SOME OF THEIR VICTIMS. >> WELL, IT'S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE IN NEW MEXICO, IT DIDN'T JUST START DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY. WE'VE GOT ALL THESE THINGS THAT WE SEE AND FEEL AND TOUCH, DON'T WE, WHEN WE'RE ENGAGING AS A PUBLIC IN THESE PLAZAS. NOT TO GET TOO, WHOO, ABOUT IT, BUT WE'RE BEING INFORMED BY SOMETHING, AREN'T WE? THE SPACE AND OFTEN THE MONUMENTS AND THINGS THAT HAPPEN, AND EVEN MULTIPLE LAYERS OF MONUMENTS. IN WHAT IS PROBABLY THE EIGHTIES OR THE NINETIES, THEY SCRAPE OUT SAVAGES ALONG THE MONOLITH THAT'S IN THE SANTA FE PLAZA. YOU STILL GO TO THE LAS VEGAS PLAZA AND THERE'S THE STATEMENT THAT KEARNY MADE WHEN THE AMERICANS CAME OVER AND OCCUPIED NEW MEXICO. I THINK IT'S LIKE, NOT AN ONION, NOT A TOMATO WILL THEY TAKE, AND THEY WILL PAY FOR EVERYTHING. AND ALTHOUGH THEY ARE MOSTLY PROTESTANTS, THERE ARE SOME CATHOLICS IN THE ARMY, AND

THE CATHOLICS NEED NOT FEAR. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE STILL EMBEDDED ON MONUMENTS THAT INFORM US ABOUT THAT VERY COMPLEX HISTORY. AND THEN, ALSO, OF COURSE, THE COMMUNITY CELEBRATIONS. THE RE-ENACTMENT OF THE PEACEFUL CONQUEST OF SANTA FE, WHICH PROBABLY WASN'T AS PEACEFUL AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE. THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT LAS VEGAS CELEBRATING THEIR MAJOR FEAST DAY AS THE 4TH OF JULY IS PRIMARILY BECAUSE HISPANOS THERE WERE REALLY DEMANDING THE RIGHTS OF AMERICAN CITIZENS DURING THE TERRITORIAL TIME, AND THEY WERE BEING ACCUSED OF BEING TERRORISTS, OR UNAMERICAN. WELL, WHEN THE HISPANIC COMMUNITY IN LAS VEGAS IS CELEBRATING THE 4TH OF JULY, THAT BECOMES A LITTLE MORE PROBLEMATIC. THERE ARE PICTURES AND THINGS ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK, AND THE STORIES OF THAT COMPLEX HISTORY. >> LET ME STAY WITH YOU FOR A SECOND ON THIS, TOO. WE WERE TALKING EARLIER, AND

CHRIS MENTIONED ABOUT ARMIES AND MILITARY, AND I HAVE TO IMAGINE THERE'S A MILITARY HISTORY CONNECTED WITH SOME -- MOST EVERY PLAZA AROUND, AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, SOME OF THE FORTS THAT WE HAD BUILT HERE DURING THE TERRITORIAL PERIOD HAVE A PLAZA-ISH, OR LIKE SETUP, AS WELL. IT'S AN INTERESTING DYNAMIC WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE MILITARY AND PLAZAS. >> WELL, IN SANTA FE, IT WAS THE NORTHERNMOST PRESIDIO OF NUEVA ESPANA; NEW SPAIN. SO THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT. THEY WERE ALSO DESIGNED TO BE VERY DEFENSIBLE AS SPACES, OFTENTIMES. IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO GO TO THE PLAZA IN SAN JOSE ALONG THE RIO GRANDE VALLEY, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT AT ONE POINT IN TIME IT WAS REALLY -- THAT WAS ONE OF THE PLAZAS ON THE FRONTIERS BETWEEN THE PLAINS INDIANS AND THE PUEBLOS AND THE RIO GRANDE CORRIDOR. VERY DEFINED AS A DEFENSIBLE SPACE. SO, YEAH, MILITARY PRESENCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN IMPORTANT. AND LOOKING AT THESE COMMUNITIES IN THAT WAY, THE PLAZA WAS DESIGNED VERY MUCH AS A DEFENSIBLE POSITION.

>> ALSO FOR TRADE, CHRIS, AS WELL. IT'S THE CENTER OF COMMERCE, THE CENTER OF TRADE. I JUST CAN'T HELP USING MY MIND'S EYE TO IMAGINE ALL THE LIVESTOCK AND THINGS COMING OFF OF WAGONS. THE CACOPHONY OF JUST LIFE MUST HAVE BEEN BREATHTAKING, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. >> WELL, SURE. THE ANGLO COURTHOUSE SQUARES HAVE MUCH MORE OF A COMMERCIAL ASPECT. I MEAN, SANTA FE WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE, AND WE THINK OF IT AS THE END OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL. IN FACT, MORE THAN HALF OF WHAT WAS ON THOSE WAGONS CONTINUED ON THE CHIHUAHUA FRAIL INTO MEXICO. SO THE SANTA FE PLAZA IS ACTUALLY THE PLACE WHERE MEXICO AND THE UNITED STATES MEET, AND THOSE WAGONS COME ROLLING IN THERE. THE LAST MEXICAN GOVERNOR TRIED TO GET A PARK GOING, AND HE PLANTED SOME TREES, BUT THE WAGON TRAINS JUST RODE THOSE INTO OBLIVION. SO THAT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, JUST FILLED WITH TRADE AND COMMERCE.

THE ANGLO COURTHOUSE SQUARES REALLY ARE THE MARRIAGE OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT AND OF GOVERNMENT WITH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. SO YOU'VE GOT THE COURTHOUSE IN THE MIDDLE, BUT THEN YOU'VE GOT BUSINESS BLOCKS, AND SHOPS, AND LAWYERS, AND SURVEYORS REALLY FOCUSED IN THAT COMMUNITY SPACE. >> AT UNM IN THE SCHOOL OF ARCHITECTURE AND PLANNING, YOU GUYS DEAL WITH A LOT OF HOW YOU DESIGN A COMMUNITY, AND FACTORING IN AND LAYERING IN HOW PEOPLE LIVE AND WORK AND TRAVEL AND COMMUTE. AND THERE'S BEEN A BIT OF A RENAISSANCE ABOUT THE IDEA OF THE PLAZA AS A FOCAL POINT TO GET PEOPLE ENGAGED MORE. CIVIC ENGAGEMENT, BASICALLY. WHERE DO WE STAND ON THAT IDEA NOW? IS THAT GETTING SOME TRACTION? >> YEAH, I THINK IT CERTAINLY IS. I THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH THE CHALLENGE OF SUSTAINABILITY, WITH THE COST OF ENERGY, OF GLOBAL WARMING. YOU KNOW, WITH THE SENSE THAT WE MAY NEED TO BE MORE EFFICIENT, AND THAT MOST OF OUR ENERGY GOES INTO -- HALF OF IT GOES INTO THE CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION OF BUILDINGS, A QUARTER INTO TRANSPORTATION, AND A QUARTER INTO INDUSTRY.

SO IT'S BUILDING MORE EFFICIENT COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MAYBE A LITTLE BIT DENSER, THAT ARE MIXED USE, THAT ARE PEDESTRIAN ORIENTED, THAT ARE DEVELOPED AROUND NODES THAT CAN BE PART OF TRANSIT SYSTEMS. >> EXPLAIN THAT, THE NODES BIT. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT EFFICIENT TRANSIT SYSTEMS, WHETHER IT'S COMMUTER RAIL, STREET CAR, OR RAPID BUS, WHICH IS MORE LIKELY, YOU CAN'T HAVE TOO MANY STOPS, BECAUSE THEN THE WHOLE SYSTEM SLOWS DOWN. AND SO YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE DENSITIES AROUND STATIONS. TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT, IT'S SOMETIMES CALLED. PEDESTRIAN POCKETS. WHERE YOU'VE GOT JOBS, YOU'VE GOT SHOPPING, YOU'VE GOT MORE MULTI-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL, AND YOU'VE GOT COMMUNITY SPACE THAT IS A PLACE OF COMMUNITY IDENTITY AND CELEBRATION, BUT ALSO A PLACE OF EVERYDAY INTERACTION. IT'S DEVELOPING ATTRACTIVE ALTERNATIVES TO SUBURBIA. WE'RE NOT GOING TO TURN OUR BACK ON SUBURBIA, MANY OF US PREFER THAT AS A WAY OF LIFE, BUT MANY PEOPLE ARE

OPEN TO A LITTLE BIT MORE OF AN URBAN LIFESTYLE, AND I THINK HAVING HIGH QUALITY PUBLIC SPACES IS PART OF THE TRADE-OFF. YOU HAVE MAYBE LESS SPACE, LESS INDIVIDUAL PRIVACY, BUT YOU'VE GOT THE LIFE OF THE STREET, AND THE LIFE OF THE PUBLIC SPACE, THE PLAZA, THE SQUARE. >> SURE. MIGUEL, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT WE'RE PERHAPS IN OUR MODERN TIMES UNDERUTILIZING THE POWER OF THE PLAZA? YOU DON'T REALLY SEE A LOT OF SPEECHES. OR OFFICIAL TYPE THINGS. >> WELL, I THINK A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE DESIGN. I THINK OF ALBUQUERQUE AND CIVIC PLAZA. IT'S A PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE CONCERTS AND THINGS, BUT OTHERWISE, IT'S A VERY UNINHABITABLE SPACE. THERE'S A LOT OF CONCRETE AND THINGS. ONE OF THE CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK, ONE OF THE ESSAYS BY CHRIS CALLEN AND MEGAN BEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, LOOKS AT NEW PLAZAS. THERE'S A NEW PLAZA, FOR EXAMPLE, IN GALLUP THAT'S QUITE EXTRAORDINARY. THE FOCAL POINT IS A PATCH OF DIRT IN THE CENTER OF THE PLAZA. THERE'S WPA BUILDINGS, AND GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. AND WHAT IS THAT FOCUS FOR?

THAT'S VERY MUCH TAKEN FROM THE PUEBLO IDEA AND THE CENTER PLACE. IT'S A DANCE AREA. THERE'S A NEW PLAZA BEING BUILT IN SEVERAL PLACES IN AND AROUND SANTA FE, AND THEY'RE REALLY TRYING TO DEVELOP ON THE IDEA OF THE TRADITIONAL HISTORIC PLAZA, TO BECOME A NEW FOCAL POINT FOR DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COMMUNITY. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE EXCITING THINGS ABOUT THIS BOOK AND THE CONCEPT OF WHERE IT CAME FROM, THAT IT CAN BE USED TO LOOK AT THERE'S A LOT OF DRAWINGS, THERE'S A LOT OF LAYOUTS OF PLAZAS THAT BECOMES, IN A WAY, A MANUAL TO LOOK AT THE PAST TO PROJECT FORWARD TO THOSE SUSTAINABILITY ISSUES IN THE FUTURE THAT ARE SO NEEDED. WHEN THE SPANISH COLONIAL PEOPLE FIRST CAME HERE, THE FIRST THING THEY BUILT WAS AN ACEQUIA, AN IRRIGATION DITCH, AND THE SECOND THING WAS A PLAZA TO GIVE A FOCAL POINT TO YOUR COMMUNITY, AND I THINK THAT BECOMES REALLY EXCITING. >> NOT ALL THE NEW PLAZAS HAVE TO TAKE A HISTORICAL FORM, AND THE MESA DEL SOL PLAZA, WHICH MIGUEL IS ACTIVE IN, HAS THE NEW MOVIE

AND TV STUDIOS OUT THERE, AND UNM HAS A CENTER FOR FILM AND DIGITAL MEDIA OUT THERE, AND SO IT TAKES A DIFFERENT FORM. IT TAKES A MORE MODERN, CONTEMPORARY FORM. AND IT'S CREATING A NEW FORM OF ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL ORGANIZATION. >> INTERESTING. I HAVE TO THANK YOU GUYS BOTH FOR YOUR WORK ON THIS, AND THE OTHER TEAM MEMBERS, AS WELL. BUT THIS REALLY -- IF YOU JUST LOVE NEW MEXICO HISTORY, YOU CANNOT GO WRONG WITH THIS. I REALLY THANK YOU GUYS. IT'S REALLY A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL READ. AND THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE AND ADDING SOME INSIGHT >> IMMEDIATELY GOT RID OF THE ENTIRE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPROVEMENT BOARD AND IMMEDIATELY SAID NO MORE, THE RULE ON THE CARBON EMISSIONS IS OUT, GROUND- WATER PROTECTIONS FROM THE DAIRIES IS OUT. >> OUR NEXT TWO BIG STORIES

SHARE A DISTINCT CHARACTERISTIC: IT'S HARD TO POINT TO A HEADLINE OR AN EVENT THAT TYPIFIED THEIR IMPACT ON LIFE IN NEW MEXICO. FOR EXAMPLE: THE DROUGHT. IT'S BEEN A BONE-DRY YEAR, THE KIND THAT KILLS LAWNS, IF YOU STILL HAVE ONE, THE KIND THAT KILLS FISH WITH LOW WATER FLOW IN STREAMS, THAT'S NOT SO FUNNY, THE KIND THAT KILLS GROWTH AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. NOT FUNNY AT ALL. LAURA PASKUS, ALMOST AN APOCALYPTIC FEEL TO THIS AT TIMES, ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE IN THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OF THE STATE. IF YOU THINK OF ALL THOSE STRINGS OF HIGHER THAN A HUNDRED DEGREES, OR EVEN JUST UNDER A HUNDRED DEGREES, IT WAS HOT. THERE WAS A HUGE PROBLEM DOWN THERE WITH HAY FEED FOR ANIMALS, TRUCKING IN HAY AT EXORBITANT COSTS BECAUSE WE COULDN'T GROW ANYMORE. THE DROUGHT, WHERE DO WE HOW DO WE RESPOND? >> MY FIRST PLEA IS FOR VIEWERS TO REMEMBER THAT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLIMATE AND WEATHER. SO, WE'RE IN A DROUGHT. THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING. IF WE GET SOME BIG SNOW STORMS, DON'T SAY THE DROUGHT IS OVER. DON'T SAY THE CLIMATE CHANGE ISN'T HAPPENING. HERE IN THE SOUTHWEST, WE HAVE A HUGE, HUGE PLANNING THAT WE NEED TO BE

UNDERTAKING, ESPECIALLY IN TERMS OF WATER SUPPLIES, MAKING SURE THAT MUNICIPALITIES HAVE ENOUGH WATER, BUT THAT THERE AREN'T THESE BIG TRANSFERS OF WATER FROM AG, OR FROM RURAL AREAS TO CITIES, AND WE WATCH ALL THE RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE DIE. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WANTS TO SEE THAT, BUT I THINK IT'S A POSSIBILITY. >> WE'RE AT THAT POINT, AREN'T WE? THERE'S SOME VERY TENDER PLACES THAT COULD HAVE SOME REAL PROBLEMS IF THIS CONTINUES FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, SOPHIE. SO FROM WHAT LAURA IS SAYING, IT SEEMS TO ME THE ECONOMIC IMPACT IS THE STORY HERE. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DEPRESS THAT IMPACT SOMEHOW. >> THERE'S THE ECONOMIC THINK THERE'S A CULTURAL IMPACT THAT WAS TOUCHED ON, THE IDEA OF PEOPLE HAVING TO MOVE OUT OF MORE RURAL AREAS AND INTO MORE CONDENSED AREAS. LISTEN, LET'S REMEMBER THAT TEN YEARS AGO, THE CENSUS IN 2000 IDENTIFIED THE CORRIDOR BETWEEN ALBUQUERQUE AND DENVER AS ONE OF THE HIGHEST GROWTH CORRIDORS IN THE COUNTRY, AND WE HAVE SEEN A

BOOM, AT LEAST HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, BUT ALSO HEADING UP TOWARD DENVER AND COMING DOWN FROM DENVER. AND THESE ARE NOT AREAS, AT LEAST IN NEW MEXICO, THAT CAN SUSTAIN HUGE POPULATIONS. WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE WATER. SO I THINK THAT MANY OF US, BOTH INDIVIDUALS AND INDUSTRY, BUSINESSES, HAVE THOUGHT, WELL, I CAN JUST KEEP GOING WITH WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING. NOTHING MAKES ME MORE ANGRY, I'VE GOT TO SAY, THAN DRIVING PAST HOME DEPOT AND SEEING THEM WATER THEIR PARKING LOTS DURING THE SUMMER. IT JUST MAKES ME CRAZY. EVERYBODY SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT CHANGING THEIR BEHAVIOR BECAUSE CHANGE IS HAPPENING. >> DO YOU REMEMBER THE WATER POLICE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE? DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN WE FIRST STARTED THAT UNDER MARTIN CHAVEZ? THEY WOULD GO AROUND AND SEE IF YOU WERE WASTING WATER AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING. MAYBE WE NEED TO BRING THAT BACK. >> I DON'T LIVE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE. >> YOU'RE AN EL DORADO GUY, WHAT DO YOU CARE, EXACTLY RIGHT. >> AND I WILL SAY, THE AREA AROUND SANTA FE HAS LONG BEEN KNOWN AS AN AREA WHERE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO MAKE DO WITH A LOT LESS WATER, AND WE CAN AND SHOULD BE LOOKING TO THOSE AREAS AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, BROWN IS

KIND OF BEAUTIFUL. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A GREEN LAWN. >> BUT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN RINGING THE BELL ON THIS, ROB, FOR A LOT OF YEARS. LAURA HAS BEEN WRITING, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS. WHAT DOES IT TAKE FOR PEOPLE TO MOVE OFF THE DIME? IS IT SOMETHING PUNITIVE IF YOU USE TOO MUCH WATER? >> I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE BEING A CONSERVATIVE, I'M A LITTLE BIT RELUCTANT TO GO WITH THE BIG GOVERNMENT SOLUTION. BUT CLEARLY -- I MEAN, IF YOU JUST GO WITH THE MARKET, MAYBE THAT'S NOT THE SOLUTION, EITHER. BUT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS AND HEARD ABOUT THIS FOR YEARS, EVEN BEFORE THE DISCUSSION ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, ABOUT HOW THE SOUTHWEST WAS GOING TO BE AN AREA WHERE WATER WAS GOING TO BE THE ISSUE OF THE 21ST CENTURY. SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE ANSWER IS. >> THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT DROUGHT, THERE ARE RAMIFICATIONS POLITICALLY. IS THERE ANYTHING ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL CAN DO ABOUT DROUGHT? DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING HERE? IT'S A HARD ONE TO GET YOUR ARMS AROUND. I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION - SO WHERE DO WE GO WITH THAT? >> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY,

IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT THE SOLUTION INVOLVES BEHAVIORAL CHANGE. SO IT ISN'T LIKE WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME TECHNOLOGY TO FIX THE PROBLEM, OR PUT MORE MONEY INTO SOMETHING TO CHANGE SOME BIG STRUCTURE. WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR. I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT FOR NEW MEXICO IS THAT, YOU KNOW DROUGHT MEANS ENDANGERING THE RURAL WAY OF LIFE HERE IN NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE IT IMPACTS AGRICULTURE SO MUCH. IT IMPACTS RANCHING, FARMING. THESE ARE PARTS OF NEW MEXICO THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR CENTURIES, AND EVERY YEAR THAT WE CONTINUE TO HAVE THIS TYPE OF DROUGHT, AND WE'RE NOT WELL PREPARED FOR THE FUTURE, WE ENDANGER THAT WAY OF LIFE EVEN FURTHER. AND I THINK BEHAVIOR CHANGE IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE. WE ARE VERY SHORT-TERM IN OUR OUTLOOK. I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S A MAGIC PILL, OR A MAGIC INITIATIVE THAT A POLITICIAN -- CERTAINLY NOT A POLITICIAN WOULD BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH. BUT I THINK ALL OF US, COLLECTIVELY, NEED TO START TO ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER TO CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR. >> IT'S INTERESTING, WE HAVE SIGNS IN BATHROOMS, WE HAVE -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF BEHAVIOR ISSUES THAT WE HAVE REMINDERS ABOUT, LAURA PASKUS, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO STILL HAPPEN. MY OTHER QUESTION IS, THE

WATER COMPACTS. HOW IMPORTANT ARE THOSE NOW, AND WHERE DO WE STAND ON THE COMPACTS TO HELP WITH THE SITUATION? >> WELL, I THINK ON THE RIO GRANDE, IN PARTICULAR, THE WATER THAT WE OWE TO TEXAS IS A HUGE DEAL BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION IS A LOT LESS LIKELY TO USE THE WATER THAT'S ALREADY IN THE RIVER FOR ENDANGERED SPECIES, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A LIVING RIO GRANDE. THE COMPACTS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GO AWAY. WE NEED TO GIVE TEXAS WHAT WE OWE THEM. BUT IN THE TIME WHEN -- LIKE IN THE COLORADO RIVER, FOR INSTANCE, THERE'S MORE WATER PROMISED TO USERS THAN THERE ACTUALLY IS IN THE RIVER, AND THOSE SURFACE FLOWS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DECREASE OVER TIME. SO THE COMPACTS ARE GOING TO GET HARDER AND HARDER TO ENFORCE. >> I BET. NEXT SUBJECT, AND I'LL START WITH YOU, ROB, FOR OUR SECOND BIGGEST STORY OF THE YEAR. WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW WE BEGAN 2011, AND WHERE WE'RE FINISHING, A BAD ECONOMY SEEMS TO BE THE CONSTANT. DO LAWMAKERS AND

POLICYMAKERS GET IT HERE? AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS, HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT A JOBS PROGRAM FROM THE GOVERNOR, RESPECTIVE MAYORS, THAT TELLS YOU WE CAN EXPECT X IN 2012? >> WELL, NATURALLY GOVERNOR MARTINEZ HAS HER OWN JOBS PROGRAM. YOU KNOW, LIBERALS DON'T LIKE IT, BECAUSE A LOT OF THINGS SHE'S TRYING TO DO IS REDUCE REGULATION. AND WHENEVER I GET A NEWS RELEASE FROM DEMOCRATS, IT'S ALWAYS JOBS, JOBS, JOBS. BUT ONE THING THAT I'VE THROWN OUT THERE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT KIND OF STICKS IN MY CRAW, IS THAT NEW MEXICO -- WE'VE GOT A SCANDALOUSLY HIGH DROP-OUT RATE IN THE STATE. ABOUT 30%. SOMETHING LIKE 80% OF THE KIDS WHO DO GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL, WHO GO ON TO COLLEGE, NEED SOME SORT OF REMEDIAL EDUCATION. WHAT SEEMS TO ME A LOGICAL THING FOR MAYBE THE STATE TO DO -- REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, CONSERVATIVES,

LIBERALS -- I THINK MAYBE WE SHOULD TRY TO FUNNEL MORE OF THESE KIDS, WOULD-BE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES, INTO TRADE SCHOOLS, INTO TWO-YEAR DEGREES, BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS CUT OUT TO BE AN ENGLISH PROFESSOR OR A THORACIC SURGEON. BUT THERE ARE MANUFACTURING JOBS OUT THERE, THERE IS THE DEMAND FOR SKILLED LABOR. AND I KNOW THAT A LOT OF PLACES IN THE RUST BELT, THEY FEEL THAT THEY'VE BEEN HOSED BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE JOBS GET SHIPPED OUT TO INDIA, OR WHATEVER. WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT? WHEN MY FAUCET IS LEAKY, I DON'T CALL SOMEONE IN INDIA TO COME FIX IT. I NEED SOMEONE. I NEED SOMEONE WHO IS A TRAINED CRAFTSMAN TO COME IN TO DO A LOT OF THESE THINGS. FIX A CAR, ETC. AND IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S SORT OF A NO BRAINER. AND I'M A BIT FRUSTRATED COVERING THE LEGISLATURE THAT THERE ISN'T SOME SORT OF MOVEMENT THERE. EVERY JOB HAS ITS VALUE, AND JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE'S GOT A

FOUR-YEAR DEGREE DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN -- AND I'VE GOT TWO MASTER'S DEGREES. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING EDUCATED AND BEING INTELLIGENT. AND I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE A MORE INTELLIGENT WAY TO TRY TO GET SOME OF THESE KIDS WHO ARE MAYBE NOT CUT OUT, OR EVEN HAVE ANY DESIRE TO GO TO COLLEGE, TO GO TO TRADE SCHOOLS. >> IT'S WORKED IN GERMANY. IT'S WORKED FOR OTHER COUNTRIES. THEY'VE FOUND A WAY TO DO VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND MAKE IT PAY OFF. >> RIGHT. IMPORTANT. I THINK THAT IT STILL TAKES GOVERNMENT TO DO THAT, BECAUSE THOSE TWO-YEAR INSTITUTIONS ARE, YOU KNOW, CNM'S. THEY'RE TRADE SCHOOLS THAT ARE OFTEN, YOU KNOW, STATE FUNDED, OR FEDERALLY FUNDED. AND THE STUDENTS ATTENDING THEM ARE OFTEN ON FEDERAL GRANTS. I ATTENDED CNM'S GRADUATION LAST SATURDAY, AS A MATTER OF FACT, AND HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS WERE GETTING THEIR TRADE CERTIFICATES, THEIR ASSOCIATE'S DEGREES. AMAZING. WORKING HARD. HOW MANY OF THOSE STUDENTS ACTUALLY COME OUT AND HAVE A JOB WAITING FOR THEM? IT'S STILL A VERY DIFFICULT TRANSITION. I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT

NECESSARILY CREATES THE KIND OF JOBS THAT WE NEED NOW. AND JUST TO COUNTER ONE POINT ABOUT MARTINEZ, I'VE SEEN PLANS FOR BUSINESS BREAKS, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS, I'VE SEEN TAX BREAK PLANS, BUT NOT A JOBS PLAN. AND I STILL THINK THAT THAT CONNECTION BETWEEN GIVING SMALL BUSINESSES, WHO I THINK ARE IMPORTANT, GIVING THEM A LEG UP DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE INTO GIVING JOBS, EITHER. ALTHOUGH ALL OF THIS SEEMS TO INCLUDE A COMPONENT OF GOVERNMENT. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE STATE TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ITS PRIORITIES ARE. I THINK WE'RE SORT OF REACTING TO A LOT OF WHAT'S HAPPENED RECENTLY, REACTING TO THE RECESSION, THE. ECONOMY, AND THERE ISN'T VERY MUCH PROACTIVE PLANNING GOING ON AND ADDRESSING WHERE THE GAPS IN STATE GOVERNMENT ARE. I THINK ABSOLUTELY A JOBS PLAN IS IMPORTANT. WE DON'T EMPHASIZE ENOUGH TRANSITIONING INTO THE ACTUAL JOB MARKET, THOUGH, EVEN AFTER YOU GET THAT CERTIFICATE. >> GREEN JOBS. ARE WE DEAD-IN-THE-WATER ON THIS IN NEW MEXICO? WAS THAT A RICHARDSON THING THAT'S ALL JUST COMPLETELY DONE AWAY? THING THAT'S KIND OF GONE AWAY, AND IT'S KIND OF

DISAPPOINTING TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH ALBUQUERQUE AND THIS PUSH AGAINST THE ENERGY CODES. BUT FOR ME, NOT AS A CONSERVATIVE, TO SEE IF THERE WERE GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS THAT ENCOURAGED EFFICIENCY, THAT ENCOURAGED ENVIRONMENTAL RESTORATION AND REMEDIATION, THOSE WOULD BE GREAT JOBS. AND THEY WOULD BE GREAT JOBS THAT COULD BE SUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG-TERM, AND WOULD HAVE REAL POSITIVE IMPACTS ON THE STATE. >> INTERESTING. GREEN JOBS, I'LL ASK YOU AGAIN ABOUT GREEN JOBS, AND IF THAT IS OUR FUTURE. >> CERTAINLY TO LAURA'S TRADE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE HARDEST HIT, AND IT'S NOT SURPRISING WHEN WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH HOMEOWNERSHIP, WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH FORECLOSURES, AND THAT'S ON THE RISE IN NEW MEXICO. THE GREEN JOBS FOCUSED ON RETROFITTING HOMES IS A PLACE WHERE WE CAN TAKE WORKERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF WORK RIGHT NOW, AND PUT THEM TO WORK IN A FIELD THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH THEIR EXISTING TRAINING. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO NOTE ABOUT THIS PAST YEAR IN NEW MEXICO, BUT ALSO ACROSS THE COUNTRY -- REMEMBER, NEW

MEXICO IS REALLY DEPENDENT ON FEDERAL JOBS -- IS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THIS RECESSION A SHRINKING OF THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE, A DELIBERATE SHRINKING OF BOTH THE FEDERAL AND STATE WORKFORCES, AND THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED TO US AS RESPONSIBLE. AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A SENSE LIKE, YES, YOU DON'T HAVE AS MUCH MONEY, YOU SHOULD SHRINK YOUR BUDGETS. AND AT THE SAME TIME, IN A STATE LIKE NEW MEXICO, NOT FILLING JOBS WHEN THEY COME EMPTY, CUTTING PEOPLE OFF OF THE PAYROLL FROM GOVERNMENT JOBS, MEANS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS ACTUALLY ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN INCREASING UNEMPLOYMENT IN THIS STATE. AND I THINK ANOTHER THING WE REALLY WANT TO FOCUS ON IS AS PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE IDEA OF RAISING THE RETIREMENT AGE HERE, AND NATIONALLY, IS THAT IF PEOPLE STAY WORKING LODGER BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO RETIRE, THAT'S FEWER JOBS OPENING UP, FEWER OPPORTUNITIES FOR MOBILITY FOR PEOPLE TO MOVE UP IN JOBS, AND NEW PEOPLE TO COME IN. SO WE REALLY HAVE TO TAKE A MUCH MORE STRATEGIC LOOK AT HOW GOVERNMENT HANDLES JOBS.

>> IN A MOMENT, AMERICAN GRADUATE RETURNS WITH A LOOK AT ENGAGING KIDS THROUGH REAL-WORLD PROJECTS. BRING UP RESCINDING THE DRIVER'S LICENSES FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I MEAN THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT SHE HARPS ON A LOT AND I THINK THAT SHE LOOKS AT THEM NOT JUST AS POLITICAL WINNERS, BUT SHE SINCERELY BELIEVES IN THEM. I KNOW THAT IT DIVIDES PEOPLE BUT THAT'S WHAT PART OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS IS. >> OUR AMERICAN GRADUATE SERIES RETURNS THIS WEEK AS WE CONTINUE OUR EXAMINATION OF WHO AND WHAT IS WORKING TO SOLVE THE DROPOUT CRISIS. THE DEPTH OF THE CRISIS IS WELL-DOCUMENTED. BUT WE'RE FOCUSING ON SOLUTIONS HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE. THIS WEEK, NMIF PRODUCER MATT GRUBS IS AT THE NEX-GEN HIGH SCHOOL IN ALBUQUERQUE. >> I ALMOST DROPPED OUT AND THIS SEMESTER I CAME BACK. I'D GIVE IT A SHOT. IT

TURNED OUT GREAT. >>PROJECT BASED LEARNING - THAT'S A LOT EASIER, TOO. LIKE YOU ACTUALLY GET THE HANDS-ON AND EVERYTHING. LIKE THE FOUNDATIONS OF ENGINEERING CLASS, WE ACTUALLY DO LITTLE STUDIES AND LITTLE LABS, YOU KNOW, JUST TO LEARN, AND IT HELPS YOU LEARN A LOT EASIER THAN JUST LOOKING IN A BOOK. >> TRYING TO FIND A MEANINGFUL CONTEXT FOR A TEENAGER IS CERTAINLY A CHALLENGING ENDEAVOR. BUT I THINK A LOT OF THE TIME WE DO. >> WHEN WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT NEXGEN, YOU SAID YOUR FOCUS ISN'T SPECIFICALLY DROPOUT PREVENTION IN THAT YOU'RE NOT AFTER NECESSARILY AT-RISK KIDS HERE. WHO ARE >> OUR PROGRAM, OUR SCHOOL, REALLY IS GEARED TO REALLY HELP THOSE MID-RANGE STUDENTS, THE STUDENTS THAT MAY NOT BE AS INTERESTED AT SCHOOL, MAY NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT TO DO, BUT REALLY CAN GET EXCITED ABOUT THE KIND OF PROJECT AND PROBLEM BASED LEARNING, RATHER THAN THE TRADITIONAL

SITTING IN THE CLASSROOM, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LEARN THIS FOR. >> SO HOW DO YOU ENSURE THAT YOU'RE TEACHING TO THE SPECIFICATIONS OF THE STATE, YET COMING UP WITH SOME SORT OF APPROPRIATE PROJECT. >> WELL, FIRST OF ALL IT STARTS WITH WONDERFUL TEACHERS WHO REALLY WORK HARD AND TAKE THE RISK AND REALLY WORK HARD TO LEARN A WHOLE NEW WAY OF TEACHING AND LEARNING. >> (CLASSROOM NOISE) >> WE START WITH THE STANDARDS THAT THE STATE WANTS THE STUDENTS TO LEARN AS THEY GO THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL, BUT WE DO IT AS A STARTING POINT FOR REAL WORLD PROJECTS AND PROPLEMS. >> RIGHT NOW WE'RE LEARNING BALLOONS AND STUFF, WHAT MAKES A HOT AIR BALLOON FLOAT. >> WE'RE SEEING SOME WONDERFUL PROJECTS AND SOME GREAT SUCCESS WITH STUDENTS THAT NORMALLY WOULD KIND OF SIT IN THE BACK OF THE CLASS AND JUST KIND OF GET BY WITH C'S OR MAYBE WORSE. GOOD AT MATH, BUT I'M

ACTUALLY DOING BETTER THAN I EXPECTED. AND THEN MY OTHER CLASSES, MY AMERICAN STUDIES AND MY ACE CLASS, I'M DOING GOOD IN THERE, TOO. SO... >>BETTER THAN BEFORE? >> BETTER THAN WHAT I USED TO GET OVER HERE AT DEL NORTE. A LOT BETTER. >>HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR YOU TO SORT OF GET TO THE POINT HERE WHERE I'M GOING TO SEE THIS THROUGH. I'M GOING TO AT LEAST GRADUATE. >> IT WAS WHEN I GOT HERE THIS YEAR. I STARTED OUT GOOD. I DECIDED, WELL, MAYBE IF I JUST KEEP THIS UP IT WON'T BE TOO BAD, IT WON'T BE TOO HARD TO CONTINUE AND GRADUATE. >> YOU TALKED TO US ABOUT A STUDENT, SEAN, WHO HAD JUST KIND OF BEEN FLOUNDERING IN A REGULAR HIGH SCHOOL SETTING. WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS THAT MAKES IT WORK FOR HIM? >> WELL, HE WAS JOKING THE OTHER DAY TO ONE OF HIS TEACHERS THAT IT ALMOST FEELS LIKE HE'S BEEN IN HIGH SCHOOL FOR SIX YEARS- IT HASN'T BEEN THAT LONG - BUT THE EXCITING THING TO HEAR FROM HIM IS THAT HE WENT TO TWO OR THREE TRADITIONAL HIGH SCHOOLS. AND HE'S AN INTELLIGENT YOUNG MAN, JUST WASN'T EVER INTERESTED. AND COMING HERE HE SAYS HE FEELS LIKE

HE'S PART OF A COMMUNITY, HE'S RESPECTED. >> IT'S REALLY A LOT BETTER HERE. THE ENVIRONMENT, IT'S A LOT MORE CALMER AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO TRY TO WATCH MY BACK AND EVERYTHING. >>HE'S ALLOWED TO BE HIMSELF, AND WE'RE ABLE TO GIVE HIM THE INDIVIDUAL, AND KIND OF THAT DIFFERENTIATION, AND KIND OF MORE ATTENTION IN RELATIONSHIP WITH AN ADULT HERE, THAT IS SOMETHING HE NEEDED, AND SOMETHING THAT MANY, MANY STUDENTS NEED. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, PART OF OUR SCHOOL COMMUNITY, AND PROBLEM BASED LEARNING, IS A CULTURE THAT'S BUILT AROUND TRUST AND RESPECT AND RESPONSIBILITY. AND HE SAID TO ME, THIS IS REALLY THE FIRST SCHOOL WHERE HE THAT HE WAS TRUSTED, AND REALLY GIVEN THE RESPECT THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO HIM. AND HE'S HELD UP HIS END OF THE BARGAIN BY OWNING UP TO THAT TRUST AND RESPECT AND RESPONSIBILITY. >> I WAS CLOSE TO JUST GETTING MY GED. I WAS JUST GOING TO DROP OUT, BUT MY MOM ALWAYS TOLD ME, SHE'S LIKE, NO, DON'T GET THAT. AND THEN I FOUND OUT THAT

YOU CAN'T GO AND BE MILITARY WITHOUT A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA. SO WHILE I HAVE TIME I GUESS I WAS JUST ABLE TO FIX EVERYTHING. I CAME HERE, AND THANKFULLY IT ACCEPTED ME, SO, YOU KNOW, I'M DOING GOOD NOW. >> WE ALL KNOW THE STUDENTS, AND WE HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE STUDENTS, SO I THINK THAT'S THE PRIMARY KIDS FURTHER, IT LETS US BUILD MORE THAN JUST THEIR ACADEMIC CONTENT. AND FOR THOSE STUDENTS THAT ARE HAVING ISSUES, I THINK HAVING A SMALL GROUP OF ADULTS WHO CAN COME TOGETHER AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING ON IN THIS CHILD'S LIFE - I'M HOPING THAT WE'RE KEEPING SOMEBODY WHO WOULD OTHERWISE BE LOST, WE'RE FINDING OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AND HELPING THEM MOVE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. >> HAVE YOU HAD ANY WASH-OUTS? PEOPLE WHO SAID I CAN'T DO THIS? >>I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT WE HAVE. YOU KNOW, BEING NEW AND BEING THE FIRST OF ITS KIND. NOT HAVING STUDENTS THAT THEY COULD ASK ABOUT WHAT'S THE SCHOOL LIKE, OR EVEN PARENTS. SO TRYING TO GET A SENSE OF WHAT OUR NICHE IS AND WHAT THE BENEFITS OF OUR SCHOOL

ARE AND WHAT KIND OF STUDENTS COULD REALLY BE SUCCESSFUL - WE HAD A FEW SORTING OUT. BUT THE NEAT THING IS, IS THAT WE HAD A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF THE STUDENTS COME BACK. >> I WAS NOT EXPECTING WHAT I CAME, AND WHAT IT'S LIKE. IT'S A LOT BETTER. >> IF YOUR MAIN CONCERN IS JUST TRYING TO SAVE THOSE THAT ARE GOING TO DROP OUT - I USE THE ANALOGY THAT YOU'RE PLAYING TO NOT LOSE THE GAME. SO, THAT MEANS THAT AS OPPOSED TO TRYING TO MAKE THE SCHOOL EXPERIENCE MEANINGFUL, RELEVANT, TRYING TO INSERT RIGOR, CHALLENGE INTO INSTRUCTION, YOU'RE JUST SPENDING ALL YOUR TIME TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO KEEP THOSE PEOPLE FROM LEAVING YOU. SO, IN THAT PROCESS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THAT HUGE CHUNK OF KIDS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO, AS A RESULT, JUST ALIENATE. BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT REALLY PLAYING TO THEM. >> THE SMALL SIZE. WITH FOR ME TO BE AROUND LOTS OF PEOPLE. I'VE ALWAYS HAD THAT PROBLEM, SO WHEN I CAME HERE,

WHEN I SAW 150 STUDENTS, WELL, THAT WAS HOW IT WAS WHEN I WAS FIRST HERE, IT WAS A LOT BETTER, IT MADE IT A LOT EASIER. AND LIKE SEAN SAID, IT'S MORE RELAXED, YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TO WATCH YOUR BACK FOR SOMEBODY. >> WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU'RE NOT ENGAGING THOSE STUDENTS WHO RESPOND TO THIS SYSTEM, WHERE DO THEY GO? >> IF THEY WEREN'T HERE, THEY MIGHT BE EITHER ON THE STREETS, TAKING A GED, THOSE MID-RANGE SMART STUDENTS, AND NOT REALLY BEING ALL THAT THEY COULD BE, TAKING THE EASIER WAY OUT, AND NOT GRADUATING, IN THE TENTH OR ELEVENTH GRADE, AND NOT GOING ON TO COLLEGE. >> DOES IT SEEM WITHIN REACH? >> DEFINITELY. NOW, NOW - LAST YEAR I DIDN'T THINK SO, BUT THIS YEAR, DEFINITELY THINK SO. >> AND HERE WE ARE AT THE YEAR'S BIGGEST STORY. AFTER EIGHT YEARS OF COMPLETE DEMOCRATIC DOMINANCE IN THE ROUNDHOUSE, REPUBLICAN SUSANA MARTINEZ SEIZED UPON A CONSERVATIVE WAVE AND ADEPTLY RODE THAT WAVE INTO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE. THE NATION'S FIRST LATINA GOVERNOR, MARTINEZ INSTANTLY ATTRACTED ATTENTION AS IMMIGRATION ISSUES BECAME A FLASHPOINT IN 2011. NOW, WHETHER TAKING ON

FOREIGN NATIONALS WITH NEW MEXICO DRIVER'S LICENSES, OR TAKING ON BILL RICHARDON'S SIGNATURE PROJECTS, SUSANA MARTINEZ GOT BUSY TRYING TO STAKE HER CLAIM IN NEW MEXICO POLITICS, ROB. AND WE REALLY HAD A PRETTY VIGOROUS DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS ONE, WHETHER THIS WAS OUR TOP STORY OF THE YEAR. BUT THERE'S SO MUCH ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS DOING, PLANNING, JUST WHO SHE IS AS A PERSON. >> RIGHT. BEING THE FIRST LATINA GOVERNOR -- >> ABSOLUTELY. >> -- ELECTED IN THE UNITED AND I THINK THAT, ALSO, FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE -- I MOVED HERE. I'VE LIVED IN THE SOUTHWEST BEFORE, BUT I MOVED HERE FROM THE EAST COAST. AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE SOUTHWEST, AND OUTSIDE OF AREAS WITH HIGH HISPANIC POPULATIONS, KIND OF AUTOMATICALLY THINK, HISPANICS ARE GOING TO VOTE DEMOCRAT. AND ALTHOUGH THEY DO VOTE DEMOCRAT MORE OFTEN THAN REPUBLICAN, THEY'RE NOT MONOLITHIC. YOU'VE GOT BRIAN SANDOVAL, THE GOVERNOR IN NEVADA. SUSANA MARTINEZ HERE IN NEW MEXICO. MARCO RUBIO DOWN IN FLORIDA. IT'S NOT THE SAME.

IT'S NOT AN AUTOMATIC "D" FOR SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO VOTE WHO IS OF THE HISPANIC PERSUASION. AND I THINK THAT IN MANY WAYS, HOW GOVERNOR SANDOVAL DOES IN NEVADA, HOW GOVERNOR MARTINEZ DOES IN NEW MEXICO, MIGHT BE A BELLWETHER FOR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN NATIONWIDE. >> SHE'S IN A STEEP LEARNING CURVE, SOPHIE, JUST LIKE EVERY NEW -- >> THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, AND I'M GLAD YOU I THINK THAT WE HAVE BECOME PERHAPS ACCUSTOMED TO HAVING A GOVERNOR THAT HAS A GREAT DEAL OF EXPERIENCE IN THAT TYPE OF ROLE, OR IN THAT PARTICULAR ROLE. >> OR EVEN BEING A PUBLIC FIGURE. >> WHO HAS A STRONG CONNECTION TO D.C., ETC. AND THE ELECTORATE CHOSE SOMEONE WHO COULD SAY, YOU KNOW, YES, I'VE BEEN A D.A., BUT I AM MORE OR LESS AN OUTSIDER. AND I THINK THAT WAS, IN MANY WAYS, THE BIG ELECTORIAL STORY IN 2008. AND THEN WE SEE THE LEARNING CURVE. CERTAINLY THAT FIRST LEGISLATIVE SESSION WHEN GOVERNOR MARTINEZ WAS, I

GATHER, FAIRLY HANDS OFF WITH THE LEGISLATURE -- THEY MIGHT HAVE CHARACTERIZED IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY -- WE SAW A DIFFERENCE IN STYLE THAT I THINK, IN SOME WAYS, MIGHT HAVE BEEN KIND OF SURPRISING FOR PEOPLE. A LESS ACTIVE GOVERNORSHIP IN SOME WAYS, MORE ACTIVE OBVIOUSLY IN OTHERS, IN KEY ISSUES THAT WERE IMPORTANT TO GOVERNOR MARTINEZ THIS YEAR. >> LAURA PASKUS, WHERE IS SHE ON THAT LEARNING CURVE? WE'VE HAD A REGULAR SESSION, A SPECIAL, AND WE HAVE ANOTHER REGULAR COMING UP HERE IN JUST SEEMINGLY DAYS, IT SEEMS LIKE. DID YOU NOTICE ANY KIND OF ARC FROM HER BEGINNING TIME TO WHERE SHE HAS PUBLICLY -- HER STATEMENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT? HAVE YOU SENSED A CHANGE? I FEEL LIKE I'M STILL SORT OF BAFFLED FROM THE FIRST FEW WEEKS WHEN SHE CAME IN, AND IMMEDIATELY GOT RID OF THE ENTIRE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPROVEMENT BOARD, AND IMMEDIATELY SAID NO MORE -- THE RULE ON THE CARBON EMISSIONS IS OUT, THE GROUND WATER PROTECTIONS FROM DAIRIES IS OUT, WHICH WAS A VIOLATION OF THE NEW MEXICO STATE CONSTITUTION.

AND I HAD TO LOOK AT THAT AND BE LIKE, THIS IS A WOMAN WITH A BACKGROUND IN LAW. IS THIS IGNORANCE, OR IS IT ARROGANCE? AND IT WAS VERY SHOCKING. >> INTERESTING. SAME QUESTION: ARC. EVERYBODY GROWS WHEN THEY HAVE TOUGH THINGS TO DEAL WITH. IT EITHER MAKES YOU STRONGER, OR IT DESTROYS YOU. IS SHE GETTING STRONGER? IS SHE GETTING FASTER? BETTER? SMARTER? WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF WHERE >> I THINK ONE OF THE TURNING POINTS IN TERMS OF THAT KNOWLEDGE CERTAINLY HAS BEEN ON THE FILM INCENTIVES AND THE FILM INDUSTRY. WE JUST SAW A FEW WEEKS AGO HER CHIEF OF STAFF, AND DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF ADDRESSING AN INDUSTRY GROUP THAT CLEARLY -- ON FILM INCENTIVES, AND TALKING ABOUT HOW IT WAS GOING TO BE A PARTNERSHIP. SO I THINK THAT WAS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT MY COLLEAGUE DAN SAID, I THINK IT WAS A COMPLETE 180 FROM WHERE THEY HAD BEEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR IN HER INAUGURAL SPEECH. BUT I STILL THINK THAT THERE IS A STEEP LEARNING CURVE. I THINK SHE'S STILL LEARNING. I THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE FOR ANYBODY WHO IS AN OUTSIDER OF SANTA FE. IT TAKES YEARS TO UNDERSTAND

HOW DEALS ARE PUT TOGETHER. BUT I THINK THAT'S THE KEY. YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK, FOR ANY GOVERNOR, HOW TO WORK WITH THE LEGISLATURE. IT CAN'T ALWAYS BE MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THEY HOLD THE PURSE STRINGS. SO YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THAT COMPROMISE IS. AND I THINK IN THE LAST SESSION, I DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF COMPROMISE. THERE WAS A LOT OF CONFUSION, A LOT OF, OKAY, WHO'S STEERING THIS BUS. AND ULTIMATELY, NOTHING HAPPENED. HOPEFULLY, IN THE INTERIM, THERE'S BEEN MORE EFFORT FROM THE STAFF AND THE GOVERNOR HERSELF IN TRYING TO WORK WITH LEGISLATORS AND FIND THAT COMMON GROUND, AND REALLY RECOGNIZING THAT THOSE COMMITTEE CHAIRMEN AND MAJORITY LEADERS, THEY HAVE TREMENDOUS POWER. THEY SCHEDULE THE BILLS. THEY SCHEDULE THE MEETINGS. THEY HEAR YOUR ISSUES. YOU CAN'T EXPECT THAT IT WILL JUST HAPPEN ON ITS OWN, BECAUSE IT NEVER HAS. THERE'S A LOT OF FINESSING THAT HAS TO GO IN THERE. SO I THINK WE'LL SEE AFTER THE NEXT SESSION, OR IN THE COURSE OF THE NEXT SESSION, HOW MUCH HAS BEEN LEARNED UP TO NOW. >> ANY CLUES AS TO THE NEXT SESSION FROM THE PREVIOUS TWO THAT YOU CAN POINT TO, THAT YOU THINK, OKAY, MAYBE

SHE'S GOING TO TACK THIS WAY? >> NO, I DON'T THINK SO. SHE HAS THREE OR FOUR MAIN PRIORITIES. THE EDUCATION REFORM. SHE WAS ABLE TO PASS THE A THROUGH F THING. SHE DEFINITELY WANTS THE SOCIAL PROMOTION BILL, OR THE BILL TO END SOCIAL PROMOTION AFTER THE 3RD GRADE. SHE'S BIG ON THAT. SHE DEFINITELY WANTS TO BRING UP THE RESCINDING OF THE DRIVER'S LICENSES FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT SHE HARPS ON A LOT, AND I THINK THAT SHE LOOKS AT THEM NOT JUST AS POLITICAL WINNERS, BUT SHE SINCERELY BELIEVES IN THEM. I KNOW IT DIVIDES PEOPLE, BUT THAT'S WHAT PART OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS IS. >> WHERE DO YOU THINK SHE IS WITH HER NATURAL CONSTITUENCY, HER SUPPORTERS? SHE CAME IN WITH A VERY STRONG WAVE, AS SOPHIE POINTED OUT. SHE USED POLLING QUITE OFTEN TO TALK ABOUT -- YOU MENTIONED DRIVER'S LICENSES. 70% OF NEW MEXICANS DON'T WANT THIS, OR DO WANT THAT. >> I THINK IT'S INTERESTING ON THAT BECAUSE I THINK A BIG REASON WHY SHE GOT ELECTED WAS BECAUSE PEOPLE

WERE TIRED AND DIDN'T LIKE BILL RICHARDSON ANYMORE. HOWEVER, PPP POLLING OUT OF NORTH CAROLINA, WHICH IS A DEMOCRATIC GROUP, ABOUT SIX MONTHS AGO DID SOME POLLING TO SEE WHERE HER NUMBERS WERE, AND HER NUMBERS WERE PRETTY HIGH. IN FACT, I BELIEVE THE ANALYST SAID, THESE ARE TERRIFIC NUMBERS FOR A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN. SO THAT INDICATED TO ME THAT THE LIKABILITY IS DEEPER THAN JUST AN ANTI-RICHARDSON VOTE. SO I THINK THAT -- WHAT'S THAT PHRASE? YOU KNOW, THE HEDGEHOG KNOWS ONE OR TWO THINGS, TWO OR THREE THINGS -- IT'S AN ENGLISH EXPRESSION. WHERE THE FOX KNOWS MANY THINGS, THE HEDGEHOG KNOWS ONE OR TWO. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> I THINK SHE FEELS, POLITICALLY, AND ALSO MAYBE JUST THE WAY SHE THINKS, THAT THESE ARE THE THREE OR FOUR ISSUES THAT I THINK ARE IMPORTANT, AND I THINK THAT MIGHT BE A POLITICAL WINNER. >> BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, HERE IS WHERE WE SEE THE DIFFERENCES, I THINK, BETWEEN BILL RICHARDSON AND SUSANA MARTINEZ.

AND I DON'T JUST MEAN THE OBVIOUS POLITICAL ONES, OR GENDER ONES, FOR THAT MATTER. HE WAS A SEASONED POLITICIAN. HE KNEW HOW WASHINGTON WORKED. HE UNDERSTOOD WHAT IT MEANT TO BE A MEMBER OF A BIGGER BODY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. HE WAS GOVERNOR. HE UNDERSTOOD THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS. AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, WITH THE POLLING THAT'S COME OUT, THAT'S AMONG THE ELECTORATE, WHO IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN THERE'S AN ELECTION. BUT WHEN THERE'S A LEGISLATIVE SESSION, YOUR AUDIENCE NEEDS TO BE THE LEGISLATORS, THEMSELVES. AND IF YOU'RE JUST SAYING THAT THESE ARE MY PRIORITIES, THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S GOING TO GET PASSED IF YOU DON'T CONTROL BOTH HOUSES. AND SHE DOESN'T CONTROL BOTH HOUSES RIGHT NOW. THEY HAVE A SLIM MAJORITY, THE DEMOCRATS DO, IN THE HOUSE, BUT ULTIMATELY THE SENATE WILL BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO GET ANYTHING THROUGH WITHOUT A LITTLE MORE COMPROMISE AND WORKING WITH THOSE FOLKS. SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO FOCUS LESS ON THE POLLING, LESS ON THE PUBLIC SPEAKING AND ALL OF THAT, BUT MORE ON THE STRATEGY INSIDE THE ROUNDHOUSE. >> INTERESTING. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR THOUGHTS LAST WEEK AND THIS

WEEK ON OUR TOP STORIES OF THE YEAR. THERE WAS ONLY LIKE 70 TO PICK FROM. >> WE'RE THANKFUL, AS ALWAYS, FOR YOU, THE VIEWERS, WHO CONTINUE TO BE ENGAGED IN THE DIALOGUE ABOUT OUR STATE. OUR GREAT HOPE IS, OF COURSE, THAT YOU'LL KEEP WATCHING, BUT ALSO THAT WE'LL ENCOURAGE YOU TO SOMEHOW GET INVOLVED, OR STAY INVOLVED. WE'RE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH AN INFOCUS SPECIAL ON HUNGER. I'M GENE GRANT.