New Mexico in Focus; 602; Jonah Goldberg and SF Intl. Folk Art Market

>> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS ... DISMAL JOBS NEWS FOR NEW MEXICO CONTINUES TO PILE UP. WILL THE LINE PILE ON, OR SEE A WAY BACK FOR THE STATE'S ECONOMY? AND WE TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT HOW SANTA FE'S FOLK ART MARKET IS NURTURING THE GLOBAL ECONOMY. >> IN ONE WORD: JOY. JOY BECAUSE IT MEANS MORE WORK. NEW MEXICO INFOCUS STARTS NOW! >> MANY NEW MEXICANS WILL SPEND A SUMMER WEEKEND ENJOYING A FESTIVAL OR A FARMERS MARKET - IT'S PART OF SUMMER HERE, FOR SURE. AND THIS WEEK, WE EXAMINE THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF "MARKET SEASON" WITH A TRIP TO SANTA FE. WE ALSO SIT DOWN WITH CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST AND AUTHOR JONAH GOLDBERG. THE LINE RETURNS AFTER A 4TH OF JULY BREAK AS THE GROUP EXAMINES THE FINGER-POINTING THAT'S POPPED UP IN THE MIDST OF AN OPEN GOVERNMENT SCANDAL. BUT WE BEGIN WITH THE STATE'S ECONOMY. SCHOTT SOLAR ANNOUNCED IT'S

GETTING OUT OF THE SOLAR PANEL BUSINESS AND SHUTTING DOWN ITS MESA DEL SOL PLANT THIS SUMMER. LAYOFFS SCHEDULED BY COMPUTER GIANT HP HAVE HIT NEW MEXICO, TOO. SO, IS THE STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE DIMMING? HERE'S THE LINE. >> JOINING US THIS WEEK - IT'S BEEN FAR TOO LONG - FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE AND SENATE PRESIDENT PRO TEM RICHARD ROMERO. GOOD TO SEE YOU BACK HERE. YOU NEED TO BE BACK HERE MORE OFTEN. EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE NEW MEXICO LAW REVIEW, SOPHIE MARTIN RETURNS. FORMER NEW MEXICO HOUSE REPUBLICAN WHIP - AND FORMER THORN IN RICHARD'S SIDE - DAN FOLEY. COULD BE CURRENT THORN, YOU NEVER KNOW. AND U.S. COMMERCE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH, JAMIE ESTRADA. HE'S BACK, TOO. WITH YOU. ARE WE LOOKING IN THE RIGHT PLACES AND AT THE RIGHT CASE STUDIES TO GAUGE JOB CREATION IN NEW MEXICO? BECAUSE THINGS SEEM TO HAVE COME TO A BIT OF A STANDSTILL. I WANT TO ASK YOU STRAIGHT UP: ARE YOU SEEING ANYTHING OUT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE THAT THERE'S A PLAN, AT THE VERY LEAST, FOR JOBS AND FOR GROWTH HERE IN NEW MEXICO? THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING WITH REGARD TO TAX REFORM.

I SAW THAT SECRETARY CLIFFORD CAME OUT WITH ANOTHER ITERATION OF HIS PROPOSAL THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE TO THE LEGISLATURE THIS COMING JANUARY THAT SAYS, HEY, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE GROSS RECEIPTS TAX, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING FOR PARTICULARLY SMALL BUSINESSES. WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT PYRAMIDING. WE'RE GOING TO DO A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT I THINK WOULD MAKE US MORE COMPETITIVE. BUT THAT'S ONE SIDE OF IT. THAT'S CREATING THE ENVIRONMENT FOR JOB CREATION IN NEW MEXICO, AND THAT'S GOT TO BE DONE. BUT I THINK WE'RE STILL CAUGHT UP IN THE OLD, YOU KNOW, IDEAS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. A LOT OF STATES ARE DOING SOME PRETTY INNOVATIVE THINGS. I'M NOT SURE THAT NEW MEXICO HAS CAUGHT THE TREND. >> I WANT TO ASK EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE TO CONSIDER WHAT MY MAN JAMIE JUST SAID RIGHT THERE, BECAUSE I'M HEARING THE SAME THING, DAN. THINGS DON'T SOUND CREATIVE. THERE'S NO CREATIVE PROBLEM-SOLVING, NO CREATIVE IDEAS, NO CREATIVE IDENTIFICATION OF WHERE OUR STRENGTHS ARE, WHERE WE NEED TO DO WORK, BESIDES UPPER EDUCATION AND SUCH. SO, SAME QUESTION: ARE WE WHAT'S GOING ON?

BECAUSE WE'VE GOT SOME DOWNTURNS HERE. >> THERE'S NO TRACK TO BE ON. THAT'S THE PROBLEM, GENE. YOU LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE IN THIS STATE THAT WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT, HOW DO WE HAVE INNOVATION? HOW ARE YOU ATTRACTING FOLKS? WE ARE SO HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON THE LABS, THE MILITARY BASES, STATE GOVERNMENT, COUNTY GOVERNMENT, CITY GOVERNMENT. IN MY OPINION, WHEN YOU HAVE THAT HUGE DEPENDENCY ON GOVERNMENT, IT STIFLES CREATIVITY. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO STUFF. WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? YOU'RE WAITING TO ELECT THE NEXT PERSON TO GO TO WASHINGTON AND BRING BACK MORE MONEY. YOU'RE WAITING FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE YOU MORE MONEY IN THE WAY OF JOBS. >> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS ON THAT NOTE. WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO GET HUNG UP ON THINGS LIKE TAX CUTS AND NIBBLING AT THE EDGES OF THESE THINGS? >> BECAUSE WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO HELP THE FEW THAT ARE HERE. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO TRY TO BRING THE PERIPHERAL STUFF THAT WE CAN. YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT TRYING TO BRING IN THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE A WORK FORCE FOR, WHETHER IT'S -- YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GOT ON ME WHEN I WAS IN THE LEGISLATURE, GENE, ABOUT CALL CENTERS. WHY ARE WE GOING AFTER CALL CENTERS FOR? CALL CENTERS ARE LOW-PAYING JOBS, THEY DON'T HELP. BUT MY DAD USED TO HAVE A SAYING. HE SAID, THE BEST TIME TO

GET A GOOD JOB IS TO HAVE A BAD JOB, IT'S NOT TO BE UNEMPLOYED. AND WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. WE DON'T HAVE THIS HI-TECH -- YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT SILICONE VALLEY. WE'RE NOT LOS ANGELES. WE'RE NOT NEW YORK. WE'RE NOT CHICAGO. WE HAVE A DIFFERENT WORK FORCE IN THIS STATE. AND I THINK THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN CHANGE OVERNIGHT. WE'VE GOT TO TAKE BABY STEPS. WE'VE GOT TO PUT PEOPLE TO WORK. >> SOPHIE, YOU'RE ON THE FRONT END OF A LOT OF TECHNOLOGY. >> I WANT TO JUMP IN ON SOMETHING THAT DAN JUST SAID AND DISAGREE WITH AN ASPECT AND THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS I DISAGREE WITH, BUT ONE IS THIS. THE FEDERAL LABS IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GENERATORS OF INNOVATION -- >> I AGREE. >> -- FOR OUR STATE. >> AND JOBS >> AND JOBS. AND THE CLUSTER OF SMALL BUSINESSES THAT EITHER SPIN OUT OF THE LABS, OR COME HERE TO BE NEAR THOSE LABS, HAVE BEEN A REAL BOON TO OUR ECONOMY. WE HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARILY CREATIVE WORK CLASS, WORK FORCE WORKING FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HERE IN NEW MEXICO, AND I THINK THAT TO THE EXTENT THAT THE LABS ARE ALSO UNDER FIRE, BECAUSE WE'RE SEEING CUTS COMING FROM THE FEDS, THAT HAS A TENDENCY, I BELIEVE, TO STIFLE CREATIVITY, WHEN YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR JOB, WHEN YOU'RE CONCERNED

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO KEEP IT. I LOOK TO OUR SENATORS, OUR CONGRESS PEOPLE, TO TRY TO GENERATE ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR SANDIA AND LOS ALAMOS. THAT IS A REAL SOURCE OF -- >> LET ME CHALLENGE YOU ON SOMETHING HOWEVER, SOPHIE. AREN'T YOU TALKING IN 1990 ERA TERMS, LIKE LOOKING FOR THE LABS TO BE THE SAVIOR, SO TO SPEAK? SHOULDN'T WE BE PUSHING PAST THAT AT THIS POINT? >> WHAT HAPPENS IN AN ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THE LABS ENCOURAGE TECHNOLOGY COMMERCIALIZATION IS THAT IT DOESN'T ALL STAY ON CAMPUS. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? >> IT DOESN'T STAY IN NEW MEXICO. THAT'S THE PROBLEM >> WELL, I THINK THAT'S A GOOD POINT >> THESE JOBS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE PROBLEM IS WHEN THEY DO SPIN OFF, THEY REQUIRE THE FEDS TO HIRE THEM TO DO THE WORK. THEY'RE NOT SPINNING OFF AND CREATING A STAND-ALONE COMPANY LIKE AT&T. >> THE BIGGER ISSUE IS WE DON'T HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF VENTURE CAPITAL HERE. WE HAVE SOME VENTURE CAPITAL, BUT OFTEN VC FIRMS WILL SAY TO A PROMISING COMPANY SITTING IN LOS

ALAMOS, WE WANT YOU HERE NEAR US IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, AND THAT'S THE PIECE THAT WE'RE MISSING. >> FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, RICHARD, YOU'VE SEEN THIS, YOU'VE BEEN IN SO MANY COMMITTEE HEARINGS, YOU'VE HEARD ALL THIS BEFORE. I MEAN, ENDLESSLY, ENDLESSLY, ENDLESSLY. IS THERE A COMMON THREAD THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE BROKEN IN OUR APPROACH, OUR THOUGHT PROCESS? >> YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT REDUCING TAXES, AND WE DID. WE PASSED A HUGE TAX CUT, PERSONAL INCOME TAX, AND WE WERE TOLD BY REPUBLICANS AT THE TIME THAT IF WE DID THIS, PEOPLE WOULD JUST COME OUT HERE. >> THIS WAS UNDER GOVERNOR >> ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, WE ARE NOW LOWER THAN ARIZONA, UTAH AND COLORADO. OF COURSE, TEXAS DOESN'T HAVE THEM, BUT THEY HAVE HIGHER TAXES IN OTHER AREAS. THE RIO GRANDE FOUNDATION DOING AWAY WITH THE RIGHT TO WORK LAW, THAT'S NONSENSE. IT'S KIND OF LIKE GARY JOHNSON'S OLD IDEAS THAT USED TO COME OUT, LIKE I CAN BUILD THREE SCHOOLS FOR THE PRICE OF TWO IF WE DO AWAY WITH THE PREVAILING WAGE ACT, THE DAVIS-BACON ACT. >> I REMEMBER THAT. >> I SAY THAT IF GARY JOHNSON HAD THE OPPORTUNITY,

HE'D STILL BUILD TWO, AND HE'D PROFIT THE OTHER. >> WHY IS PROFIT A BAD WORD? >> IT'S NOT A BAD WORD, BUT I'M JUST TELLING YOU, THAT'S WHAT HE WOULD DO, BECAUSE HE WAS NOT BEING TRUTHFUL ABOUT IT. WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO DO AWAY WITH A LAW THAT KEEPS WAGES UP? BECAUSE BUSINESSES SURELY WON'T. YOU KNOW, FOR CAPITALISM TO SURVIVE, YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TAX LAWS, MANIPULATE THE TAX LAWS, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF LABOR, TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO WORK FOR AS LITTLE AS YOU CAN, AND THEN RAPE THE ENVIRONMENT IF YOU HAVE TO. I MEAN, TAKE ADVANTAGE. IN OTHER WORDS, DO WHAT YOU CAN WITH AS LITTLE AS YOU HAVE TO BRING BACK TO THE TABLE IN TERMS OF THE ENVIRONMENT, AND THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE -- >> SO WHO'S ATTRACTED TO THAT ENVIRONMENT? WHAT KIND OF BUSINESS? WHAT KIND OF COMPANY? WHAT KIND OF CEO? WHO DO YOU ATTRACT WITH THAT? >> I THINK OUR BUSINESS CLIMATE IS VERY FRIENDLY. WE WANT BUSINESSES HERE. WE TRY TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. WE PASS LAWS THAT GIVE THEM BREAKS IN TERMS OF ANY TAXES. >> BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM. >> WELL, IT IS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY LEAVE US. >> WELL, THEY START PICKING WINNERS. WE'RE PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS. >> BUT A BIG PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE HERE IS OUR WATER. >> IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM. >> IT'S HUGE. PEOPLE SEE THAT, AND THEY

JUST BACK AWAY. I MEAN, IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT TURNS THEM OFF. THE OTHER THING IS, I THINK OUR POLITICAL CLIMATE IS TOUGH. THE INSTABILITY, I THINK, WITH THE POLITICIANS AND THE POLICIES AND THE FIGHTING THAT GOES ON, I THINK, IS NOT GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY. >> I WANT TO RE-TOUCH BACK TO SOPHIE'S POINT, BECAUSE YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT. THERE ARE SOME TECHNOLOGY SIGNS HERE OF POTENTIAL FLOWERING THAT HAS BEEN VERY EXCITING. VERY, VERY EXCITING >> WELL, I THINK IT'S ONGOING. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? SO WE CAN POINT TO TECHNOLOGY COMING OUT OF THE LABS AND SAY, THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME, THAT IS A RELATIVELY STABLE SOURCE, WHICH IS A CRAZY THING TO SAY IN INNOVATION. BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL IS THAT AS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CUTS TAXES TO UNPRECEDENTEDLY LOW LEVELS, AS THEY CUT TAXES, AS THEY CUT INVESTMENT, AS THEY CUT MONEY GOING TO INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT ALSO TO INNOVATION, WE'RE NOT SEEING THE STABILITY IN OUR LAB WORK FORCE THAT WE SAW AT ONE TIME. >> I'VE GOT TO SAY SOMETHING HERE, BECAUSE I

THINK THAT NEW MEXICO COULD REALLY BE THE CAPITAL OF START-UPS. BUT WE'RE NOT. WE DON'T NURTURE THEM. >> WE HAVE A HISTORY OF RUNNING THEM OUT. ASK BILL GATES. >> EXACTLY. WE DON'T NURTURE THEM. AND I THINK WE HAVE THIS OBSESSION WITH, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE DON'T HAVE ANY FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES HERE, WE DON'T HAVE THAT LEVEL. SO LET'S FIGURE OUT -- CAN WE FIGURE OUT HOW TO NURTURE THOSE TO BECOME ONE OF THEM ONE DAY? >> BUT YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, JAMIE? I'VE BEEN AROUND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CIRCLES FOR A LONG TIME. HERE'S WHAT EVERYONE SAYS. OH, THESE GUYS ARE JUST ONESIES-TWOSIES. THEY'RE JUST ONESIES-TWOSIES. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HIRE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE. THEY'RE NOT THE BILL GATES OF THE WORLD, JUST ONESIES-TWOSIES. >> WHEN YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF 25-PERSON STARTS-UPS, THAT'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF HIGH-WAGE PAYING JOBS. MANY OF THEM ARE SERVICE JOBS, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IN MANUFACTURING, OR WHATEVER. THEY'RE REQUIRING HIGH-SKILLED HIGH LABOR. >> WE'RE UNDER A MINUTE. I JUST WANT TO THROW THIS THING OUT, SOMETHING YOU GUYS MAY OR MAY NOT BE AWARE OF. CURT SCHILLING, EX-BASEBALL PLAYER, JUST LOST $50 MILLION IN PERSONAL

MONEY IN A GAMING COMPANY THAT EVERYBODY THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE THE NEXT BIG THING. THIS IS A RISK ENVIRONMENT, DAN. SO WHO'S GOING TO ROLL THE DICE? >> HE DIDN'T GO TO THE GOVERNMENT. >> THAT'S RIGHT. HE DIDN'T WANT A HAND-OUT. >> BUT IT'S HIS MONEY. >> THE PROBLEM IS THIS. WE TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE SPIN-OFFS FROM THE LABS, AND WE DO HAVE SOME THAT DO DO GOOD, BUT THEY'RE DEPENDENT ON THE LABS BUYING BACK THEIR TECHNOLOGY. SO IT'S A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY. THEY'RE NOT OUT THERE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THEM, JAMIE. WE HAVE NOT HAD HUGE CORPORATIONS IN THIS STATE THAT HAVE SPUN OUT OF LOS ALAMOS THAT AREN'T DEPENDENT ON GOVERNMENT DOLLARS KEEPING THEM GOING. THEY'RE SELLING BACK TO THE DOD, OR DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND I THINK THAT HURTS US BECAUSE WE'RE SO DEPENDENT ON THAT. I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, AND THE PROBLEM IS, THIS STATE HAS TO DECIDE, WE NEED TO STOP PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS. THE MONEY WE THREW AT SCHOTT SOLAR, WHY? THERE'S 50 OTHER SOLAR COMPANIES OUT THERE. WHY DID WE PICK ONE COMPANY? >> THEY'RE INTERNATIONAL. THEY HAD A TRACK RECORD. >> BUT EVERYBODY KNEW WHERE

THAT WAS GOING >> NO, I DISAGREE WITH THAT. EVERYONE DID NOT KNOW WHERE THAT WAS GOING. >> I WAS IN THE COMMITTEE MEETINGS, AND WE WERE GETTING THE REPORTS THAT WERE TELLING US, CHINA IS DOING THIS, AND CHINA IS DOING IT FOR LESS THAN YOU CAN DO IT TODAY. SO WE DID KNOW THAT. SO I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE JOBS IN NEW MEXICO -- I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO REALIZE WE'RE A UNIQUE STATE, THAT WATER IS A HUGE ISSUE IN THIS STATE. IT'S AN ISSUE IN ARIZONA. IT'S AN ISSUE IN PARTS OF CALIFORNIA. IT'S AN ISSUE IN THE ENTIRE WESTERN UNITED STATES. BUT I THINK THAT WHAT WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT IS HOW TO GET A WORK FORCE UP AND GOING. AND I'LL CLOSE BY TELLING YOU THIS. I HAD A EMPLOYER IN MY DISTRICT THAT HAD 110 OPENINGS, AND THEY STARTED OUT AT $24 AN HOUR. HE INTERVIEWED 250 PEOPLE DOWN IN CHAVEZ COUNTY. OF THE 100 THAT HE HIRED, FIVE PASSED THE DRUG TEST. >> WOW. >> AFTER HE HIRED THOSE FIVE, AFTER THE FIRST PAYDAY, ONE CAME BACK TO WORK. THAT'S THE PROBLEM IN NEW MEXICO THAT WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ADDRESS, TO ADDRESS THIS WORK DEVELOPMENT IN THIS STATE. >> WELL SAID. AFTER THE BREAK, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR

>> HOW MUCH OF THE PUBLIC'S RIGHT TO KNOW -- >> IT DOESN'T EXIST. >> IT DOESN'T EXIST? REALLY? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, IT DOESN'T EXIST? >> THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW EVERYTHING, BUT AS A POLITICIAN, I THINK YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF. AND YOU WILL SPEAK PUBLICLY ABOUT ISSUES, BUT YOU NEVER SPEAK WHAT'S IN YOUR HEART SIMPLY BECAUSE EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAY WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU AT THE NEXT CAMPAIGN. I MEAN, YOU KNOW THAT >> CONSERVATIVE AUTHOR, EDITOR AND COMMENTATOR JONAH GOLDBERG HAS MADE A NAME FOR HIMSELF THROUGH BOOK TITLES LIKE "LIBERAL FACISM," THROUGH HIS SYNDICATED COLUMN, AND HIS WORK AS EDITOR OF THE NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE. RECENTLY, HE SAT DOWN WITH NMIF PRODUCER MATT GRUBS TO TALK ABOUT COMPROMISE AND THE SWELTERING POLITICAL CLIMATE IN OUR NATION'S SWELTERING CAPITOL. >> JOHAN GOLDBERG IS AN AUTHOR, CONSERVATOR COMMENTATOR, AND EDITOR AT

LARGE OF THE NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE, IN ADDITION TO A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS. ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL. I WANT TO START BY JUST ASKING YOU TO DEFINE OUR POLITICAL CLIMATE, OR CHARACTERIZE IT FOR US. >> SURE. AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME GLAD TO BE HERE >> OF COURSE >> I'D SAY OUR POLITICAL CLIMATE -- THE ONLY REASON I'M HESITATING IS BECAUSE I CAN DESCRIBE IT AS POLARIZED AND ALL OF THOSE KIND OF THINGS, I'M NOT SURE THAT'S PEJORATIVE. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO THINK IT'S TERRIBLE. WE'RE HEARING THIS CONSTANTLY, ABOUT HOW THE SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE IS GONE, AND THINGS ARE SO MUCH LESS CIVIL, AND ALL OF THAT. AND I THINK THERE'S SOME TRUTH TO THAT, THINGS ARE PRETTY RAW, PARTICULARLY IN WASHINGTON THESE DAYS POLITICALLY, AND WE ARE VERY POLARIZED. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE'RE POLARIZED IS BECAUSE WE'RE REACHING A MOMENT OF SOME FUNDAMENTAL CHOICES ABOUT THE NATURE OF OUR GOVERNMENT, THE NATURE

OF OUR POLITICS, THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH DEEP-SEATED AND PROFOUND DISAGREEMENTS ON THOSE QUESTIONS. AND IT'S INEVITABLE THAT RHETORIC GETS HEATED AND THINGS GET A LITTLE UNCIVIL UNDER THESE KINDS OF SITUATIONS BECAUSE THE STAKES ARE REALLY HIGH. >> SURE. WE HAD SAM DONALDSON IN HERE A FEW WEEKS BACK, AND HE DESIGNED POLITICS AS THE ART OF THE POSSIBLE, AND IT SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING OF A LOST ART LATELY, BECAUSE THERE'S NO MIDDLE GROUND, AND WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE ESSENTIALLY NOTHING GETS DONE EXCEPT ON AN AD HOC BASIS. WE HAVE THESE BUDGET BILLS THAT GET PASSED EVERY FOUR MONTHS, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IS THAT CONCERNING, OR DO YOU FEEL LIKE IT'S NOT PERMANENT, THAT IT'S NOT SOME SORT OF STASIS? >> FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK IT'S PERMANENT. I COULD CERTAINLY GET INTO A FAIRLY PARTISAN BLAME GAME THING ABOUT HOW PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS GOVERNED AND ALL THAT, AND I'M GLAD TO GET INTO IT, IF YOU'D LIKE. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE WAYS TO THINK ABOUT IT IS -- THERE'S A FASCINATING ARTICLE IN A JOURNAL CALLED NATIONAL AFFAIRS BY JAY COST, AND THE TITLE IS CALLED "THE POLITICS OF

LOSS." AND ONE OF THE POINTS THAT HE MAKES IS THAT SINCE WORLD WAR II, WE'VE HAD SUCH PROSPERITY IN THIS COUNTRY, SUCH GROWTH, THAT POLITICS WASN'T THE ZERO SUM. I COULD GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED, AND I COULD ALSO GIVE SOMEONE ELSE WHAT THEY WANTED, AND IT WOULDN'T COST ANYBODY. AND WE ARE NOW, BECAUSE OF THE EXPLODING DEFICIT, THE LACK OF GROWTH, THAT PERIOD SEEMS TO BE COMING TO AN END, AND SO NOW IF I GIVE JOE SOMETHING, IT MEANS THAT I'M TAKING IT AWAY FROM JOHN, AND POLITICS ARE BECOMES ZERO SUM. AND FOR DEMOCRATS TO WIN ON THEIR ISSUES, IT MEANS REPUBLICANS HAVE TO LOSE ON THEIR ISSUES, AND VICE VERSA. WE SAW THAT AND HOW IT PLAYED OUT IN WISCONSIN. THAT'S SORT OF, I THINK, THE NATURE OF POLITICS FOR A WHILE NOW, AND IT JUST FOLLOWS THAT IT'S GOING TO BE NASTIER. I THINK THE SORT OF QUEST TO JUST HAVE COMPROMISE FOR COMPROMISE'S SAKE IS SORT OF

RIDICULOUS. IF I SAY TWO PLUS TWO IS FOUR, AND YOU SAY TWO PLUS TWO IS TEN, I DON'T THINK IT'S A HUGE STEP FORWARD IF WE SETTLE AND AGREE IT'S SIX. SO MUCH OF WHAT WE MEAN BY COMPROMISE IN WASHINGTON IS BASICALLY FOR, BY MY SIGHTS, CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERTARIANS WHO ARE DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY TO BASICALLY CAVE IN ON THEIR PRINCIPLES AND THEIR OBJECTIVES, AND AGREE TO THE FUNDAMENTAL ASSUMPTIONS OF THE DEMOCRATS ABOUT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S SUSTAINABLE ANYMORE. >> AT LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE LEFT WOULD SAY, IF YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION HANDLED HEALTH CARE, THAT HE CAVED TOO MUCH ON HIS FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF HOW THAT SYSTEM SHOULD OPERATE, AND THAT IT SWUNG THE OTHER WAY. DOES IT HAPPEN ON BOTH SIDES? >> SURE. YOU KNOW, THE THING IS, PART OF THE PROBLEM IS I THINK -- WELL, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. THE LEFT WOULD SAY, PHILOSOPHICALLY, OBAMA CARE IS A BIG COMPROMISE. POLITICALLY, IT WAS NOT. SENATOR PATRICK MOYNIHAN

USED TO SAY, IN TERMS OF WELFARE REFORM AND HEALTH CARE, UNDER HILLARY CLINTON AND THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, THAT YOU CAN'T PASS SWEEPING NEW SOCIAL CHANGES ON A PARTISAN BASIS. AND OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS A LOT OF BLAME TO GO AROUND ABOUT WHO WAS BEING THE MOST PARTISAN AND ALL THE REST, AND THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM WAS THE REPUBLICANS, BUT I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS YOU HAVE WITH OBAMA CARE WAS THAT OBAMA BASICALLY DECIDED WHO'S GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH HIMSELF, AND THAT WAS DRIVEN ENTIRELY BY AN INTERNAL CONVERSATION WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT THE REPUBLICANS WERE LARGELY LOCKED OUT OF. SO WHEN THEY ENDED UP HAVING TO PASS IT, IT WAS ALMOST AN ENTIRELY DEMOCRATIC CREATURE, WITH A VERY FEW REPUBLICAN VOTES, AND THEY NEVER WON A CONSENSUS OF SUPPORT IN THE COUNTRY AT LARGE. SO THOSE COMPROMISES THAT HE MAY HAVE MADE, THAT HE MADE ON HIS OWN WITH THE LEFT, HE DIDN'T MAKE THEM IN TERMS OF WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. HE DIDN'T MEET WITH THEM IN NEGOTIATIONS, AND CERTAINLY DIDN'T NEGOTIATE ON THE STIMULUS. AND SO I THINK A LOT OF THE

POISONOUS ATMOSPHERE WE HAVE IN WASHINGTON STEMS FROM THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD THESE HUGE MAJORITIES IN CONGRESS WHEN HE FIRST CAME IN, GOT HIS AGENDA, AND IMPOSED IT ON THE REPUBLICANS WITHOUT GETTING A BUY-IN FROM THEM. AND PERSONALLY, HE WOULD BE IN SO MUCH BETTER SHAPE TODAY IF HE HAD GOTTEN THAT BUY-IN. ON THE STIMULUS, IF HE'D GOTTEN THE REPUBLICANS ON BOARD WITH IT, AND I CERTAINLY THINK HE COULD HAVE -- >> REALLY? >> ABSOLUTELY. PEOPLE PLAY THIS MOVIE BACKWARDS AND SAY, OH, THE REPUBLICANS ARE SO PARTISAN TODAY. ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE'RE SO PARTISAN IS BECAUSE OF HOW THE STIMULUS WAS DONE. I THINK THE STIMULUS WAS THE UNDOING OF THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY. IF YOU TALKED TO REPUBLICANS ON CAPITOL HILL AT THE BEGINNING OF THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY, THEY WERE TERRIFIED THAT OBAMA WAS GOING TO GIVE THEM HALF A LOAF ON THE STIMULUS. IT WASN'T THAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO GET ALL OF THE REPUBLICANS ON BOARD, BUT HE COULD EASILY HAVE GOTTEN 20%, 30%, 40% OF THE REPUBLICANS. PEOPLE FORGET, OBAMA WAS AT 70 PLUS APPROVAL RATINGS BACK THEN. BUT THEY GOT SO GREEDY WITH THE WAY THEY DID IT, THEY DIDN'T NEGOTIATE WITH THE REPUBLICANS IN GOOD FAITH,

AT LEAST FROM THE WAY THE REPUBLICANS SAW IT, AND PEOPLE SAY, OH, OBAMA PUT IN TAX CUTS AND ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF, AND NO, HE PUT SPENDING THROUGH THE TAX CODE. TAX BREAKS FOR THE ACTIVITIES THAT HE LIKED. HE DIDN'T PUT IN ANY OF THE KIND OF TAX CUTS THAT THE REPUBLICANS WANTED. SO THE DEMOCRATS GOT VERY GREEDY ON THAT, THEY PASSED THE STIMULUS WITHOUT REPUBLICANS, AND WHAT THE REPUBLICANS LEARNED FROM THAT IS THAT THEY COULD VOTE AGAINST OBAMA AND GAIN POLITICALLY FOR IT, THAT THEY WOULD BE REWARDED BY THEIR OWN VOTERS. IF REPUBLICANS HAD DONE THAT TO LBJ AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GREAT SOCIETY, THE LEADERS AT HOME WOULD HAVE WOKEN UP WITH THEIR FAVORITE HORSE'S HEAD IN THEIR BED. >> THAT WAS A MUCH DIFFERENT REPUBLICAN PARTY BACK THEN. >> SURE, BUT IT SET THE TONE IN WASHINGTON THAT THE REPUBLICANS COULD DEFY OBAMA AND NOT BE PUNISHED FOR IT, AND NOT BE HURT FOR IT, AND STAND ON THEIR PRINCIPLES, AND IT CREATED THIS ENVIRONMENT, AND WHAT OBAMA TOOK FROM THAT IS, WELL, IF THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO BE LIKE THIS, I DON'T NEED THEM. >> SO SORT OF A FAILURE OF STRATEGY? BUT DID NECESSARILY THE -- I MEAN, WE LOOK AT THOSE REPORTS THAT SAID, ESSENTIALLY, THIS $800 MILLION STIMULUS WAS RECOMMENDED BY SOME PEOPLE

TO BE $1.4 TRILLION, OR $1.6 TRILLION. >> SURE. >> CAN YOU SAY THAT THAT WAS THE IMPRUDENT THING TO DO AT THAT POINT, THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER TO DO THE $1.4 OR THE $1.6? >> YOU CAN CERTAINLY MAKE THAT ARGUMENT, BUT IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE ASSUMPTION ECONOMY NEEDED AND ALL THAT, I'M NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR. I THINK ONE OF THE OTHER PROBLEMS WITH THE STIMULUS IS THAT THE WAY IT WAS STRUCTURED, IS IT WASN'T STRUCTURED TO PUT MONEY DIRECTLY INTO PEOPLE'S HANDS. IT WAS STRUCTURED TO BAIL OUT STATE GOVERNMENTS, BAIL OUT STATE PUBLIC SECTOR UNIONS, TO FUND ALL THESE GREEN ENERGY BOONDOGGLES, TO PAY FOR THE SHOVEL READY JOBS THAT DIDN'T EXIST, THAT OBAMA HAS EVEN ADMITTED DIDN'T EXIST. EVEN SUPPLY SIDERS, OR FREE MARKET ECONOMISTS THOUGHT HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN A BIGGER BOUNCE BY DUMPING A TRILLION DOLLARS INTO THE ECONOMY THAN HE DID, BUT I THINK THE STIMULUS WAS STRUCTURED AS A PAY-OFF FOR PARTS OF THE DEMOCRATIC COALITION. I FAVORED AT THE TIME, IF WE WERE GOING TO DO A STIMULUS, BASICALLY HAVING A PAYROLL TAX HOLIDAY. PUT A TRILLION DOLLARS

STRAIGHT INTO THE POCKETS OF WORKERS. NO COMPLIANCE. NO PAPERWORK. JUST DO IT STRAIGHT LIKE THAT. THERE WERE A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED THAT. NEWT GINGRICH WAS TOUTING IT AT THE TIME. BUT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WANTED TO DO THIS TOP DOWN KIND OF THING WHERE WE'RE GOING TO DESIGN A SOLUTION FROM ABOVE. SO I THINK IT WAS POORLY DESIGNED, AND POORLY IMPLEMENTED. AND ONE THING I'VE HEARD EVEN FROM DEMOCRATS ON CAPITOL HILL IS THAT THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE HAS A TERRIBLE RELATIONSHIP WITH CONGRESS. IT NEVER CULTIVATED CONGRESS. THEY BASICALLY CULTIVATED NANCY PELOSI AND HARRY REID, AND THAT WAS IT. AND SO ONCE THE REPUBLICANS TOOK OVER THE HOUSE, THEY HAD NO OPERATION FOR HOW TO WORK WITH THE INSTITUTION, NEVER MIND THE OTHER PARTY. >> BUT IT WAS SORT OF A -- YOU LOOK AT THE FOLKS ON THE LEFT AND THEY SAY, LOOK, TURNABOUT IS FAIR PLAY. WE HAD NOTHING IN THE SECOND TERM OF THE BUSH PRESIDENCY AND THERE WAS NO WAY FOR US TO APPROACH HIM, AND THEY JUST GOVERNED AROUND US. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL, LOOK, THE DEMOCRATS TOOK BACK THE -- PEOPLE FORGET THAT THE ECONOMY REALLY STARTED TO GET BAD AFTER THE DEMOCRATS TOOK BACK THE CONGRESS IN 2006. >> BUT THIS IDEA THAT

ECONOMICS HAPPENS AND THERE'S THIS IMMEDIATE IMPACT, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY WRONG. >> I DON'T THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY WRONG, BUT I THINK IT'S DEEPLY FLAWED. I'M NOT TRYING TO DISAGREE WITH YOU, BUT YOU HEAR THE TALKING POINTS ABOUT HOW IT WAS ALL ON BUSH'S WATCH, AND IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THAT KIND OF POLITICAL CAUSATION AND CORRELATION GAME, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO LOOK AT WHO WAS RUNNING WHAT AT THE TIME. MY ONLY POINT IS, LOOK, BUSH WAS A PARAGON OF COMPROMISE AND BIPARTISANSHIP COMPARED TO PRESIDENT OBAMA. BUSH'S FIRST PRIORITY WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE WAS TO WORK WITH TED KENNEDY ON "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND." >> ON WHICH TED KENNEDY HAD MANY OF THE SAME COMPLAINTS THAT I'VE HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT RONALD REAGAN HAVING WITH SOME OF THE TAX INCREASES THAT HE HAD, WHICH WAS, WHERE ARE THOSE SPENDING CUTS? TED KENNEDY ESSENTIALLY SAID, WAIT A SECOND, WE CAME UP WITH THIS PLAN, WHERE IS THE MONEY TO DO IT? WHICH IS WHY YOU'RE SEEING WHAT'S GOING ON NOW WITH THE AMERICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM. >> WELL, BIRDS GOT TO FLY, FISH GOT TO SWIM, TED KENNEDY'S GOT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT INSUFFICIENT FUNDING OF FEDERAL PROGRAMS. THE IDEA THAT THE PROBLEMS WITH THE AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM ARE A DIRECT RESULT OF THE LACK OF FEDERAL FUNDING IS A REALLY

PROBLEMATIC ONE, BY MY EYES. BUSH INCREASED SPENDING ON EDUCATION BY 58% ON HIS WATCH. >> BUT IT'S NOT JUST A LACK OF FEDERAL FUNDING, IT'S WHERE THE FINDING IS BEING PUSHED. BECAUSE THERE IS, AS YOU SAID, THERE IS FEDERAL FUNDING FLOWING INTO SCHOOLS. CERTAINLY ALL OUR PROPERTY TAXES PAY FOR IT, AND THAT SORT OF THING. AND I THINK BOTH PARTIES WOULD AGREE THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. BUT YOU CAN'T LOOK AT "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" AND SAY THAT IT WAS -- THAT IT DID WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DO, BECAUSE THE MONEY -- >> LOOK, I WAS A HUGE FAN OF "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND," BUT IT WAS CERTAINLY BIPARTISAN. HE CERTAINLY WORKED ON IT WITH DEMOCRATS. HE GOT -- YOU KNOW, BUSH GOT VOTES FOR ALMOST ALL OF HIS SIGNATURE STUFF. IT, BUT A LOT OF HIS SIGNATURE PROGRAMS WERE BIPARTISAN. BUSH CAME INTO OFFICE AS SORT OF A NON-FIRE BREATHING CONSERVATIVE. HE WAS A COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE. HE EXPANDED GOVERNMENT. HE SPENT ENORMOUSLY ON EDUCATION.

YOU KNOW, THE VOTES FOR THE WAR, DESPITE ALL OF THE HULLABALOO, WERE BIPARTISAN BE VOTES. I MEAN, PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SECRETARY OF STATE AND VICE-PRESIDENT BOTH VOTED FOR THE IRAQ WAR. BUSH WAS MUCH BETTER AT WORKING WITH DEMOCRATS THAN OBAMA HAS BEEN AT WORKING WITH REPUBLICANS. AND AGAIN, I AGREE WITH YOU, ALL OF THIS, WHO STARTED IT, AND ALL OF THESE KINDS OF GAMES, AND THE RESPONSES TO EVERYTHING I SAID, THAT'S FINE. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, MY LARGER POINT IS, THE TONE IN WASHINGTON, REGARDLESS OF THE PARTISAN BLAME GAME THING, REFLECTS DEEP AND SERIOUS PHILOSOPHICAL DISAGREEMENTS, MATHEMATICAL DISAGREEMENTS, THAT CAN'T BE OVERCOME SIMPLY IN THE SPIRIT OF COMPROMISE. ONE SIDE IN THE SENSE NEEDS TO WIN, AND ONE SIDE NEEDS TO LOSE. YOU KNOW, JIM DeMINT SAYS, HEY, LOOK, I'M ALL IN FAVOR OF COMPROMISE, BUT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO COMPROMISE WITH US ABOUT HOW MUCH TO CUT, NOT HOW MUCH TO SPEND. AND THAT IS AN ARGUMENT THAT

YOU CANNOT SOLVE. YOU EITHER HAVE TO AGREE THAT WE ARE IN AN AGE OF AUSTERITY AND WE NEED TO CUT SPENDING, OR WE'RE NOT IN AN AGE OF AUSTERITY AND WE NEED TO INCREASE SPENDING. AND YOU CAN'T FIND THE MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN THOSE TWO PERSPECTIVES >> WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S TO COME IN DECEMBER WITH AUTOMATIC CUTS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE START TO LOOK AT, YEAH, RIGHT, THAT KIND OF A THING, SHOULD THOSE GO INTO PLACE? >> TECHNICALLY, NO. >> YOU DON'T THINK SO? >> WELL, I JUST THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A HUGE -- AND IT DEPENDS ON WHAT'S GOING ON IN EUROPE, BUT IT WOULD BE AN ENORMOUS FINANCIAL BLOW. EVEN BILL CLINTON HAS SAID TO HAVE ALL THESE TAX HIKES GO INTO EFFECT, AND HAVE THESE DEVASTATING CUTS TO THE DEFENSE BUDGET AND ALL THAT, I WOULD RATHER NOT SEE THOSE THINGS HAPPEN. I WOULD RATHER HAVE, YOU KNOW, A LEGITIMATE COMPROMISE ALONG THE LINES OF THE ONE THAT OBAMA'S DEBT COMMISSION PROPOSED. THE SIMPSON BOWLES COMMISSION. I DIDN'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING IN THERE, BUT THE BASIC PRINCIPLES I THOUGHT WERE PRETTY SOUND AND PRETTY SERIOUS. BUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS

REJECTED THAT, OR AT LEAST BARACK OBAMA REJECTED THAT BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE REQUIRED GOING TO HIS OWN BASE AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICS OF ZERO -- YOU KNOW, THE POLITICS OF PLEASING EVERYBODY ARE OVER. AND I AGREE WITH HIM ON THAT, BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO ACTUALLY SELL THAT MESSAGE TO HIS OWN PARTY. >> WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT SIMPSON BOWLES CAME UP WITH, CAN OUR BUDGET BE REINED IN WITHOUT SOMEHOW FUNDAMENTALLY CUTTING THE FUNDING FOR OUR DEFENSE? I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT SORT OF THAT BIG PIE THERE, AND I DON'T SEE HOW IT CAN BE DONE. NOW, I'M NOT IN WASHINGTON RUNNING THE BUDGET, OR RUNNING THE COUNTRY. >> LOOK, I'M SORT OF AN OUTLIER ON THIS. I'M WILLING TO CONTEMPLATE -- I THINK SWEEPING DEFENSE CUTS -- YOU KNOW, I CAN'T STAND THIS, WE NEED 10% ACROSS THE BOARD EVERYWHERE KIND OF APPROACH. WE DON'T DO THAT IN OUR HOME

BUDGETS. WE DON'T SAY, WELL, I'M GOING TO CUT 10% OFF OF MY CABLE, 10% OFF OF MY FOOD, 10% OFF OF MY CLEANING PRODUCTS. I MEAN, SOME THINGS YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR. >> JUST THINGS YOU CAN LIVE WITHOUT. >> RIGHT. SO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN DOING MAJOR CUTS ALL ALONG, AND IT HAS BEEN SHRINKING QUITE A BIT ALREADY. BUT I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU LOOK AT IT, AND YOU LOOK AT THE NEEDS WE HAVE AROUND THE WORLD, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE'S GOT TO BE SOME CUTS THERE, AND I AM OPEN TO THAT. BUT THE REAL MONEY IS TO BE FOUND IN ENTITLEMENTS. THAT'S THE SIMPLE FACT OF IT. IT'S MEDICARE AND MEDICAID. AND THAT SEEMS TO ME IS WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE REALLY INNOVATIVE GOVERNMENT, AND INNOVATION SEEMS TO SCARE THE DICKENS OUT OF THE SORT OF ENTRENCHED CLASSES IN WASHINGTON. >> JONAH GOLDBERG, THANKS FOR COMING IN. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. >> YOU GIVE SOMEONE JUST A

LITTLE BIT OF A CHANCE IN MANY PLACES, THEY WILL REALLY SEEK TO FIND THAT OPPORTUNITY. AND THAT'S WHAT WE THINK. THE MARKET, ITSELF, IS REALLY APOLITICAL, BUT IN A WAY, JUST PROVIDING PEOPLE WITH ONE WEEKEND'S WORTH OF OPPORTUNITY IS A PRETTY POLITICAL ACT, YOU KNOW. AND THE IMPACTS ARE AMAZING. THIS YEAR, OVER 360,000 FAMILY MEMBERS WILL BE IMPACTED BY WHAT'S EARNED AT >> THE OPEN GOVERNMENT DEBATE IS A LONG ONE AND A STRONG ONE IN NEW MEXICO THIS SUMMER. WE FIRST LEARNED THAT THE STATE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT COMPILED TEACHER EMAIL LISTS FOR GOVERNOR MARTINEZ'S TOP POLITICAL ADVISOR, THEN DISTRIBUTED THEM VIA PRIVATE EMAIL ADDRESSES. THEN WE LEARNED THAT MANY POLITICIANS - BOTH CURRENT AND FORMER GOVERNORS, ACTUALLY, AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT - FEEL THAT USING PRIVATE EMAIL ADDRESSES TO CHAT ABOUT OFFICIAL BUSINESS EXEMPTS THEM FROM OPEN

GOVERNMENT LAWS. THIS IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING. THEN, A ROUND OF FINGER-POINTING BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR'S STAFF, THE LEFT-LEANING GROUP THAT DUG UP THE PRIVATE EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE, REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL -- ANYBODY CONFUSED YET? AT THE HEART OF IT ALL IS THIS QUESTION: SHOULD THE PUBLIC BE ALLOWED TO SEE THE PRIVATE EMAILS OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS IF THEY CONTAIN DISCUSSION OF OFFICIAL BUSINESS? I PUT THAT TO YOU, MR. ROMERO. >> YOU KNOW, I THINK THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE IN THIS SITUATION, AND I THINK WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO END UP DIFFICULT ISSUE TO GET YOUR HANDS AROUND AND CONTROL, I THINK WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE IS, IT'S GOING TO BE PUSHED UNDERGROUND. PEOPLE WILL COMMUNICATE UNDERGROUND. IN ARIZONA, THEIR LEGISLATURE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE OPEN CAUCUSES. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS? THE CAUCUS CHAIR CALLS THE CAUCUS, AND NOBODY SHOWS UP. AND THE PRO TEM SPEAKER ENDS UP GOING TO INDIVIDUALS TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T VIOLATE THE LAW AND COMMUNICATING THAT WAY. I MEAN, A POLITICIAN WOULD

BE FOOLISH TO PUT THEIR TRUE FEELINGS OUT THERE. I MEAN, LET'S BE HONEST ABOUT IT. AND ANY BUREAUCRAT WOULD, TOO. BUREAUCRATS, I THINK, CAN COMMUNICATE, AND I THINK THEY SHOULD, YOU KNOW THROUGH -- >> I LIKE THE WAY YOU SAID THAT. I'M GOING TO STOP YOU THERE BECAUSE I LOVE WHAT YOU JUST SAID THERE. THERE IS A NATURAL TENSION OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK FREELY. DAN DOES, WHEN HE WAS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, AS WELL. AND JAMIE, IF HE'S LOOKING FOR AN OFFICE. >> I DON'T THINK -- >> WE'LL GET TO THAT. HOW MUCH OF THE PUBLIC'S RIGHT TO KNOW -- >> IT DOESN'T EXIST. >> IT DOESN'T EXIST? REALLY? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, IT DOESN'T EXIST? >> THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW EVERYTHING, BUT AS A POLITICIAN, I THINK YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF. AND YOU WILL SPEAK PUBLICLY ABOUT ISSUES, BUT YOU NEVER SPEAK WHAT'S IN YOUR HEART SIMPLY BECAUSE EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAY WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU AT THE NEXT CAMPAIGN. I MEAN, YOU KNOW THAT >> SURE. >> SO I THINK WHAT THEY HAVE REALLY DONE IS, I THINK THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE. I'M KIND OF FEELING FOR SECRETARY SKANDERA, BECAUSE I THOUGHT SHE HAD A CHANCE OF GETTING CONFIRMED EARLY ON. I THINK RIGHT NOW, IT'S

GOING TO BE REAL DIFFICULT, BECAUSE I THINK SHE NEEDS DEMOCRATS TO GET HER CONFIRMED BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN THE MINORITY, AND I JUST THINK THAT PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE FENCE, OR LEANING TOWARDS CONFIRMING HER, ARE NOW SAYING, WOW, NOW THERE'S AN ISSUE THAT WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT. AND SHE REALLY HAS NOT SAID ANYTHING PUBLICLY. I THINK THE GOVERNOR, I THINK, HAS SAID VERY LITTLE. SHE HAS A NEW POLICY. BUT HOW ARE THEY COMMUNICATING TODAY? >> AH. MR. FOLEY, HERE'S MY QUESTION. THANK YOU FOR THAT, BY THE WAY. >> WHY DID I SAY NO? >> NO, YOU DID NOT. YOU CAN'T SAY NO. THAT'S WHY YOU'RE HERE. WHY SHOULDN'T ELECTED LEGISLATORS FOLLOW THE SAME RULES AS MS. MARTINEZ, AS THE GOVERNOR HAS TO? >> WELL, WHEN I SAID NO AND INTERRUPTED WHAT YOU AND THE BIG QUESTION ABOUT EMAIL IS, I THINK EMAIL HAS BECOME THE NEW TELEPHONE. YOU READ EMAILS FROM MOST PEOPLE, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW WE'RE GOING TO DO THE DIFFERENTIATION, HOW WE'RE GOING TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THEM. AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO COURT TO HAVE TO BE FIGURED OUT.

I DON'T THINK THE LEGISLATURE CAN FIX IT. IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE COURTS SAYING, THIS IS WHAT WE THINK THE LAW SAYS, AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD. BUT MY PROBLEM IS THIS. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU GUYS GET EMAILS, AND YOU READ THEM AND YOU KNOW THAT WHATEVER THAT PERSON JUST WROTE, THEY WERE JUST THINKING. IT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING. AND WE USED TO HAVE -- BEFORE EMAILS, YOU WROTE LETTERS. AND IF YOU DIDN'T WRITE LETTERS, WHAT DID YOU DO? IF I DIDN'T WANT TO WRITE A LETTER TO SOPHIE, I PICKED THE PHONE UP AND I CALLED SOPHIE, AND SOPHIE AND I TALKED. NOW, THERE MIGHT BE A LOG THAT SAYS, DAN FOLEY CALLED SOPHIE, BUT ONE OF US HAD TO COME TELL YOU WHAT WE WERE TALKED ABOUT. EMAILS AND TEXT MESSAGES HAVE REPLACED PHONE CALLS. THEY'VE REPLACED PHONE CALLS. PEOPLE NO LONGER PICK THE PHONE UP. THEY SHOOT -- RICHARD, ARE YOU GOING TO BE ON THE SHOW THIS WEEK? A COUPLE OF COOL TOPICS. WHAT WE USED TO HAVE IS A PHONE CONVERSATION. SO I THINK THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE SOME CLARITY. I DON'T THINK PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO THOSE EMAILS. AND I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER AS TO WHAT THEY DO HAVE. OBVIOUSLY IF I'M THE GOVERNOR AND I'M SENDING POLICY DECISIONS WITH LENGTHY ATTACHMENTS AND ALL OF THIS STUFF, THAT'S DIFFERENT TO ME THAN SAYING, HEY, JAMIE, MY CHIEF ADVISER, I'M THINKING THIS,

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? SHOOT ME BACK YOUR THOUGHTS VIA EMAIL. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT, IS WHAT EXACTLY IS EMAIL THAT SHOULD BE GOVERNMENT WORK, AND WHAT IS CONFIDENTIAL CONVERSATIONS, THOUGHTS BETWEEN PEOPLE THAT NORMALLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A PHONE CALL. >> SOPHIE, ON THAT POINT RIGHT THERE, I THINK YOU BROUGHT THIS UP A FEW WEEKS AGO WHEN WE FIRST TALKED ABOUT THIS, THE IDEA OF THE PRELIMINARY CONVERSATION AND WHAT BECOMES OFFICIAL STATE BUSINESS, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT THESE GUYS ARE SAYING, JUST MUSINGS. YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THINGS, YOU'RE WORKING IT OUT, YOU'RE JUST SORT OF -- IT'S THE TUG OF WAR OF POLITICS. SHOULDN'T IT BE FAIR TO FOLKS, THAT THEY HAVE A LITTLE SPACE TO DO THIS? >> I THINK THAT THEY CERTAINLY DO DESERVE, AND I THINK NEED THE SPACE TO HAVE THOSE SORTS OF CONVERSATIONS, TO FLOAT IDEAS, ETC. HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, AT THIS POINT, IF YOU WORK FOR A COMPANY, YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU'RE USING COMPANY EMAIL, THAT IT IS SUBJECT TO REVIEW BY YOUR EMPLOYER. THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. THE STATE HAS DEFINED COMPANY COMMUNICATIONS, STATE COMMUNICATIONS, AS

THOSE INVOLVING THE STATE'S BUSINESS. IT HAS NOT SAID, ONLY USING THE STATE'S TECHNOLOGY, ONLY USING THE STATE'S RESOURCE. IT HAS DEFINED IT BROADLY, AND I THINK THE BROADNESS OF THAT DEFINITION, WHEN YOU CREATE SOMETHING THAT MEMORIALIZES, THAT -- YOU KNOW, AS OPPOSED TO A TELEPHONE CALL, UNLESS YOU'RE LIKE, I'M TAPING THIS CALL, IN WHICH CASE YOU'VE MADE A RECORD, YOU ACTUALLY KNOW YOU'RE MAKING A RECORD WHEN YOU SEND AN EMAIL. AND MANY PEOPLE SEND EMAILS FOR THAT PURPOSE. WE HAD A PHONE CALL, AND I'M GOING TO SEND YOU AN EMAIL TO CONFIRM WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT. TO TURN AROUND AND SAY, WE'RE GOING TO PRETEND THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY THAT AT LEAST IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR -- PARDON ME, THE PRIVATE SECTOR WE'VE ALREADY AGREED IS WORK PRODUCT, BELONGS TO THE EMPLOYER, TO SAY THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS DIFFERENT, WELL, WE REALLY NEED MORE TRANSPARENCY FROM OUR GOVERNMENT, MORE OPENNESS. HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS THAT ALLOW YOU TO GET THE

WORK DONE, WRITE DOWN THE STUFF THAT YOU WANT THERE FOR POSTERITY. DON'T RUN AROUND SAYING, WE'RE, BEING TRANSPARENT, WE'RE BEING TRANSPARENT, PLEASE DON'T LOOK AT MY YAHOO ACCOUNT. BY THE WAY, BIG RELEASE: BIG HACKING OF YAHOO. PASSWORDS CAME OUT AGAIN. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> NOT ONLY DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR EMPLOYER IS NOT LOOKING AT YOUR EMAIL, DON'T ASSUME THAT THE WORLD ISN'T LOOKING AT YOUR EMAIL. >> EXCELLENT REMINDER. I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. JAMIE, STAFF SOMETIMES HAS COMMUNICATIONS WITH THEIR BOSSES BLOWING OFF STEAM, THINGS GET SAID. >> YEAH. >> WE'VE ALL DONE IT. >> RIGHT. >> DO YOU AGREE WITH SOPHIE, THAT IT SHOULD BE ALL OUT THERE, OR I ASK, AGAIN, IS THERE A BRIGHT WHITE LINE HERE IN YOUR >> I'M MORE WITH DAN ON THIS ISSUE. I LOOK AT MY EXPERIENCE AS A FORMER FEDERAL OFFICIAL, AND SOMEONE COULD GO OUT THERE AND FIND FOUR YEARS OF EMAILS THAT I HAD AT THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT, IF IT STILL EXISTS ON SOME SERVER OUT THERE SOMEWHERE. BUT I RECALL THAT -- AND I'M

NOT AN EXPERT ON THIS, BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY HAD A CUSTODIAN THAT WAS IN CHARGE OF THIS PROCESS. BUT I RECALL THAT WHEN SOMEBODY DID A FOIA ON A TOPIC THAT THEY WERE RESEARCHING, THERE WERE THINGS THAT WERE REDACTED SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THERE WERE DELIBERATIVE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON. AND IT WASN'T THE FINAL WORD. IT WASN'T THE -- THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN ME AND MY STAFF ABOUT, HEY, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS POLICY ON THIS, OR WHERE ARE WE HEADED WITH THIS, SOME RANDOM ISSUE, IT WASN'T GOING TO BE PASSED ALONG, NECESSARILY, BECAUSE IT WAS OUT OF CONTEXT. >> I WAS GOING TO SAY, AS THE COURTS, AS THE LEGAL COMMUNITY LOOKS AT A PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT IS PUT FORWARD, AND TRIES TO FIGURE OUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, WHAT WAS THIS ABOUT, WHAT DID THEY INTEND, THAT KIND OF INFORMATION CAN BE EXTRAORDINARILY HELPFUL. THAT KIND OF, OKAY, YOU KNOW -- SORT OF LIKE THE FEDERALIST PAPERS, YOU KNOW. IT COULD HAVE GONE THIS WAY, THEY TALKED ABOUT GOING THAT WAY, BUT THEY DECIDED TO GO THIS WAY. THAT CAN HELP US TO FIGURE OUT WHAT OUR LAWYERS ARE. >> LOOK AT WHAT GARY JOHNSON SAID. GARY JOHNSON SAID, I DIDN'T USE IT AT ALL BECAUSE I WANTED TO HAVE CANDID

CONVERSATIONS. >> WE WERE INVISIBLE FOR GARY. I REMEMBER WHEN I GOT TO THE LEGISLATURE, WHEN GARY WAS THERE, NOT EVERYBODY HAD AN EMAIL ACCOUNTS. >> AND THAT'S TO THIS DAY. >> BUT I WOULD SAY ALMOST EVERYBODY HAS ONE TODAY. AND THEN, EVERYBODY PRETTY MUCH HAD THE SAME EMAIL ACCOUNT. EVERYBODY HAD THE STATE LEGISLATIVE EMAIL ACCOUNT, IF YOU HAD ONE. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T HAVE FIVE DIFFERENT EMAIL ACCOUNTS LIKE YOU HAVE TODAY. SO I THINK IT'S VERY TOUCHY. IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE -- THIS IS GOING TO GO TO THE COURTS. THE COURTS ARE GOING TO MAKE THE DECISION. AND IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT THEIR DECISION IS, BECAUSE IF THEY MAKE THE WRONG DECISION, WHAT PREVENTS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FROM SAYING, WE WANT ALL THE EMAILS FROM THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES ABOUT THINGS THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT. ARE THEY GOING TO EXEMPT THEMSELVES, AS LEGISLATORS CAN? IT'S A DEATH SPIRAL IF YOU DON'T DO THIS CORRECTLY. >> I'M GLAD YOU GOT THAT IN. IN A MOMENT, THE SANTA FE INTERNATIONAL FOLK ART MARKET. >> THE FLAG, ITSELF, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS STUFF. IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO USE THE FLAG FOR BAD THINGS. WHEN THE KLU KLUX KLAN WALKS IN A RALLY WITH THIS FLAG, THAT'S BAD. WHEN SOME GUY FLIES IT AT A FOOTBALL GAME AT THE UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA, THAT DON'T MAKE HIM A RACIST.

>> JUST A FEW SECONDS LEFT. TEN SECONDS FOR YOU, SIR. >> IT'S JUST PRETTY INSENSITIVE. IT AGAIN PROVES THAT THE TEA PARTY FOLKS ARE GETTING TO BE LIKE BOZOS AS THEY MATURE MORE AND MORE. >> YOU'RE ON A ROLL >> THE SUMMER FESTIVAL SEASON HAS BEGUN IN EARNEST. MARKETS BOTH AGRICULTURAL AND ARTISTIC IN NATURE SEEM TO BE ON THE TO-DO LIST NEARLY EVERY WEEKEND. NOW, THEY'RE "EVENTS" TO BE SURE, BUT THEY ALSO PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE ECONOMY - LOCAL AND GLOBAL. NMIF PRODUCER MATT GRUBS SPENT A DAY THIS WEEK LOOKING AT THE IMPACT OF THE SANTA FE INTERNATIONAL FOLK ART MARKET. >> IN THE OLD DAYS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS TRADITIONAL TO GIVE THEM AS A MARRIAGE BASKET, A PRESENT. THIS IS A TYPICAL TONGA BASKET FROM THE SOUTHERN PROVIDENCE OF ZAMBIA. >> WHAT'S IT LIKE TO THINK OF SOMETHING THAT IS A PART OF YOUR CULTURE, SOMETHING

THAT YOU USE EVERY DAY, LIKE A BASKET FOR WINNOWING, AS A >> I THINK IT TAKES A LITTLE BIT OF LIKE EXPOSURE, BECAUSE YOU THINK OF IT AS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT -- IN TERMS OF PRICE, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE. IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT YOU USE EVERY DAY, AND YOU CAN GET UP AND MAKE ANOTHER ONE. JOB CREATION. JOB CREATION HAS BECOME ALMOST A POLITICIZED TERM. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A NEW PARADIGM FOR JOB CREATION, AND IT'S PEOPLE LIKE THIS IN THESE COUNTRIES. GIVING THEM A TINY BIT OF OPPORTUNITY, AND THEY GO A LONG WAY WITH IT. >> COMING TO THE FOLK ART MARKET, ESPECIALLY FOR THE ARTISTS THAT I WORK WITH, THEY HAVE SEEN THAT THEIR ART IS ACTUALLY MORE VALUABLE THAN A PIECE OF THING THAT THEY USE EVERY DAY IN THE KITCHEN, OR TO CARRY SOMETHING. AND THEY PUT MORE VALUE TO THEIR WORK BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY OUT OF IT AND HAVE IT BECOME A BUSINESS. >> SO 500 PEOPLE ARE BEING

FED BY THESE EARRINGS AND THIS JEWELRY. IT'S A GREAT PART OF THE STORY. 90% OF THE MONEY THAT'S EARNED AT THE MARKET GOES HOME WITH THE ARTIST. INCOME MEAN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING THESE BASKETS AT HOME? >> IN ONE WORD: JOY. JOY BECAUSE IT MEANS MORE WORK IN THE COMMUNITY, WHICH MEANS MORE INCOME IN THE COMMUNITY. AND IN THE PAST, THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO BUY GOATS, THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO BUY CATTLE, THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO BUY A PLOW, WHICH IN THE PAST THEY HAD TO HIRE FROM SOMEBODY ELSE, BUT NOW THEY ARE ABLE TO HIRE OUT THEIR PLOW. SO IT MEANS THEY CAN BUY ANOTHER PLOW, OR TWO, AND GET MORE INCOME FROM THAT. AND THEY'RE ABLE TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO SCHOOL. AND JUST GENERALLY MEANS MORE ECONOMIC POWER TO THE WOMEN. >> I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GIVE SOMEONE JUST A LITTLE BIT OF A CHANCE IN MANY PLACES, THEY WILL REALLY SEEK TO FIND THAT OPPORTUNITY. AND THAT'S WHAT WE THINK. THE MARKET, ITSELF, IS I THINK MOST PEOPLE, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY SEE, REGARD

THE FOLK ART MARKET AS AN EVENT. WE'RE ALWAYS THE SECOND WEEKEND IN JULY. AND HERE WE ARE, WE LOVE THE EVENT. IT'S A LOT OF FUN. BUT IT'S A LITTLE DEEPER THAN THAT, BECAUSE BEFORE WE TURN THE ARTISTS LOOSE, IF YOU WILL, IN THE MARKET, WE GIVE THE NEW ONES, AT LEAST, A WHOLE DAY OF TRAINING. WE TEACH THEM ABOUT PRICING FOR THE GLOBAL MARKET. >> HOW TO TALK TO THE AMERICAN CONSUMER, HOW TO HANDLE DIFFICULT CUSTOMERS. >> WE TEACH THEM ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE EXPECTATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN MAYBE WHAT THEY EXPERIENCE BACK HOME. >> HOW TO MARKET YOUR PRODUCTS. HOW TO DISPLAY YOUR PRODUCTS. WHAT IS A GOOD PRICE POINT IN THE AMERICAN MARKET. BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO OVERPRICE YOUR PRODUCT SO THAT YOU CAN'T SELL IT, BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HAVE VERY HIGH EXPECTATIONS OF THE KIND OF PRICE THEY CAN GET IN THE AMERICAN MARKET.

BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF FACTORS TO CONSIDER. >> COINCIDENTAL WITH THAT IS ADVANCED TRAINING FOR ARTIST WHO HAVE BEEN TO THE MARKET BEFORE, AND WHO SHOW AN INTEREST AND PROMISE IN LEARNING MORE. WE'RE PARTNERING WITH THE DALLAS MARKET CENTER. SO 19 ARTISTS AND ARTIST GROUPS WHO SORT OF HAD THE CAPACITIES, THEY WERE READY TO MAYBE TACKLE WHOLESALE, WENT THERE AND WERE VERY SUCCESSFUL. AND THEN ANOTHER WHOLE GROUP OF MORE ADVANCED ARTISTS ARE, THE THURSDAY BEFORE MARKET, BEING TRAINED AND THINKING ABOUT THE WHOLESALE MARKET. WELL, WHAT DOES IT TAKE? YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT FOR EVERYBODY; RIGHT? >> WHEN YOU WENT TO DALLAS, DID YOU FIND THAT IT'S A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE MARKETING BASKETS ON A LARGER SCALE TO PEOPLE? >> WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR IN DALLAS IS A CUSTOMER WHO WANTS TO BUY IN QUANTITY, AND YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIP. YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP WHERE SOMEBODY CAN EMAIL YOU, OR PICK UP THE PHONE AND SAY, LOOK, I NEED 100, 200 PIECES OF XYZ.

>> YOU HAVE TO HAVE ENOUGH CAPACITY TO FILL ORDERS. YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOPHISTICATION TO KNOW HOW TO SHIP ABROAD AND THAT SORT OF THING. >> THEY WILL HELP YOU IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT YOUR GOODS ARRIVE SAFELY, THAT YOU'VE DONE YOUR PAPERWORK PROPERLY, THAT YOU'VE BOXED YOUR PRODUCTS PROPERLY. ALL THAT WAS AN EDUCATION FOR ME. AND I CAN HONESTLY SAY THAT WHAT WOULD HAVE MOST LIKELY TAKEN ME A COUPLE OF MONTHS TO LEARN ABOUT EXPORTING PRODUCTS TO AMERICA, I LEARNED FROM A PACKAGE FROM >> THE STORIES BEHIND ALL OF THIS ART HAVE TO BE AMAZING.

TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF IT. >> OH, SURE. WELL, THEY'RE VERY VARIED. THIS BASKET IS FROM RWANDA. WHO ARE A PART OF A COOPERATIVE. AND ACTUALLY, IT'S A VERY TRADITIONAL FORM, BUT IT REALLY TOOK ROOT AFTER THE TERRIBLE 1994 GENOCIDES. A WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN AT THE MARKET MANY TIMES WAS RUNNING A HOTEL, AND WOMEN WOULD COME WITH A BASKET IN THEIR HANDS AND SAY, PLEASE, I NEED FOOD FOR MY FAMILY, CAN'T YOU BUY MY BASKET. AND SHE BEGAN TO REALIZE, IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS MAINLY JUST WIDOWS AND ORPHANS AT THAT POINT, THAT PERHAPS THEY COULD MAKE A LIVING THROUGH THIS. SO SHE STARTED THIS COOPERATIVE, AND NOW IT'S REALLY SUCCESSFUL. IT'S A MAJOR EXPORTER OUT OF RWANDA. THIS SCARF IS FROM MADAGASCAR, AND THIS COMES FROM A VERY TRADITIONAL RAW SILK TRADITION OF SHROUDS, ACTUALLY, THAT ARE STILL USED TO BURY THE DEAD IN THE HIGHLANDS OF MADAGASCAR. WELL, THROUGH THE INFLUENCE

OF A PEACE CORP. WORKER WHO HAD BEEN SENT THERE AS AN ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT SPECIALIST, SHE RECOGNIZED THE BEAUTY OF THESE SCARFS AND SAID TO THE WOMEN, WHY DON'T YOU APPLY TO THE FOLK ART MARKET. SO, THEY DID, AND THEY CAME LAST YEAR AND THEY DID LIKE $32,000 IN A WEEKEND. AND THEY HAVE USED THE MONEY SO WELL. THEY HAD ALL OF THESE COLLECTIVE DREAMS. FOR EXAMPLE, TREKKERS COME TO THEIR VILLAGE. THEY ARE ABOUT THE ONLY TOURISTS THEY GET THERE. SO THEY THOUGHT, WELL, IF ONLY WE COULD OFFER A SHOWER AND A LITTLE RESTAURANT AND, YOU KNOW, LITTLE SHACKS. SO THEY BUILT THOSE WITH THE MONEY THAT THEY EARNED FROM THE FOLK ART MARKET LAST YEAR. >> SO THIS LEADS TO THAT. >> EXACTLY. AND NOW THEY'RE COMING BACK AGAIN. THIS COMES FROM KURDISTAN. WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT CENTRAL ASIA. BUT IN COUNTRIES THAT WERE FORMERLY PART OF THE SOVIET BLOCK, WE SEE AMAZING COMMITMENTS TO ENTREPRENEURSHIP. THEY ARE SO READY AND EAGER TO DO BUSINESS. AND SO IN KURDISTAN, THE TRADITIONAL CLOTHING,

BECAUSE IT'S A COLD PLACE, WAS MADE OUT OF THIS THICK FELTED MATERIAL, VERY STIFF. AND IT'S NOT REALLY SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE IN THIS DAY AND AGE WOULD WANT TO WEAR. IT'S KIND OF ITCHY AND STIFF. SO THEY STARTED -- THESE SEVEN SISTERS BEGAN THIS TRADITION OF USING THE SAME FELTING TECHNIQUE AND DOING IT ON HAND LOOM SILK. AND I TELL YOU, THIS BOOTH THAT HAD THESE SCARVES LAST YEAR WAS PRACTICALLY LIKE FILENE'S BASEMENT. YOU COULD SEE SCARVES FLYING UP IN THE AIR. >> SURE, SURE. >> AND THEY'RE VERY WELL PRICED. SO THEY WERE IN DALLAS, AND THEY GOT A BUNCH OF ORDERS. >> WHAT WOULD THESE BE USED FOR, TRADITIONALLY? >> WELL, THESE WOULD BE USED FOR WINNOWING. AFTER THEY HARVESTED AND THEY REMOVED THE CORN FROM THE HUSKS, THEN THEY WOULD WANT TO SIFT IT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CORN IS CLEAR, AND THEN IT WOULD BE USED FOR TRANSPORTING, YOU KNOW, LIKE MAIZE FROM THE FIELD. >> DOES IT TAKE SOME TIME

FOR THEM TO GET USED TO THE IDEA THAT THEY CAN BE BOTH, THEY CAN BE A MEANS OF INCOME AND SUPPORT, AND ALSO A TOOL? >> DEFINITELY IT TAKES TIME. WHEN I STARTED WORKING OUT WITH THEM, WHEN I STARTED WORKING WITH THEM, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SEASONS -- THEY'RE PRIMARILY PEASANTS, WHAT WE CALL PEASANT FARMERS, AND THERE ARE SEASONS WHEN THEY'RE PLOWING, AND THEY'RE PREPARING THEIR FIELDS. AND THEY WOULD MUCH RATHER DO THAT THAN TRY AND FULFILL AN ORDER, BECAUSE FOR THEM IT'S LIKE, IF I DON'T PLOW NOW, I WON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO EAT. BUT THEN I TRY TO EDUCATE THEM THAT, LOOK, IF YOU TAKE TIME TO MAKE THESE BASKETS, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A LITTLE EXTRA MONEY IN YOUR POCKETS THAT YOU COULD GET SOMEBODY TO HELP YOU PLOW YOUR FIELD WHILE YOU'RE BUSY WITH YOUR BASKETS. AND I THINK THEY'VE COME TO A POINT WHERE THEY REALIZE THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY BALANCE THE TWO.

>> THIS IS REALLY OPENING UP OBVIOUSLY US TO ALL THESE DIFFERENT CULTURES, BUT THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, THE ENTREPRENEURIAL SIDE OF IT, IT SEEMS LIKE A GREAT PLACE TO HANG YOUR HAT. >> IT IS. AND THEN THERE'S ONE OTHER ASPECT I THINK WE SHOULDN'T MISS, BECAUSE WE'RE A GRASS ROOTS -- YOU KNOW, WE WERE BORN IN SANTA FE, AND WE HAVE 1600 VOLUNTEERS, AND SANTA FE OPENS ITS HEART TO THESE ARTISTS. SO THERE'S KIND OF A PERSON TO PERSON DIPLOMACY ASPECT HERE. PEOPLE REALLY DO DEVELOP FRIENDSHIPS, NOT ONLY ARTIST TO ARTIST, BUT VISITOR TO ARTIST. AND SOMETIMES THEY ACTUALLY GO AND VISIT AND HELP THE ARTIST, OR THEY MAKE DONATIONS DIRECTLY TO THEM FOR CERTAIN THINGS. BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ALL BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THAT. AND THE MARKET IS REALLY ABOUT THAT, TOO. >> THE MARKET RUNS THIS WEEKEND ON SATURDAY AND SUNDAY. IT'S ON MUSEUM HILL UP THERE IN SANTA FE. THERE'S MORE INFORMATION ON OUR WEBSITE - NewMexicoInFocus.org. >> WE'RE "ON THE CLOCK" NOW WITH TWO WEEKS' WORTH OF HEADLINES TO GET AFTER. LET'S GET GOING.

DOWN SOUTH, THE LAS CRUCES TEA PARTY'S 4TH OF JULY FLOAT FLEW A NUMBER OF FLAGS, INCLUDING THE CONFEDERATE ONE. NOW, THE FLOAT WON AN AWARD, AND THE AWARD WAS RESCINDED AFTER THE WHOLE THING BLEW UP. THE MAYOR OF LAS CRUCES ACTUALLY APOLOGIZED, BUT THE TEA PARTY SAYS IT'S PART OF NEW MEXICO'S HISTORY. NOW, KEEP IN MIND, MEXICAN AND SPANISH FLAGS WERE NOT ON THE FLOAT, JAMIE, AND CAN THE TEA PARTY STICK WITH THIS, OR SHOULD THEY APOLOGIZE? WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN HERE? >> WELL, THE FIRST THING IS, I'VE TALKED TO SEVERAL OF THE TEA PARTY MEMBERS DOWN THERE. BEING FROM LAS CRUCES, I KNOW SOME OF THEM. AND I CAN TELL YOU THIS. I'VE BEEN TO THEIR MEETINGS, THEY'RE NOT RACIST. THERE'S NO ILL INTENT BY PUTTING THE CONFEDERATE FLAG ON THE FLOAT. BUT FLOATS ARE AN EXPRESSION OF ART. I MEAN, WE WOULD AGREE THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO EXPRESS SOMETHING IN A CREATIVE WAY. BY PUTTING THE FLAG THERE OUT OF CONTEXT, AND NOT PUTTING IT SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE SPANISH FLAG, OR THE MEXICAN FLAG -- THERE WERE REASONS THEY SAY WHY THOSE FLAGS WERE NOT PUT ON THE FLOAT. THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT MORE THOUGHT TOWARDS THAT. >> THIS IS MUCH ADO ABOUT

NOTHING. I MEAN, THIS SAME FLAG FLIES OVER SIX FLAGS AT TEXAS. THE SAME FLAG FLIES OVER ALL THE SIX FLAGS PLACES. THE FLAG ITSELF -- >> BUT THEY HAVE SIX FLAGS THERE. >> IT DOESN'T MATTER. IT'S FLYING TODAY. THE FLAG, ITSELF, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS STUFF. IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO USE THE FLAG FOR BAD THINGS. WHEN THE KLU KLUX KLAN WALKS IN A RALLY WITH THIS FLAG, THAT'S BAD. WHEN SOME GUY FLIES IT AT A FOOTBALL GAME AT THE UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA, THAT DON'T MAKE HIM A RACIST. >> JUST A FEW SECONDS LEFT. TEN SECONDS FOR YOU, SIR. >> IT'S JUST PRETTY INSENSITIVE. IT AGAIN PROVES THAT THE TEA PARTY FOLKS ARE GETTING TO BE LIKE BOZOS AS THEY MATURE MORE AND MORE. >> YOU'RE ON A ROLL TONIGHT. >> I'M ABSOLUTELY DOWN ON THE TEA PARTY ON THIS. I DO THINK THEY NEED TO APOLOGIZE. I THINK THEY NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT RIGHT AWAY, AND RECOGNIZE THAT THEY MADE A BIG MISTAKE. I'M ALSO GOING TO SAY TO LAS CRUCES, LISTEN, BEST FLOAT NEXT YEAR, 4-H, GIRL SCOUTS, SOMEBODY LIKE THAT. WHY WOULD YOU GIVE BEST FLOAT TO A POLITICAL GROUP? >> THAT WAS A TOUGH ONE RIGHT THERE. NOW, THE ALBUQUERQUE CONVENTION CENTER IS SLATED

TO RECEIVE AN EXTREME MAKEOVER. THIS $20 MILLION FACELIFT, WITH FUNDS FROM THE CITY'S REFINANCED CONVENTION CENTER BONDS, IS EXPECTED TO SIGNIFICANTLY BOOST BOOKINGS. RICHARD, EVERYONE SAYS BOOKINGS WILL INCREASE, BUT I WILL SAY, ON THE ARTIST RENDERING GUYS, COMPARED TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW FOR THE CONVENTION CENTER, THAT MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN THE LOUVRE. RIGHT? THAT MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN THE ENTRANCE TO THE LOUVRE. IT LOOKS SPECTACULAR. BUT IS THIS THE TRICK WE NEED TO GET -- IS IT JUST A FACELIFT THAT'S GOING TO GET MORE BOOKINGS? >> YOU KNOW, I'M GLAD THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT FIXING IT UP. I'M STILL CONCERNED ABOUT THE DEBT SERVICE. IT WAS LIKE AROUND $70 MILLION WHEN I WAS RUNNING A FEW YEARS AGO, AND I'M STILL CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE GOOD. ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO GET MORE TOURISTS HERE, I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT. >> GOOD IDEA, DAN? >> YOU KNOW, CLEARLY IF YOU'VE BEEN IN THERE, IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED. IT'S ATTRACTING SOME NICE THINGS. THESE TRACK MEETS, THE NATIONALS AND STUFF LIKE THAT, BIG DEALS. I THINK IT'LL HELP MORE PEOPLE WANT TO COME. I THINK IF YOU HAVE A CHOICE BETWEEN THAT BUILDING AND

ONE IN SAN DIEGO, YOU'RE GOING TO CHOOSE THAT. I PERSONALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE US RETIRE SOME MORE OF THAT DEBT BEFORE WE START SPENDING MORE OF THAT MONEY. WE'VE GOT SOME BIG PROBLEMS. >> THE MAYOR SAYS HE CAN PAY FOR IT. >> HE CAN, BECAUSE HE HAS THE SAVINGS. >> BUT THE MARKET FOR CONVENTIONS IS LOW, AND IT'S BEEN LOW FOR THE ENTIRE DECADE. >> YOU'RE COMPETING WITH SAN DIEGO AND SAN ANTONIO. >> IF WE REALLY WANTED TO COMPETE, WE SHOULD HAVE CHOSEN TO COMPETE ON THIS 20 YEARS AGO. AND SO NOW I KIND OF THINK THAT YOU'RE THROWING MONEY AT THIS THING, AND IT SHOULD PROBABLY BE USED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. >> I'VE GOT TO HOLD YOU THERE, SOPH. NEW MEXICO SCHOOLS RECEIVED THEIR FIRST OFFICIAL "A" THROUGH "F" GRADES. THEY WEREN'T GREAT, BUT THEY DO SHOW MORE IMPROVEMENT OVER THE FORMER A.Y.P, OR ADEQUATE YEARLY PROGRESS, RATINGS. STILL, THERE WERE MORE "C"S THAN ANY OTHER GRADE, AND A FAIR SHARE OF "F"S. RICHARD, I'LL START WITH YOU, AGAIN. I GUESS THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION HERE IS, ARE WE LEARNING ANYTHING WITH THIS LETTER GRADE SYSTEM? DO WE KNOW MORE ABOUT OUR SCHOOLS USING THIS SYSTEM? >> I THINK IT'S BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAD WITH "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND." THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE THAT WAS CONFUSING. BUT THIS IS STILL CONFUSING. I MEAN, PEOPLE STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY'RE AN "A" NOW, OR A "C" TODAY. >> OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND. >> IT'S JUST STILL

CONFUSING. I THINK IT REALLY POINTS BACK TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION. THEY REALLY NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING HOW YOU GET TO AN "A." I MEAN, A TEACHER'S REQUIRED TO DO THAT WHEN THEY'RE GIVING OUT GRADES, WHEN THEY TALK TO THEIR STUDENTS. THEY SHOULD DO THE SAME. >> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? >> I'M NOT SURPRISED, BY THE WAY, TO HEAR THAT THEY HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF "C"S. "C" IS AVERAGE. I THINK WE SORT OF FORGET THAT. >> EXCELLENT POINT. >> WE CAN'T BE LIKE LAKE WOBEGON WHERE EVERY SCHOOL IS ABOVE AVERAGE. >> YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE SOMEBODY AVERAGE, RIGHT. >> SO I MEAN, I THINK THAT TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE ABLE TO TRACK THIS OVER TIME, WITH CONSISTENCY OVER TIME, THIS COULD BECOME A USEFUL TOOL. THIS YEAR, IT'S NOT THE TOOL THAT WE NEED. >> INTERESTING. NEXT SUBJECT, AND I'VE GOT TO HOLD YOU THERE, JAMIE. NEW MEXICO'S SENATOR TOM UDALL SAYS IT'S TIME TO PUT THE SPORT OF HORSE RACING BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK. I LOVE THAT LITTLE PUN THERE. AT A SENATE COMMITTEE HEARING THIS WEEK, A MEETING ON THURSDAY, YESTERDAY, ON MEDICATION AND PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS IN RACING, UDALL SAID FEDERAL REGULATIONS NEED TO BE PUT INTO PLACE TO END ABUSE IN THE SPORT, AND SAVE HORSES, JOCKEYS, AND JOBS. DANIEL, YOU'RE LAUGHING, BUT

HAS THIS GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE THE FEDS JUST HAVE TO STEP IN HERE? >> I'M LAUGHING BECAUSE I LOVE IT WHEN A U.S. SENATOR, OR THE PRESIDENT, REGARDLESS OF PARTY, THERE'S A PROBLEM AND THE FEDS WILL FIX IT. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE THAT THE ANSWER IS THE FEDS FIXING IT. >> BUT THE INDUSTRY DOESN'T SEEM TO WANT TO FIX IT. >> YOU'VE GOT TO FIGURE SOMETHING OUT HERE. THERE'S CLEARLY A PROBLEM. CLEARLY A PROBLEM. BUT, I MEAN, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS ON THE SHOW AD NAUSEAM. THE MINUTE THEY PASS ONE THING, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A SECOND DRUG. THEY'LL FIGURE OUT A WAY AROUND IT. IT'S CLEARLY A PROBLEM IN THE INDUSTRY. SOMEBODY HAS TO DO SOMETHING. I THINK IT'S GOOD THAT THE STATE IS STARTING TO MAKE A STAND. >> THIS SEEMS TO BE A BEAUTIFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR MR. UDALL, A WESTERN LEGACY; HORSES. IT WORKS FOR HIM. >> THE QUESTION I ALWAYS ASK WHEN YOU START FIXING THINGS LIKE THIS IS, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES GOING TO BE WHEN YOU BUST SOMEBODY? IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE LIQUOR INDUSTRY AND LIQUOR LICENSES. YOU ABUSE YOUR LIQUOR LICENSE, YOU SELL TO KIDS UNDERAGE, AND WHAT HAPPENS? ONE CHANCE AFTER ANOTHER AFTER ANOTHER.

>> SAME WITH DWI. >> LET ME GET JAMIE IN HERE. >> I AGREE WITH THESE FOLKS. I THINK THE IDEA THAT -- WELL, I APPLAUD SENATOR UDALL FOR DOING SOMETHING ON ANYTHING. BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU KNOW, THERE NEEDS TO BE AT LEAST AN OPENING OF A CONVERSATION. I'M NOT SURE THAT FEDERAL REGULATIONS ARE GOING TO DO ANYTHING, THOUGH. >> CAN YOU DO IT IN FIVE SECONDS, SOPHIE? WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE CONSISTENCY ACROSS THE COUNTRY'S RACE TRACKS. THAT'S WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN. WHETHER IT'S THE INDUSTRY ITSELF THAT DOES IT, THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO STEP IN, JUST MAKES IT FAIR. >> THERE YOU GO. 24 HORSES A MONTH DIE IN THIS COUNTRY. IT'S RIDICULOUS. SO ANYWAY, THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THIS WEEK. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. >> THANKS FOR SPENDING AN HOUR WITH US THIS WEEK. NOW, IT MAY BE JULY, BUT THERE ARE LESS THAN FOUR MONTHS TO GO BEFORE THE NOVEMBER ELECTION, AND WE'RE PREPARING A FULL SLATE OF CANDIDATE INTERVIEWS AND DEBATES. FOLLOW ALL THE ACTION ONLINE THROUGH OUR FACEBOOK AND TWITTER ACCOUNTS. I'M GENE GRANT. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK -