¡Colores!; 1930, 2117; Ramón José López, Interview, Disc 1

So, I think I'll start with asking you, you know, you live with a lot of history around you, and you keep, you create the pictures that tell this history and everything too. So, why is history important to you? I think history is very important to me, because I want to remember my ancestors and the people that lived throughout the Southwest, and I think it's important because of the friendships that they developed, you know, different cultures, and how they intermarried each other with the Native Americans and the Spanish when they first came to the New World. So, a lot of things that I've seen that you've been painting aren't things that

you learn in school. Are there things that, like, what's the importance of bringing everything out? Even the terrible things, even the... When I was growing up here in San Fe, most of the schools do not provide all the history that occurred here in New Mexico or even here in San Fe. And I think it's very important, especially to talk about or to learn about the public revolt that happened in August 1680. I think it will be very educational for everyone, even historians, at least to present it and have discussions about it. Why do you think that it's important?

Because a lot of the books, I mean, there's not images that you can actually see if people don't really understand or can't imagine what actually happened 400 years ago here in San Fe. It wasn't always art pairs on the plaza. You know, there were native peoples that lived here in San Fe before the Spanish came. And the Spanish basically took over their properties, their houses, their food sources, water, everything. And so a lot of the Indians were enslaved. And, of course, the Spanish married a lot of the Indian women also. Why do you think keeping that history in our, you know, keeping it alive is important?

It's very important for many reasons because it's important to know who you came from and who your other relatives are. You don't want to marry your brother or sister, of course, but it's very important for your culture and everything else. Oh, getting a different shot here. One inspired you to start working as an artist? I've always been motivated to do artistic things, even as a child. I used to do murals at school when I was in third grade for the hallways. And somehow I always could envision something and make it. So that was great to be an artist, you know.

You realized at an early age that you kind of had that? Yes, but I realized in the fourth grade that I didn't really know how to do arithmetic and my reading skills were pretty bad. So in the fourth grade I decided to focus on my education. When did you start painting again? It was pretty late, maybe when I was 23 years old, but I was always drawing and doing things like that, making jewelry. So what inspired you to start making some of these? Well, one of my biggest inspirations was my grandfather. My grandfather was a Santero. A Santero is a woodcarver and he would carve religious imagery of saints. He also built a cappia, a small family chapel located in Santa Fe on Cedar Wardle Road.

And he was a folk artist also, but he would create caritas that he would sell to tourists. And he would also give tourists rides around the plaza. You know, for the piesta, he was a big hit during the piesta. You would have all the queens and all the piesta, you know, jumping on to the caritas. He was part of the traditions that were actually happening. He was right there. So he kept traditions alive, kind of? Oh, yes, yes. He also made a little carousel with little animals and he would give kids rides also during the piestas. So he was making money on the side. Did you tell you about it?

Actually, my grandfather died in 1949, two years before I was born. They say, I look just like him and I'm one of the few that have blue eyes like my grandfather. So, in looking at your work, there are beautiful colors. Can you tell us about what you're doing? The colors that you see in a lot of this, the santos, the retablos, and different works that I do are all done with natural pigments. Some come from plants, vegetable. But a lot of them are natural minerals that occur in different places in the earth. Some come from, the green comes from placitas. But there's different sources of natural minerals all over the world. Reds are like iron oxide. The yellows are yellow ochre.

The blue one is indigo, which is made from a plant. And it was exported for many years to Europe. And also Cochinilla, or Cochinilla, which is used as a food dye. But back then, it was also used to dye the clothing for the kings and queens. It was specifically just so the royal courts could have that. Nobody else could wear it. The British started, you know, the red outfits, the soldier's uniforms. But then new commercial dyes were discovered. And so that kind of pulled it away from the little insects. Cochinilla is just made from the little tiny insects. And their whole bodies are crushed and liquefied.

And it's a beautiful red color or purple color. Excuse me. You need a jacket? I'm fine. Excuse me. I'm so sorry. I'm glad I'm not. Cats and feathers, the only thing. It's me, it's me, it's me. So is there an important stride or kind of a spiritual thing that comes into making these pieces by using original techniques? Well, I think, for me, I'm, I get a kick out of using my grandfather's tools to create some of my artwork. It's just like channeling his artistic abilities through me, which is really nice.

My grandfather, his name was Lorenzo Volpheus Sr. My father was also named. He was a junior. So there's a lot of Volpheus's and Lorenzo's in our family, Lorenzo. So I think it's, you know, the tradition of working with your hands and passing it on to your children, your, your craft, you know, like my daughter is a woodcarver and one son is a painter and one's a jeweler and one does, you know, different things of all involved in art. And so is my wife, she's an artist also. I'm going to ask you kind of a repetitive question. Yeah, so why do you, why do you carry on traditional methods?

Why do you think you do? The main reason I, I try to continue in the traditional methods, use the traditional methods is because I see a different quality of the artwork. It has a whole different feel to it and, you know, the textures of the wood. It's not like a no lumber, you know, it's all smooth. This gives you, you know, when you look at it in different lighting, it shows the different facets of the actual wood process. And that fascinates me. And using the natural pigments on the paintings, it's just such a different feel. And I think it's just something that I like. So, there's a guy sticking his tongue out behind you. I know.

That's, that's one of my sons. It's like, that's what they normally do. They put their hands behind you. Right, yeah, that's the photo mom. You need to take a picture of me. It takes time. The skeleton's photobombing me. And one of my twin, that's my twin's hair on him. Oh, really? Oh, my gosh. They have really curly hair. Well, curly hair. Yeah. And that's the sister behind you. Those are her braids? What? No. No, I didn't cut out those braids. Those are horse hair. Well, don't necessarily. Yeah, no. My mom's hair was like that. But that little carita behind you, my daughter made that and she made the donkey. Oh, cool. And it's kind of like the ones my grandfather made, which is back there. Little toys for toys for toys. Hold me. Historically. Yeah, little wagon. Little wagon. What would your vision for your work in? My vision is today or when?

It changes every day. And some things I do. I just have fun, like the piece behind you, the Donia Salistiana. It's fun, but it's also very educational because the title for it is Donia Salistiana in the media. But on the back side of the sign, it says, don't drink and dry. Because it's also an educational one of what actually happens to people that are drinking sometimes the whole entire family is lost. And Donia Salistiana is a symbol of death. And so it has two means. Careful with your chair and your chair a lot of it. Stay focused. Yes. So a lot of the techniques and the stories even that you're telling, you know, I guess the stories aren't necessarily, well, a lot of them are very traditional.

A lot of them are old stories that you're bringing in to the whole thing. So how can you talk to us about the contemporary element? Like, how are you bringing this into the modern world? Well, I think I consider myself a contemporary artist working with traditional mediums. And a lot of my work is very different, but I still try to continue using the same iconography of New Mexican saints. The New Mexican imagery, most of it is very simplified. And, you know, it's not like a European master's painting. It's more simplified. It's like folk art, to some degree. It could be a different level than folk art. But there's a little more refinement. And every artist has a different style or should have a different style.

Some do it exactly like the old Suntettos or European style. But I really honor and respect the artists that really focus on their own creativity. Did you describe what you found as unique about your style? I strive for excellence in my work. But I do love sometimes the rough part of the textures and things on some of my pieces enhance the work. It doesn't have to be super polished or anything. But, you know, the textures add a lot of quality to it. Interesting. So, does the texture of the wood even? Because there's a tool you use.

Yes. In making some of my pieces, I use the hand-ats and chisels and all kinds of hand tools. And one of my favorite tools is actually a needle. I use a needle for many things. It sounds crazy, but I do. To cut? No, it's a needle. It's just for outlining different things the way I use it. And when I'm making jewelry, I use needles for moving sodders around and stuff. But it's some of the simplest tools that you can use, you know, a knife, you know, a razor. In fact, when I was a little boy, when I really actually realized that I could make things, I was at my father's house. And he had a lot of, he was a cowboy. And he had a pile of cowboy books full of cattle and stuff. And I saw some kind of a special cow.

And I got his double-sided razor. And I carved out that cow onto a piece of wood. And I said, wow, that's, you know, I didn't know it was dangerous to carve with such a sharp razor. Did you hurt yourself? I did hurt myself, and I carved the cow. So it was fascinating to me. At that point, you know, I realized that I had something artistic. I had a gift. Is there a history to having a private chapel? I think not everybody had family chapels, you know, a lot of the wealthy families had their own or had artisans build a chapel for them. I think the importance is, I mean, any little shrine. You know, you can light a candle, you can say a prayer outside or inside. That would surprise.

I think for my own family chapel, it's a thing that, you know, it's decorated with things my family have made. And we treasure some of the pieces, yes. Is there, I guess there is a tradition of it. So, what is the job of artists, do you think? The job of an artist is to enjoy life and share with other people the beauty they see in their own world. You know, many artists make things, but it's the joy of, they get joy from the people appreciating their work. I think it's important for every artist to be appreciated. I think that's the payment that the most rewarding thing they can get is the work is something that, others can see for the first time a creation, to create something out of with their own hands and other people can enjoy.

Do you think it's kind of a form of communication? Definitely. What would life be without art? Exactly. Why is Christian iconography important to you? I think I've always been surrounded by all my lives here and here. There's a lot of stories that I have to tell you about when I was a child. We didn't have gas stoves or anything. In fact, we lived in a one-room house and had a wood stove and we would take baths in a little metal tub, but our neighbor would bring wood over.

He had a wood pile and I would have to chop wood. You can imagine a five-year-old trying to chop wood for the house and put the doll axe. One day he brought... You know how a robot would look if you got under it? He brought panels like that and they were all decorated with saints. It was a building that they were remodeling. I think it was part of the cathedral. He ended up with... He was a master carpenter and he ended up with all these scraps. We're probably very collectible, but that was my playhouse. All these pieces underneath were part of the wood pile. Wow, look at this beautiful. They were part of a dome. That really inspired me, too. Wow, yeah.

So can you tell us about the piece and maybe start with the full name and the date? Do you need a drink or anything? I think I will get a drink. Construction was 12. I finished carpenter. That's why I loved the difference of finished work in mills lenders. Right. But yeah, I've done construction all of them. That's cool. You were your dad probably building a place. My father, my grandfather, they were all stone masons, cement finishers and stone masons. And they have beautiful walls in their houses. Well, I own my grandfather's house and my uncle's house, which are right next to each other. And it's a historical area in San Fei and they were all amazing builders.

That's wonderful. Can you tell me, I want to hear a little bit more about you said that like a monk. I think I've told this story before and maybe Michael got some of this information before. When I was making the altar screen behind me, I was working late at night in my garage. That's where I made it. It was from the floor to the ceiling. That's how high the piece is. It's 8 feet 4 inches high. And I was kneeling down in front of the image of a sangabria.

But I had removed all the panels off because I was painting the spirals. And all of a sudden this cloud is hard to describe. It wasn't jet black. It was like a cloud of moving in. It was like brown and gray. But the voice asked me to come into heaven. And I said, I can't. I have too much work. And I've always said that, you know, my mom would always ask me. And I really believe it was God's voice talking to me, asking me to come into this world. His heaven.

And I said it. I always told my mom, no, I always had too much work. And it almost became like a motto. I have too much work to do. But that was really moving to me as my work and, you know, it's quite a connection. I probably didn't describe it, you know, because it was just a special moment in my life. An instant. That's just amazing. And so, excuse me. The artist job is your job. It's to almost express some of that thing. Yeah. And the reason that I think this room is really special when I was building it, I would always get up at four in the morning and work a good 16 hours a day.

And I don't do that anymore for some reason. But I did it for 18 years straight. And so, I got it, you know, two days out of one. But one morning, I got up at four in the morning and I was building this chapel here. And I needed to work up on the roof. You know, I was getting an early start and I had the flood light right here. I put a ladder going out through the skylight. On the roof, there was the pattern of a black cross over the entire chapel. You know, like Georgia Keith's cross, but it was over the entire chapel. And the light was going through here. And you can look up and see it forms a cross. And I didn't know it formed a cross. But when I was up there in the light from the spot light was down here, it formed a whole cross over the entire chapel.

It was, you know, black up on top. It was asking me, wow, to see it, you know, was pretty amazing. It was a connection. You know, so I really believe in the things, you know, things that you experience somewhere religious and you keep in your heart forever. So, and let's talk about it. Okay, I forget about that. No, I wanted to ask you more questions. Sure, no problem. I'll try to stay focused on that piece. It's kind of hard because there's no imagery of it. I know. I think it would be easier to sit here, though, and do it. Sure. Because your light's nice, and it will go shoot it more. Sure. No problem. Start with the name and the date, significance of the date. Okay.

Do you want me to state that today's date also, or this year? No. Okay. Because some of my projects, like that book, took me almost six years. So, it's a thing of the past. You know, the techniques and everything, where you have a lot of priests working on, doing different pages and stuff. Okay. I'll stay focused on that. Okay. Yeah. So, let's be out of the system. It's almost like I didn't make it. Because we're going to kind of showcase it a little bit. Okay. Sure. Okay. This Buffalo Hyde painting that I've made, the title of the painting is called Un sueño de Santa Fe. 1680. Meal. Se siento ochenta. It's translated to English as a dream of holy faith.

1680. August. 1680. It's the main idea behind it is to present the actual revolt that occurred here in Santa Fe in Mexico. August 10th, 1680. This was a revolt by the Indians. The Indian Pueblos, most of the Indian Pueblos, not all the Indian Pueblos participated in the revolt. There was a few that didn't participate. And it was organized by the Indian leader. His name is Popeye. He was, I think, from San Juan, near Española. But the leaders got together in Taos and organized it. And they decided to have runners with a little cord, not a cord with the dates of when to attack.

It turned out to fall on the date of San Lorenzo St. Lawrence's feast day, which is August 10th. And so, when they attacked the people in the little towns, such as Calisteo, Desuca, Taos, all over, wherever the Spanish were, had settled in, they were attacked, and 21 priests were killed that day. They were martyred, and they were all Franciscans. In 1680, the Indians decided that they had their fill of all this slavery and abuse by the Spanish. And so, they attacked, and they killed many of the families.

During the revolt, there was approximately 400 Spanish people killed. There was, in Santa Fe, there was maybe 50 soldiers that were there to, you know, part of the fort at the Palacio. And so, all the people that survived the initial attack came to Santa Fe to escape. But, so all the other Indians came to Santa Fe and started burning all the buildings. They burnt the churches down. The oldest church, which is San Miguel, was also burnt down. And also the Parroquia. In present day, church is the main cathedral of Basilica right there in Santa Fe. This buildings were made out of adobe, and so, just the vigas and stuff were burned, and all the saints were destroyed, except for La Conquistadora, our Lady of Peace, which was taken back to Al Paso.

There was another saint, she was known as La Mastra Senora de la Macana. And the Macana is like a weapon. It has flint on it. It's probably, the design is mainly like a Mexican asterisk in design, but it was quite a weapon. But, she is shown holding it in most of the imagery. And this was 1598, that image appeared. But, there's a few paintings, I think, three or four paintings of our Lady of Mastra Senora de la Macana, and they're very rare and valuable. Because of the history. Yes.

Can you tell us about the significance of the cart? Carreta. Okay. In the painting, there's a carreta, which is an ox cart. I placed that in the painting because when the Spanish first came to New Mexico, from Mexico City, it would take about six months to get here. In Carreta were used, that was the real vehicle at that time that was used to transport thousands of people here. It would take six months to get here, and I'm sure they would load it with a couple of tons of merchandise and all their belongings to come into this frontier, try to colonize this area. And so they brought thousands of cattle and goats and chickens.

The Spanish were the first ones to introduce the horse to America. And so, that also made it big. Evan was a big advantage for the Spanish, because the Indians didn't have the horses. But I'm going on. Could you tell us about the significance of the breasted ones? And they were actually, like some of the natives joined. Okay. Some of the Native American Indians that were depicted in the hide painting are Pudlow Indians, or Indians that were allies with the Spanish. Not all the Indians were their allies. But when the Spanish first came to Mexico and conquered Mexico, a lot of the Indians there united with the Spanish to conquer the other Indians. And some of those Indians came up from Mexico with them as allies.

They fought alongside in many battles against other Indians. So they were wearing no other armor? So some of the Indians are depicted wearing a special armor made out of buffalo hide. There were like two or three layers of hides, so the arrows wouldn't penetrate into their bodies. And the Spanish also wore that same kind of uniform, except some of the soldiers also had the metal breast plates in the Spanish helmets. A lot of that armor was made in different countries throughout Europe. In Germany, there was people that specialized in making armor. And the Spanish would either buy or trade from different countries.

But a lot of that was brought here to America. And there's very few examples that are actually left. I think there's only one soldier's uniform, which is known as Sovalo de Cuera's uniform, which is in Spain. This is an actual armor from Spain. And it was used here in America. And they took it back a bit. It's the only example. Yeah, I saw a part of one at the Palace of the Governor's last week, which was all made out of leather. This is kind of like a romance, you know, protected. But designed so you could ride a horse. So it was split right here, but real thick leather, so you'd be protected. Could you tell us in the painting, St. Francis is actually there? Uh-oh. Can you slide just a little bit to your right? I'm liking how we're seeing some of the candles. Right here.

Split it. Just back to your left. Just a teeny bit. There it is. Yeah. Oh. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. I'm an artist too, you know. Okay. St. Francis. Okay. I painted St. Francis on the high painting because it depicts the stigma that he received. I actually liked the wounds of Christ on his hands and his feet and his chest. And the reason I wanted St. Francis to end there because they were all Franciscan priests that were martyred. And they were the first to come to America with the Spanish colonizers. Um, significance of the three that are there's I think they're three Indians up in my corner.

Yes. Okay. Um, before the revolt, um, Popeye who was, um, was a medicine man or a sorcerer like the Spanish, um, uh, were accusing of being a sorcerer. He was actually, uh, scorched and whipped, uh, on the plaza, Santa Fe plaza, uh, with many other Indians that were also accused of being sorcerers. Um, for some reason witchcraft and there was a lot of superstitious people amongst the Spanish. And in many cultures, there is a lot of superstition, especially at that period of time. They ended up hanging three or four Indians.

But Popeye was not hung at the time or he was actually just tortured quite a bit, but he organized. In Tows, uh, for the revolt to happen in August 10th. So he was the main guy, men or organizer. Um, so how are you as an artist, how are you bringing history into? Well, bringing the historical images like this as the, the title of the piece in Swenio de Santa Fe. It's a dream, a dream of holy faith.

It's everything that is on this high painting is not factual. It's like a dream, a moment in time. It just captures a lot of things that may have gone on in Santa Fe. It's not, you know, it's not like a photograph I documented, I filmed it. Even like the Seguester Hyde painting, it was, there aren't as the painted that may have not even been there, but was, the story was related to a different person. Could have been the person that was actually there, but they had to draw everything out. So it's, it may not all be factual of, you know, a very little image that is in place. But based on, based on historical accounts, you know, the battles and everything else between the Spanish and the Indians. You could imagine a battle scene similar to that, you know, especially, you know, after having your kachinas and your kivas destroyer or, you know, your religion, you know, to be enslaved by somebody else, you have to stand up and fight eventually.

And that's what the public revolt was all about, you know, fighting for your religion and your life, really. And so it was amazing. It was one of the best, what would you call it, battles ever planned here in New Mexico to, to drive out the Spanish out of, out of New Mexico. Basically, the Spanish, you know, when they left, there was, there was about a thousand people that actually ended up going from, from Santa Fe or the rest of New Mexico. They were headed out and they stayed in El Paso for 12 years.

And that was a hard journey, you know, especially if you were wounded and, you know, had to walk a lot of the way. Because they didn't know if the other Indians were to attack them at any point. So I was amazed that a thousand people got out alive because the numbers of Indians that attacked couldn't kill them all easily.