New Mexico in Focus; 502; Redistricting Primer; Artisode 3.2: John Nichols

SRT Captions File Generated by MXFplus >> PARTIAL FUNDING FOR THE PRODUCTION OF "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION. >> AHEAD THIS WEEK, SETTING THE STAGE FOR THE POLITICAL BATTLE OF THE FALL IN NEW MEXICO; REDISTRICTING. >> THE REAL ISSUE ISN'T POLITICS, IT IS GOVERNANCE AND WE HAVE A DUTY TO GOVERN. >> PLUS, FRESH OFF THE FOURTH OF JULY HOLIDAY, THE LINE PANELISTS TACKLE WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PATRIOTIC IN TODAY'S SOCIETY. >> "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" STARTS NOW. >> 10 YEARS AGO, NEW MEXICO HAD A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR AND

A DEMOCRAT-LED LEGISLATURE. THAT LED TO A MONUMENTAL FIGHT OVER REDISTRICTING. THE PROCESS OF REDRAWING CONGRESSIONAL BOUNDARIES BASED ON THE U.S. CENSUS REPORT. IN FACT, THE BATTLE ENDED UP IN COURT AT A PRICE TAG OF MORE THAN 3 MILLION-DOLLARS TO YOU THE TAXPAYER. IN THE END, A JUDGE HAD TO DECIDE ON SOME OF THOSE NEW BOUNDARIES, WHILE GOVERNOR GARY JOHNSON AND THE LEGISLATURE REACHED A COMPROMISE ON SOME OF THE OTHERS. FAST FORWARD TO THIS FALL, WHERE NEW MEXICO WILL ONCE AGAIN BE FACED WITH A REDISTRICTING DEBATE. AND ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR AND DEMOCRAT-LED LEGISLATURE. SO, ARE WE HEADED FOR A SIMILAR OUTCOME OR WILL LAWMAKERS AND GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ BE ABLE TO REACH A COMPROMISE? AHEAD THIS WEEK, ON "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS", WE FIND OUT EXACTLY HOW THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS WILL WORK FROM SOME OF THE LAWMAKERS ON THE COMMITTEE CHARGED WITH FINDING A SOLUTION. SPEAKING OF POPULATION SHIFTS AND GROWTH, A NEW STUDY SHOWS THAT ALBUQUERQUE WILL SOON REACH ONE MILLION RESIDENTS. IT'S A LANDMARK THAT WILL

LIKELY HAVE BIG IMPLICATIONS IN TERMS OF PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE AS OUR LINE PANELISTS ARE PREPARED TO DISCUSS. BUT, UP FIRST, LET'S GET THE LOWDOWN ON THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS WHICH IS SET TO BEGIN DURING A SPECIAL SESSION SOME TIME IN SEPTEMBER. >> HERE IS NMIF CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND WITH MORE. >> JOINING US TODAY IS REPRESENTATIVE KEN MARTINEZ FROM GRANTS, ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE'S REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE AND REPRESENTATIVE LARRY LARRANAGA, ALSO PART OF THAT COMMITTEE. THE COMMITTEE WILL BE CALLED INTO SPECIAL SESSION IN SEPTEMBER TO TACKLE THIS ISSUE. WITH US AS WELL IS POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR MICHAEL ROCCA OF UNM. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. >> MICHAEL, I WANT TO ASK YOU, IN TERMS OF THE BIG PICTURE, WHY DO WE NEED TO DEAL WITH REDISTRICTING? WHY DO WE NEED TO DO IT? >> IT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION. WE'RE IN THE THIRD STAGE OF A CONSTITUTIONALLY-MANDATED THREE-PART PROCESS. THE FIRST PROCESS HAPPENS EVERY 10 YEARS. THE CONSTITUTION SAYS WE NEED TO COUNT HEADS, WE NEED A CENSUS.

ONCE WE KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE LIVE IN EACH STATE IN THE U.S., THEN SEATS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ARE REAPPORTIONED. BASED ON THE CHANGES IN POPULATION IN EACH STATE, SOME STATES WILL LOSE SEATS AND OTHERS WILL GAIN SEATS AND MOST STATES WILL ACTUALLY REMAIN THE SAME. AND THEN THE THIRD STEP IS THE PART OF THE PROCESS THAT WE'RE CURRENTLY ENGAGED IN. ONCE WE HAVE DESIGNATED THE SEATS PER STATE, WE THEN HAVE TO REDISTRICT THEM. AND BY WE, I MEAN EACH STATE, IT IS THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY TO REDRAW DISTRICTS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND THEN ALSO WE'LL DISCUSS IT AT THE STATE LEVEL. THAT HAPPENS AND IS CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED EVERY 10 YEAR PERIOD. >> WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONGRESS, EVERY MEMBER OF THE HOUSE SHOULD REPRESENT THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE? >> THAT IS ONE OF THE RULES, EXACTLY RIGHT. >> SO, IF NEW MEXICO IS GROWING, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THIS TIME, WE COULD HYPOTHETICALLY

GET ANOTHER DISTRICT? >> EXACTLY. AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY -- WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED SIX YEARS AGO, THERE WAS TALK OF US GAINING ANOTHER SEAT BECAUSE OUR POPULATION GROWTH SEEMED TO BE HEADING THAT DIRECTION, BUT AS IT TURNED OUT, WE HAVE, I BELIEVE IT WAS 13% GROWTH IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. IT WASN'T QUITE ENOUGH TO GET US THAT EXTRA SEAT. THERE WERE OTHER STATES THAT GAINED MORE AS FAR AS POPULATION GROWTH GOES AND AS A RESULT, THEY GAINED MORE SEATS. THE 2010 CENSUS LOOKED A LOT LIKE TREND-WISE THE 2000 CENSUS DID. THE BIG LOSERS WERE THE NORTH AND NORTHEAST AND THE BIG WINNERS, AS FAR AS POPULATION GAIN, IS SOUTH, SOUTHWEST AND WEST, SO YOU HAD STATES LIKE NEW YORK LOSE TWO SEATS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE AND YOU HAVE THE BIGGEST WINNER OF THEM ALL IS TEXAS WHO GAINS FOUR SEATS. IN NEW MEXICO, MUCH LIKE, I THINK IT WAS ABOUT, OH, MAYBE 40 OTHER STATES, JUST REMAINED THE SAME. >> ON THE STATE TEAM, REPRESENTATIVE LARRANAGA, THE

POPULATION IS SHIFTING AROUND AND SOME PARTS OF THE STATE GOING -- THE MAP IS GOING CHANGE. YOU WERE AROUND LAST TIME AND YOUR DISTRICT CHANGED A LOT. TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU IN THE LAST REDISTRICTING PROCESS. >> IN THE LAST REDISTRICTING IN MY PARTICULAR DISTRICT, WE HAD THE POPULATION SHIFT TO THE WESTSIDE AS IT DID THIS LAST 10 YEARS AS WELL, BUT WHAT HAPPENED IS WE MOVED ONE OF THOSE DISTRICTS OUT OF THAT AREA AND MOVED IT TO THE WEST AND SO OUT OF THE 15 PRECINCTS THAT I HAD I ONLY KEPT THREE. THE OTHER 12 WENT INTO THE DISTRICT THAT GOT MOVED TO THE WEST. SAME THING HAS HAPPENED THIS TIME AROUND IN THAT THE WEST PART OF ALBUQUERQUE AND RIO RANCHO, AND LAS CRUCES AND AREAS LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCED THE HIGHEST GROWTH. NOT LIKE WE DID THE LAST -- IN THE LAST DECADE BETWEEN 1990 AND THE YEAR 2000, WE GREW BY 20% THAT DECADE.

THIS DECADE, WE ONLY GREW BY 13%. THE DIFFERENCE WAS LAST TIME IS THAT 17 DIFFERENT COUNTIES IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO GREW AT THAT RATE OF 20% THE LAST TIME. THIS TIME, ONLY SIX COUNTIES GAINED THE POPULATION AND THOSE COUNTIES OBVIOUSLY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE IN THE URBAN AREAS. WE ARE BECOMING OR WE ARE FOLLOWING THE SAME PATTERN THAT ARIZONA AND NEVADA HAVE DONE. LAST 10 YEARS, OR THE 10 YEARS BEFORE THAT, 20 YEARS AGO, IN THAT WE'RE SEEING THE CONCENTRATION OF THE POPULATION IN THE URBAN AREAS AND IN THE RURAL AREAS, THEY ARE ALL LOSING POPULATION. THIS TIME AROUND EVERY ONE OF THE RURAL AREAS LOST POPULATION. >> NOW, REPRESENTATIVE MARTINEZ, YOU HAVE ONE OF THESE BIG DISTRICTS. YOU REPRESENT A LITTLE NEIGHBORHOOD REALLY IN ALBUQUERQUE AND YOU HAVE GOT HUNDREDS OF SQUARE MILES, PROBABLY, DON'T YOU? >> YEAH. >> THIS POPULATION SHIFT FROM

RURAL TO URBAN IS GOING TO MEAN WE ALREADY HAVE SOME REALLY BIG, ESPECIALLY IN THE SENATE, SOME REALLY BIG RURAL DISTRICTS. THIS COULD MEAN THAT SOME SENATORS AND HOUSE MEMBERS ARE KIND OF MAPPED OUT OF A GIG; ISN'T THAT A POSSIBILITY? >> I ASKED THAT QUESTION SPECIFICALLY AT OUR FIRST MEETING WITH THE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE AND I ASKED BRIAN SANDEROFF, IS THERE A MAP OR CONCEPT THAT SAYS WE SAVE ALL INCUMBENT SEATS? IS THERE A POSSIBILITY TO PUT A MAP TOGETHER BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE BEING ONE MAN ONE VOTE, EVERYBODY IS EQUAL, IS IT POSSIBLE? HE SAID HE COULDN'T EVEN PUT IT UP FOR US TO LOOK AT, IT WAS SO HARD TO PUT IT TOGETHER. >> THE PRIORITY ISN'T TO SAVE SEATS BUT HAVE DISTRICTS THAT KIND OF LOOK REPRESENTATIVE AND CONTAIN THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T HAVE A DISTRICT ANYMORE, WELL -- >> THE THEORY IS AND IT IS A CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE, IS EVERYBODY SHOULD BE EQUALLY REPRESENTED SO IF THERE WAS

100 PEOPLE OUT THERE, FIVE REPRESENTATIVES, EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE 1/20, WE EACH HAVE THE SAME ABILITY TO GO TO OUR LEGISLATOR, BECAUSE -- IT USED TO BE EACH COUNTY HAD A SENATOR BUT YOU COULD HAVE SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, BERNALILLO COUNTY, YOU KNOW, 1 OUT OF 300,000. AND THEN YOU WENT TO ANOTHER SMALL COUNTY. >> -- HAS HOW MANY COUNTIES DOES HE REPRESENT, 12. >> HIS DISTRICT IS BIGGER THAN MANY STATES. >> IT IS. AND THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE PROBABLY TOO. I AM SURE THAT AREA OF THE STATE IS AMONG ONE OF THE ONES THAT LOST A LITTLE BIT OF POPULATION. >> I GUESS, IT IS NOT A LOSS OF POPULATION. MUCH OF RURAL NEW MEXICO STAYED THE SAME. CIBOLA COUNTY, WHERE I AM FROM, GREW AT 6% BUT THE STATE GREW AT 13%. I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE WE'RE LOSING PEOPLE, BUT YOU ARE NOT GROWING AT THE SAME RATE. IT IS AN EQUAL DIFFICULT TASK IN THE CENTER OF ALBUQUERQUE BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE CAN'T LIVE THERE. IT IS COMPLETELY INFILL, NO

NEW HOUSES BEING BUILT, NO NEW APARTMENTS, SO THE FOLKS THAT LIVE THERE ARE GOING TO STAY THE SAME. IT IS STATIC POPULATION SO THE STATE GROWS BY 13%, YOU CAN'T BUILD ANYMORE HOUSES IN NORTHEAST HEIGHTS, THEY ARE GOING TO BE 13 POINTS BEHIND. >> THAT IS ACTUALLY A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. YOU THINK ABOUT IT AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL AS WELL, JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS A STATE IN U.S., I COULD BE WRONG, MAYBE ONE OR TWO, BUT LAST TIME I CHECKED THE CENSUS NUMBERS THAT ACTUALLY LOST POPULATION. EVERYBODY GAINS POPULATION. SOME GAIN AT A FASTER RATE THAN OTHERS, SO THE ONES THAT ARE GAINING AT THE FASTEST RATES ARE THE ONES THAT END UP WITH THE MOST SEATS AND THOSE WHO ARE GAINING ONLY ZERO TO 5%, THEY TYPICALLY LOSE SEATS. AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL THERE IS INTERESTING POINT TO BE MADE REGARDING THE QUESTION ABOUT LARGE GEOGRAPHIC SIZE VERSUS SMALL GEOGRAPHIC SIZE PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT EQUAL POPULATION. THINK OF THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA IN CALIFORNIA OR LA, IN CALIFORNIA, THESE TINY DISTRICTS AT U.S. CONGRESSIONAL LEVEL AND YOU

THINK ABOUT MONTANA, OR WYOMING, RIGHT? STATES WITH ONLY ONE REPRESENTATIVE. SO, THOSE ARE CALLED DISTRICT AT LARGE, WHERE THERE IS ACTUALLY MORE SENATORS IN THAT STATE THAN THERE ARE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE. SO, THIS IS A REAL ISSUE, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT COMPLICATED THAT WOULD BE FOR A SINGLE MEMBER OF THE HOUSE TO TRAVEL AN ENTIRE STATE TO REPRESENT HIS OR HER CONSTITUENTS VERSUS JUST JUMP ON MAYBE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION AND TRAVEL AROUND SAN FRANCISCO OR LA. IT HAS REALLY IMPORTANT IMPLICATIONS FOR THE TYPE OF REPRESENTATIONAL STYLE THAT A MEMBER OF CONGRESS DELIVERS TO THEIR VOTERS. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PROCESS IN GENERAL. MANY OF US ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM GERRYMANDERING. LET'S TALK ABOUT WHEN REDISTRICTING GOES WRONG. SOME OF THE REDISTRICTING FOR EVIL AND NOT FOR GOOD. TALK TO ME ABOUT GERRYMANDERING. >> THAT IS REDISTRICTING FOR POLITICAL PURPOSE. THERE ARE THREE TYPES. THERE IS PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING WHERE THE POLITICAL PARTIES IN CHARGE OF A STATE REDRAW DISTRICTS TO

BENEFIT THEIR PARTY. TYPICALLY YOU SEE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING WHEN THERE IS UNITED CONTROL IN A STATE. WHEN ONE PARTY CONTROLS THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR, THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE. AND THEN THERE IS INCUMBENT GERRYMANDERING, PRO-INCUMBENT, ALSO KNOWN AS SWEET HEART GERRYMANDERING AND THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE DIVIDED CONTROL AND THE GOAL IS TO PROTECT THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY IN OFFICE. THE THIRD TYPE, ONE THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR MAYBE 20 YEARS OR SO AND IT IS A REALLY CONTROVERSIAL ONE, IS RACIAL GERRYMANDERING. THAT IS USED TO BUILD DISTRICTS THAT ARE MAJORITY/MINORITY, IN OTHER WORDS IT MEANS YOU HAVE A TRADITIONAL MINORITY GROUP, LIKE AFRICAN AMERICANS, WHO ARE PUT IN A DISTRICT WHO THEN MAKE UP A MAJORITY OF THAT DISTRICT. SO IT WOULD BE 70% AFRICAN AMERICAN PERSON 30% WHITE. AND THAT WAS DESIGNED AS A WAY TO PROMOTE THE ELECTABILITY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS INTO CONGRESS. YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT, THIS IS

USUALLY WHEN THE BIG DEBATES REGARDING REDISTRICTING COMES ABOUT IS BECAUSE OF ONE OF THOSE THREE REASONS. >> THERE IS OTHER TERMS THAT I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT; CRACKING AND PACKING. >> EXACTLY. >> DEFINE THOSE FOR ME. >> PACKING IS WHEN LIKE WHAT WE DID WITH THE RACIAL GERRYMANDERING WHEN YOU PUT A BUNCH OF MINORITIES, AFRICAN AMERICANS OR DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS INTO ONE DISTRICT. YOU'RE PACKING ONE DISTRICT FULL OF ONE GROUP. CRACKING IS WHEN YOU DILUTE THAT GROUP FROM A DISTRICT, SO, YOU SPLIT A DISTRICT THAT HURTS A PARTICULAR POLITICAL PARTY OR HURTS A PARTICULAR RACIAL OR ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT IS CRACKING. SO YOU THINK OF PACKING PUTTING PEOPLE IN, CRACKING TAKING PEOPLE OUT. >> RIGHT. REPRESENTATIVE LARRANAGA, HOW MUCH PRESSURE DO YOU FEEL WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REDISTRICTING TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE NOT ACCUSED OF ANY KIND OF GERRYMANDERING OR POLITICAL PURPOSE? >> YOU HAVE TO WALK A FINE

LINE. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AS PART OF OUR CHARGE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PROVIDE DISTRICTS THAT HAVE THE SAME COMMUNITY OF INTEREST IN THAT SENSE, YOU KNOW, BUT THEN YOU CAN'T HAVE THE COMMUNITY OF INTEREST AND SAYING YOU ARE PACKING, JUST ALL OF THE AFRICAN AMERICANS OR NATIVE AMERICANS OR ONE TYPE OF PEOPLE OR ONE GROUP OR, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICAL SIDE OF THAT IS WHEN YOU'RE PACKING IT FOR REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, I DON'T THINK THE COURTS WILL PAY TOO MUCH ATTENTION TO YOU BECAUSE THAT GOES ON ALL THE TIME. AND IT IS PRESSURE ON US TO ASSURE THAT WE HAVE A BALANCE OF REPRESENTATION FOR THE PEOPLE THAT WE REPRESENT. WE FEEL THAT PRESSURE. THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT. >> REPRESENTATIVE MARTINEZ, WE HAVE A DIVIDED SITUATION HERE WITH A LEGISLATURE WHICH IS CONTROLLED PRIMARILY BY DEMOCRATS ALTHOUGH IT IS CLOSE IN THE HOUSE AND YET THE GOVERNOR IS REPUBLICAN. HOW IS THAT DYNAMIC GOING TO

AFFECT THESE DECISIONS? YOU KNOW, LAST TIME, THE PLANS DRAWN UP BY THE LEGISLATURE ENDED UP IN COURT. GOVERNOR JOHNSON VETOED SOME OF THEM AND IT ENDED UP COSTING THE STATE MORE THAN THREE MILLION TO SORT IT OUT. HOW IS THIS DYNAMIC NOW DIFFERENT OR IS IT? >> IN A SENSE, IT IS THE SAME DYNAMIC. WE HAVE A LEGISLATURE CONTROLLED BY DEMOCRATS AND A REPUBLICAN EXECUTIVE. HOWEVER, THE REAL ISSUE ISN'T POLITICS. IT IS GOVERNANCE. AND WE HAVE A DUTY TO GOVERN AND ONE OF THE DUTIES WE HAVE IS THIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY TO REDISTRICT OURSELVES AND WE DO IT LEGISLATIVELY SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR. IF THERE IS NOT AGREEMENT THEN IT GOES TO THE COURTS. I THINK WE HAD SOME PRETTY GOOD GUIDANCE FROM THE COURT. I WAS TALKING ABOUT AT IT THE FIRST MEETING, WHEN THE COURT SAID, DO AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE TO MAKE IT EQUAL. SO, YOU KIND OF DON'T GET TIED UP IN POLITICAL CONCERNS, PACKING, CRACKING. OF COURSE, YOU CAN'T DO THOSE

THINGS BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE EXISTING DISTRICTS AND I HAVE A MAP OF THEM OR THE DEVIATIONS, YOU DON'T SEE ANY GERRYMANDERING. YOU SEE PRETTY COMPACT DISTRICTS. THEY ALL LOOK LIKE GEOMETRIC STATES. THEY DON'T LOOK LIKE -- SO WE HAVE PRETTY COMPACT DISTRICTS, YOU KNOW, NOT COMPACT SMALL IN SIZE, BUT COMPACT THEY ARE ALL FIT TOGETHER LIKE THIS. YOU HAVE A MAP THERE AND YOU CAN SEE IT ON THE LEGISLATIVE WEBSITE. >> DOES THE MONEY PLAY A FACTOR? DOES THE THREAT OF SPENDING MILLIONS, OF MONEY THAT WE KIND OF DON'T HAVE RIGHT NOW ON FIGHTING THIS IN COURT, DOES THAT PUT PRESSURE ON YOU TO SAY, LET'S JUST DO SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO AGREE ON? >> ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE DONE EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SAVE MONEY. WE HAD A BUDGET FOR REDISTRICTING AND PART OF THAT WAS LINE ITEM VETOED OUT. SO WE JUST HAD OUR LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL MEETING, WE CUT BACK THE AMOUNT OF MEETINGS PEOPLE CAN ATTEND, KIND OF ASKED THEM NOT TO GO TO NATIONAL MEETINGS. WE SAID YOU CAN GO TO DO BUT

HAVE TO ASK LEADERSHIP PERMISSION. WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SAVE MONEY AND EACH DAY WE'RE IN SESSION IT COSTS MONEY. ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE GOING TO ASK THE GOVERNOR AND THE GOVERNOR HAS THEIR OWN AUTHORITY AND IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL AND WE RESPECT THAT, BUT WE'RE GOING TO ASK THE GOVERNOR JUST DO REDISTRICTING. IF WE CALL A SESSION FOR REDISTRICTING. THAT SHOULD BE THE ONLY CHARGE. >> OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DRIVER'S LICENSE. ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH FIREWORKS? >> I DON'T KNOW, THE FOURTH WOULD BE OVER. HERE IS THE THING, IF YOU DO LEGISLATION, ITS EFFECTIVE DATE IS NOT MUCH EARLIER THAN WE WOULD DO IT IN JANUARY ANYWAY. SO, THE QUESTION IS, DO YOU WANT TO ADD ON MORE AT SO MANY DOLLARS PER DAY AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IF YOU WANTED TO BE MORE CAUTIOUS ABOUT IT, REDISTRICTING WOULD BE ONLY ABOUT REDISTRICTING, GET IN AND OUT AS FAST AS YOU CAN. >> WE HAVE FURTHER RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE THAT REDISTRICTING IS OCCURRING. WE ARE GOING AROUND THE STATE, HAVING SEVEN, EIGHT MEETINGS ACROSS THE STATE TO ASSURE PEOPLE

THAT THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE THEIR INPUT AND TELL US WHAT THEIR COMMUNITY OF INTEREST IS AND WHAT IMPACT IT IS GOING TO HAVE ON THEM. SO, WE'RE TRYING TO BALANCE BOTH SIDES AND WE'RE SAYING WE DON'T WANT TO SPEND TOO MUCH MONEY BUT WE WANT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO BE THERE AND GIVE US SOME INPUT INTO THE REDISTRICTING. >> WHAT KIND OF INPUT? IF I COME TO ONE OF THESE MEETINGS AND I AM IN YOUR DISTRICT, WHAT AM I GOING TO LEARN AT THIS MEETING AND WHAT AM I GOING TO SAY? >> YOU'RE GOING TO LEARN, YOU KNOW, HOW COMPLICATED THIS ALL IS GOING TO BE, FIRST OF ALL. AND PEOPLE JUST SAYING, WELL, I'LL REALIGN ONE DISTRICT. YOU CANNOT JUST REALIGN ONE DISTRICT WITH NOT IMPACTING THE WHOLE STATE AND EVERY OTHER DISTRICT. SO YOU HAVE TO EDUCATE YOURSELF AND IT IS AN EDUCATION PROCESS THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH AND I THINK PEOPLE WILL FIND IT INTERESTING. BUT I THINK IT ALSO WILL MAKE SURE THAT THOSE PEOPLE ARE SAYING, YEAH, WE CAN DO THIS BUT EVERYBODY HAS TO BE IN THE

BOAT AND EVERYBODY HAS TO ROW IN THE SAME DIRECTION IF WE WANT TO HAVE A REDISTRICTING THAT IS BENEFICIAL FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO. >> WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN TERMS OF CHANGES FOR YOUR DISTRICT? >> FOR MY DISTRICT, YOU KNOW, I HAD A PERCENTAGE THAT I DIDN'T GROW AS FAST AS THE REST OF THE STATE, ABOUT 6% GROWTH, 13% GROWTH. SMALLER DISTRICTS DON'T HAVE TO BE EXACTLY EQUAL, SO, THE COURTS HAVE BASICALLY RULED PLUS OR MINUS 5%, THAT IS KIND OF A MATHEMATIC RULE. THE SMALLER YOU GET THE HARDER IT IS TO GET EXACTLY EQUAL. A LOT OF US THAT ARE DOWN 1,000, 2,000 PEOPLE, UP OR DOWN, WE'RE STILL WITHIN THE PLUS OR MINUS. SO, THOSE FOLKS THAT ARE KIND OF RIGHT THERE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE DRIVEN BY OUR PLUS OR MINUSES, WE'LL BE DRIVEN BY THE PLUS OR MINUSES IN ALBUQUERQUE AND THEN IN THE TWO CORNERS. SO, YOU'LL SEE THESE RIPPLES GO IN THERE HOW THEY APPROACH. MY GENERAL REACTION IS I'LL

PROBABLY HAVE TO MOVE EAST A LITTLE BIT. I USED TO REPRESENT SANDOVAL COUNTY. INSTEAD OF SAN JUAN, I HAD THE AND A NAVAJO PRECINCT IN SANDOVAL AND SANDOVAL GREW SO IT IS KIND OF AN INTERESTING THING TO SAY WHAT ABOUT THE NAVAJO PRECINCTS IN SANDOVAL NOW GOING TO MY DISTRICT, WHICH IS THE NATIVE AMERICAN MAJORITY DISTRICT. THE ISSUE IS YOU SHOULD GIVE MINORITY VOTING BLOCKS THAT ARE COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST THE OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT THE CANDIDATE OF THEIR CHOICE. AND, SO, IF YOU WOULD TAKE TRADITIONAL NATIVE AMERICAN SEAT AND DIVIDE THAT UP, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT IS THE CRACKING, AND ACTUALLY CRACKING HAPPENED BEFORE PACKING. YOU KNOW WHAT THEY USED TO DO IS GO IN THE SOUTH AND TAKE THESE BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS THAT COULD ELECT A CONGRESSMAN OR A SENATOR OR A HOUSE MEMBER AND THEY WOULD DIVIDE IT UP AND MAKE SURE WE HAD 30%, 30%, 30%. MAKE SURE THEY DIDN'T GET ELECTED AND WE SAID, WAIT A SECOND WE HAVE OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT.

THE OPPOSITE OF THAT IS TO SAY THEY COULD ELECT AT 55% EACH, LET'S PACK THEM ALL IN THERE AND NOW THEY CAN ONLY ELECT ONE. SO, THAT IS WHAT THE COURTS ARE GOING TO LOOK AT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. ARE THEY BASICALLY EQUAL AND IS THERE ANY SHENANIGANS WITH REGARD TO EITHER DILUTING MINORITY VOTING STRENGTH BY CRACKING THEM, SAYING HERE IS A DISTRICT WE'LL SPLIT IT UP. NOW THEY CAN'T WIN ANYMORE OR BY PACKING. THERE IS TWO DISTRICTS NOW THERE IS ONLY ONE. >> SO PEOPLE CAN COME TO SOME OF THESE MEETINGS ALL OVER THE STATE AND THERE IS INFORMATION ON OUR WEBSITE ABOUT THAT AND THEY CAN COME AND WATCH SOME OF THE PROCEEDINGS DURING THIS SPECIAL SESSION WHICH WILL PROBABLY BE FIRST OR SECOND WEEK OF SEPTEMBER. WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN DURING THE SPECIAL SESSION? GAME PLAN IT FOR US. >> I THINK WE'LL ALL HAVE A LOVE FEST FOR ABOUT 15 MINUTES AND THEN THE REAL WORK STARTS. IT IS GOING TO BE CONTENTIOUS. IT IS A POLITICAL GAME. THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. NEW MEXICO IS A

MAJORITY/MINORITY STATE, SO WE DON'T HAVE TOO MUCH OF THOSE ISSUES, YOU KNOW, WITH THE HISPANIC VERSUS ANGLO OR WHATEVER. BUT, WE START DRAWING MAPS. WE START LOOKING AT IT AND EVERYBODY, LIKE ANY OTHER PIECE OF LEGISLATION, IF I WANT TO DRAW UP A MAP AND SAY HERE IS MY MAP OF TAKING ALL THE HOUSE SEATS AND BRINGING IT UP BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE WILL DO THE SAME THING. MOST OF THE TIME THEY START WITH THEIRS AND WE START WITH OURS AND WE USUALLY RESPECT THEIR VIEW AND THEY RESPECT OURS. THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IS GOING TO BE EVERYBODY'S BALL GAME AND THE SAME THING WITH THE PUBLIC REGULATION COMMISSION, WHICH WE DON'T TALK TOO MUCH ABOUT. THOSE WILL ALSO BE IN THE REDISTRICTING PLAN, SO WE START DRAWING MAPS, WE START LOOKING AND WE START, YOU KNOW, HAVING THE DISCUSSION AND ALTHOUGH YOU SAY YOU CAN'T MOVE TOO MUCH, LIKE IN THE FIRST CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, IT ALL DEPENDS WHAT AREA OR

WHAT PARTICULAR PRECINCT YOU CHOOSE TO PUT IN THE PLAN ITSELF. SO, EVEN ONE OR TWO, OR THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT PRECINCTS CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE WHETHER THIS IS VERY COMPETITIVE, NOT COMPETITIVE AT ALL. WE ALL LOOK AT THOSE AND JUST DETERMINE WHICH ONE GIVES US -- PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, BEING ON THE MINORITY SIDE, I SAID LET US HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE COMPETITIVE IN JUST AS MANY DISTRICTS AS WE CAN POSSIBLY BE. THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE IS MORE ON THE D SIDE OF PEOPLE WHO VOTE MORE IN THE DEMOCRATS THAN IN REPUBLICANS, BUT WE'LL HAVE THIS DISCUSSION AND WE'LL HAVE THE SAME BATTLES THAT WE HAVE UP THERE BUT IT WILL BE CIVIL. >> THEY'LL COME UP AND LOOK AT YOUR MAPS AND DRAW THEIR OWN AND STICK THEIR MAPS IN YOUR OFFICE AND SAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT MY MAP. YOU CAN FIGHT OVER THESE MAPS. PROFESSOR, WHAT ARE YOU GOING

TO BE LOOKING AT? THIS IS ALL GOING TO BE DONE BY THIS FALL SO THAT WE KNOW WHO IS RUNNING FOR WHAT RIGHT? WE HAVE TO DRAW THE MAPS SO THAT PEOPLE CAN SAY, OKAY, THIS IS THE DISTRICT I WANT TO RUN IN; RIGHT? >> ABSOLUTELY. WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU START GETTING PETITIONS AND ALL THOSE PETITIONS ARE ONLY VALID IF YOU'RE -- IF THEY ARE FROM THE DISTRICT THAT YOU REPRESENT AND SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE, FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, THOSE NUMBERS, THOSE AREAS AND THEY BETTER BE WELL DEFINED BY THAT TIME SO PEOPLE CAN SAY, YES, I AM GOING TO RUN AND GATHER MY PETITIONS AND GETTING ENOUGH SIGNATURES TO HAVE VALID SIGNATURES TO RUN IN THAT. SO WE START OFF IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT. MOST OF THE TIME, THAT IS IN THE FIRST PART OF OCTOBER, SO, HOPEFULLY, WE HAVE A GOOD ALIGNMENT AND A GOOD REDISTRICTING AND WE'RE OUT OF THE WOODS BY THE TIME WE HAVE TO START GATHERING PETITIONS. >> SO, WE'LL KNOW THE NEW RULES OF THE GAME BY OCTOBER AND THEN HOW WILL THIS CHANGE FOR YOU WATCHING HOW THESE ELECTIONS PLAY OUT? >> THAT IS A GREAT POINT.

I DON'T KNOW. THAT IS STILL -- OCTOBER, THAT WILL STILL BE PRETTY EARLY, SO A LOT OF THINGS CAN HAPPEN BETWEEN OCTOBER AND THE FOLLOWING NOVEMBER. I AM NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET A REALLY GOOD SENSE FOR THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION UNTIL WE START TO SEE POLLING DATA. IF WE END UP WITH DISTRICTS THAT YOU WERE DESCRIBING, IT COULD BE RELATIVELY DRAMATIC. IT COULD JUST -- STATUS QUO COULD STILL HOLD. AND SOME OF THE THINGS I WILL BE LOOKING FOR IS REALLY NEW, GOOD POLLING DATA TO SEE HOW THINGS ARE SHAPING UP AND CANDIDATES ARE SAYING AND DOING. AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, I AM CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS TO HOUSE DELEGATION AND PARTY MARGINS. PREDICTIONS THAT I HEARD SO FAR IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO PICK UP SEATS, MAYBE, FIVE TO SIX SEATS. I HEARD AT THE LOW END, TWO OR THREE SEATS AND A LOT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THE STATES THAT EXPERIENCE POPULATION CHANGE DID SO BECAUSE OF IMMIGRANTS, BECAUSE OF HISPANICS, IN PARTICULAR, AND THEY TEND TO LEAN

DEMOCRATIC AND SO, SOME OF THOSE STATES THAT EXPERIENCED THAT POPULATION GROWTH MIGHT ACTUALLY INCREASE THEIR DEMOCRATIC DELEGATION. HOWEVER, THERE ARE ABOUT 60 TO 65 REPUBLICANS WHO CURRENTLY SIT IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES THAT WON WITH LESS THAN 55% OF THE VOTE IN 2010, SO, THEY ARE GOING BE VULNERABLE. THE REPUBLICAN STATE LEGISLATURES AND THOSE THAT ARE CONTROLLED BY -- I AM SORRY, STATES ARE CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND GOVERNOR'S OFFICE ARE GOING TO LOOK TO SHORE THOSE UP AND PROTECT THOSE SEATS. WHAT IS GOING TO END UP HAPPENING, MY GUESS IS THAT, IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES YOU'LL SEE THE DEMOCRATS PICK UP A FEW SEATS BUT SEE EXISTING NEW FRESHMEN THEN GOING TO BE SOPHOMORE REPUBLICANS STRENGTHEN THEIR MARGINS IN THEIR EXISTING DISTRICTS. SO, REPUBLICAN MAJORITY PROBABLY GOING TO HOLD BUT THE DEMOCRATS WILL PICK UP ONE OR TWO SEATS. >> I ASKED THAT QUESTION TO BE QUANTIFIED. I SAID WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD D AND GOOD R.

IN GENERAL, THE KNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE IS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS ARE BETTER PERFORMANCE FOR DEMOCRATS. GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION ARE BETTER PERFORMANCE FOR REPUBLICANS GENERALLY. SO WE SAW A GOOD DEMOCRAT YEAR WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA'S LAST YEAR AND WE SAW THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS, WHICH IS GOVERNORS, IN A BIG SWITCH. HE QUANTIFIED THAT OVER A PERIOD OF TIME IT IS ABOUT EIGHT POINTS. IF YOU'RE IN A DISTRICT THAT VOTES 55% DEMOCRAT OR 55% REPUBLICAN, THAT BECOMES A SWING SEAT. AT 58%, IT IS A SWING SEAT, SO WE TALK ABOUT THE COMPETITIVE -- 60% DISTRICT IS NO SAFE BET ANYMORE. THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE SWITCHES. >> THEY DO, THEY CERTAINLY DO THAT, BUT, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE GROWTH IS WE HAVE SEEN THE GROWTH MOVE MORE TO THE MORE CONSERVATIVE STATES. YOU TALK ABOUT TEXAS, YOU KNOW, GATHERING THAT MANY MORE CONGRESSIONAL SEATS BECAUSE OF THE POPULATION GROWTH. THEY CAME FROM THE NORTHEAST WHICH IS MORE LIBERAL OR AT

LEAST VOTES MORE LIBERAL OR HAS TRADITIONALLY. CALIFORNIA, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH THEY GREW, THEY HAVE THE SAME SITUATION. YOU HAVE SEEN ARIZONA GROW AND NEVADA AND SOME OF THOSE ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN YOU SEE IN THE AREA THAT LOST POPULATION. SO, IT IS A BIG BALANCING ACT. YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH DIRECTION THAT IS GOING TO GO. >> IT IS JUST A BIG BALANCING ACT. GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING WITH US HERE TODAY. WE HAVE MUCH MORE ON REDISTRICTING ON OUR WEBSITE, JUST HEAD TO KNME.ORG AND LOOK FOR "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" LINK. >> THE LINE PANELISTS HAVE THEIR OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS ON THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS AND HOW IT COULD AFFECT REPRESENTATION AND FUTURE ELECTIONS. LET'S GET THEIR TAKE ON THE KEY ISSUES TO WATCH FOR DURING THE UPCOMING REDISTRICTING SESSION. OUR PANELISTS THIS WEEK INCLUDE REGULARS, LAURA SANCHEZ, ENVIRONMENTAL LAWYER WITH THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNSEL, SOPHIE MARTIN, SOCIAL MEDIA

CONSULTANT AND PRESIDENT WOMEN'S LAW CAUCUS AT UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO. THAT IS NOT HOW YOU SAY YOUR NAME. >> DAN FOLEY, EX-MINORITY WHIP FOR THE STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES -- GOT ME ALL SHOOK UP HERE. NEW MEXICO WEEKLY BUSINESS STAFF WRITER, DENNIS DOMRZALSKI. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. >> DANIEL, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE ODDS THAT LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR COULD COME TOGETHER ON AGREEMENT WHEN IT COMES TO REDISTRICTING AND EVEN IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE COMMITTEE WORK THAT COMES BEFORE THAT BECAUSE, IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN, YOU HAVE HISTORY ON THIS COMMITTEE. >> SERVED ON IT AND THE CHANCES ARE SLIM AND NONE AND SLIM IS ON A BUS LEAVING TOWN. >> THERE WILL BE NO -- IT WILL GO TO COURT. >> WHAT ARE THE MAIN STUMBLING BLOCKS? BY THE WAY THAT COST US THREE MILLION WHEN WE WENT TO COURT. >> IT IS PRETTY EXPENSIVE. >> WHAT ARE THE BIG STUMBLING BLOCKS? >> IT IS ALL ABOUT ELECTABILITY OF THE PARTY. IT IS ALL ABOUT CARVING THE STATE UP. WHO IS GOING TO GET MORE CONGRESSMAN, REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS, AND WHO IS GOING TO GET MORE LEGISLATORS, REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS. IT IS GOING TO BE HOW DO YOU FIX THIS PROBLEM? PERFECT EXAMPLE, YOU LOOK AT PLACES LIKE ROSWELL WHERE I

CAME FROM. YOU HAVE SEVEN LEGISLATORS THAT LIVE IN CHAVES COUNTY, A COUNTY THAT IS UNDER 50,000. I LIVE IN RIO RANCHO. THE CITY OF RIO RANCHO IS 85,000 PEOPLE. THEY HAVE ONE LEGISLATOR. HOW DO YOU FIX THAT? YOU HAVE GOT TO FIX IT. YOU CAN'T HAVE EIGHT PEOPLE, SEVEN PEOPLE REPRESENTING 45 AND ONE REPRESENTING 85. JUST DOESN'T WORK. >> THE HOW IS THE QUESTION. THAT COMMITTEE IS GOING TO BE, WOW. >> DO WHAT CALIFORNIA HAS DONE. THEY HAVE GOT SOME COMMITTEES OUT THERE THAT BASICALLY HAVE TAKEN THE POLITICS OUT OF IT. >> HOW DO YOU DO THAT? >> IT IS STILL AN EXPERIMENT, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, BUT THEY APPOINTED A NONPARTISAN COMMITTEE TO TAKE THE POLITICS OUT OF THESE REDISTRICTING. WE'LL SEE IF IT WORKS. I SUSPECT IT WILL WORK FOR ONE TIME AROUND AND THEN EVERYBODY IS GOING TO GET ANGRY AND SAY WE DIDN'T GET OURS, BUT, IT IS SO INSANE THAT WE WOULD ALLOW THAT IN THIS COUNTRY AND IN THIS STATE. WHY NOT JUST BASE IT ON POPULATION, ON NUMBERS. PRETTY SIMPLE. >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME

UP FROM PROFESSOR ROCCA FROM UNM THAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME WAS THE IDEA THAT THEY ARE DISCUSSING THE INFAMOUS CONCEPT D. HOW DO YOU RESHAPE THE CD 1 DISTRICT BY FOLDING RIO RANCHO INTO IT, CARVING OUT THE STUFF ON THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE DISTRICT, EASTERN PART OF THE DISTRICT. THAT WOULD GO UP TO THE NORTHERN DISTRICT AND DOWN TO TWO IN THE SOUTH, OF COURSE. HIS VIEW WAS, RIO RANCHO LEANS A LITTLE BIT REPUBLICAN SO THAT WOULD OFFSET THE STUFF IN VALENCIA COUNTY THAT GETS CUT AWAY. ARE THERE SPECIAL CHALLENGES COMING WITH WHAT DAN MENTIONED FOLDING ANOTHER 80,000 INTO THIS DISTRICT, INTO CD1? DO WE BECOME A BETTER DISTRICT AFTER THAT? >> IT DEPENDS WHO IS THINKING IT IS BETTER. WHAT SIDE OF THE AISLE YOU'RE ON. >> THERE ARE CHALLENGES ALONG THOSE LINES. PARTISAN LINES MAINLY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT ANY WAY YOU DRAW A LINE YOU'RE BASICALLY MAKING A DECISION ALONG PARTY LINES. IF YOU DRAW IT ONE WAY YOU BASICALLY CREATE AN ALL

REPUBLICAN DISTRICT. IF YOU DRAW IT ANOTHER WAY, YOU'RE CREATING A MORE DEMOCRAT LEANING DISTRICT AND RIGHT NOW WE HAVE HAD POPULATION SHIFT, THAT MEANS, BASICALLY, C1 IS STILL CURRENTLY IS FAIR GAME, SORT OF A TOSS UP. WHEN IT GETS REDRAWN AND PULLS IN RIO RANCHO, THAT CHANGES IT DRAMATICALLY. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS A DISTRICT THAT COULD BE SOLIDLY REPUBLICAN. BUT THE WAY THE STATE SEEMS TO BE TRENDING ALSO, THOUGH, THAT MAY BE THE CASE ANYWAY, WHO KNOWS. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THESE ARE IMPORTANT THINGS AND I WISH WE COULD TAKE THE POLITICS OUT OF IT, BUT AS LONG AS WE HAVE A CITIZENS LEGISLATURE, THERE IS NO WAY TO TAKE THE POLITICS OUT OF IT. EVERYBODY IS SELF-INTERESTED IN SOME WAY AND THEY ARE THE FIRST LINE OF LOOKING AT IT BUT I AGREE WITH DAN, I HAVE NO DOUBT THIS WILL END UP IN COURT. >> REPRESENTATIVE LARRANAGA SAID IT WILL BE A LOVE FEST FOR THE FIRST 15 MINUTES AND THEN AFTER THAT. >> IT IS AN INTERESTING PROCESS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE WANT TO

REMEMBER FROM THE LAST LEGISLATURE, IS THAT GOVERNOR MARTINEZ DID TAKE STEPS TO LIMIT THE BUDGET OF THE GROUP THAT IS GOING TO BE DOING REDISTRICTING. THERE WILL BE MEETINGS THROUGHOUT THE STATE. I BELIEVE THEY HAVE ALREADY STATED TO DISCUSS REDISTRICTING ISSUES. BUT, ALSO, JUST TO HARKEN BACK TO 2001, THE LAST TIME WE WENT THROUGH REDISTRICTING, THAT COST US OVER FIVE MILLION DOLLARS IN THIS STATE AND NOT QUITE HALF OF THAT -- ACTUALLY MAYBE MORE THAN HALF OF THAT, WAS BECAUSE OF THE LAWSUITS THAT CAME AFTERWARDS. IF SOMEHOW, IN THIS CRAZY POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT, WE CAN GET SOME CONSENSUS ON, WE NEED TO PUT TOGETHER SOMETHING THAT WILL BE LESS LIABLE TO GET US INTO COURT, THAT WOULD BE SO HELPFUL BECAUSE WE REALLY CAN'T AFFORD THAT. >> JUST CHARGE THE COURT, THE LAWYERS FEES TO THE LEGISLATORS. >> LET'S TALK A MINUTE ABOUT SOME REALITY IN THIS DEAL. YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO FACE REDISTRICTING AND TALKED ABOUT CD1, CD2 AND 3. YOU HAVE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE

WHOSE SON IS CONGRESSMAN. DO YOU THINK HE HAS A VESTED INTEREST IN HOW THE DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN? YOU LOOK AT COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST. YOU HAVE STEVE PEARCE FROM HOBBS THAT REPRESENTS GRANTS. YOU HAVE BEN RAY LUJAN WHO GOES DOWN TO CLOVIS, YOU KNOW. ESPANOLA AND CLOVIS HAVE AS MUCH IN COMMON AS NEW YORK AND CALIFORNIA. IT IS JUST CRAZY AND SO THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO REDRAWING. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT LEGISLATURE. THE COURTS HAVE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES, INCUMBENCY PROTECTION IS A FAIR DEAL. YOU CAN DRAW DISTRICTS TO SAVE INCUMBENTS. YOU START LOOKING AT COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST, HOW DO YOU START BREAKING THIS UP? YOU HAVE NATIVE AMERICANS, MULTIPLE TRIBES IN SANDOVAL COUNTY. DO YOU BREAK THEM UP SO THEY CAN NEVER ELECT A NATIVE AMERICAN? RIGHT NOW ROGER MADALENA REPRESENTS THEM AND HE IS ONE OF A VERY FEW NATIVE AMERICANS IN THE LEGISLATURE, YET THEY ARE A HUGE POPULATION IN OUR STATE. YOU GO UP TO FARMINGTON, YOU KNOW, DO YOU BRING THOSE GUYS DOWN? DO YOU MOVE THE NAVAJOS AROUND? THEY DON'T WANT TO BE SPLIT, YOU WIND UP WITH MULTIPLE REPRESENTATIVES, REPRESENTING THE NAVAJO NATION. AND SO I THINK THAT YOU'RE

GOING TO SEE THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS GOING TO BE, ONE, TO PROTECT BEN RAY LUJAN. THAT IS GOING TO SPEAKER LUJAN'S NO. 1 GOAL. YOU'LL SEE THAT PLAY OUT TO CREATE A DISTRICT THAT IS BEST FOR HIM. TO DO THAT YOU MAKE TWO GREAT REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS. YOU'RE GOING TO SEE INCUMBENTS GOING TO SAVE EACH OTHER AND THEMSELVES. THAT IS WHAT THEY DO AND IT GOES BY SENIORITY. I CAN GUARANTEE YOU RIGHT NOW THAT SENIOR REPUBLICANS IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO KNOW THEIR SEAT IS COMING OUT OF THERE. IT AIN'T THEIR SEAT THAT IS GOING TO DISAPPEAR. THEY'LL LOOK AROUND FOR THE LOW LYING FRUIT AND SAY YOU'RE THE NEWEST GUY SO WE'RE GOING TO EAT HIM UP. IT IS GOING TO BE A HUGE BATTLE AND I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE REAL -- IT WILL BE MORE DIFFICULT THAN EVER TO GET TRUE CONSENSUS. >> I DISAGREE ABOUT THE BEN RAY LUJAN THING. I THINK THAT SEAT, THAT DISTRICT IS PRETTY SAFE, EVEN IF THEY CHANGE IT AROUND A BIT. I LOVED THAT STEVE PEARCE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS SENT OUT A PLEA IN WHICH HE SAYS, THEY ARE GOING TO DISTRICT ME OUT, THEY ARE GOING TO REDISTRICT ME OUT. I THINK STEVE PEARCE'S SEAT IN

HIS DISTRICT IS TOTALLY SAFE FOR HIM. THE REAL PLUM HERE IS ALBUQUERQUE, RIO RANCHO. DISTRICT 1 IS THE ONE THAT IS GOING TO CREATE A LOT OF HEARTBURN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THEM AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL. >> ON REPRESENTATION, GIVEN WHAT DAN JUST SAID, LAURA, THE BASIC PREMISE, ONE NAME, ONE VOTE, EVERYONE IS REPRESENTED AND PACKING AND CRACKING ISSUE THAT THE PROFESSOR BROUGHT UP. YOU HAVE NATIVE REPRESENTATION, REALLY GLAD DAN BROUGHT THIS UP, IT WOULD BE A CRIME IT WOULD SEEM TO MOST FOLKS TO CRACK THOSE DISTRICTS AND HAVE THOSE KIND OF SPLITS WHERE THAT REPRESENTATION DOES NOT MEET THAT CRITERIA, ONE MAN, ONE VOTE REPRESENTATION THING. HOW DO YOU GET AROUND THAT WITHOUT GETTING INTO A COURTROOM? >> I DON'T THINK YOU DO WITHOUT GOING TO COURT. WE ARE A STATE THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PRECLEARANCE. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR NEIGHBORS TO THE WEST, ARIZONA REQUIRES, ALONG WITH MOST OF THE STATES IN THE SOUTH, REQUIRES ANY KIND OF REDISTRICTING, ANY KIND OF VOTING PLAN THAT THEY HAVE, THEY HAVE TO GET PRECLEARANCE FROM THE JUSTICE

DEPARTMENT BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A HISTORY OF VOTING RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR MOSTLY NOT BEING ALLOWED TO VOTE, BEING DISENFRANCHISED. SO WE'RE NOT A STATE THAT HAS TO GET PRECLEARANCE, BUT IF WE DRAW LINES THAT BASICALLY MEAN THAT PEOPLE VOTES ARE DILUTED, THEN WE COULD BE ONE OF THOSE STATES SUBJECT EVERY SINGLE TIME TO PRECLEARANCE FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. THAT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE A BAD THING. THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM GOING TO COURT EVERY SINGLE TIME. THAT MEANS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS TO TAKE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME TO REVIEW WHATEVER PLAN YOU HAVE. PERHAPS THAT IS AN OPTION. >> GOING TO HOLD YOU THERE, DAN. WE ARE SHORT ON TIME, BUT STAY WITH US AT KNME, WE'RE GOING TO FOLLOW THIS ONE REAL CLOSELY. NEW SUBJECT: THE LONG-STANDING DEBATE IN THE ALBUQUERQUE METRO AREA, SHOULD THE DUKE CITY CONTINUE TO KEEP GROWING, OR STAY THE QUAINT, QUIRKY, EVERYTHING THAT IS FAMILIAR THAT WE KNOW. THE NUMBERS MAY HAVE THE FINAL SAY IN THAT DEBATE. ACCORDING TO A NEW PROGRAM DEVELOPED BY THE GROUP, BUSINESS FIRST, ALBUQUERQUE IS LESS THAN 100,000 PEOPLE AWAY FROM REACHING ONE MILLION RESIDENTS.

LAURA, INTERESTING. I AM SO GLAD WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS. THIS IS A FASCINATING SUBJECT TO ME. WE SHOULD BE CLEAR, NOT JUST ALBUQUERQUE CITY LIMITS. METRO MEANS A MUCH BIGGER SWATH. WHAT HAPPENS IN OUR SELF-PERCEPTION ONCE WE CROSS A THRESHOLD LIKE THIS. >> YOU KNOW, FOR ONE, I WILL ADDRESS THE DO WE REMAIN QUIRKY? WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO BE QUIRKY. IT IS IN OUR NAME, REALLY. ALBUQUIRKY, BUT I DO THINK THERE IS SOMETHING THAT COMES WITH PASSING THAT THRESHOLD, REACHING THAT ONE MILLION MARK. THAT YOU'RE SUDDENLY, YOU FEEL LIKE YOU MADE IT TO THE BIG PERSONS TABLE. YOU'RE SORT OF THE -- YOU'RE AT THE STARTING BLOCK NOW. NOT NECESSARILY IN THE BACK WAITING FOR YOUR SERVING TO COME THROUGH. BUT I THINK, IN A SELF-PERCEPTION WAY, IT IS GOOD. ON THE OTHER HAND, WE ALSO START TO HAVE TO CONSIDER THE BIG CITY PROBLEMS THAT A LOT OF BIGGER CITIES HAVE. WE HAVE MASSIVE PROBLEMS WITH TRANSPORTATION. IF WE HAD A BETTER PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM, IT COULD ADDRESS A LOT OF THE GAS PRICES, INCREASING COSTS, A

LOT OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE WITH CONGESTION AND SO FORTH. >> DRINKING AND DRIVING. >> TECHNICALLY WE HAVE COME A LONG WAY IN THE LAST 10 YEARS OR SO. BUT, I DO THINK THERE IS A LOT THAT COMES WITH JUST SORT OF OUR SENSE OF METROPOLITAN AREA AND WITH THAT, THOUGH, WILL COME SHIFTS IN PERCEPTION AT THE LEGISLATURE. IT HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, AS WE HAVE SPOKEN BEFORE, A LOT OF LEGISLATORS COME FROM THE RURAL AREAS. WE HAVE HAD THE SITUATION WHERE MANY OF THEM ARE CONCENTRATED FROM THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OF THE STATE. REGARDLESS OF PARTY, IF ALL THE LEGISLATORS OF THE METRO AREA BANDED TOGETHER, YOU WOULD SEE VERY DIFFERENT LEGISLATION COME THROUGH MUCH LIKE YOU SEE IN OTHER STATES LIKE PHOENIX WHERE THEY HAVE SO MANY REPRESENTATIVES THERE, IT REALLY OUTNUMBERS THE REST OF THE STATE. YOU HAVE METRO AREA AND AN OUT COUNTY DYNAMIC THERE THAT WE DON'T SEE HERE AS MUCH. >> INTERESTING. DENNIS, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN HERE? >> 25 YEARS. >> WE'RE PRETTY CLOSE. YOU THINK BACK TO THE CITY IT WAS 25 YEARS AGO AND OUR GROWTH PATTERN, HAVE WE GROWN IN A WAY THAT CAN ACCOMMODATE

MORE GROWTH, I GUESS IS MY QUESTION? HAVE WE PUT THE PIECES IN PLACE DURING RESPECTIVE TERMS GOING BACK NOW, YOU KNOW, CHAVEZ, ONE, TWO, THREE. ARE WE READY TO BE A MILLION PLUS HERE? >> WE'RE ALMOST THERE, SO THE ANSWER IS YES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIO RANCHO, LOS LUNAS, BELEN, SO, YEAH, THE ONLY WAY THAT THE CITY IS GOING TO GROW IS ON THE WESTSIDE OUT TO THE RIO PUERCO, WHICH I THINK PERSONALLY WOULD BE A DISASTER TO SEE THAT MUCH OPEN LAND CONSUMED. BUT, PEOPLE OUT HERE LIKE THEIR SINGLE FAMILY HOMES AND THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT. SO, I DON'T THINK WE CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. A MILLION IS NOT THAT BIG. ALBUQUERQUE IS MUCH, IN MY OPINION, MUCH THE SAME PLACE AS IT WAS WHEN I GOT HERE 25 YEARS AGO. I HAVEN'T SEEN, ASIDE FROM MORE HOUSES, I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT MUCH CHANGE. I THINK IT IS A GOOD THING THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE TO BREAK UP THE SMALL TOWN MENTALITY WHERE EVERYBODY GIVES EACH OTHER AWARDS, WHERE EVERYBODY PATS EACH OTHER ON THE BACK,

WHERE THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IS CONTROLLED BY THREE PEOPLE. IT IS A GOOD THING. >> SOPHIE, LET ME DOWEL DOWN ON THE DEMOGRAPHICS. FOR YOUNGER, PEOPLE, SORRY FOR THE EXAGGERATION. RECENTLY, I HEARD FRUSTRATION THAT, LOOK, WE HAVE SOME OF THIS GOOD STUFF OF A BIGGER CITY BUT NOT ENOUGH TO SUIT ME AS A YOUNGER PERSON, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. THEY CAST OUT AND LOOK AT WHAT OTHER CITIES ARE DOING, THEY WANT COOL THINGS HAPPENING NOW. >> THAT IS ALWAYS A CHALLENGE IN A GROWING ENVIRONMENT. WHICH IS GOING TO COME FIRST, BOOM IN YOUNG PEOPLE, OR THE SERVICES TO ADDRESS THEIR NEEDS. I DO WANT TO SAY THIS ONE THING. I SORT OF IMAGINE THE FOLKS WHO WATCH THE SHOW WHO DO NOT LIVE IN ALBUQUERQUE, THINKING, A MILLION PEOPLE, WE DO NOT GET TO THINK OF OURSELVES AND HAVEN'T FOR A LONG TIME BEEN ABLE TO THINK OF OURSELVES AS SMALL, AS QUIRKY. I MEAN WHEN I THINK OF QUIRKY I ALSO DO THINK OF OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE WHERE WE HAVE MUCH SMALLER COMMUNITIES THAT

HAVE INCREDIBLE CHARACTER. I MEAN, I DON'T SEE US BECOMING BLAND LAND. I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO WAKE UP AND BE SCOTTSDALE BUT I DO THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE SOME GROWING PAINS AS WE CONTINUE TO EXPAND AND TO DENNIS' POINT ABOUT COMMUNITY PLANNING AND CITY PLANNING, LAURA'S POINT ABOUT TRANSPORTATION, WE HAVE SOME BIG QUESTIONS WE NEED TO ADDRESS AS WE CONTINUE TO EXPAND, WHERE WE'LL EXPAND AND WHERE THE RESOURCES WILL COME FROM. >> WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS? >> IT IS A GOOD THING. IT GETS US IN LINE WITH THE DALLAS'S AND PHOENIX'S AND DENVER'S THAT WE SEEM TO BE COMPETING WITH ALL THE TIME. I THINK, THOUGH, I DON'T MEAN THIS TO SOUND LIKE A POLITICIAN, BUT I DON'T THINK WE'LL GROW AND LOSE THE PERSONALITY. I THINK THE PERSONALITY OF ALBUQUERQUE IS THE SAME TODAY IN A LOT OF RESPECTS AS IT WAS 25, 30, 40 YEARS AGO. YOU STILL HAVE BARELAS COFFEE HOUSE, THE RESTAURANTS, MOM AND POP OWNED, YOU REAL -- YOU GO OUT ON FRIDAY NIGHT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO THESE NATIONAL CHAINS.

YOU'RE GOING TO LOCAL FAMILY RESTAURANTS THAT HAVE BEEN HERE FOREVER, WHETHER IT IS MOM'S KITCHEN DOWN BY THE AIRPORT TO GET WHATEVER THAT THING IS WITH THE BURRITO AND THE FRENCH FRIES. THERE IS SO MANY THINGS AND WE STILL HAVE -- GRANDMA'S K & I DINER. WE HAVE THE QUAINTNESS. >> I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN PAST OUTBACK ON A FRIDAY NIGHT. >> I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE BEEN BY THE ITALIAN RESTAURANTS THAT ARE LOCAL RESTAURANTS. >> I HAVE TO WRAP UP ON THAT NOTE, K & I DINER. THIS PAST WEEKEND WAS INDEPENDENCE DAY HOLIDAY AND WE MADE IT A TRADITION HERE ON THE SHOW TO MARK THE FOURTH BY DISCUSSING THE IDEA OF PATRIOTISM IN TODAY'S SOCIETY. AS USUAL THERE IS PLENTY TO TALK ABOUT FROM, I DON'T KNOW, NANCY PELOSI BRINGING PATRIOTISM INTO THE DEBATE OVER TAX CUTS, TO NBC SPORTS CAUSING EVERYBODY TO REVOLT BY DELETING PART OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM FOR A VIDEO PIECE THAT WAS PLAYED DURING THE U.S. OPEN. EVERYONE IS A PATRIOT IN THEIR OWN WAY. I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE TO THAT, BUT IS THERE SOME KIND OF ODD OVERRIDING SENSE THAT IF YOU'RE NOT A PATRIOT MY

WAY, YOU'RE NOT A PATRIOT? WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THIS? >> ACTUALLY, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY. BACK IN THE 1880'S, MARK TWAIN, I THINK LATER THAN THAT, SAID -- HE WAS TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL SPEECH AND HE SAYS, WE ALL KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS CRAZY. MOST PEOPLE WE UNDERSTAND THAT THEY CAN DO TWO AND TWO IS FOUR, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. THE MINUTE WE UNDERSTAND, WE KNOW THEY ARE INSANE, IS WHEN THEY DISAGREE WITH US POLITICALLY. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY. AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT HAS INTENSIFIED IN THE PAST DECADE. I WISH IT WASN'T THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, I WISH WE COULD -- I THINK FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS PATRIOTIC; BEING RESPONSIBLE IS PATRIOTIC; BEING TOLERANT OF OTHER PEOPLES' VIEWS IS PATRIOTIC, BUT WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY. >> SURE. I LOVE THE SEGUE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS. DENNIS, I HAVE BEEN WATCHING JOHN ADAMS RIGHT NOW OVER THE JULY FOURTH, OVER THE WEEKEND, AND IT IS INTERESTING, DENNIS

IS RIGHT, THESE GUYS SCRAPPED BACK THEN, RIGHT? PATRIOTISM WAS BRINGING ALL OF YOUR PASSION TO YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM AND HAVING IT OUT. WE'RE DOING THE SAME THING TODAY. IS THIS SO BAD? WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UPSET ABOUT THE LEVEL OF DISCOURSE IN OUR COUNTRY? EVERYONE IS A PATRIOT. >> I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE ARE UPSET. I THINK PEOPLE ARE UPSET. IT ONLY SEEMS AROUND CERTAIN TIMES OF THE YEAR WE REMEMBER THOSE SERVING. IT IS AN HONORABLE PROFESSION TO SERVE AND PROTECT OUR COUNTRY, YET SOMETIMES WE DON'T REMEMBER THAT. AND I THINK SOMETIMES PEOPLE GET A LITTLE TOUCHY WHEN YOU PUT THOSE RIGHTS OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS -- YOU KNOW, I DO BELIEVE, AND I MAY BE DISAGREED WITH AT THE TABLE, BUT I DO BELIEVE THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE A CHOICE TO SERVE OUR COUNTRY, HAVE A LITTLE HIGHER RIGHT THAN THE REST OF US. THESE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO GO OUT AND SAY THEY WANT TO PROTEST FUNERALS OF THESE GUYS THAT HAVE DIED. FREE SPEECH IS IMPORTANT BUT THERE COMES A TIME WHEN SOMEONE HAS TO SAY, YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO STAND ACROSS FROM A FUNERAL AND TELL SOMEBODY'S PARENTS THAT BECAUSE OF HOMOSEXUALITY YOUR CHILD DIED IN AFGHANISTAN. I THINK THAT THERE IS PROBLEMS

WITH THAT. I THINK IT IS MORE TOUCHY NOW BECAUSE WE ARE IN SO MUCH CONFLICT TODAY AROUND THE WORLD, AND A LOT OF GUYS WHO FOUGHT IN VIETNAM, THEY DIDN'T GET THE WELCOME HOME THAT THE GUYS ARE GETTING TODAY AND IT BRINGS BACK MEMORIES AND THEY GET A LITTLE MORE EXCITED AT TIMES WHEN THEY SEE ANYTHING GO ASTRAY THAT IS GOING TO LEAD US TOWARDS THE CLIMATE THAT THERE WAS THERE WHEN THEY WERE DEFENDING OUR COUNTRY IN A WAR. I THINK PATRIOTISM IS IMPORTANT BUT I THINK WE SHOULD REMEMBER PATRIOTS SERVE 365 DAYS A YEAR, NOT JUST JULY 4. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT IDEA? WE CAN FIGHT. WE CAN ARGUE. WE CAN HAVE A ROW IN THIS COUNTRY BUT WE ARE STILL PATRIOTS. WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO BE SHUNTED ASIDE FOR SOME REASON, SOMETIMES. >> YOU KNOW, I WANT TO SAY ONE THING ABOUT THE GOLF, U.S. GOLF ISSUE. I THOUGHT THAT WAS RIDICULOUS AND WE HAVEN'T FULLY ADDRESSED IT HERE, BUT I THINK TAKING SOME SORT OF ACTION TO EDIT THE NATIONAL ANTHEM TO REMOVE CERTAIN WORDS, LIKE "UNDER GOD," WAS A RIDICULOUS MOVE ON THE PART OF NBC AND THEY

SHOULD BE DINGED FOR IT. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T BE TOLERATED. IT IS WHAT IT IS AND YOU REFLECT THAT AS PART OF YOUR PROGRAMMING. SO, YOU KNOW, I AGREE WITH DAN AS FAR AS THE PROTESTING AT FUNERALS AND I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE REMEMBER THOSE WHO DIED FOR OUR RIGHTS AND WE CONTINUE TO CELEBRATE THEM ON THE FOURTH OF JULY BUT WE'LL ALSO HAVE SEPTEMBER 11 COMING UP WHICH IS GOING TO BE A HUGE PATRIOTIC DAY AS WELL. BUT ONE THING TO ME THAT I HOPE IS PART AT LEAST OF THE REFLECTION ON WHAT IT MEANS TO CELEBRATE INDEPENDENCE DAY ARE, I GUESS, AT THE TIME OF TAPING THE SHOW, THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE REFLECTED ON, THE FACT THAT WE ARE A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS AND THESE DAYS LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMY, SCARCITY OF JOBS, PEOPLE ARE QUICK TO WANT TO BLAME OTHERS, EVEN FOR FOREST FIRES THAT ARE STARTED, BLAMING IMMIGRANTS FOR EVERY SINGLE AILMENT WE HAVE. AND THAT IS UNFAIR. WE ARE A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS AND HAVE TO ADDRESS THE IMMIGRANT PROBLEM BUT WE DON'T

HAVE TO HATE UPON SO MANY IMMIGRANTS. WE REALLY ALL ARE IMMIGRANTS. >> I THINK THERE IS A TENDENCY, PROBABLY NATIONAL TENDENCY, TO SORT OF CHERRY PICK WHAT WE THINK PATRIOTISM LOOKS LIKE AND WHICH ARE THE FAVORITES OF THE FIRST 10 AMENDMENT. I PRIDE SECOND OVER EVERYTHING ELSE, I PRIDE FIRST OVER EVERYTHING ELSE. AND, I AM REMINDED RIGHT NOW OF A PIECE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE THAT I WISH HAD GONE FURTHER IN WHICH THE FORMER EDITOR OF THE NEWSPAPER SAYS, YOU KNOW, TO ATTACK JOURNALISTS AND SAY YOU'RE NOT BEING PATRIOTIC OR ATTACK POLITICIANS AND SAY YOU'RE NOT BEING PATRIOTIC, AND INSTEAD SAYING, THIS WAS A STATEMENT BY SARAH PALIN, IT IS ONLY OUR SOLDIERS WHO ARE PATRIOTIC. TRULY GREAT INVESTIGATIVE POLITICAL JOURNALISM IS HIGH PATRIOTISM. MAKING TOUGH, TOUGH DECISIONS ON THE PART OF THE ELECTORATE, REPRESENTING THE ELECTORATE IS HIGHLY PATRIOTIC.

WE ALL ALSO PARTICIPATE IN PATRIOTISM ON A REGULAR BASIS AND TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I AM ONLY GOING TO FOCUS ON ONE ASPECT, I THINK, IGNORES THE INCREDIBLE DIVERSITY, TO LAURA'S POINT, OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION AND HOW WE EACH PARTICIPATE IN OUR COUNTRY'S LIFE. >> WELL DONE. WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE LINE PANELISTS AS THEY GO ON THE CLOCK TO TALK ABOUT OTHER OF THE WEEKS STORIES. >> ON DECK THIS WEEK, JOB CREATION OR THE LACK THEREOF IN NEW MEXICO AND THE BATTLE OVER VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES BEFORE THE HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND. >> UP FIRST IT IS TIME ONCE AGAIN TO PUT THE SPOTLIGHT ON THE ART IN NEW MEXICO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES THIS STATE SO GREAT. IN OUR LATEST "ARTISODE", WE INTRODUCE YOU, OR REINTRODUCE YOU, AS THE CASE MAY BE, TO ONE OF THE STATES MOST FAVORITE AUTHORS, JOHN NICHOLS. >> I NEVER MET A WRITER I DIDN'T LIKE. I NEVER MET A BOOK I DIDN'T LIKE. FLAUBERT IS CREDITED WITH SAYING, I THINK, THIS IS A PARAPHRASE, THAT A WRITER MUST

KNOW EVERYTHING. >> HITLER INVADES EUROPE, AND 60 MILLION PEOPLE DIE OR A GOOD STORY IS A LIFE CYCLE OF THE DRAGONFLY. IT IS A LONG RANGE. I MEAN, ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN ENOUGH TO REALLY TRY AND TELL ABOUT IT, FROM WHATEVER ANGLE, IS A GOOD STORY. I LIKE TELLING STORIES AND I HAVE NEVER WANTED TO KEEP REPEATING MYSELF. ♪♪ GONNA TAKE YOU PRETTY NOVEL ♪♪ ♪♪ AND STRETCH YOU ACROSS MY BIG BRASS BED ♪♪ >> PEOPLE SAID AFTER THE MILAGRO BEAN FIELD WARS, JOHN, WRITE THE SON OF MILAGRO BEAN FIELD WARS. WRITE MILAGRO BEAN FIELD MEETS ABBOT AND COSTELLO. YOU HAVE A GOOD THING GOING

HERE. GO WITH IT. AND I HAD NO DESIRE AT ALL TO REPEAT IT. ♪♪ TICKLE YOUR TOES UNTIL THEY TURN CHERRY RED ♪♪ >> I WAS JUST INTERESTED IN TRYING TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS, SOLVE DIFFERENT PROBLEMS. PEOPLE SAY, WELL, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, JOHN? YOU KNOW, YOU WROTE THE NEW MEXICO TRILOGY WHICH IS A BIG THICK PANORAMIC BOOK, AND THEN YOU START WRITING THESE LITTLE PISSANT STUPID NOVELS. I SAY, HEY, THE PISSANT STUPID NOVELS ARE PART OF THE OVERALL THING. THEY INTEREST ME. THEY ARE ANOTHER LITTLE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE AND I SUPPOSE WHEN I FINISH MY WRITING CAREER, THAT I WILL HAVE PUT TOGETHER ALL OF THE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE AND ALTOGETHER THAT WILL BE HOW I VIEWED LIFE. ♪♪ YOU HAVE BEEN A HARD-HEARTED NOVEL ♪♪ ♪♪ OH, YOU TREATED ME SO DARN UNKIND ♪♪ >> AND, OBVIOUSLY, I AM IN

LOVE WITH THE ART. I LIKE WORDS. I LIKE LANGUAGE. I LIKE SLANG. I LIKE DIFFERENT CULTURES. I READ AN AWFUL LOT. I READ AND READ AND READ. ♪♪ IF YOU DON'T QUIT IT NOW, YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ME LOSE MY MIND ♪♪ >> I HAVE READ "BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S" 100 TIMES IN MY LIFE. I READ IT TO SEE HOW DID HE CONSTRUCT THAT BOOK. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A PERFECT LITTLE BOOK TO ME. AND I KEEP TRYING TO TEACH MYSELF HOW HE DID IT OR HOW OTHER WRITERS DO IT. SOMETIMES, I JUST PICK BOOKS OUT OF THE BOOK CASE, AND I MAKE LISTS OF VOCABULARY WORDS. I WILL WRITE A FIRST DRAFT WHICH IS JUST BIG BRUSH STROKES, AND THEN I JUST INSERT WORDS ONE BY ONE BY ONE BY ONE. I RESTRUCTURE EVERY SENTENCE, ONE BY ONE BY ONE, JUST

LABORIOUSLY. OVER MONTHS. FOR ME IT IS PRETTY CHAOTIC. THE ONE STEADY THING IS THAT I JUST DO IT ON A DAILY BASIS. I THROW OUT 3/4 OF WHAT I WRITE. AND I REWRITE EVERYTHING ELSE 100 TIMES OR 1000 TIMES. IT IS RELENTLESS, YOU KNOW. I HAVE A TENDENCY TO DO FIRST DRAFTS JUST DAY IN AND DAY OUT, DAY IN AND DAY OUT, EVERYDAY, IN ORDER TO GET LIKE, LET'S SAY, A 400-PAGE FIRST DRAFT AND THEN I'LL SPEND SIX YEARS REWRITING THOSE PAGES. >> WE'RE BACK HERE AT THE LINE ROUNDTABLE TO END THE SHOW WITH A FLURRY OF DEBATE AND DISCUSSION OTHERWISE KNOWN AS "ON THE CLOCK." THE U.S. SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED A NEW MEXICO MAN'S DRUNK DRIVING CONVICTION. THE REASON THE HIGH COURT SAID

IT WASN'T RIGHT THAT THE TECHNICIAN THAT ANALYZED HIS BLOOD ALCOHOL TEST DID NOT TESTIFY DURING THE TRIAL. THE JUSTICES RULED IT WAS NOT FAIR FOR THE PROSECUTORS TO SIMPLY SUBMIT THAT TEST AS A BUSINESS RECORD. LAURA, HOW DAMAGING COULD THIS BE TO DWI PROSECUTIONS DOWN THE ROAD? >> IT IS GOING TO MEAN THEY HAVE TO BE MUCH MORE THOROUGH. I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS NECESSARILY DAMAGES BUT YOU HAVE TO PRESENT THAT PERSON TO BE ABLE TO BE CROSS-EXAMINED AND I THINK THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH OUR RIGHT TO CONFRONT OUR ACCUSER. >> FAIR ENOUGH. DO WE HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE TO SPARE TO GO TO ALL THE COURT CASES? >> I AM SURE WE DO. MAYBE NOW WE WILL GET PEOPLE CONVICTED AFTER THEIR 19TH DWI INSTEAD OF THEIR 20TH. >> GREAT RULING. I HAVE SAT IN SO MANY CRIMINAL TRIALS AND LISTENED TO THE SO-CALLED EXPERTS VIEW OF THINGS, AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO CONFRONT THEM. >> THE LAW, AS LAURA STATED, THERE IS A BASIC THING HERE ABOUT BEING ABLE TO QUESTION YOUR ACCUSER. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE? >> I THINK IT DOES MAKE SENSE AND WE NEED TO REMEMBER, LIKE,

IT HAPPENS THIS IS A NEW MEXICO CASE, IT HAPPENS THAT DWI IS VERY MUCH ON OUR RADAR BUT THIS AFFECTS NOT JUST OUR STATE BUT AFFECTS MANY STATES. THIS IS A LARGER RULING ABOUT EVIDENCE AND YOUR ABILITY, AS LAURA SAID, TO CONFRONT YOUR ACCUSER. >> INTERESTING. THE SUPREME COURT ALSO RULED RECENTLY IT IS NOT LEGAL TO BAN THE SALE OR RENTAL OF VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES TO CHILDREN. DANIEL, ANOTHER VICTORY FOR PERSONAL LIBERTY AS SOME WOULD SAY OR TURNING A BLIND EYE TO A PROBLEM AS SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT. >> I MEAN, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS YOUNG KIDS, I CAN TELL YOU, MY 12 YEAR OLD IS DIFFERENT AFTER HE PLAYS AN HOUR OF "CALL TO DUTY" THAN BEFORE HE PLAYS AN HOUR OF "CALL TO DUTY" SO IT IS INTERESTING. NOW WE CAN'T SELL VIDEO GAMES BUT FOR A LONG TIME WE COULDN'T SELL RECORDS TO PEOPLE THAT WERE UNDER THE AGE OF 18 IF IT HAD TWO LIVE CREW. MY MOM HAD TO BUY MY TWO LIVE CREW ALBUM BECAUSE I WAS UNDER THE AGE OF 18. YEAH. SO, YOU LOOK AT THIS NOW, YOU SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, WE DON'T LET KIDS GO INTO ADULT MOVIES

AND DON'T LET KIDS RENT THEM. WHY DO WE LET -- I JUST WONDER IF THEY HAVE LOOKED AT THESE VIDEOS. I HAVE SEEN "CALL TO DUTY." I HAVE SEEN, WHAT IS IT, THE CAR CHASE ONE WHERE THEY MEET THE PROSTITUTE AND KILL PEOPLE. THERE IS SOME PRETTY EXPLICIT STUFF IN THESE MOVIES. >> I THINK THIS IS THE RIGHT DECISION FOR MAKING SURE PARENTAL GUIDANCE. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PARENTS HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER WHAT KIDS DO AND NOT THE STATE. IN TERMS OF LIBERTY IT WAS A VERY GOOD DECISION. >> THE JOBS OUTLOOK CONTINUES TO BE BLEAK HERE IN NEW MEXICO. IN FACT, A NEW STUDY FINDS THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT RANKS DEAD LAST IN TERMS OF JOB GROWTH. WE LOST MORE THAN 60,000 JOBS BETWEEN MAY OF THIS YEAR AND LAST. DENNIS, WOW, 31ST STRAIGHT MONTH WITH NEGATIVE JOB GROWTH. WHAT DO WE TAKE FROM THIS? >> YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO TAKE, ONE, THE STATE HAS BEEN IN SEVERE RECESSION AND LASTED LONGER THAN ANYBODY IMAGINED. WE STARTED LATER BUT LASTED

LONGER. IT IS GOING TO GET WORSE. NEW MEXICO IS FIFTH IN PER CAPITA FEDERAL PER CAPITA SPENDING. 2009 SPENT 27.4 BILLION. THEY ARE GOING TO BE CUTTING BACK. ALL WE HAVE HERE IS GOVERNMENT. 23%, 24% OF THE EMPLOYEES IN THE STATE ARE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES. IT IS GOING TO GET WORSE. >> ONE OF THE ISSUES TO REMEMBER AS WELL IS A LOT OF THE JOBS THAT WERE LOST AND ARE APPARENTLY NOT COMING BACK ARE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY JOBS AND THAT SHOULD BE SURPRISING TO NO ONE WHO WAS PAYING ATTENTION DURING THE WHOLE BURSTING OF THE REAL ESTATE BUBBLE AND SLOW DOWN OF THE NEW CONSTRUCTION IN THE STATE. WE'RE SEEING DISPROPORTIONATE EFFECTS ON MEN WHO DO NOT HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES WHO ARE WORKING IN CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY AND LABOR RELATED INDUSTRIES AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT BECAUSE THAT SECTOR DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT IS GOING TO COME BACK. >> MORE FRIGHTENING FOR THOSE WITHOUT EVEN A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA. IT IS TOUGH. >> I'LL SAY REAL QUICK, ALL THOSE CONSTRUCTION JOBS ARE PERFECT RETOOLING FOR PEOPLE

IN THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY INDUSTRY IN TERMS OF RETROFITTING. >> HOW ABOUT MOVIES? >> THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH. >> DON'T FORGET WE LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU, THE AUDIENCE, YOU CAN ALWAYS DROP US A LINE ABOUT ANY OF THE TOPICS WE TALKED ABOUT HERE ON THE SHOW. THE NUMBER TO CALL IS 277-1246, OR SHOOT US AN E-MAIL AT INFOCUS@KNME.ORG.