Report from Santa Fe; Anne Hillerman

The National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by a grant from the Healey Foundation, Taos, New Mexico. Hello, I'm Lorraine Mills, and welcome to Report from Santa Fe. Our guest today is rapidly becoming an iconic New Mexico writer, Ann Hillerman. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for inviting me, Lorraine, and thank you for all you do for the arts in New Mexico. I think your program is really important to all of us writers, artists, musicians, et cetera. Well, thank you so much. It's true. And we're so blessed in the environment we both work in, my God, where there's so many amazingly creative people doing wonderful, wonderful things.

But you've been doing wonderful things. First of all, you chose your parentage very well. Tell me a little about your father, Tony Hillerman, and then some of your other journalistic things that you were doing before you started reviving his characters. Oh, I'd be glad to. Well, my father was Tony Hillerman. Tony is best known for the 18 Jim Chi Joe Leaporn mysteries that he wrote. But before that, and actually while he was writing, he taught at the University of New Mexico. He taught journalism and actually brought up a number of fine journalists who worked hard in the 70s, 80s, 90s, probably even some still around today. He and my mom moved to Santa Fe in the 1950s, and I came with them because I was their baby girl. So I grew up partly in Santa Fe, and then in 1963, my dad got a job with the University of New Mexico.

So our family moved down there. I went to high school down there and to UNM. And then I was lucky enough, when I graduated from college, the legislature was having a special 60 day session. I was working, my degree was in journalism. I was working for one of the wire services, and they needed a hired hand for cheap, so as college kids were the perfect ones. So I did that during the session, and then the editor of the Santa Fe, New Mexico had seen my work, and he hired me, and I worked for the New Mexican, and then for the Albuquerque journal for about 20 years. And then I, as partly as I was also was a journalist, and then afterwards, I started writing nonfiction books, and I did several nonfiction books. And then when my father died, I, after I got over the worst of missing my dad, I realized I was missing his wonderful stories, too. So I decided that I would see if I could write a novel, and my first novel, Spider Woman's Daughter, came out in 2013.

I just want to, we'll come back to all three of your brunette, Manuelito books, but one of my favorite of your nonfiction, you did with your husband, Don Strell, who is a wonderful photographer. This is Tony Hill, and Ms. Landscape, on the road with Chi and Leaporn. And what you did, and this tells what you did, and I must tell our audience, the photographs in here are stunning. They are. I wish everybody had 58-inch screens, and we could just show all those photos. I had been doing some writers' workshops and an annual conference. And as part of that conference, we would ask some well-known New Mexico author to speak. And one year we asked Michael McGarretty. And Michael, of course, writes about Southern New Mexico, land near the boot heel. And he was going to talk about the importance of place in his books. So my husband, Don Strell, said, what if I do pictures of the scenery that you write about? And so Don did that, Michael did his talk, and my father was in the audience.

And he loved the idea of combining the words in the pictures. So based on his enthusiasm, Don and I got the idea that we should do a book based on the places that my dad wrote. So I read all of his 18 novels, that time, probably like everyone. The first time I read them, I read them for the story. Oh, yes, he raced through them. Right, he raced through them. This time I read them, I was looking for those wonderful descriptions, where Joe Leapord has to pull off the side of the road, because the sunset is so magnificent, he can't drive and watch it at the same time. So anyway, that book came out, and right before it came out, my father died. And so the publisher sit, Don and me, on a book tour, like they often do. And I would talk about that book, and then I would ask if people had any questions. And inevitably one of the questions would be, so did your dad have any more novels about Jim Chi and Joe Leapord?

And I'd have to say no, he really took care of business before he died. And so then the person asking the question would look so disappointed. And he or she would say, oh, I'm going to have to go back and read all of those books again. And I felt like those characters were part of my family. So that book, although I didn't realize it at the time, really was kind of the stepping off point for me to make the transition from being a journalist and a nonfiction writer to writing mysteries. And I think what you said about place, New Mexico is actually a character in New Mexico and an Indian country, Arizona, is actually a character in your father's books and in your books, too. And so one of the other things that you and your husband Don did, tell me about the road scholars. And you have a map here, Tony Hillam is Landscape, Southwest Map and Guide, so that people can, it would be better to go with you, but they could strike out on their own, guided by this map.

That's right. That's right. The people who did that map, actually now the University of New Mexico press is putting out that map. But when Don and I were working, it was a couple who lived out in El Dorado, a mom and pop entrepreneurial business. And so we worked with them on that map. They used some of Don's photos and tried to establish the places where Dad had set his books and where most of my books were set, too. So it was really a good experience for me to do that. And the road scholar, Don and I went with them for about three years. They did a bus tour based on the Tony Hillam and Landscape book. And that, again, was wonderful preparation for writing novels about Navajo Country. Yes. Well, so you were missing your dad grieving, of course. And then you were missing Chi and Leaporn as favorite uncles you'd grown up with for 30 years, you know? Yeah, that's exactly right. And so your first book, which really exploded on the literary scene, was called Spider Woman's Daughter.

And you had elevated a minor character, Bernadette Manuelito, to be the star. But I was so taken by the depth and the extent of your metaphor of Spider Woman's Daughter. The hero is a descendant of weavers. But you are a Spider Woman's Daughter because you weave a tapestry of these beloved characters and contemporary social issues and history and suspense. You carry this tradition, even though you're not a weaver of textile, you are a weaver of words. And so tell us a little about what it was like to finally step into your dad's gigantic shoes and continue giving life to these beloved characters. Well, it was both a challenge and a labor of love. When I first had the idea of continuing the series, I thought, one reason I have to do this is that dad had this wonderful minor character who, if the series ended with his death, would be forever trapped as kind of a, oh, in basically the typical women's role

of the one who brings the coffee, the one who drives her husband around when he has a broken foot. And dad had done a pretty good job of bringing her up through the ranks of law enforcement. But he stopped short of actually having her be a crime solver. So and really in retrospect, I'm glad he did because it gave me a wonderful opportunity to continue the series with basically a new character and to give it my own voice. So when I had the idea, first I asked my mother because she was my dad's first editor, his biggest fan. And she probably felt like those characters were her children. So I thought I don't want to do anything that's going to upset her, but she was all for it. So I worked on it for a while. I had a fairly decent draft. And then I thought I'd better find out if there are any, going to be any problems with my dad's publisher, if I decide to go all the way and turn this manuscript into a novel. So luckily for me, my dad's editor was still working for Harper Collins.

And she was delighted with the idea. And she said, no, there's no legal problem with any of the characters. And then she said, when you're done, I would be glad to take a look at the manuscript, which are magic words to anybody writing a first novel. Yes. And you had to be true to your dad's books and characters and yet give it your own voice. Which I think you did know. The second one is called Rock with Wings. It takes place in Shiprock, the Shiprock area. And it's very well crafted. But we are here to celebrate today. And I love these covers, by the way. You're a new book, the third Bernadette Manimulito book, and the twenty is first Lee and Cheap Hornbird. That's right. Yes. That's right. The song of the lion. And I just really have to hand it to you. She Bernadette really comes into her own in this. So we can't, this is what's so hard about a mystery. We can't give away the ending.

We can't, I can't even talk to you about my favorite scenes. And we really can't talk even much about the story because we want people to go out and rush to buy it and read it for, or get it at the library and read it for themselves. Well, we can talk about the settings, I think. Yes. Well, let's talk about some of the issues. But I want to talk about the deeply spiritual nature of this book because a mountain lion is an icon in the panoply of the Navajo and there's special protective rule as a deity, a minor, you know. There's a very deep spiritual sense in this book that you kind of hinted at before. So let's talk, you draw upon contemporary issues, we'll talk about that. Your father's readers always said, but we learned so much. We learned so much about Navajo life and we learned so much about New Mexico when we read these books. So it's my mystery, but it's also a history. And the way you treat cultural and social issues is really profound. So I don't know where to start, let's talk about the lion, who, why is there a lion in

this book? Well, the basic premise of the book is a mediation to help resolve the many sticky, prickly, complicated issues around the idea that someday there might be a development at the Grand Canyon on Navajo land. Sponsored, of course, by big money coming in from the outside. So the book, a lot of the action at the book takes place during a mediation. And because of that, and because of having it, I have to do with the Grand Canyon, I was able to bring in a lot of the tribes that live around the Grand Canyon, who would be affected by development. So it's the Hopi, the Zuni, and of course the Navajo, the Wallapai, the Havasupai. So it was really a joy to do that and to research some of their stories that have to do with the Grand Canyon.

The mountain lion was one of the protectors, when the holy people were setting up Dineta, the sacred land of the Navajos. The mountain lion was one of the protectors who went with one of the holy people to, I believe it was to Mount Taylor to be a guardian. So Bernie in this book comes across a lot of tricky situations. So I was, and I didn't think this is at first, but as the story developed, it, I guess, Bernie herself told me that it would be nice for her to have a protector. So there's a tradition among the Navajo and particularly among the Zuni of fetishes, which kind of symbolize the, I guess, in a way you could say they're like a St. Christopher metal that aura scapula that Christians, that Catholics and other Christians might wear. So anyway, the native people would have the symbol of this protector and they would keep it with them to kind of remind them of the power of that animal that would be with them when they got into difficult situations.

We are speaking today with Anne Hellerman about her new book, The Song of the Lion. I was intrigued because I didn't follow the news and there was actually something called the Grand Canyon Escalade, a real resort development. I don't know where it stands now, but it was kind of surprising for me to read that what they wanted to do was put a 1.6 mile gondola so people could just get out of the car, walk to the top of the rim, zip down there in 10 minutes, going down 32,000. How many feet? 3,200. 3,200 feet in 1,000. Yeah. And to the bottom and then just zip back up again, the amount of no blisters involved. No, when I think one of my last interviews with Stuart Udall at age 85, he had walked, he bowed it down to the bottom of Angel's flight and then he and his grandson walked all the way up.

Wow. And he was responsible for setting up the Grand Canyon Park. But there's something about if this is not a drive-by, you don't want to drive by the Grand Canyon experience, you want to be there, you want to spend some time there, you want to maybe suffer a little bit with those blisters. The thought of instant experience, yeah, I've been there, done that, check it off the bucket list without ever participating in the essence of this ancient hollowed place. And the grant, there are plenty of ways that people can experience the Grand Canyon if they don't want to hike, if they don't want to take a raft trip for eight days. I mean, they have all, they have wonderful things at the visitor center, they have great overlooks, they have lots of information about the history, about the natural history. So people really get 99% of the experience without riding a gondola down for 3,200 feet. Yeah, yeah. And there's the end of a variety of Grand Canyon, you can take a mule or a burrow down there, which is, again, very characteristic of the place.

So, and you stress, again, the sacredness of this site, why it is so sacred to so many of those native groups, and particularly I was moved by the Paiute, the elder, the old, but we'll let people read about that, but a very, very powerful and moving part. And of course, the Hopi, I mean, the Hopi salt shrine is near the confluence of the Colorado and the little Colorado, which is where the resort in my book and also in real life would take place. So in the real world, there are issues of jobs and economic development and the poverty level there. And then there's issues of the sacredness and the traditions not to be trampled. So you really show the efforts to balance these many diverse interests. How do things stand in the real world on that project? The current Navajo president and vice president are opposed to the development. And the Navajo nation is divided into chapters, which I guess you could say sort of like counties.

And the chapters that would be most affected, that really would gain the most from the jobs are also against it. So I don't, but it's one of those ideas that keeps coming around again and again. So I imagine people can probably pick up this book 20 years from now and it will still be being debated. Well, and I don't mean to, as I abstracted it, to isolate those two issues. This is not what this book is about. This is a page turner. Each one of these issues is manifested by a really interesting character, very articulate, very passionate. So it is really, this was a problem for me with this book. I loved it. I wanted to see how it turned out, but I didn't want it to end. So. Oh, every author loves to hear it. I just see that. So I did finish. I did find that how it ended. And of course, we can't talk about that. Another. Except you know, in a mystery, the crime is solved. Yeah.

So people don't have to worry. Yeah. Yeah. Another element that you introduce are social issues of the day, diabetes and the native population and alcoholism and again, this joblessness, there's just a lot of things to weave into the native life today. So you do a really good job of that. Well, thank you. Thank you. You know, the main point of novels, I think, is to be entertaining enough that people will read through them from beginning to end. But like my dad always said, it's really nice if while people are reading, you can teach them a little something. And my dad's readers, when he was doing book signings, they often would come up and they would say, well, I'm not a mystery reader. But I love the way you integrate cultural materials into your stories. And so I'm hoping people will say the same with the song of the lion. And also the attitude that Leaporn and Chi have, when things are out of harmony, out of balance, this is another way of crime solving. It is not Sherlock, you know, although Sherlock has another unusual perspective, but, you know,

we can look at many aspects of our life. You stress. Now, Bernadette is a very complex and sophisticated, modern woman. She's balancing a lot of elements in her life. But you show her moving in balance and doing what she can to establish and reestablish harmony through her running, through her prayers, through the cheese that she takes care of herself. And the absence of drinking other detectives of days past, not so much. Right. Well, and I think because she has, she comes from, she knows where she comes from. You know, she comes from, you know, Navajo's back generation, generation, generation. And she knows that, you know, her mother is there, both looking after her and for her to look after.

And then one thing I added to the series was to give her kind of a rowdy little sister who she has to look after, but who also kind of had some energy to the ends and, you know, a few more complications to the plot. Yes. So you show Bernadette balancing and adding harmony to her life. I looked at your book to her schedule. So here you've written these wonderful books and everybody wants to talk to you. And there's book fairs and there's a book tours. How do you achieve balance with the, there's a lot of travel and people always come out to see you. They're, they love these books so much. Well, you know, that's a really good question. And it's, I think, I think there is balance if you look at the big picture. Anybody who writes a novel has to spend a lot of time by herself with just, you know, her computer, her imaginary characters. So so there's that solitary time.

And then when that's over, there's all the kind of public sort of making up for lost time in terms of, of interacting with people. So I think there is a balance, but it just, it doesn't look like it looking at my schedule. Yeah. But in the long, in the long haul. In the big picture. Yeah. There really is balance. The introvert period, then the very intense extrovert period. Right. And you noticed, you would post it on Facebook that you had had a visit with the office of the medical investigator in Albuquerque, Dr. Nalti, to find out something. So are you always thinking about the next book, I want, there is an ex book. There is an ex book. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. And actually it's due in May. Oh. So not only am I thinking about, I'm almost done with it. Oh my goodness. And so I realized, I had to talk to Dr. Nalti because I realized in this book, I have three bodies. And I'm not sure which of them would be logically autopsy'd. And then I also wasn't sure about what, if someone is poisoned, how long the poison less than the body, say if it's in the water or if it's in the poison situation, yeah, and

that's pretty sad. And so, and he gave me, he was, he's a wonderful guy. He gave me a lot of good ideas. Oh, good. He should write a mystery himself. Well, maybe he will. Maybe he will. Yeah. Are there at some contemporary events that are going on that you are watching closely to see if you can appropriate them for a plot? Um, not at the moment, although the Navajo Nation is thinking of building a new casino. And that always makes, makes my, my light bulbs go off because there's so much, so much potential there for corruption and abuse and scandal and, you know, people behaving badly. I also, I, I've never been to Antelope Canyon, which is on the Navajo reservation. And I'm thinking I would love to go and set a story there. So that's, that's kind of turning up in my mind. Absolutely. It's the most beautiful place. It's the most photographed slot can. It's got compelling photographs.

Oh, tell me, tell me after you go what it's like, because I would love to go there too. Well, maybe I'll get Don to take some pictures. Oh, yes. Please, please. Another element that I am so grateful to you for is your dedication to libraries. And the love of libraries, in matter of fact, even immediately today, you're going to a library event where they're honoring you. But tell me about your connection to libraries and, and I'm so grateful that you dedicate as much time and energy as you do to them. Well, I, I really would not have been a writer without libraries. Because I don't think anybody can become a writer without being a reader. And when I was growing up, my, well, first of all, it was a period where there weren't a lot of inexpensive children's books available. So my mom would take me to the library every week. We would come back with a bag of books when I, before I think, even before I could read on my own. And then I went to school here in Santa Fe at Loretta Academy. And often I would ride home with my, with my father.

And there would be a couple hours that, between the time I got out of school, the time he was coming home. And I would go to the library and it just, I mean, it made me feel so grown up. And I think it taught me so much about the world that I never would have learned without access to libraries. And I think today, more than ever, libraries are so important for our democracy. Libraries have computers for people who can't afford computers. Libraries are centers for all kinds of programs that help, help adults learn to read, help children become, you know, feel like they're part of our society, summer reading programs, early, you know, kindergarten reading programs. I just, I'm a big fan of libraries. Yes. Yes. So isn't book list the official publication of the American Library Association? It is. Well, you know what they said about you. They said, Menuelito, your main character, is the main character in what has become a fine legacy series. So that's a really profound compliment that now on her own and with your own with these

three books, it is adding, it's its own legacy as well as your father's. So how do you feel about it? I was thrilled when I read that and I just feel so grateful for all of the people who love my dad's work, who took a chance on a new kid in town and, and, like Spider Woman's daughter, and now have told their friends. So there's like every book that comes out, there's a little more buzz. I mean, there would, there wouldn't be writers if there weren't readers. And I just am so thankful that back when I was first starting, that, that my dad, and my dad said, hi standards, I have to say. So I was, I was wondering if his fans would become my fans. And I, I think I have also picked up a few new fans, people who hadn't heard of my dad, who now, because when I do signings, people come up to me and they say, oh, I didn't realize that this was, like, as you said, a legacy series. So now I'm going to have to go back and read the beginning starting in 1970s.

Yes, what a lovely prospect for them to read all of those books. It is, it is, it's too bad, it takes so much longer to write them than it does to read them. I know, I know, because we, we devour them and want more. Do you ever want to kind of do something a little different and cleanse your palette, sort of, your creative palette, or maybe do a little historical piece or something to, to give it, to give this legacy, creating a rest? Not yet. Good. Not yet. I feel like there are so many other stories and situations and so many beautiful places on the Navajo Reservation that I would like to take Chi and Bernie and Joe Leaporn to. I love to listen to music and I love to look at visual art. And I think all of that gives the verbal part of my brain a break. So no, I mean, if I've been writing all day, I really don't want to sit at my computer and read, read the news online, I have to say that, and I don't want to do that. But I might want to watch, say, NCIS or something, something, something, something on TV.

And I'm so bad now, things will be going along and I'll say to Don, oh, that would never happen. Right. I'm a little nervous. Yeah, improbable. Well, thank you for cleansing your mental palate by coming and being with us today. I'm so pleased with your new book. Our guest today is Anne Hellerman. We've been talking about the third Bernadette Manimulito, the song of the lion really, really, you're just, you hit your stride with this one and so did Bernie. So thank you, Anne Hellerman, for joining us. Thank you for inviting me. It's been a wonderful conversation. It has, it has, we'll see you for the next book. And I'm Lorraine Mills. I'd like to thank you our audience for being with us today and report from Santa Fe. We'll see you next week. Past archival programs of report from Santa Fe are available at the website, reportfromsatafay.com. If you have questions or comments, please email info at reportfromsatafay.com. Part from Santa Fe is made possible in part by Grant Strong, the members of the National

Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by a grant from the Healy Foundation, Taos, New Mexico.