New Mexico in Focus; 1024; Pueblo Foods and Jeff Proctor on Police in the Courts

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO INFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION, THE NELITTA E. WALKER FUND FOR KNME-TV, THE KNME-TV ENDOWMENT FUND AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU. >> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS, WHY SOME NATIVE AMERICANS ARE SEEKING OUT THE FOODS THEIR ANCESTORS ATE. >> MORE THAN HEALTH. IT WAS A VERY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY INTO GETTING RECONNECTED TO OUR CULTURE AND PLACE. >> AND THE LINE DEBATES WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN NEXT AS LAWMAKERS GRAPPLE WITH A CONTINUED BUDGET DEFICIT. >> NEW MEXICO INFOCUS STARTS NOW. >> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR NEW MEXICO INFOCUS. LATER IN THE HOUR, JOURNALIST JEFF PROCTOR STOPS BY. HE TALKS ABOUT HIS REPORTING WITH THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN ABOUT HOW LANGUAGE AND RELATIONSHIPS MAY PLAY A ROLE IN HOW POLICE OFFICERS ARE TREATED IN THE COURTS. AND THE LINE WILL DISCUSS CALLS ACROSS THE STATE FOR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO

DECLARE THEMSELVES SANCTUARY CAMPUSES. AND WE LEARN ABOUT PUEBLO FOOD, TRADITIONS AND HEALTH AND CULTURAL BENEFITS THAT SOME NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE FOUND WHEN THEY ATE MORE TRADITIONAL FOODS. LET'S START WITH THE LINE. >> THIS WEEK, STATE LAWMAKERS WERE INFORMED THAT THE CURRENT STATE BUDGET WILL COME UP 69 MILLION SHORT, AND PROJECTIONS FOR THE NEXT FISCAL YEAR ALSO UNDER CURRENT PLANNED STATE SPENDING. THE BUDGET WILL BE A KEY ISSUE WHEN LAWMAKERS CONVENE FOR THE NEXT 60 DAY SESSION IN LINE OPINION PANELISTS ARE READY TO WEIGH IN ON WHAT IS AHEAD. I AM JOINED BY DANIEL FOLEY, FORMER NEW MEXICO HOUSE MINORITY WHIP. FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE JANICE ARNOLD JONES IS HERE. SOPHIE MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND EDITOR OF DUKECITYFIX.COM AND FORMER STATE SENATOR ERIC GRIEGO. SO MANY FORMER LAWMAKERS, HERE THIS WEEK. SOPHIE DON'T FEEL LEFT OUT. >> SHE MAY KNOW MORE ABOUT THE BUDGET -- [MULTIPLE VOICES] >> WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THIS

PANEL, HOWEVER, IS YOU GUYS HAVE ALL WEIGHED IN ON THE BUDGET AS WE HAVE GONE ALONG IN THE LAST YEAR-AND-A-HALF OR SO. DAN, STARTING WITH YOU, IF YOU WERE IN THE HOUSE RIGHT NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU BE BANGING ON THE TABLE ABOUT RIGHT NOW? WHAT WOULD YOU BE POUNDING YOUR FIST ON THE TABLE ABOUT RIGHT NOW. WOULD DO, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS HERE BEFORE, I AM ADAMANTLY OPPOSED TO 10% ACROSS THE BOARD CUTS. I THINK YOU TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT HAS NOT WORKED, WE ARE CUTTING THAT PROGRAM 100%. THAT HAS WORKED, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE IT MAINTAINS THE FUNDING. THAT IS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE LEGISLATURE AND LEADERSHIP TO LOOK AT WHAT IS WORKING, MAKE SURE THAT STAYS GETTING FUNDING, WHAT ISN'T WORKING GETS CUT. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN THAT WAY. THEY ARE GOING TO SETTLE ON AN ACROSS THE BOARD CUT. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'LL GET IT DONE BECAUSE I THINK THERE WILL BE A GAP BETWEEN THE LEADERSHIP IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE THAT IS NOW BOTH CONTROLLED BY THE DEMOCRATS AND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, AND, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR IS NOTE RUNNING FOR ANYTHING, SO

SHE IS NOT UP FOR REELECTION SO I DON'T SEE HER WAFFLING OR CRATERING ON ANY POSITIONS. I THINK THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE AN INTERESTING PUSH AFOOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MEMBERS, ESPECIALLY IN THE HOUSE DEMOCRAT LEADERSHIP EARLY CHILDHOOD DEVELOPMENT, HUGE PROPONENTS OF THAT, WANT TO PUT MORE MONEY AT INTO THAT. THEY WANT TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT AND SO, IT IS GOING TO BE A TOUGH BATTLE, I THINK GOING INTO THE SESSION, BUT FOR ME IT WOULD BE WHAT WORKS, FUND IT. WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CUT IT. >> JANICE SAME QUESTION, IF YOU'RE BACK IN THE HOUSE WHAT WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT WITH LEADERSHIP RIGHT NOW? >> I WOULD BE CLOSELY MIMICKING WHAT REPRESENTATIVE FOLEY SAID. OPPORTUNITY. IF YOU'RE AN ADVOCATE OF SMALLER GOVERNMENT, THIS IS IT. THIS IS IT. BUT YOU GOT TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS AND THERE NEEDS TO BE LEADERSHIP FROM THE TOP AND THE ONLY PLACE WE CAN CUT IN STATE GOVERNMENT IS THROUGH OUR AGENCIES. SO THERE ARE AGENCIES THAT NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND IF THEY HAVE THINGS STACKING UP THEY HAVEN'T

TOUCHED FOR FOUR TO SIX MONTHS, START THERE, BECAUSE THE KEY TO MAKING IT SMALLER IS ALSO TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT YOU EXPECT. AND SO ARE THERE THINGS THAT REALLY ARE USELESS FOR PEOPLE TO ENGAGE IN GOVERNMENT WITH? YES, SUCKS THEIR TIME, THEIR MONEY, BUT WE ARE NOT GETTING ANYTHING AND THE AGENCY CAN'T GET TO IT. VERY CLEAR MARKERS FOR REDUCING BECAUSE HERE IS THE SAD THING, I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS GOING TO BE ANY NEW MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT SENATOR SMITH IS CALLING FOR. AND FURTHER, I BELIEVE, BY THE TIME WE GET TO JANUARY, YOU'LL SEE AN OVERALL 7% REDUCTION OVER WHAT WE JUST LOOKED AT AND SO, WHERE DO YOU GO? WHERE DO YOU GO? IT IS TIME TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE REALLY AREN'T LOOKING AT THAT PIECE OF PAPER THAT WE REQUIRE ERIC GRIEGO TO SUBMIT JUST TO KEEP HIS BUSINESS GOING, AND SO, WE NEED TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE AND REPEAL THAT STUFF. >> I WANT TO COME BACK TO SOME OF THAT STUFF. THERE IS A FINE LINE AND WE ARE SEEING THIS ALREADY BETWEEN CUTTING BECAUSE OF BUDGET CONSIDERATIONS AND

GETTING SERVICES MADE TO FOLKS WHO EXPECT AND NEED THEM. WHERE IS THE LINE? IF YOU WERE IN THE SENATE WHAT WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT WITH THE SENATE LEADERSHIP ABOUT THAT ISSUE. HOW DO YOU CUT RESPONSIBLY AND NOT HURT NEW MEXICANS. >> I DISAGREE WITH THE PREMISE ON CUTTING BECAUSE WE CUT AND OUTCOMES FOR KIDS. WE HAVE THE -- AS WE TALKED ABOUT AD NAUSEAM, WE HAVE ONE OF THE LARGEST PERMANENT FUNDS. IT IS STILL SACROSANCT SO IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE DECIDE TO USE IT FOR, THE FACT THAT A FAMILY WOULD SIT ON A MASSIVE SAVINGS ACCOUNT WHILE THEIR CHILDREN ARE STARVING, WHILE ELDERS ARE NOT TAKEN CARE OF, WHILE THEY DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE, WHILE HAVING DISMAL OUTCOMES. IT IS JUST ABSURD. SO -- >> GO AHEAD. >> I WAS GOING TO SAY, REVENUE, REVENUE, REVENUE, RIGHT? THAT IS ONE IDEA. IF PEOPLE CAN'T LIVE WITH THAT, THE NICE THING ABOUT THAT IS THE GOVERNOR CANNOT VETO THAT. IF THIS NEW DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE HAS A SPINE TO DO THIS, THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE

THAT HAPPEN, WHETHER IT IS EARLY CHILDHOOD OR EXPANDING FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS, SOMETHING TO GET SOME ADDITIONAL REVENUE. AND, SECONDLY, I SPONSORED THAT INTERNET SALES TAX. NO REASON WHY WE SHOULD BE LETTING OUT OF STATE VERY, VERY WEALTHY COMPANIES NOT HAVE TO PAY SALES TAX. AND I GOT IT TO THE FLOOR AND IT WAS KILLED, BY THE WAY, BY BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS. SO IF YOU WANT TO HELP SMALL BUSINESSES, IT IS NOT GENERATING MUCH BUT THERE ARE ABOUT 15 OTHER REVENUE PROPOSALS LIKE THAT, INCLUDING LEGALIZING AND TAXING MARIJUANA, INTERNET TAX, CLOSING THE CAPITAL GAINS TAX LOOPHOLE FOR THE WEALTHIEST FOLKS; REPEALING LOTS OF CORPORATE TAX CUTS WE HAVE GIVEN AWAY. IF WE HAVE THE POLITICAL WILL, WE CAN RAISE THE REVENUE AND STOP THIS CONVERSATION BEING A ONE-SIDED CONVERSATION ABOUT CUT, CUT, CUT. >> INTERESTING. YOU HAVE GOT A FULL PLATE AFTER ALL THREE OF THESE GUYS WEIGHED IN. THE IDEA OF NEW TEAM COMING IN, THAT DAN BROUGHT UP. >> DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP, YEAH. >> THERE IS A DIFFERENT APPROACH WHEN YOU HAVE A NEW WAVE OF LEADERSHIP COMING IN.

SOME SOMETIMES FOLKS GO FOR GUSTO AND PILE IT ON AND SOMETIMES FOLKS JUST KIND OF FEEL THEIR WAY ALONG. WHAT IS YOUR PREDICTION? >> THIS IS AN EXPERIENCED GROUP THAT THEY HAVE HAD WILDERNESS TO KICK AROUND WHAT THEY THINK IS NECESSARY TO IMPROVE THINGS IN NEW MEXICO. AND TO BUILD ON WHAT ERIC WAS SAYING, WE HAVE THE SECOND WORST UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN THE COUNTRY AFTER ALASKA, SO, FINALLY, MISSISSIPPI, BY THE WAY, RISES ABOVE, GOOD FOR THEM. BUT THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY HERE TRYING TO CUT OUR WAY, CONSTANTLY CUT THE NUMBER OF -- CONTINUING TO CUT THE NUMBER OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES. WE HAVE KNOWN FOR DECADES THAT GOVERNMENT WAS A HUGE ECONOMIC ENGINE IN NEW MEXICO AND THERE HAS BEEN PEOPLE SAYING, THAT IS A TERRIBLE THING, THAT IS A POSITIVE THING, BUT THE TRUTH IS WE DON'T SEE INDUSTRY TAKING UP THE SLACK IN TERMS OF THOSE GOVERNMENT JOBS AND WE NEED NEW MEXICANS TO BE WORKING, TO BE EARNING DECENT INCOMES, TO BE SPENDING THAT MONEY IN THE LOCAL MARKET. IF THEY ARE GOING TO SPEND IT

ON AMAZON, I AGREE THOSE PURCHASES NEED TO BE TAXED AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING WITH THE WAY GOVERNMENT IS CONDUCTED RIGHT NOW, IS A PUSH TO HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT, A PUSH TO LOWER INCOME, AND THAT, I THINK, IS ONE OF THE BIG REASONS WE ARE SPIRALING TOWARD THE BOTTOM. WE HAVE SAID AROUND THE TABLE, OR I HAVE FOR A LONG TIME, YOU CAN'T ALWAYS COUNT ON OIL AND GAS. WE HAVE FINALLY SEEN THAT TO OUR TERRIBLE DETRIMENT AND THIS BEING WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER A PRETTY DESPERATE TIME, IT IS DISCOURAGING TO SEE OUR GOVERNOR SO DOCTRINAIRE, SO UNWILLING TO MOVE IN ANY WAY ON THE IDEA OF REVENUE, ON THE IDEA OF TAXES. THINGS ARE BAD. EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE CREATIVE AND THAT INCLUDES GOVERNOR MARTINEZ. >> SPEAKING ON THE REVENUE IDEA, WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ON REVENUE? ERIC LAID OUT A COUPLE OF PROPOSALS HERE. ON THE INTERNET SIDE, THERE WILL BE SUITS AND PUSH BACK AND THAT KIND OF THING. WE CAN GET THROUGH THAT, CAN'T WE?

I WOULD THINK IF WE HAVE A GOAL TO DO THAT, WE COULD MAKE IT HAPPEN. >> I THINK SO. THERE ARE SEVERAL WAYS BECAUSE, UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS A TWO-EDGED SWORD. AS YOU RAISE REVENUE, IF YOUR ONLY TARGET FOR RAISING REVENUE IS YOUR OWN PEOPLE, SO, NOW THEY HAVE LESS MONEY BECAUSE YOU HAVE INCREASED THEIR TAXES, WHICH MEANS THEY CANNOT SPEND AS MUCH BECAUSE TAXES ARE GOING TO GOVERNMENT, SO, THERE IS A BALANCE THAT YOU HAVE TO GET TO. AND, SO, WHAT ARE THE THINGS -- I THINK WHAT WE ARE ALL SAYING IS THAT GOING DOWN THE ROAD OF LET'S CUT ANOTHER 5% ACROSS THE BOARD, THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE THERE ARE REAL ISSUES IN THIS STATE. AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SOME CHOICES, FOCUS ON OUR PRIORITIES AND MAY HAVE TO LET A LITTLE BIT GO. I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS NOT ROOM TO RAISE SOME REVENUE. THERE IS. >> ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH A GAS TAX, FOR EXAMPLE? >> I DON'T LIKE IT. BUT IT IS PROBABLY AN EASY ONE TO GO, BUT AGAIN ANY TIME YOU RAISE TAXES IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, ANYBODY WHO IS DEPENDING ON GASOLINE TO GET TO WORK, WHO IS REALLY ON A TIGHT BUDGET, IS HURT. >> WE HAVE THESE TWO

DISCUSSIONS THAT ARE GOING ON AND WE HAVE ON ONE HAND, AND JANICE PUT THIS OUT NICELY, THERE ARE PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO WHO REALLY HAND TO MOUTH AND INCREASE IN GAS COST COULD BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING ABLE TO GET TO WORK AND GET KIDS TO SCHOOL, ET CETERA. ON THE OTHER HAND WE HAVE PEOPLE DOING EXTREMELY WELL AND REFUSE TO INCREASE TAXES ON THEM THAT BECAUSE THAT ISN'T COMPETITIVE. IT HAS GOT TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER OR MAYBE A LITTLE OF BOTH, BUT WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO LOOK AT MILLIONAIRES AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE CAN'T POSSIBLY TOUCH THAT MONEY, WE HOPE THAT YOU WILL INVEST IN OUR STATE AND WE KNOW THAT DOESN'T NECESSARY NECESSARILY, HAPPEN. TO THE POINT THAT ERIC MADE BEFORE, WHEN YOU HAVE A BIG CHUNK OF SAVINGS, YOU HAVE GOT MONEY YOU'RE NOT CIRCULATING IN THE MARKET, IT DOESN'T ADVANTAGE NEW MEXICO. IF WE ARE NOT TAXING THAT MONEY AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAID, YEAH, GO AHEAD AND RAISE MY TAXES, WE HAVE SEEN THAT NATIONALLY, WE ARE NOT TAXING THAT MONEY, WE ARE FORCED TO LOOK AT THINGS LIKE GASOLINE

TAX, FOOD TAX, TAX ON MEDICATIONS. THINGS THAT SO VERY MUCH HURT OUR POOREST HERE IN NEW MEXICO. >> DAN, THE HOLD HARMLESS SCHEME -- I LIKE THAT REACTION, JANICE -- IS ENDING AND IT SEEMS LIKE WE ARE BOOTING A PROBLEM DOWN THE ROAD, DOWN TO THE LOCAL FOLKS NOW AND THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT. DO YOU PREDICT THAT IS GOING TO GO TO SOME KIND OF REVENUE SCHEME. >> YEAH, THEY ARE GOING DO IT. HERE IS THE PROBLEM, KIND OF IN MY VIEW, LISTENING TO WHAT EVERYBODY SAID. THERE IS NO DOUBT -- WHEN YOU'RE THE SECOND HIGHEST STATE IN UNEMPLOYMENT, THAT MEANS WE DON'T HAVE JOBS. IF WE DON'T HAVE JOBS, TAXING INDUSTRY DOESN'T ATTRACT THOSE JOBS. I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD BE GIVING THEM MORE TAX CUTS. I DON'T ADVOCATE THAT, BUT I DO THINK YOU MAY SEE, AND I HAVE BEEN WRONG BEFORE, I THINK YOU MAY SEE THE LEGISLATURE TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME SORT OF A BORROWING OPTION OUT OF THE PERMANENT FUND. COMING IN AND SAYING, LOOK, WE WANT TO TAKE THIS CHUNK OF MONEY FROM THE PERMANENT FUND

BUT WE ARE GOING TO SET A CAP THAT SAYS, LISTEN, IF WE TAKE THIS MONEY, ANYTHING ABOVE, YOU KNOW, THIS REVENUE, OIL AND GAS REVENUE, OR THIS GROSS RECEIPTS TAX, AUTOMATICALLY GOES BACK TO REPLENISH THAT STUFF. THERE WAS HINT OF THAT IN JOHN ARTHUR SMITH TALKING ABOUT CREATING ANOTHER NEW PERMANENT FUND AND THE REASON, I THINK, THAT MAY HAPPEN IS THE CONSTANT CONVERSATION ABOUT WE NEED MONEY NOW. LISTEN, HERE IS THE DEAL. WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE. I DON'T WANT TO PUT THESE GUYS ON THE SPOT BUT OUR BUDGETARY PROCESS IN THE LEGISLATURE, IT IS ONE WHERE THE CONSTITUTION SAYS WE HAVE TO HAVE A BALANCED BUDGET; NO IF, AND'S OR BUT'S, AND WE ALWAYS BACK INTO THE NUMBER. HERE IS THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE ARE GOING TO SPEND IN THE BUDGET. NOW GO TELL DFA, TELL THE LFC GUYS WHAT IS THE PRICE OF OIL AND GAS GOT TO BE? AND THEY SAY, OH, PRICE OF OIL AND GAS HAS TO BE THIS. THERE WE GO, BALANCED BUDGET. NOBODY PAID ATTENTION TO THAT. WE RAILED AGAINST THAT ON THE FLOOR, FOUGHT AGAINST THAT FOR YEARS AND IT WAS TOO ESOTERIC FOR PEOPLE. BUT, NOW, THE MEDIA HAS BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS BUDGET CRISIS.

I THINK YOU'LL HAVE A HARD TIME WALKING OUT OF THE LEGISLATURE AND SAYING, WE HAVE A BALANCED BUDGET, 4140-DOLLAR A BARREL OF OIL AND WE'RE AT 8-DOLLAR MCF FOR GAS AND THE MEDIA AND EVERYBODY IS GOING TO, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT IN 35 YEARS. I THINK THEY'LL HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME COMING UP WITH A BUDGET. AND I THINK THAT IS WHY YOU'RE HEARING WORDS LIKE, WE NEED NOW MONEY, IS BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GLOSS THIS OVER. THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN DO THAT, IMMEDIATELY -- HERE IS THE DEAL. IF THEY RAISE A TAX, THEY AREN'T GOING TO SEE THE MONEY FOR A YEAR FROM NOW. NOW MONEY MEANS NOW. I THINK YOU'LL SEE SOME SORT OF A LOAN PROCESS WITH THE PERMANENT FUND CREATED, AND, REMEMBER, WE TALK ABOUT WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS AND WHAT THE LAW SAYS, REMEMBER, LEGISLATORS GET NO MONEY OTHER THAN THE PER DIEM, BUT NOW WE GOT RETIREMENT, BECAUSE THE COURT SAID WE COULD. SO, WHATEVER WE PUT OUT THERE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER COMES OUT THERE, IT COULD BE ENOUGH OF A CRISIS WHEN IT GETS TO THE COURTS, THE COURTS ARE LIKE, WE ARE OKAY WITH THAT. WE DON'T NEED A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT. >> TWO THINGS, ONE, WHEN YOU HIT THE PERMANENT FUND, DON'T FORGET THAT MONEY IS DEDICATED

TO OUR SCHOOLS. AND, SO, YOU WILL HAVE A COMMENSURATE INCREASE IN TAXES TO SUPPORT OUR SCHOOLS. THERE IS NO CHOICE. HOWEVER -- >> AREN'T WE LOOKING TO TAKE 120 MILLION OUT OF EDUCATION. >> I LOOKED AT THAT AND I AM GOING, OH BOY, BUT THE OTHER SIDE IS LOOK AT THE LEGISLATURE'S RECORD AND HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE. WE HAVE TWO FUNDS THAT ARE UNDERFUNDED AND THAT IS PERA AND ERB. WE HAD PLANS TO MAKE THEM SOLVENT AND DID IT HAPPEN? NO. >> WE'LL END IT THERE. REPORTER JEFF PROCTOR COVERS LAW ENFORCEMENT AND COURTS FOR THE JUSTICE PROJECT FOR NEW MEXICO IN-DEPTH FOLKS. HE STOPPED BY THIS WEEK TO TALK ABOUT HIS REPORTING WITH THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN ABOUT HOW LANGUAGE AND CONFLICTS OF INTEREST CAN IMPACT HOW CASES AGAINST POLICE OFFICERS ARE HANDLE IN THE COURTS. LET'S HEAR WHAT HE TOLD PRODUCER SARAH GUSTAVUS. >> JEFF PROCTOR, THANKS FOR STOPPING BY THIS WEEK. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. >> A FEW MONTHS AGO A TRIAL OF TWO ALBUQUERQUE POLICE OFFICERS INVOLVED IN THE SHOOTING DEATH OF JAMES BOYD

ENDED IN A HUNG JURY. YOU REPORTED FOR THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN ABOUT SOME OF THE ISSUES IN THERE AND NOT JUST ABOUT THE JAMES BOYD INVESTIGATION INTO THE OFFICERS BUT HOW OFFICERS ARE THESE THINGS END UP IN COURT AND WHAT HAPPENS WITH LANGUAGE AND CULTURE. I WANT TO START WITH THIS. WHO INVESTIGATES OFFICERS WHEN THEY ARE INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING AND THERE MIGHT BE CRIMINAL CHARGES? >> MOSTLY POLICE DEPARTMENTS INVESTIGATE THEIR OWN OFFICERS IN NEW MEXICO IN SHOOTING THAT IS THE CASE WITH THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, WITH NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE. THERE IS ALSO A NUMBER OF KIND OF SMALLER RURAL JURISDICTIONS THAT HAVE THE STATE POLICE CONDUCT THEIR INVESTIGATIONS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO LOOK INTO THOSE KIND OF THINGS BUT WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT THERE IS THIS MASSIVE PATCHWORK ALL OVER THE STATE WHERE EVERYBODY SEEMS TO KIND OF DO IT DIFFERENTLY. AND THAT GOES FOR BOTH THE INVESTIGATIONS OF THE SHOOTINGS AND THE REVIEWS BY THE PROSECUTORS IN 13 DIFFERENT JUDICIAL DISTRICTS AROUND THE STATE.

>> YEAH. HOW DO WE COMPARE TO OTHER STATES? >> IT IS PRETTY COMMON AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT POLICE INVESTIGATE THEMSELVES. IT IS A RELATIVELY NEW CONVERSATION. STRANGE AS THAT IS TO GET YOUR MIND AROUND, THAT PERHAPS THE POLICE SHOULD NOT BE INVESTIGATING THEMSELVES. THERE HAVE BEEN A COUPLE PLACES IN THE COUNTRY THAT HAVE TRIED DIFFERENT MODELS. WISCONSIN IS TRYING A DIFFERENT MODEL AND NEW YORK HAS STARTED TO EMBRACE A MORE INDEPENDENT BODY TO LOOK AT THESE THINGS. >> THE STORY YOU REPORTED WITH ANDREW OXFORD, WHAT DID YOU FIND MIGHT CHANGE? WHAT IS POSSIBLE? >> WHAT IS POSSIBLE IS TO CREATE AN INDEPENDENT BODY THAT DOES BOTH THE INVESTIGATION OF THE SHOOTING AND THE REVIEW OF THAT INVESTIGATION TO DETERMINE WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE CRIMINAL CHARGES. THE PROBLEM THERE, AS WITH SO MANY OTHER THINGS, IS MONEY. FIGURING OUT A WAY TO PAY FOR AN INDEPENDENT BODY LIKE THAT IS A CONVERSATION THAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT IN NEW MEXICO. >> BEYOND MONEY, WHO IS QUALIFIED TO INVESTIGATE THE POLICE BESIDES THE POLICE? >> THERE ARE A BUNCH OF

DIFFERENT KINDS OF INVESTIGATORS THAT YOU COULD HIRE. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE HAS QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT INVESTIGATORS. IT IS REALLY NOT A ROCKET SCIENCE KIND OF THING, IF SOMEBODY HAS GOT LAW ENFORCEMENT POWERS WHO CAN READ AN OFFICER A MIRANDA WARNING, AND THEN DO BASIC EVIDENCE COLLECTION AND ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT GO ALONG WITH A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION. >> YOU AND JUSTIN ALSO LOOKED AT LANGUAGE USED BY OFFICERS IN THEIR REPORTS. WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD SURPRISE PEOPLE IF THEY HEARD ABOUT THE LANGUAGE THAT IS USED TO DESCRIBE SHOOTINGS? >> WELL, THE LANGUAGE IS OFTEN, WHAT WE FOUND, AND THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT JUSTIN AND I NOTICED FROM COVERING THE TRIAL AND THAT IS HOW WE CAME TO WRITE THAT ADDITIONAL STORY, THAT THE LANGUAGE IS REALLY ANTISEPTIC. URALIAN IN A WAY. SOME OF THE THINGS WE FOUND IS THEY DON'T REFER TO GUNS AS GUNS. THEY CALL THEM SYSTEMS OR PLATFORMS. WHICH HAD JUSTIN AND I BOTH JUST KIND OF LIKE TAKEN ABACK WHILE WATCHING THIS TRIAL.

CONVERSELY, WHILE DESCRIBING MR. BOYD WHO HAD THE TWO POCKET KNIVES, THEY MADE THOSE SOUND SCARIER THAN THEY WERE. THEY CALLED THEM EDGED WEAPONS AND THE THING THAT REALLY BLEW US AWAY WAS THE DEFENSE POLICE PRACTICES EXPERT, A GUY NAMED RON MCCARTHY, WHO HAD BEEN A MEMBER OF THE NATION'S FIRST SWAT TEAM IN LOS ANGELES, HE WAS ASKED TO DESCRIBE WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE FROM AN OFFICER'S PERSPECTIVE SHOOTING SOMEONE THROUGH THE SCOPE ON HIS RIFLE. AND WHAT HE SAID WAS, IT WOULD LOOK LIKE THE PROBLEM DISAPPEARED FROM THE SIGHT PICTURE. ANOTHER WAY TO SAY THAT WOULD BE, THE POLICE OFFICER SHOT THE HOMELESS MAN AND HE FELL DOWN. SO, THOSE KIND OF EUPHEMISMS AND DISTANCING TYPE LANGUAGE REALLY IS KIND OF DESIGNED TO DEEMPHASIZE THE USE OF FORCE, WHETHER THAT HAS IMPACT ON A JURY, IT IS TOUGH TO SAY. I THINK THAT IS AN OPEN QUESTION, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING WE NOTICED THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL. >> ANOTHER INTERESTING THING

IN THE JAMES BOYD CASE, THERE WAS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR WHICH WAS REALLY INITIALLY ADDRESSED SOME OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DISTRICT ATTORNEYS AND POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT THEY ARE WORKING WITH ON OTHER CASES AND WHEN IT COMES TO A POLICE-INVOLVED SHOOTING, THEY ARE WORKING WITH THE SAME PEOPLE ALL OVER AGAIN. DO YOU THINK WE COULD SEE MORE SPECIAL PROSECUTORS IN THE FUTURE? >> I THINK WE COULD. IT IS A MONEY ISSUE. SPECIAL PROSECUTORS ARE EXPENSIVE AND IN THIS CASE IT WASN'T PARTICULARLY EXPENSIVE BECAUSE RANDI MCGINN, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, DECIDED TO MAKE A POINT AND TOOK $5400 TO HANDLE THIS CASE. THAT IS THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT IS PAID TO A CONTRACT PUBLIC DEFENDER IN A MURDER CASE, WHICH IS AN OUTRAGEOUSLY LOW SUM OF MONEY TO DEFEND SOMEONE IN A MURDER CASE BUT SHE WAS IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. SHE HAS A SUCCESSFUL PRIVATE PRACTICE DOING CIVIL RIGHTS AND PRODUCT LIABILITY, THOSE KIND OF THINGS. SPECIAL PROSECUTORS ARE EXPENSIVE. IF YOU'RE TALKING TO SOMEBODY WHO WOULD ACTUALLY TAKE THE FULL AMOUNT TO PROSECUTE A

CASE LIKE THAT. >> WHAT IS NEXT? WE HAVE SEEN ATTORNEY GENERAL HECTOR BALDERAS SAI HE'LL LOOK INTO THE INCIDENTS WITH A COMMITTEE. WHAT WILL YOU BE WATCHING? >> WE'LL WATCH THE WORK OF THAT COMMITTEE. THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE SIX MONTHS, AND SURVEY 190 LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AROUND THE STATE TO GET A SENSE OF HOW THEY INVESTIGATE POLICE SHOOTINGS, HOW THOSE INVESTIGATIONS ARE REVIEWED AND SEE IF IT IS WORTH COMING UP WITH SOMETHING THAT IS MORE UNIFORM OR POTENTIALLY MORE INDEPENDENT FROM THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW. WE WILL WATCH CAREFULLY THE WORK OF THE COMMITTEE AND THEN SCRUTINIZE THE REPORT THAT COMES OUT IN SIX MONTHS. >> DO YOU THINK THAT THE PUBLIC WANTS MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES WHEN IT COMES TO POLICE-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS AND THESE CASES? >> I THINK THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION. I THINK THE PUBLIC DOES WANT MORE INFORMATION. THERE WERE THINGS ABOUT THE BOYD CASE THAT WORKED REALLY WELL. THAT CASE WAS DECIDED IN TERMS OF GOING TO TRIAL IN A PRELIMINARY HEARING WITH THE LIGHTS ON, NOT IN A SECRET GRAND JURY PROCEEDING, SO VERY TRANSPARENT IN THAT WAY.

AND THEN WE HAD A THREE-WEEK TRIAL. AGAIN, VERY PUBLIC WITH CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM AND CONSTANT COVERAGE. I THINK THAT PART OF THE SYSTEM WORKED. IN TERMS OF DO PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY BROADLY WANT TO SEE POLICE OFFICERS PROSECUTED FOR ON-DUTY SHOOTINGS, I THINK THAT IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION AND I TEND TO AGREE WITH WHAT RANDI MCGINN TOLD ME WAS THAT THIS TRIAL, THIS WHOLE PROCEEDING, MADE THIS COMMUNITY PRETTY UNCOMFORTABLE. I THINK I AGREE WITH THAT. AT THE SAME TIME, IF A SHOOTING DOES CROSS THE LINE, FROM NEGLIGENCE INTO CRIMINAL, WE DO NEED TO HAVE A SYSTEM THAT IS MORE UNIFORM AND MORE INDEPENDENT THAT THE COMMUNITY CAN TRUST THAT THE PROCESS WORKED. >> JEFF, THANKS SO MUCH FOR STOPPING BY. WE'LL CHECK IN AGAIN WITH YOU IN THE FUTURE. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. >> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE. WE HAVE JUST HEARD FROM JOURNALIST JEFF PROCTOR WHO CO-REPORTED TWO STORIES FOR THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN ON INVESTIGATIONS OF POLICE SHOOTINGS. ERIC GRIEGO, DO YOU THINK NEW MEXICANS WANT CHANGES IN

INVESTIGATIONS OF POLICE SHOOTINGS? THAT QUESTION SARAH PUT TO HIM. IS THERE A HUNGER FOR THIS NOW SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THE POPULOUS. >> I THINK HOW COULD WE NOT. HOW COULD WE AS A COMMUNITY, TO PROTECT US, THEY MAY BE JUST A SMALL HANDFUL OF THEM, BUT WHO REALLY ARE TO THE POINT WHERE EVERY SIGNAL THEY ARE GETTING FROM THE COURTS, FROM THEIR LEADERSHIP, FROM THE POLICE OVERSIGHT, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, LOOK, YOU WERE NOT HELD TO THE SAME CONSTITUTIONAL STANDARD THAT WHICH IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT WE HAVE IS THE RIGHT TO LIFE, WHEN YOU CAN BE JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER FOR FOLKS LIKE MR. BOYD WHO HAD MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND YOU CAN CHOOSE IN THAT MOMENT, AND THAT YOU CANNOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, THEN I THINK IT GETS TO THE FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRACY. ARE WE AS A COMMUNITY, AS A NATION, GOING TO HOLD EVERYBODY TO THE SAME STANDARD OR ARE WE GOING TO SAY, IF YOU'RE THIS GUY OR IF YOU'RE

THIS GROUP OF FOLKS, IF YOU'RE A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR IF YOU'RE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, YOU GET A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES. BUT IF YOU'RE OUT THERE AND I DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I GET TO BE TREATED LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, RIGHT? SO IT IS JUST -- IT REALLY GETS TO THE HEART OF THE DEMOCRACY AND CONSTITUTION AND I THINK -- YOU KNOW, RANDI MCGINN IS ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY REGARDED TRIAL ATTORNEYS IN THE COUNTRY. IF SHE COULD NOT -- I WAS SHOCKED. IF SHE COULD NOT BRING BACK SOME SORT OF SANCTIONS, BECAUSE SHE TEACHES PEOPLE HOW TO DO TRIALS LIKE THIS, AND SHE COULD NOT GET, BASED ON WHAT THEY WERE GIVING TO HER, AND IT WAS LIKE TRYING TO PRACTICE LAW IN A THIRD WORLD SORT OF ENVIRONMENT, WHERE SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE BASIC LEGAL OPPORTUNITIES THAT OTHER CASES HAVE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO TREAT THESE GUYS SEPARATELY AND HAVE THEM SORT OF PROTECT EACH OTHER. >> SADLY, I HEAR WITH ERIC SAYS AND NOT FOR ARGUMENT SAKES BUT I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH ERIC. HERE IS WHERE I HAVE TO

DISAGREE. THE QUESTION WAS DO WE WANT THIS. I DON'T THINK THE PEOPLE DO. IT IS KIND OF LIKE THE POLL ABOUT CONGRESS, EVERYBODY CONGRESSMAN. I THINK EVERYBODY THINKS THE COP IS DOING THE RIGHT THING. NOBODY WANTS TO QUESTION THE POLICE OFFICERS BECAUSE THEY THINK ABOUT WHO IS GOING TO BE THERE WHEN I MAKE THAT 911 CALL, UNTIL IT AFFECTS THEM, AND THEN WHEN IT AFFECTS THEM, THERE IS A SMALL GROUP THAT SAYS, I AM ANGRY. AND IT SHOWS, IN MY OPINION, IN THIS TRIAL THERE WAS NOTHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN MORE DAMAGING TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THAN THE KILLING OF THIS YOUNG MAN WITH CLEAR MENTAL PROBLEMS, BUT COMMENTS THAT CAME OUT IN THE MEDIA, THINGS THAT WERE SAID, YOU COULDN'T WALK THESE THINGS BACK. YOU STILL WIND UP WITH A HUNG JURY. IF THERE WAS EVER GOING TO BE AN EXAMPLE OF A CASE, AS A NONLAWYER, THAT YOU WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT -- WE'RE NOT JUST RELYING ON SOMEBODY'S STORY OR SOME PERSON THAT WAS INJURED OR A DRUG DEALER. I MEAN, THERE WAS ACTUAL TAPE EVIDENCE THAT DIDN'T MAKE THE POLICE LOOK VERY WELL AND WE STILL CAME UP WITH A HUNG

JURY. I THINK WE COULD SIT AROUND THE TABLE AND RAIL AGAINST THIS AND TALK ABOUT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AND THAT IS A BIG QUESTION, BUT, I THINK THE PUBLIC -- I THINK THE PUBLIC OVERWHELMINGLY, AND THIS MAY NOT BE THE RIGHT WAY TO SAY IT, I KNOW YOU GUYS AND PEOPLE CRINGE WHEN I GIVE THAT CAVEAT, BUT I THINK THE PUBLIC IS WILLING TO GIVE UP SOME RIGHTS IN ORDER TO FEEL TOTALLY PROTECTED. I THINK IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE WAR ON TERROR WHERE WE GIVE UP RIGHTS EVERY SINGLE DAY. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYS WE ARE GOING TO MAKE YOU SAFER AND WE TURN AROUND AND WE NEVER GET THEM BACK. >> I AM GOING TO A LITTLE BIT AGREE AND A LITTLE BIT DISAGREE. I FEEL THAT OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS AND MAYBE LONGER, THERE HAS BEEN A PERSISTENT DRUM BEAT ABOUT DANGER ON OUR STREETS, DANGER IN OUR COMMUNITIES. I THINK THAT OUR POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE PARTICIPATED, HAVE FOSTERED THAT BECAUSE IT HELPS TO BUILD THEIR BUDGET AND JUSTIFY EXPENDITURES. THERE IS INCREASING SWATIFICATION OF OUR POLICE

>> IS THAT A WORD? >> IT IS NOW. I THINK THE LAUNCH IN COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY OF SOCIAL MEDIA THAT IS TIED TO POLICE DEPARTMENT, WHERE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE COLLECTING INFORMATION, AND I SOUND PARANOID, JUST THAT I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE -- HOME SOMETHING OR NEIGHBORHOOD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT, YOU KNOW, MANY OF US SIGNED ARE SIGNED OFF FOR SOCIAL MEDIA SITES WHERE WE REPORT ON CRIME IN OUR OWN COMMUNITIES. >> NEXT DOOR. >> THANK YOU. WE HAVE CREATED THIS INCREDIBLE STORM OF FEAR IN OUR COMMUNITIES WHEN, IN MANY CASES, IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE THIS IN ALBUQUERQUE RIGHT NOW AND NEW MEXICO RIGHT NOW, BUT IN MANY CASES WE ARE MUCH SAFER THAN WE WERE. CERTAIN TYPES OF CRIME ARE CERTAINLY DOWN AND YET WE HAVE THIS TERRIBLE FEAR. I FEEL THAT ALBUQUERQUE HAS CROSSED A LINE FROM I TRUST THE POLICE TO TAKE CARE OF ME, I WANT THIS INCREASED POLICE PRESENCE, TO NOW IN MANY PARTS OF ALBUQUERQUE, A FEAR THE POLICE HAVE GONE TOO FAR AND THAT IS AN IMPORTANT TIPPING

POINT FOR US. THE QUESTION NOW IS CAN WE DIAL IT BACK? IS THERE THE POLITICAL WILL TO PUT CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT WITH MEANINGFUL POWER OVER OUR POLICE DEPARTMENTS. IS THERE A POLITICAL WILL TO SAY THERE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY. IT IS NOT JUST THE BOYD SHOOTING. IT WAS JUST REPORTED AGAIN ON THAT TERRIBLE ESSENTIALLY SMOTHERING DEATH THAT HAPPENED IN RIO RANCHO. WE HAVE TOO MANY INSTANCES IN OUR SMALL TIGHT KNIT COMMUNITY AND I GOT TO SAY IT IS REALLY NOTICEABLE, ESPECIALLY IN A COMMUNITY LIKE ALBUQUERQUE, LIKE RIO RANCHO, HOW OFTEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUBJECT TO POLICE VIOLENCE ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR AND WE CANNOT IGNORE THAT. >> BEFORE WE START TALKING ABOUT GIVING POWER TO OUTSIDE ORGANIZATIONS, WHICH I AM NOT OPPOSED TO, I THINK POLICE HAVE TO HAVE A MIA CULPA AND DECIDE THEY WANT TO CLEAN THEMSELVES. THIS INABILITY -- I HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION WITH MANY PEOPLE BEFORE, FRIENDS OF MINE THAT ARE POLICE OFFICERS, DAN, NOT ALL OF US ARE BAD.

MY RESPONSE IS, LISTEN, I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I THINK IN MY OPINION THERE IS REALLY TWO TYPES. THERE IS THE GUY COMMITTING THE CRIMES THAT ARE POLICE OFFICERS AND GUYS IGNORING IT. YOU DON'T SEE THESE PEOPLE RUNNING IN THE FOREFRONTS AND SAYING, LISTEN, I WORKED WITH HER. >> YOU DON'T SEE THE WHISTLE BLOWERS. VERY SELDOM. >> UNTIL THAT STARTS, I DON'T CARE WHAT WE DO WITH OUTSIDE PEOPLE GIVING THEM AUTHORITY, UNTIL YOU'RE ABLE TO GET THESE GUYS TO POLICE THEMSELVES AND HOLD THEMSELVES TO THE SAME STANDARD THEY WANT US TO HOLD THEM TO, WITH THE SAME AUTHORITY WE GIVE THEM, IT IS NEVER GOING TO CHANGE. >> I THINK WE ARE AT THAT CRISIS MOMENT WITHIN THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT. THERE ARE REALLY GOOD POLICE OFFICERS WHO WELCOME -- I MEAN, NOBODY WANTS TO SHOOT THEY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT AND IF IT HAPPENS ON THEIR WATCH, THEY WANT A REVIEW TO MAKE SURE THEY DIDN'T MAKE MISTAKES AND TO BE EXONERATED AS MUCH FOR THEMSELVES AS FOR ANYBODY ELSE. >> HOW DOES THAT PLAY IN THE

PUBLIC'S MIND, THOUGH? CAN THE PUBLIC SEE AND FEEL THAT, THOUGH, WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING? >> ACTUALLY, I THINK I WAS SO SURPRISED WHEN THE RULING CAME OUT 9-3 SPLIT, SO CLEARLY THEY FELT THE POLICE OFFICERS WERE IN THE RIGHT. I HAVE BEEN AMAZED AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT I THOUGHT WOULD SAY, OH, THAT WAS TERRIBLE THAT THEY DIDN'T CONVICT THEM. I HAVE GOTTEN ALMOST 100% THE OPPOSITE. I WAS REALLY SURPRISED. THE OTHER SIDE IS THIS PART ABOUT INTERACTION WITH THE POLICE IS ACTUALLY A SMALL PART OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING. AND RIGHT NOW, I JUST CAME FROM A NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION MEETING. THE AMOUNT OF PROPERTY CRIME AS A RESULT OF HEROIN AND METH IS SO HORRENDOUS, PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR CARS. DID YOU SEE THE CARJACKING AT SAN MATEO AND CENTRAL? OH MY GOODNESS. AND PEOPLE WANT POLICE THERE. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE NOBODY STEPPING UP. >> WHERE IS THAT LINE, ERIC? EVERYBODY HERE -- I HEAR WHAT THESE GUYS ARE SAYING FOR SURE AND OUT IN THE PUBLIC TOO. PEOPLE ARE NERVOUS IN OUR

TOWN. HOW DOES THAT WORK WITH GIVING A LITTLE FUDGING ON THE IDEA THAT CIVIL LIBERTIES SOMEHOW IT IS OKAY TO KIND OF TAKE A STEP -- >> I THINK IT IS HARD. PART OF THE CIVIL LIBERTIES IS THE DEMOCRATIC AND JUDICIAL PROCESS AND IF YOU BASICALLY SAY YOU'RE GOING TO ASK BEST PROSECUTORS, FIRST OF ALL, TO RECUSE THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS INCESTUOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEN YOU BRING IN SOMEONE OF RANDI MCGINN'S CALIBER AND GIVE HER LIMITED FACTS, I AM SORRY, LIKE THEY ALWAYS SAY WITH THE GRAND JURY, YOU COULD INDICT A HAM SANDWICH. THE OTHER THING IS ALSO TRUE. IF YOU DON'T GIVE A PROSECUTOR TOOLS THEY NEED TO DO WHAT THEY NEED, ESSENTIALLY, YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE TAKING ON YOUR ALLIES IN TERMS OF FIGHTING CRIME. THERE IS A MUCH MORE BASIC COMMENT. AND SOPHIE SORT OF GOT TO THIS POINT, WHICH IS IF YOU GREW UP IN THIS COMMUNITY LIKE I DID AND DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU LIVE. IF YOU'RE A GUY WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES LIKE MR. BOYD WAS, IF YOU'RE A PERSON OF COLOR IN THIS COMMUNITY, AND LOOK AT THE STATISTICS, IF YOU LIVE IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CITY, YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT, AND SADLY THIS HAPPENS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT EVEN IN A

COMMUNITY THAT TREASURES ITS DIVERSITY, THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU AND THIS IS REAL FOR ME BECAUSE WE GOT PULLED OVER CONSTANTLY AS KIDS FOR DOING NOTHING. AND SO, BY THE WAY, THEY WEREN'T ALWAYS -- THEY WEREN'T ALWAYS OFFICERS OF A DIFFERENT RACE. THERE IS A CULTURE IN THE DEPARTMENT AND MANY DEPARTMENTS WHERE WE ARE ABOVE THE LAW AND EVEN WHEN WE DO STUFF LIKE THIS, KEITH SANDY DIDN'T THINK, GEE, I DON'T WANT TO KILL THIS GUY. IT LOOKED LIKE HE WAS REALLY INTO WHAT HE WAS DOING. HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN MAD AT THE GUY. MR. BOYD DID TERRIBLE THINGS AND HE ALSO HAD SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES. NOTHING, NOTHING JUSTIFIES THE EPITOME OF A PUBLIC SERVANT ON THE FRONT LINES CHOOSING TO TAKE THE LIFE OF SOMEONE WHO PAYS THEIR SALARIES, SOMEONE WHO IS AN AMERICAN, WHO HAS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE THEY BASICALLY ARE ABOVE THE LAW. >> GOT TO HAVE 20 SECONDS. MR. BOYD GRADUATED FROM THE SAME HIGH SCHOOL I WENT TO IN CLOUDCROFT. WE HAD THIS HEARING.

WE HAD THIS JURY DECISION AND YET WE ARE PAYING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THE FAMILY AND ALL OF THIS IS A MAN WHO LOST HIS LIFE BECAUSE HE HAD A KNIFE AND DECIDED HE WANTED TO CAMP ACTUALLY IN A PARK. AND, YOU KNOW, SOMEHOW THAT HAS ESCALATED. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT STANDOFF WHERE WE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT PEOPLE WITH THINGS IN THEIR HANDS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A HOMELESS GUY WHO WANTED TO SLEEP IN THE NATIONAL PARK. >> EXACTLY RIGHT. THAT IS ALL THE TIME ON THAT ONE. WHEN WE COME BACK, WE'LL DISCUSS PROPOSALS TO MAKE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES SANCTUARY CAMPUSES. TIME ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND JOIN THE CONVERSATION. WE ARE AT NMINFOCUS ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER AND FIND EPISODES AND WEB EXTRAS AT OUR WEBSITE NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.ORG. >> FOOD IS IMPORTANT NOT JUST TO SUSTAIN LIFE BUT HOW IT CONNECTS US TO TRADITIONS AND OTHER PEOPLE.

SOME NATIVE AMERICANS ARE SEEKING OUT FOODS THEIR ANCESTORS ATE IN AN EFFORT TO IMPROVE HEALTH AND RECONNECT WITH THEIR CULTURE. CORRESPONDENT MEGAN KAMERICK SAT DOWN EARLIER THIS FALL WITH AN EDITOR OF THE PUEBLO FOOD EXPERIENCE COOKBOOK AND A THEY TALKED ABOUT RECIPES THAT APPEAL TO ADULTS AND KIDS AND WHY FOOD TRADITIONS ARE >> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS. ROXANNE SWENTZELL, AUTHOR OF THE PUEBLO FOOD EXPERIENCE, WHOLE FOODS OF OUR ANCESTORS AND LOIS ELLEN FRANK, SCHOLAR, AUTHOR, CHEF AND I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU BOTH ABOUT RETURNING TO NATIVE FOODS. ROXANNE FOR NEARLY THREE HAVE EATEN ONLY MOSTLY FOOD EATEN BY YOUR ANCESTORS, BEFORE EUROPEAN CONTACT. WHY DID YOU WANT TO DO THIS AND HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT? >> I WANTED TO DO IT BY WAY OF TRYING TO KEEP OUR NATIVE BEEN A SEED SAVER FOR OVER 30 YEARS AND ONE WAY TO TRY TO

BRING BACK THE ACTUAL CROPS BACK INTO THE CULTURE AND TO FIND OUT IF IT IS POSSIBLE IN TODAY'S TIME. ALSO, BECAUSE OF THE HEALTH ISSUES WE FIND IN THE PUEBLOS, IN ALL THE TRIBES AT THIS POINT, AND SEEING WHAT IT WOULD DO TO US, PHYSICALLY, TO EAT OUR ANCESTRAL FOODS ONLY. SO, WE DID A TRIAL TEST FOR THREE MONTHS AND TESTED 14 VOLUNTEERS FOR THREE MONTHS. GOT PHYSICAL BLOOD TESTS AND STUFF TO SEE WHAT EATING ONLY PRE-CONTACT DIET WOULD DO TO US AND RESULTS WERE INCREDIBLE. >> REALLY. IMPROVED HEALTH OUTCOMES, BLOOD PRESSURE, WEIGHT LOSS. >> YEAH, AND MENTAL CLARITY. I MEAN EVERYBODY GOT HEALTHIER IN ALL WAYS. >> WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU TO EXPERIENCE THAT? >> MORE THAN A DIET. MORE THAN HEALTH. IT WAS A VERY SPIRITUAL

JOURNEY INTO GETTING RECONNECTED TO OUR CULTURE AND PLACE. I WAS THINKING AT THE TIME THAT, WOW, I DIDN'T KNOW FOOD WOULD BE THE JOURNEY THAT WOULD LEAD US CLOSER THAN I HAVE EVER BEEN TO WHAT I BELIEVE OUR ANCESTORS WERE HOLDING. >> YOU ALSO HAVE BEEN FOR 25 YEARS WRITING, EDUCATING, TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO COOK. WHAT WAS YOUR JOURNEY? HOW DID IT BEGIN AND DID YOU HAVE SIMILAR KIND OF EXPERIENCES? >> I THINK WE'RE A LOT ALIGNED. DIFFERENT. AS A PROFESSIONAL CHEF AND BEING CLASSICALLY TRAINED, WHAT I NOTICED WAS THAT THERE WERE NO NATIVE PEOPLE IN COMMERCIAL KITCHENS, VERY FEW WOMEN, AND IN CULINARY SCHOOLS THEY WERE TEACHING UP AND COMING CHEFS THAT NATIVE PEOPLE DIDN'T MAKE A

CONTRIBUTION, THAT AMERICAN CUISINE WASN'T HALF NATIVE, IF NOT MORE. SO, I THINK THE JOURNEY STARTED A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY THAN ROXANNE'S JOURNEY BUT AS I BEGAN TO RESEARCH WHAT ARE NATIVE FOODS, WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON, HOW DID WE TRADE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, WHAT WERE THOSE FOODS AND REALLY BREAKING IT DOWN INTO A HISTORIC CONTINUUM FROM THE PRECONTACT TO THE FIRST CONTACT, TO THE GOVERNMENT ISSUE, TO NOW. >> YOU MEAN GOVERNMENT ISSUE COMMODITIES? >> I AM TALKING ABOUT RELOCATION. MY TRIBE WAS RELOCATED. >> WHAT IS YOUR TRIBE? >> KIOWA. FORCED RELOCATION; WE WENT FROM BISON CULTURE TO OKLAHOMA AND THE GOVERNMENT GIVING US SEEDS AND SAYING PLANT. AND WHILE THAT IS SOMETHING WE CAN LEARN, IT WASN'T INHERENTLY WHO WE WERE. AND, THIS DISRUPTION WITH FOOD

AND THE KNOWLEDGE SURROUNDING FOOD AND LAND IS VERY DIFFICULT IN TERMS OF A HISTORY OF NATIVE PEOPLE AND THEIR FOODS. WE HAVE 566 FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBES. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM KNOWS HOW TO MAKE FRY BREAD SO THE GOVERNMENT SUCCEEDED. THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE STATE RECOGNIZED TRIBES. >> THEY SUCCEEDED BECAUSE THAT IS WHITE FLOUR. >> WHITE FLOUR AND LARD. >> PRETTY MUCH THE WORST KINDS OF THINGS. >> SUGAR ON TOP OR THE BASIC INDIAN TACO, AND WHERE WE ARE NOW IS WHAT I AM CALLING THE NEW NATIVE. THE NEW NATIVE AMERICAN CUISINE IS GOING BACK TO THE FUTURE. WE GO BACK IN HISTORY TO MOVE FORWARD. WE RECLAIM WHAT IS OURS. WE TELL IT IN OUR OWN VOICE. WE TEACH YOUNG CULINARY STUDENTS HOW TO BE NATIVE CHEFS AND COOK THEIR NATIVE FOODS. AND IN EVERY RESTAURANT, EVERY GAMING FACILITY, ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND WE ENCOURAGE OTHER

CULTURES TO DO THE SAME THING. >> TALK ABOUT THE KIND OF FOODS -- YOU WENT BACK TO THESE PRE-CONTACT FOODS. WHAT ARE THEY? WE HAVE THIS LOVELY DISPLAY. WHAT ARE THESE PRECONTACT FOODS? WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT. >> IT WAS WHAT WAS IN OUR ENVIRONMENT AT THAT TIME. I COULD GIVE YOU A ROUGH IDEA OF LIKE THE ELK, DEER, RABBIT, BUFFALO, FISH THAT WERE HERE, DIFFERENT BIRDS, DIFFERENT RODENTS. INSECTS AND THEN THE CROPS THAT WERE GROWN. >> CORN. >> CORN, BEANS AND SQUASH. AMORETH IS ONE WE FORGET, BUT THAT WAS VERY MUCH PROMINENT IN THIS AREA AT THAT TIME. THEN ALL THE WILD HERBS AND STUFF THAT WE WERE PICKING, ROOTS, NUTS. >> I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU MADE A TRAIL MIX. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE IN IT? >> ONE OF THE STAPLES WHEN WE WERE GOING INTO THIS DIET AND WE COULDN'T EAT ANY OUTSIDE FOOD, WE WERE USED TO FAST LIFE STYLE AND SNACK FOOD AND

SO WE HAD TO THINK OF THINGS THAT WE COULD EAT ON THE ROAD AND THAT WERE ALSO KIND OF SWEET BECAUSE WE WERE ALL GOING THROUGH DETOX, MOSTLY OF SUGAR. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE CAME UP WAS THIS TRAIL MIX WHICH IS MADE OUT OF PUMPKIN SEEDS AND CURRANTS AND YOU COULD ADD SUN FLOWERS OR PINON NUTS, THAT IS A NICE ADDITION TO IT AND IT IS A NICE SNACK FOOD. >> LOIS, I KNOW THAT YOU INCORPORATE CONTEMPORARY FOODS IN WITH NATIVE FOODS AND YOU HAVE A BLUE CORN MUSH AND BERRY COMPOTE. WHAT IS THE RESULT OF COMBINING NATIVE FOODS AN TRADITIONS WITH MORE CONTEMPORARY -- WHAT IS THE BENEFIT? >> AS A CHEF, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE ARE DOING IS WE ARE TAKING EUROPEAN CULINARY TECHNIQUES IN A MODERN KITCHEN. A GOOD EXAMPLE WOULD BE, DO I KNOW HOW TO GRIND CORN ON THE

GRINDING STONES THAT HAVE BEEN IN MY FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS? YES. DO I DO THAT EVERYDAY FOR ALL OF THE FOODS? NO, WE HAVE MODERN MACHINES AND APPLIANCES, CUISINART, FOOD GRINDERS, SO, I INCORPORATE SOME OF THE MODERN TECHNIQUES FOR USING FOOD AND THEN THE PRESENTATION. I THINK AS NATIVE PEOPLE WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ARTISTS AND WE SEE THAT IN THIS BEAUTIFUL POT. WE SEE IT IN THE JEWEL LIKE COLORS OF OUR CORN. WE SEE IT IN THE WAY WE DRESS. WE SEE IT IN EVERYTHING. AND, IT IS ALSO IN OUR FOOD. SO, HOW WE PRESENT IT, HOW WE DESIGN IT, IS ALSO ART. WE USED TO PAINT OUR PONIES WHEN WE WOULD RIDE, YOU KNOW, LIKE WARRIORS TO GO HUNTING. WE USED TO PAINT ALL OF OUR POTTERY AND DESIGN OUR BEAUTIFUL REGALIA AND WE CAN DO THAT SAME THING WITH FOOD. AS A CONTEMPORARY CHEF, I AM BRINGING IN THAT ARTISTIC ELEMENT AND ENCOURAGING STUDENTS TO HAVE THE SAME

THING. ALL OF US CAN HAVE THE SAME RECIPE. WHAT WE DO WITH IT MAKES US EACH OUR INDIVIDUAL ARTIST. SO, YOU KNOW, THE TRAIL MIX, ROXANNE IS DOING IT ONE WAY. I MIGHT SAY, WHAT OTHER WILD BERRIES COULD I ADD. IT IS THE SAME THING. WE ARE JUST DOING IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY. >> ROXANNE, YOU ALSO HAD SOME FAMILIAR RECIPES LIKE BLUE CORN PANCAKES, FRIED GRASSHOPPERS. WERE THOSE TASTY? >> THEY ARE TASTY IF YOU COOK THEM RIGHT. YOU HAVE TO CATCH THEM WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG. WHEN THEY GET BIG, THEY GET CHEWY. THEIR LEGS ARE A LITTLE CHEWY. >> OKAY, I AM WILLING TO TRY. >> DID YOU GIVE UP CHILE? >> YES. CHILE WAS NOT HERE WHEN THE SPANISH ARRIVED. THE SPANISH BROUGHT IT UP THROUGH MEXICO. AND SO WE HAD TO GO OFF OF BASIC THINGS THAT WE THOUGHT CHILE, LIKE FRY BREAD, LIKE COFFEE.

ALCOHOL. YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE THINGS, NO. >> ARE YOU STILL ON THAT STRICT -- >> I AM NOT ON THE FIRST PART BECAUSE WE WERE GUINEA PIGS. WE WANTED TO SEE SCIENTIFICALLY WHAT IT WAS DOING MEDICALLY TO OUR BODY. SO, DURING THAT FIRST THREE MONTHS, WE WERE VERY STRICT. AND THEN SOME OF US STAYED ON PRETTY HARD CORE FOR AS LONG AS WE COULD. AND WE WOULD GO ON AND OFF DEPENDING. WHEN YOU'RE TRAVELING IT IS HARD TO FIND THESE FOODS. BUT, FOR ME, IF POSSIBLE, I EAT THIS WAY ALL THE TIME. >> YOU HAVE BOTH TAUGHT CHILDREN ABOUT NATIVE FOODS, AND TAUGHT THEM HOW TO COOK IT. WHAT HAS BEEN THE REACTION? I AM THINKING A KID IS LIKE I COULD HAVE A FRIED GRASSHOPPER OR A TWINKIE. >> WELL, WE DO A NATIVE AMERICAN KIDS CAMP AND WE WORK ON A CURRICULUM, WRITING A

SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR INDIAN EDUCATION AND WE TEACH CHILDREN HOW TO CUT VEGETABLES, MAKE STEW AND GRIND CORN AND HOW TO MAKE MUSH, HOW TO BOIL THE BERRIES TO MAKE IT INTO A DESERT. THEY LOVE IT. I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN YOU CREATE A PRIDE IN THE FOODS THAT ARE TRADITIONAL, AND YOU TEACH SKILLS, CHILDREN GROW UP LEARNING, YOU KNOW, AND YOU KNOW YOU'RE A SUCCESS WHEN KIDS SAY, I HAVE TO SAVE THIS. CAN I HAVE ANOTHER ONE? CAN I SAVE IT. I HAVE TO SHOW MY MOM. AND THEN WHEN MOM COMES TO PICK THEM UP, THEY SAY, MOM, LOOK WE MADE THIS PUDDING. IT IS A NATIVE AMERICAN PARFAIT. IT IS CORN MUSH WITH BERRIES AND WE ARE DOING THE SAME THING AS WHAT THEY WOULD SEE A YOGURT PARFAIT BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE YOGURT. IF YOU WANT TO THINK YOU COULD MILK A WILD OX TO GET CHEESE

OR BUTTER, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. WE DIDN'T MILK BISON. WE DIDN'T HAVE DAIRY. WHEN WE SEE ALL THE COMMERCIALS THAT SAY YOU NEED YOGURT FOR PRO-BIOTICS, FOR 9,500 YEARS WHAT DID NATIVE PEOPLE DO? WE USED OUR NATIVE FOODS. AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE BRING THAT, BRING THE STORIES, WE BRING THE FOODS AND I THINK KIDS ARE SPONGES AND I THINK IT IS AN AMAZING PROCESS. >> DID THEY LIKE THE GRASSHOPPERS? >> SOME OF THEM BUT YEAH. >> WE CAN'T GO BACK TO PRECONQUEST WORLD OR TIME SO HOW DO YOU HOPE THAT INCORPORATING THESE FOODS INTO OUR DIET NOW CAN HELP US IN THIS MODERN WORLD? >> OBVIOUSLY WE LIVE IN A MODERN AGE NOW BUT WE CAN EAT THIS WAY. SO, IN A WAY WE CAN GO BACK.

BUT, WITH A CONSCIOUSNESS -- WITH A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO DO THAT BECAUSE IT IS A RECONNECTING TO PLACE AND CULTURE. AND IT DOESN'T MEAN EVERYONE SHOULD EAT THIS WAY. I BELIEVE, YOU KNOW, I KNOW EVERYONE IS INDIGENOUS TO SOMEWHERE AND IT IS MORE ASKING THE QUESTION, WHERE ARE YOU FROM ORIGINALLY ON THIS EARTH? WHAT DID YOUR BODY ADAPT TO FOOD-WISE BECAUSE OF THAT ENVIRONMENT THAT YOU COME FROM AND THERE IS A CONNECTION THAT HAPPENS. SHE JUST TOLD THAT STORY BEFORE WE CAME IN HERE ABOUT HER GOING TO RUSSIA AND THAT CONNECTION. >> I KNOW YOU JUST CAME BACK FROM RUSSIA. TELL ME ABOUT THAT. REAL QUICK. >> SO I DO WHAT IS CALLED CULINARY DIPLOMACY, DIPLOMACY THROUGH FOOD, AND WE DID SHIP MANY INGREDIENTS FROM HERE FOR THE RUSSIANS. THEY HAD WHITE CORN BREAD FROM

SANTA ANA PUEBLO AND BLUE CORN BREAD AND BLUE CORN POSOLE, WHITE CORN POSOLE, TAMALE. WE HAD TO TEACH THEM NOT TO EAT THE OUTSIDE, THE CORN HUSK BUT I THINK THE BIGGEST MESSAGE -- THERE IS TWO SORT OF THEMES THAT COME UP. ONE, FOOD IS A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE. WE ARE ALL INDIGENOUS TO SOMEWHERE AND AS THEY TASTED THE FOOD, ONE OF THEM WAS THE BOILED BERRIES AND BOILED IN THE PECTIN AND THE BERRIES MAKES IT ALMOST GELATINOUS AND HARDENS. AND ONE OF THE YOUNG STUDENTS SAID MY GRANDMA COULD HAVE MADE IT BUT WE WOULD HAVE SERVED IT WITH SOUR CREAM, SO THERE IS DEFINITELY A DAIRY CULTURE. THE MESSAGE IS WHAT DID YOUR GRANDMOTHER MAKE AND WHAT DID SHE NOURISH YOU WITH AND HOW DO YOU RECLAIM THAT? WHEN SOMEONE GOES TO A PLACE, AND ROXANNE IS RIGHT, PLACE INSTEAD OF TRYING TO EAT ANOTHER WORLD CUISINE OR ANOTHER CULTURE'S CUISINE,

WHAT IS YOUR CUISINE? WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DID YOUR ANCESTORS COOK AND I KNOW WHEN I TRAVEL THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO EAT. PEOPLE COME TO NEW MEXICO FOR THE CULTURAL EXPERIENCE AND THEY WANT TO EAT THE FOODS OF THIS PLACE. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO EAT A MARYLAND CRAB CAKE IN NEW MEXICO? YOU WANT TO GO TO MARYLAND TO EAT THAT, SO HERE WHAT DO WE HAVE AND WHAT CAN WE SHARE THAT IS INHERENTLY INDIGENOUS AND PEOPLE WANT THAT. PEOPLE ARE READY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING AND TALKING. IT HAS BEEN GREAT. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US. >> APPRECIATE IT. >> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE. THE FINAL TOPIC THIS WEEK IS SANCTUARY CAMPUSES. SINCE DONALD TRUMP BECAME PRESIDENT ELECT, THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW IMMIGRATION POLICY MIGHT CHANGE DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION. PRESIDENT OBAMA CREATED A DACA PROGRAM, DEFERRED ACTION FOR CHILDHOOD ARRIVALS. ORDER, AS YOU MIGHT REMEMBER. SOME YOUNG PEOPLE BROUGHT TO

THE U.S. AS CHILDREN WERE ELIGIBLE TO SIGN UP FOR LEGAL PROTECTION FROM DEPORTATION WHICH ALLOWED THEM TO GO TO SCHOOL AND WORK, BUT DACA PROTECTION COULD BE UNDONE ONCE MR. TRUMP TAKES OFFICE. NOW SOME STUDENTS AND COLLEGE FACULTY ARE ASKING ADMINISTRATORS TO DECLARE COLLEGES SANCTUARIES FOR DACA STUDENTS AND THEY WANT ADMINISTRATORS TO NOT COOPERATE WITH IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS. >> THE IDEA OF SANCTUARY CITIES AND CAMPUSES IS A VERY HOT POLITICAL ISSUE. INTERESTING, IN YOUR MIND, WHAT IS THE UPSIDE AND DOWN SIDE OF BECOMING A SANCTUARY CAMPUS, FROM A STUDENT'S POINT OF VIEW? ARE THEY REALLY THAT PROTECTED AS A SANCTUARY CAMPUS. >> I THINK TO DECLARE YOURSELF A SANCTUARY CAMPUS SENDS A POWERFUL MESSAGE TO THE THEIR SIDE, THAT YOU SUPPORT THEM IN THE WAYS THEY WOULD HOPE FOR. I THINK GARY CARRUTHERS MADE AN INTERESTING STATEMENT. HE HAS CHOSEN NOT TO MAKE NMSU A SANCTUARY CAMPUS BUT HIGHLIGHTED THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PRIVACY PROTECTIONS IN

PLACE FOR STUDENTS THAT WOULD MAKE IT RATHER DIFFICULT FOR ICE AGENTS, FOR INSTANCE, TO SWAGGER ON IN AND START LOADING PEOPLE INTO TRUCKS; WHATEVER. BUT, I THINK, THE QUESTION OF IS THAT ENOUGH, IT IS REALLY A SHIFTING QUESTION UNDER A NEW PRESIDENT BECAUSE SOME OF THE PROTECTIONS THAT WE SEE ARE LIKE DACA, UNDER EXECUTIVE ORDER, SOME ARE POLICIES WITHIN HOMELAND SECURITY AND OTHER AGENCIES, AND SOME ARE THE PRODUCT OF LOCAL PRACTICE, YOU KNOW. SANTA FE, FOR INSTANCE, SAYS WE ARE A SANCTUARY CITY. THAT MAKES IT MUCH EASIER FOR THE COLLEGE OF SANTA FE -- IS IT CALLED THAT STILL? >> SANTA FE COMMUNITY COLLEGE. >> TO SORT OF RE-EVALUATE. I WILL SAY I TOOK A LITTLE LOOK AT THE RULES THAT GOVERN STUDENTS PRIVACY TO INFORMATION AND THERE IS A HOMELAND SECURITY EXCEPTION FOR FERPA BUT MOST OTHER

AGENCIES, ALL OTHER AGENCIES, ARE NOT ABLE TO -- >> YOUR OLD ALMA MATTER, NEW MEXICO STATE, IS IT A PROXIMITY ISSUE BECAUSE OF LAS CRUCES, DIFFERENT THAN IN SANTA FE. WE ARE CLOSER TO THE BORDER, POTENTIALLY MORE STUDENTS UNDER DACA. >> I THINK IT ARGUES THE OPPOSITE; RIGHT? THIS IS NEW MEXICO. THE STATE FLAG AND WHAT IS ACTUALLY ON THAT FLAG. THIS IS A LAND GRANT UNIVERSITY THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY FOUNDED IN THE DAYS WHEN WE -- WHEN THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND -- REMEMBER THE BORDERS WERE CROSSED BY A LOT OF FOLKS. IT IS INTERESTING WE TALK ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW AND CIVIL -- THIS IDEA WE ARE GOING TO GO AFTER PEOPLE FOR COMMITTING THIS CRAZY CIVIL ACT WHICH IS TRYING TO GET AN EDUCATION, TRYING TO BETTER THEIR FAMILY AND THEIR COMMUNITY. AND WE JUST HAD THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS TAKING LIVES AND WE

HAVE A PRESIDENT NOW WHO SAYS I CAN GET AROUND TAXES AND THAT IS OKAY, I CAN HAVE HUGE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST. BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE EXERCISING -- WHO, BY THE WAY, ARE FROM THIS PART OF THE WORLD, BASICALLY EXERCISING AGAIN A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT, I AM GOING TO ABIDE BY THE LAW, I AM GOING TO GET AN EDUCATION, I WANT TO FEEL SAFE, I DON'T WANT TO WORRY THAT MY MOM OR MY SISTER OR MY KID IS GOING TO BE TARGETED. I DON'T CARE WHAT MR. CARRUTHERS THINKS, FORMER GOVERNOR CARRUTHERS THINKS ABOUT THIS, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEPORTED IN REALLY SKETCHY SITUATIONS, AT WORK AND SCHOOL. SO IT SEEMS TO ME IF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO CANNOT -- ALL THE INSTITUTIONS IN THE STATE CANNOT SAY, LOOK, WE ARE DIFFERENT, WE HAVE A DIFFERENT HISTORY, WE ARE GOING TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE DOING WHAT WE TELL EVERY AMERICAN TO DO, GET AN EDUCATION, YOU KNOW, CONTRIBUTE TO YOUR COMMUNITY, DO SOMETHING GOOD WITH YOUR

LIFE. IF WE CAN'T DO THAT IN NEW MEXICO STATE, I AM SUPER DISAPPOINTED. I AM DEFINITELY MAKE MY VOICE HEARD AS AN ALUM. ONE OF THE MOST BORDER RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS IN THE COUNTRY IS AT NEW MEXICO STATE, WHERE I HAD MY FIRST JOB. THEY STUDY THIS ISSUE. THEY GET IT AND HERE WE ARE -- WE HAVE A PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY GOING TO SAY, YEAH, WE KNOW IT IS NEW MEXICO, WE KNOW IT IS THE FLAG INSTITUTION AND WE ARE ALL ABOUT U.S. MEXICAN RELATIONS AND CULTURE AND HISTORY, BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING SPECIAL. >> UNM IS NOT ON BOARD WITH THIS IDEA SO FAR. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THEY ARE GOING. WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> I AM OKAY WITH THAT, BUT THERE ARE BIGGER ISSUES HERE. THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH IMMIGRATION ISSUES FOR, I DON'T KNOW, AS LONG AS I HAVE BEEN ALIVE AND WE HAVE DONE NOTHING. WE HAVE DONE NOTHING. IT IS NOT WITHOUT SYMPATHY FOR THESE STUDENTS WHO ARE AFRAID THAT THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE THEIR EDUCATION, BUT THERE ARE OTHER ANSWERS.

AND I AM READY TO START TALKING ABOUT THEM. LET ME THROW ONE OUT BECAUSE, CHILDREN WHO ARE BROUGHT HERE AS THEIR PARENTS BROUGHT THEM HERE, AND THEY HAD NOTHING TO SAY WITH THIS. SO, WHY CAN'T WE WORK TO, AS THEY CROSS THE STAGE TO GET THEIRS DIPLOMA, ISSUE THEM CITIZENS AND MAKE THOSE SAME CLASSES AVAILABLE TO CHILDREN WHO ARE HERE BY BIRTH BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM. WE HAVE OTHER OPTIONS. WE SEEM VERY NARROW ON THIS BUT THE FLIP SIDE OF THIS IS, I AM NOT SURE, AND I AM NOT AT UNM ANYMORE, THAT IS MY ALMA MATTER, I DON'T REMEMBER THAT ICE WAS OR BORDER PATROL WAS IN LOOKING FOR PEOPLE. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT, BUT I ALSO DON'T REMEMBER CARING VERY MUCH WHETHER OR NOT THE UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATION MADE ME FEEL REALLY SAFE AND COZY. I WAS JUST WORRYING ABOUT GETTING TO CLASS. >> THEY WERE DIFFERENT TIMES, COULD BE DIFFERENT NOW. DANIEL, A MAN ABOUT THE WHOLE

STATE, GREW UP SOUTH BUT LIVE NOW IN RIO RANCHO. IS IT BETTER FOR NEW MEXICO TO HAVE THIS KIND OF A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE SANCTUARIES FOR PEOPLE. WE HAVE SANTA FE DECLARING ITSELF A SANCTUARY CITY ON TOP OF THEIR SCHOOLS. DOES IT WORK OUT BETTER FOR NEW MEXICO TO HAVE THIS -- >> I THINK IT IS A BAD MESSAGE TO SEND. SAYING THAT WE ARE GOING TO ENFORCE AND LET PEOPLE ENFORCE SOME OF THE LAWS BECAUSE WE LIKE THEM AND WE ARE GOING TO BE AGAINST SOME BECAUSE WE DON'T THINK THEY ARE COMFORTABLE. I THINK THERE IS NO DOUBT, NO DOUBT IN THIS CONVERSATION THAT OUR IMMIGRATION POLICY IS FLAWED, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT OUR PROCESS OF BECOMING A LEGAL CITIZEN OR LEGAL IMMIGRANT IS ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS. I MEAN, PEOPLE SHOULDN'T TAKE FOUR, FIVE, SIX YEARS TO BE ABLE TO COME HERE LEGALLY AND WORK OR GO TO SCHOOL OR TRY TO ADVANCE THEMSELVES. WE ARE A COUNTRY OF IMMIGRANTS. ALL THOSE SAYINGS RING TRUE BUT PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY ARE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS FOR A LONG TIME. AND AT SOME POINT WE HAVE TO

REALIZE, EITHER THIS COUNTRY MAKES A DECISION, WHICH I THINK CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING THE CHANGE THAT I DON'T THINK -- THAT THE PEOPLE NECESSARILY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AGREE WITH WHAT ERIC AND I ARE DEBATING. WE ARE CLEARLY ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE ISSUE. EITHER WE MOVE TOWARDS TOTALLY OPEN BORDER COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE EBB AND FLOW MOVEMENT FROM CANADA DOWN TO SOUTH AMERICA INCLUDING U.S. AND EVERYTHING, OR WE ARE NOT. I JUST DON'T THINK THAT OUR ECONOMY AND OUR COUNTRY, THE WAY IT IS SET UP, CAN MAINTAIN THESE INVISIBLE BORDERS THAT JUST MOVE AND HAVE THIS STUFF GOING ON. THEY DID AND THERE IS NO DOUBT THEY DID BACK IN THE DAY WHEN PEOPLE CAME ACROSS FOR FARMING AND RANCHING AND PEOPLE MOVED AND FAMILIES DID WORK, BUT IT IS A DIFFERENT SOCIETY TODAY AND I THINK AT SOME POINT WE HAVE GOT TO FIX IMMIGRATION PROBLEM. THE ANSWER ISN'T THUMBING YOUR NOSE AT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SAYING WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE RULES ARE, WE ARE GOING TO DECLARE OURSELVES IMMUNE. TO SOME EXTENT, FORMER GOVERNOR CARRUTHERS IS RIGHT

BECAUSE THE ONE THING I SAY YOU HEAR FROM DONALD TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S RESPONSE HAS BEEN, IF YOU DON'T PLAY BY THE RULES I AM GOING TO TAKE THE MONEY FROM YOU AND I DON'T THINK ANY UNIVERSITY IN NEW MEXICO CAN SURVIVE -- >> THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE, UNFORTUNATELY. THANK YOU GUYS. GOOD STUFF TODAY. >> I AM GENE GRANT. THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEW MEXICO INFOCUS. WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EFFORT TO STAY INFORMED AND ENGAGED. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK,