Crossing; 104

Thank you. to the Special Projects production. And now your host, Jeremy Hoholla.

As we've seen all week, the Minutemen have called attention to the problem of illegal immigration along the border. But at the same time, their presence has polarized the community's response to their civilian patrols. Now here with us tonight is legal observer with the ACLU Ray Ibarra and State Director of the New Mexico chapter of Minutemen Core Bob Wright. They will join us shortly, but first, our panel in their own words. Claudia Gavata speaks for the ACLU. It is, it's like a trophy when they find migrants. It's this big achievement that, you know, they're out there on the border hunting migrants and we caught one. That's what it is for them. They don't offer them any type of help, no aid, no water. These people are out there dehydrated and they just sit there cheering each other on for having caught one. They haven't had any apprehensions yet, had one miss last night, but that'll get better. It's potentially very dangerous.

I mean, you probably know they're all armed. They're all carrying weapons. They have their night vision gear. They're ready for war. That's what it is for them. It's like they're time to place soldier or hunter and they have all this high-tech equipment that, you know, they're using out in the desert to track these people who are coming here to work. So, yeah, I mean, when they say they're going to apprehend people, it is very, it's scary for us. Well, it's not really an apprehension because the minute men, of course, do not detain apprehend or interfere in any way with the passage of anyone. Basically, when we spot the illegals, we simply call Border Patrol and direct Border Patrol to them. And, you know, they do, they address the whole terrorist activity that the borders are too chorus, that terrorists are coming through, the drugs, all that. They'll talk about that for a little while. And then after, you know, they get past that, then they start talking about, oh, look at these people.

They're coming here. They're ruining our environment. They're taking over our country. They're not assimilating. They're speaking Spanish. They don't want to speak English. And then that's what the conversation becomes about that these people, these people who, you know, they're not American and they're coming over. They're taking over, and that's their fear. And that's when you realize that that's the reason they're at the border, not because, you know, Homeland Security is not doing its job or because the drugs are filtering in. It's because they don't want Latinos to come into this country and take over, so they say. You know, and we have a problem in separating the issue of immigration from security. You know, the Minutemen are not about immigration. The Minutemen are about secure borders. As far as we're concerned, this, the immigration problem we're facing in America today is a symptom of that insecure border. You secure the border. The immigration problems all this hell. Minutemen are out here because they're against people who they believe are different than them, right?

So they are afraid of this different community, people who speak a different language, people who don't look like them. And that's what this, that's what this movement is about. The Minutemen project is about them trying to keep out people who are different than they are. If that paper you're holding in your hand said, National Guard to deploy the border, under the conditions that they have detained powers for border patrol, not down here to Bill Fences or pick Porta Potty, but down here to enforce border law. I'd pack my stuff right now and I'd follow you guys. We'd leave. That's our goal. And now we begin our discussion. The first question to Mr. Wright, how big of a threat is illegal immigration do you feel is to the United States? Well, I think that the illegal immigration is a symptom of the unsecured border. And an unsecured border is a tremendous threat to the United States. The amount of the illegal that are coming across are quite capable of masking terrorists or anything else it wants to come across.

With that border being so unsecured, we see tons and tons of drugs coming across there every year. And I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that terrorist materials can come across there in that same manner. So in that respect, I think illegal immigration represents that kind of a threat to the United States. And that threat to the United States, that's the reason why that your group went along the border. That's right. Minimum civil defense corps is dedicated to seeing our border secured, secured to where, by whatever means it takes, to where whoever comes into this country has to come through the legal ports of entry with a proper documentation. Well, it's interesting now what we hear on TV about the reasons for being out there. Well, when you look back at the original call for Minimum in, I'll put out on their website by James Gill Christian Chris Simcox, it was because the flood of illegal aliens is ruining our culture and America will write about how lacks immigration policy led to the destruction of our society as we know it. So the true motivation of the Minimum in was to stop Latinos

who were coming into our society and changing our culture. And by their wording, destroying our culture. So that's the true motivation behind this Minimum project. And that's why so many people are upset because they're really mainstreaming the idea of hatred towards Latinos. Is it a better way to stay with that? All of what you just heard is absolutely false. Chris Simcox started the civil homeland defense in the wake of 9-1-1. He started it absolutely in response to the terror attacks. And it was started in order to bring security to those borders. There is no anti-Latino feeling in the men at men. There isn't a very big anti-illegal immigration, not immigration, nobody, according to our figures, 20% of the men are Latino. There are many, many. That's a far-fetched one. We realize you have a crystal ball, right? I don't think you have a figure. So I think you'll have a figure. I'm just pressing people in the bathroom. I was out there in April for.

No. I'm going to talk with you. Let's hold on here. Let's let's let each. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to talk to you. You're going to have to listen. I'm going to finish reading. I'm going to finish reading. Bob, that's for sure. Now, like I said, 20% of our members are Latino. The executive national director is Latino. We're not the only group out there. There are Latinos for immigration reform. There's a lot of them. It's not a racial issue. This is a national issue. And it's a security issue. And Ray can stamp his foot and put his hands on his hip and scream, race this, race this, race this. All he wants. But it doesn't make it true. And that's what we're supposed to be here for. He has to get to the truth. It matters. No. Yeah. We should definitely make every effort to get to the truth. And when I mentioned the original call, put out in the Miniman website. That's on the web. We have it printed out. We can show it to anybody who asks. And then you wonder, why did Bill Parley quit the Texas Miniman? Well, he quit. He said there was racist within the Miniman. He didn't want to be a part of that. Why did the area nation post the call on the website, listing the Miniman project as a white pride event? Why did the Southern Poverty Law Center document the fact that there were members from the National Alliance who were

Miniman volunteers? If that doesn't have anything to do with race, and I'm not sure, you know, what does? When you have the area nation of national alliance participating in your event. They were not participating in that as an out and out line. I don't care what they put on their website. It is what we do out there. What our motivations are. You keep coming up with this national alliance that nobody ever heard of. I'm still trying to figure out how ACLU got these white races to post for pictures. They know we're in the databases. Nobody remembers them being there. The lines were open. There were a lot of people up and down there. There was a lot of ACLU types. These people weren't part of the Miniman project as far as they know, Ray. I don't remember seeing them. I was on the notful line in Arizona. There is no racist motivation here. There is a very strong need to secure our borders. Okay. The issue of racism, whether the Miniman or racists are not and whether it's about border security or not. That's just an issue that you guys are going to have to agree to disagree on for this moment during this panel. Let's talk about what your group did.

Your group sent legal observers to watch the Miniman patrol the border. What's wrong with somebody pointing a set of binoculars down south to Mexico and just watching the border? Well, we were out there because we were very concerned. As I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of activity on the white supremacist websites that they were going to come down in bag and tag in Mexican, but it was going to be the highlight of their white nationalist career. I mean, that was the motivation for being out there knowing that people were putting on the website that it's now time for the white man's revolution to start. It's okay, this is why we have to be out there to ensure that these individuals don't violate anybody's human rights. Now, I'm not saying that every single Miniman is a racist. Definitely not. I've been out there 30 days in April, 30 days in October, had many, many conversations, many pleasant conversations, and a lot of people were very nice to me. But when you get at the motivations of these individuals, it still boils back to the really upset that their society is changing, and while they'll go to their graves, assured that they're not racist. When you say my society is changing because other people

are coming in, that automatically implies that those people are inferior and you're there for superior. Mr. Wright, do you worry about society changing with the influx of illegal immigrants crossing the border? To the extent that I feel like we're beginning to balkanize, that we are not the melting pot we weren't to wear, some of that is due to the massive amount that has come over. Some of it is due to the fact that most of them are illegal, and that they're not assimilating into the culture, the way they should be. The way, if a nation wants to survive as a nation, they must assimilate because the cultures must actually blend. It cannot be a force blending, it has to be one that works. It's worked in New Mexico for 400 years. As far as, it's a little hard having grown up in New Mexico where the Spanish, Indian, Mexican culture is so much a part of New Mexico culture. Does it bother some people somewhere if we're all in a sudden their whole neighborhood changes?

I'm sure it does. It did when the rust belt collapsed and we had so many people come down from the east. So I don't think that's really all that unusual. Does your group feel threatened by the ACLU legal observers? Oh, I don't know if threatens the right word. We had a couple of incidences this past October where some of the raised volunteers, I think, got a little out of hand in one incident where, in my opinion, they really scared the snot out of an old man on the highway. And I think that was a little out of line. It quit after the happened after rain. I talked in rain and his boss talked. It quit. But it did happen. Things didn't get out of hand. I think the men have a really good record. We keep hearing about all this abuse and stuff. If it was happening with a spot light that's been on the men and there's no way it could be hidden. I'm not quite sure what raised the agenda is. I hope he's simply mistaken. He's been out there enough. He does know.

He talked the first day at Nocco. The first day you were there at Nocco. We had a pleasant conversation. If the ACLU would come out there and do what they say they want to do, the men and men would just love to have them because we don't do anything wrong. And they could protect our rights as well. And originally on the Nocco line, that is pretty much what it appeared that they did was just simply observed. Since then, they've taken a more active role in trying to thwart the men and trying. And in my opinion, observers, they are active participants in helping illegals avoid being caught. So, in effect, they are actively helping illegal activity. Yes, how I look at them. Mr. Rebutt, are you trying, is your group trying to thwart the process? No, I mean, most definitely. I don't want overlook Mr. Wright's response to your question. I think it's exactly the point that I'm trying to make. These individuals are afraid because people coming across the border aren't assimilating into their culture. And they really want people to be like them because they think they're superior to those who are coming across the border.

And that is why the Minimum Project exists. That's what the original call was. And that's what you just heard from Mr. Wright. And as far as... Oh, that is not what you heard from Mr. Wright. And as far as us being out there, I think earlier... What Mr. Wright said... Mr. Uvarra, Mr. Wright said that we cannot have our country vulcanized. And that we are going to have... Well, let's talk about Mr. Uvarra. Well, I'm Mr. Wright. If you could just let Mr. Uvarra finish a little bit of your response. Oh, okay. Yeah, go ahead. Because one of the incidents that we did see out there, I remember being out there about two in the morning and a board patrol agent knocks on my window. So he rolled... I rolled it down, I started talking to him, and he tells me, I'm really glad that you guys are out here because these Minimum men are crazy. This is from a board patrol agent. It's not an ACLU legal observer saying this. And I said, really, what happened? He says, well, last week, a board patrol agent stopped a Minimum man and asked him if he had migrants in his car, and he said, no, he didn't have any migrants in his car. And the board patrol agent looked around and saw two people in the back,

and he said, well, who are these two people in the back of your car? And he said, well, I was just taking them to get some food to help them out because I'm being a humanitarian. And the board patrol agent tells me, we don't know where he was taking them or what his motivation was. He could have been taking them out to the middle of a desert to do what he wanted to and bury them. And a Minimum man was arrested. So maybe Bob can respond to that about the Minimum being arrested. Sure. No problem. We had a Minimum and it was coming up. Highway 81, coming up from the middle of Wilson. And two guys walking on their own. He stopped. I said, they wanted to ride to Cheetah, both spoke English. He assumed they were from the farms down there. He gave him a ride into Cheetah. And then during the course of the drive, while he was visiting with him and talking to him, it became clear to him that they were illegal, he panicked. They call him orbital. Let's go out and change topics here. There's been talk of giving the National Guard the power to contain illegal immigrants. How do you feel about them, Mr. Vara? Obviously your group probably does not feel

definitely the correct way to go about this. I mean, it was scary. It was a midway through the month. The National Guard showed up out there. Well, that was a regular army. Yeah, I was driving down and I saw a tank on the side of the road. And I'm from the border. I'm born in Douglas, Arizona. One block from the International Fence. Now live in El Paso, five blocks from the border. And to see a tank in my backyard was outrageous, outlandish. And then a few nights later, I see a group of about 30 people who were stopped on the side of a tank. So I'm getting out to go and talk to them to make sure everything was okay. And all of a sudden, a man with an assault rifle dressed in military fatigues run over and says, excuse my friends, what the hell are you doing out here? You have no right to be out here. This is a US citizen on US soil. And he's telling me, get the hell out of here. And this guy's got a machine gun. All army fatigues next to a tank. I got out of there because I didn't want anything to do with it. And that's an example of what happens

when you put the National Guard in the military and the border. These people are trained for war. They're trained to kill people. They don't know the cultural sensitivities and the reality of life on the border. And you just put somebody down here. It's just the potential for violence like we saw with Ezekiel Hernandez who was shot by a Marine back in 1996. Just a right one. Mr. Wright, what do you feel about that? He mentioned these troops are trained for war. Do you believe it's to the point where it is war on the border that the US government does need to give the power to the military to detain illegal immigrants among the border? Yes, I think. But it really has legitimate concerns along the lines. They need proper training in order to be able to do that. We are not in a shooting war with Mexico. But yes, I think the only answer at this time is to put National Guard troops on the border. That is the official men at man position. I don't want it to be a permanent thing. But when you start talking walls

and 2,000 more border patrol men, you're talking 5, 6, 10, 20 years in order to get this accomplished. Now, we don't have that much time, I don't think. I do think that the military is the only sane answer. It's an organization that already exists. The infrastructure is all in place. The funding is all there. Nothing has to be created. You simply change their mission. In addition, it's a win-win for the military because much of our southern border is the same kind of ground that they'll face over in the Middle East. And it gives them real world experience in trying to spot, you know, when surgeons coming across the Syrian border and things like that. You said it's a win-win for the military. Don't you think, though, it would hurt, possibly hurt foreign relations between the United States and Mexico and on a psychological level? I mean, somehow do some damage between our relationship with our neighbor to the south? Oh, I don't know. It wouldn't be the first time we've had a military on the southern border. No, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't happen. We are facing, literally, a flood coming across that border. A flood and less regularism is crystal ball.

They have no way of knowing who these folks are. We have to get it stopped. Before, you know, we really face something truly catastrophic in this country. I do share the concerns he has with putting the military on the border. I think it's a sad, sad thing that our southern neighbor, you can see, you can keep talking about these international relations. Mexico, in effect, is that Mexico has the fifth largest economy in the world. There is absolutely no reason for these people to be coming over here in order to better their lives, except for the fact that their government is wholly and completely corrupt. And the moves that we need to be making is pressures on that government to take care of their own people and stop dumping all of their social problems, medical problems, job problems, and things like that on the United States? I think it's unfortunate that we view migration as somebody dumping their problems on us as opposed to what our countries found it on and what our labor demands necessitate right now.

And the fact is that we need labor is to come across so we can compete in the global economy. I would agree with that. You know, in our history, almost all of the waves of immigration that we saw were allowed in and encouraged in order to fill a liberty. Okay, but they came through legally. And when I say dumping these social problems, Ray, you can't deny that people, one of the, you know, large motivations for people coming up here is to get medical care. Large motivation is to get, you know, something that will help their families and stuff out. Mexico has the money to do that. It's just that they have an incredibly corrupt government. I'm not blaming those people who come here. I'm blaming that government who ranks everything off the top and steels the legacy inherities of the American people. I've asked you this question before. And yes, I was angry many at the time. But Ray, who decided that the Mexican people are not entitled to the riches of Mexico? It's their country, their resources. Why would you support a system

that forces people to come across a desert facing great danger to a country where they will be illegal? Well, they will not enjoy the full protections of the law. Instead of supporting a system that would force that government to take care of the needs of its own people, and quit, I'm sorry, dumping it on his neighbor the North. Right. I mean, you make a good point about historically, we've had the immigrants come in and do the jobs that we don't always have a specific need for immigrants. And it wasn't until 1986, where it was actually unlawful to hire somebody without the proper documents. And up until then, if you look at the history of our immigration system, it's always been relatively easy for people to come across to find work that this country needs. And it wasn't since 1993 with the militarization of the border, that there's been over 3,600 deaths of people trying to come across and work. So we have an agreement on the reality of the fact that we need workers, but we're disagreeing on how to let those people come across. The way the system is right now, people have to walk for four to five days in the desert and many of them die.

And those who don't die suffer an unbelievable amount. Yes, I agree. Let's talk about it. And Ray, that's the thing. You know, you and I agree on the human cost involved here, but the simple fact of the matter is, is that this nation or any nation cannot afford to support the problems of another nation. Well, let's talk about that, Mr. Wright. There's a lot of people here that rely on the work of people who come to this country and work for low wages. Do you support a program that would give temporary visas to immigrants that are willing to work for those low wages in this country? After the border is secure? Yes. After the border is secure? No matter what kind of a worker's program we come up with. If the border is unsecured, the illegals will continue to come and they will simply begin to work for less money than the former illegals who now have legal status. And regardless of what we do, if we legalize everybody and we give them a million bucks a piece, if our border is still unsecured, we still face that same threat

that we started this conversation with. And you know, the thing is, the men and men are not about immigration. And I understand that a lot of people are truly concerned about what they see happening to their neighborhoods and their neighborhoods changing. I think that change comes whether, like I said, I saw it in the oil field when all the Yankees came down in the 80s. You know, people were horrified at Yankees. I think it's natural. They've all assimilated now. They've changed our culture some. We've changed their culture some. That's the way it's supposed to work. Anyway, I think I digress, I apologize. What was your question? No, I think that's right on point. I mean, it's about the fear of the other, which is xenophobia. And I think we all have fears. As human beings, I think that is a natural response. And that's the issue that we're dealing with here. But in terms of, you know, what to do, you mentioned about the workers that we need here in the country. And how do we create a process to where our economy can still benefit from those workers, but there isn't that human tragedy. And that's what we're looking for right now. Okay.

I think the other thing is that there's a very real thing that the illegal is being subsidized by the, excuse me, the illegal employer is being subsidized by the taxpayer because he's not required to provide medical care to the illegal immigrants. He's not required to do a lot of things because, of course, they're illegal. And then those medical costs are shifted over to the taxpayers. You know, I mean, there's no secret about what kind of, you know, how much trouble these border hospitals owns are in. And I think that's unfair. And I think that we've got employers who are absolutely exploiting this situation. I think we've got literally millions, tens of millions of illegals in this country who are being exploited. And I'm not quite sure where the disconnect comes between groups like raise and ours. Because I think all in all, nobody wants to see anybody die on the border. Nobody wants to see people cheated out of their wages.

Nobody wants to see somebody having to work for some standard conditions. But the difference that I guess we have is how we solve that problem. Well, I mean, I would think that nobody wants private citizens who are untrained having gone through background checks on the border with guns. We have gone through background checks, right? Yeah. You know, the thing that you have to understand is that this is America. Very quickly here. This is your last research. Well, this is America. We have a right to have guns in this country. And we're exercising our rights. Why don't you represent some gun owners out there in exercising our rights under the Second Amendment? Sure. Bob right here is very quickly. Sure. He's the commander of the First Brigade in New Mexico, militia. Yes. So here we have a militia man, right, far right wing anti-big government person. On a television show, we're talking about what we should do about immigration policy. Now, where are we at in our country when we're looking to militia people to solve our immigration problem? Obviously, you both disagree on that issue. Well, thank you, gentlemen, for joining us here on this panel. Thank you.

Appreciate it. Thank you for your opinions. And thank you for listening. Join us tomorrow night for the final installment of Crossing As We Discussed the Potential Political Solutions to this very complex problem of illegal immigration. Until then, I'm your host at Jeremy Hohola. Good night. Mm. Mm.