New Mexico in Focus; 1143; Jimmy Santiago Baca

FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION. >> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO InFOCUS ... POET AND AUTHOR JIMMY SANTIAGO BACA ON THE POWER OF WORDS. >> A LOT OF KIDS TODAY IN SCHOOL, THEY DON'T HAVE A PURPOSE TO LEARN HOW TO USE LANGUAGE, SO ULTIMATELY IT BECOMES WEAPONIZED AND STUFF. BUT THAT WASN'T MY CASE EARLY ON. >> AND THE LINE LOOKS AT A PAY RAISE CONTROVERSY IN SANTA FE. NEW MEXICO InFOCUS STARTS >> WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO InFOCUS. LATER THIS HOUR, THE LINE WILL LOOK AT NEWS AROUND THE 2018 ELECTIONS AND DEBATE GOVERNOR MARTINEZ'S PUSH TO MOVE AHEAD WITH A STUDENT RETENTION PLAN DESPITE LEGISLATIVE PUSHBACK. NOW, IF THERE ARE ANY ISSUES YOU WANT US TO TALK ABOUT, GET IN TOUCH WITH US AT NewMexicoInFocus.org. YOU CAN ALSO CONNECT WITH OUR STAFF ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER. JUST SEARCH FOR NEW MEXICO

InFOCUS. NOW, LET'S GO TO THE LINE. >> LAST WEEK, SANTA FE MAYOR ALAN WEBBER ASKED CITY MANAGER BRIAN SNYDER TO RESIGN OVER PAY RAISES MR. SNYDER HAD APPROVED FOR 37 STAFF MEMBERS JUST DAYS ELECTION. NOW, CITY EXECUTIVES HAD ISSUED THE 10% TO 15% RAISES FOR SELECT CITY EMPLOYEES WITHOUT THE CITY COUNCIL'S VOTE -- UH-OH. THE RAISES, WHICH HAVE NOW BEEN HALTED, WOULD HAVE COST SANTA FE ABOUT $400,000 OVER TWO FISCAL YEARS. THE PAY RAISE CONTROVERSY ALSO LED TO THE RETIREMENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES DIRECTOR LYNETTE TRUJILLO AND MAY LEAD TO MORE RESHUFFLING IN THE CITY'S ADMINISTRATION. MEANWHILE, MAYOR ALAN WEBBER IS IN SOME HOT WATER OF HIS OWN OVER HIS WATER BILL. OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS ARE HERE TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES AND OTHER TOPICS OF THE DAY. I'M JOINED AT THE TABLE THIS WEEK BY ATTORNEY SOPHIE MARTIN. CHRISTINE SIERRA, SHE'S HERE. SHE'S A RETIRED UNM POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR. TOM GARRITY OF THE GARRITY GROUP PR IS WITH US. AND WE'RE PLEASED TO HAVE ANDY LYMAN, REPORTER FOR NM POLITICAL REPORT. ANDY, STAYING WITH YOU, THE MAYOR INITIALLY CALLED THE

ISSUE A COMMUNICATIONS BREAKDOWN. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE 37 PEOPLE GETTING A RAISE. YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THEY WORK ON A SOFTWARE PROGRAM, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE TEMPORARY, THERE'S A LOT OF LITTLE WEIRD LANGUAGE HERE. BUT HE DID REVERSE HIMSELF. WHEN YOU FIRST READ ABOUT THIS, WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF IT? HAD HE JUST GOTTEN AHEAD OF HIMSELF A LITTLE BIT AND NOT HAD THE FACTS OF THE MATTER, AND THEN HE HAD TO BACKTRACK? IT WAS A DIFFICULT DECISION FOR HIM. >> IT ALMOST SEEMS LIKE IT WAS, YOU KNOW, HE'S NEW IN THE OFFICE AND A CITY COUNCIL CAME TO HIM AND NOT THAT THIS IS BAD, BUT IT DIDN'T GO THROUGH THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSES TO GO. AND I THINK THAT HE, BEING A NEW MAYOR, KNOWS THAT HE HAS TO KIND OF MAKE A GOOD IMPRESSION AND MOVE QUICKLY ON THESE THINGS. YEAH, I THINK HE HAD TO MAKE A SNAP JUDGMENT. >> CHRISTINE, THERE'S A LOT OF TALK FROM MR. WEBBER AND OTHERS, OF COURSE, ABOUT TRANSPARENCY AND STUFF, BUT HE DID ACT. ONCE HE DID SEE IT FOR WHAT IT WAS AND WAS CLUED INTO THE 1992 CITY COUNCIL ORDINANCE, HE HAD TO DO SOMETHING. >> RIGHT, BUT IT WAS A MISSTEP, AND WHEN YOU HAVE A NEW MAYORAL ADMINISTRATION, YOU'RE BEING LOOKED AT WITH

THERE'S NOW A FULL-TIME MAYOR, SALARIED, HIRING A CHIEF OF STAFF, THINGS THAT HADN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE, SO THAT RAISES THE EXPECTATIONS AND PUTS YOU UNDER A MICROSCOPE. IT ALSO HAD SOME FALL-OUT IN TERMS OF WHAT OTHER CITY. EMPLOYEES THOUGHT, YOU KNOW. GRUDGES, CONCERNS ABOUT NEW CITY COUNCILORS WILLING TO SAY, HEY, WHAT ABOUT US. SO IT HAD SOME FALL-OUT. BUT I WOULD JUST ADD THAT I THINK, FRANKLY, THAT WAS JUST A MISTAKE AND HE CORRECTED IT. >> SURE. >> THE WATER POLICY, THE WATER ISSUE TO ME IS MORE EGREGIOUS, IF NOT EVEN WORSE, BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TO NOT FLAUNT CONSERVATION OF WATER, AN AGENDA THAT MAKES SENSE FROM DEBBIE JARAMILLO, WHO PUT THAT ON THE CITY'S AGENDA OF SUSTAINABILITY. MAYORS HAVE TRIED TO HOLD TRUE TO THAT, AND WEBBER'S VIOLATION OF CONSERVATION OF WATER -- AND, I MEAN, HUGE

GALLONS OF WATER USED. I THINK THAT'S ACTUALLY MORE EGREGIOUS. >> LET'S GO THERE. LET ME SWING TO TOM ON THAT, TOO. WHAT CHRISTINE IS REFERRING TO WAS THOSE REPORTS OUT THAT SHOWED, IN THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN, THAT THE NEW MAYOR'S HOME IN SANTA FE, AND LAST JUNE, IN PARTICULAR, 2017, HAD USED 53,000 GALLONS OF WATER IN A MONTH TO THE TUNE OF OVER A THOUSAND DOLLARS TO BASICALLY WATER AN ORCHARD. AND THAT'S FINE. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. THERE ARE SOME BUCKS UP THERE. PEOPLE LIVE LIKE THAT SOMETIMES. BUT AGAIN, HE ASKED THE FOLKS OUT THERE IN THE REST OF THE CITIZENRY OF SANTA FE TO CONSERVE. IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING GOT A LITTLE MESSED UP HERE. DID HIS STAFF LET HIM DOWN? DID HE LET HIMSELF DOWN? BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE A REPORTER WAS GOING TO CHASE THIS DOWN. IT WAS SO OBVIOUS THAT THEY WERE GOING TO LOOK AT THIS. >> AND I WOULD GUESS THAT HE PROBABLY WASN'T AWARE OF WHAT THE WATER USE WAS. I MEAN, YES, HE'S AWARE THAT HE HAS ORCHARDS AND HE HAS A LOT OF LAND AND HE HAS A THAT JUST IN AND OF ITSELF IS GOING TO USE A LOT OF

WATER. SO I DON'T THINK THAT HE PROBABLY WAS FULLY COGNIZANT OF TALKING ABOUT CONSERVATION, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT HE WAS KIND OF FOLLOWING HIS OWN. BUT SINCE THAT HAS COME TO LIGHT, HE HAS ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY REINFORCE IT, AND I BELIEVE THAT HE IS GOING TO PARE DOWN. WITH A HOUSE THAT SIZE ON A PIECE OF LAND THAT SIZE, THOUGH, YOU JUST DON'T CUT 50% ALL IN ONE YEAR. IT TAKES A LITTLE BIT OF TIME OR IT BECOMES AN EYESORE. AND THEN THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT WILL GET INVOLVED AND THEY'LL SAY, HEY, YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR YARD, MISTER. BUT I THINK IN THE CATEGORY OF POLITICS MAKES STRANGE BEDFELLOWS, THE FORMER CITY MANAGER, I UNDERSTAND, HE PROVIDED HIS RESIGNATION FROM THAT POSITION, BUT NOW HE'S THE WATER DIRECTOR, WHICH IS GOING TO REALLY PROVIDE SOME ADDED KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE MAYOR. SO I THINK IT WAS A SLIGHT MISSTEP FOR THE MAYOR, FROM

MY PERSPECTIVE, BUT I THINK THE WAY HE'S ADDRESSED THE OTHER ISSUES, HE'S WON FRIENDS WITHIN THE CITY. >> LET ME CHALLENGE YOU A LITTLE BIT ON THE WORDING THERE ABOUT SLIGHT MISSTEP. I HEAR YOU ON THE MISSTEP, BUT SLIGHT? I MEAN, WE'VE GOT TWO THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE THAT POTENTIALLY COULD BE CHALKED UP TO JUST REALLY NOT EITHER UNDERSTANDING THE SITUATION BETTER OR NOT CARING. BECAUSE THE WATER BILL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OVER A THOUSAND A MONTH, TOM, TO PAY FOR WATER. SURELY HE MUST KNOW THAT WAS WELL BEYOND MOST SANTA FE FOLKS PAY FOR WATER. IT WAS A TRAP, IN ESSENCE, THAT IF HE DIDN'T GET THIS RIGHT, IT WAS GOING TO DO EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED HERE IN THE NEW MEXICAN, AND COME BACK AND BITE HIM. A LITTLE BEYOND SLIGHT, IS THAT FAIR? >> WE COULD SAY -- TO ME, IT'S A DISTRACTION. YEAH, IF HE'S TALKING ABOUT CONSERVATION AND DOESN'T CONSERVE HIMSELF, YEAH, THAT'S AN ISSUE. BUT IN THE LARGER SCHEME OF THINGS, HE'S PROMISED TO FIX IT, AND I THINK THAT HE WILL. TO ME, THERE'S MUCH BIGGER ISSUES FOR THE CITY OF SANTA FE THAN THE MAYOR'S

WATER USE. AND THE FACT THAT HE'S ACTUALLY PAYING HIS WATER BILL IS KEY, SOMETHING THAT THE FORMER MAYOR, JAVIER GONZALES, WHICH I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW, HE DIDN'T PAY HIS WATER BILL AND THE CITY CUT HIM OFF. >> NOT JUST ONCE, EITHER. SO THERE'S HIGH SENSITIVITY, SOPHIE, IN SANTA FE BETWEEN WATER AND MAYORS UP THERE. ACTUALLY QUITE EFFECTIVE AT WATER CONSERVATION. THEY DO A BETTER JOB THAN ALBUQUERQUE DOES, AND HAS FOR SOME TIME. I THINK, THOUGH, THAT I'M GOING TO AGREE TO A CERTAIN EXTENT WITH TOM, I THINK THAT THERE'S NO WAY THAT A PROPERTY THE SIZE OF THE MAYOR'S IS EVER GOING TO HIT WHAT HE'S BEING COMPARED TO, WHICH IS THE AVERAGE WATER CONSUMPTION FOR ALBUQUERQUE. SO WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE COMPARED TO PROPERTIES THE SAME SIZE? IS HE BUSTING PAST THAT?

OR PERHAPS LIKE A PER ACRE AMOUNT, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENT YARDSTICK THAT NEEDS TO BE USED THERE. AND I REALIZE THAT I SOUND LIKE AN APOLOGIST, I'M JUST LIKE, I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE DATA IN A SLOPPY WAY. BUT THE OTHER THING THAT I APPRECIATED AND NOTICED ABOUT THE WAY HE HANDLED THE WATER ISSUE IS THAT IF NOTHING ELSE, HE USED THIS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HIGHLIGHT THE RESOURCES WITHIN THE CITY THAT ANY SANTA FE CITIZEN CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF. SO YOU CAN HAVE AUDITS DONE OF YOUR WATER CONSUMPTION, YOU CAN LOOK AT, ARE THERE LEAKS WITHIN YOUR SYSTEM, ETC., WHICH IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE'S IDENTIFIED. SO IT COULD HAVE BEEN THAT HE SAID, WELL, THIS IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, I'M MR. MONEYBAGS, BACK OFF, I CAN PAY MY THOUSAND DOLLARS. BUT INSTEAD, HE SAID, LOOK, HERE ARE THE RESOURCES THAT ARE CITY WIDE RESOURCES, THAT ANYONE CAN USE, THAT I, TOO, AM USING. SO I APPRECIATED THAT. I DO THINK, TO THE OTHER ISSUE, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THESE RAISES WITHIN THE CITY GOVERNMENT THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, THEY SEEMED TO HAVE BEEN KIND OF SNUCK IN RIGHT BEFORE HE WAS

ELECTED, AND SO I WOULD SAY THE RAISES, THEMSELVES, THE FACT OF THE RAISES, THEMSELVES, SHOULDN'T BE PINNED ON HIM. WHAT HE NEEDS TO ANSWER FOR IS HOW HE REACTED TO THOSE. AND WHEN IT WAS POINTED OUT TO HIM, I APPRECIATE THIS, WHEN IT WAS POINTED OUT TO HIM THAT THE PROPER PROCESS HAD NOT BEEN FOLLOWED, HE REVISED WHAT HE WAS SAYING. ALL OF IT IS A REMINDER THAT SANTA FE IS MOVING FROM THE WEAK MAYOR SYSTEM TO THE STRONG MAYOR SYSTEM, AND WE SEE THEM RIGHT NOW STRUGGLING WITH HOW THAT IS SUPPOSED TO WORK, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT, WHO WILL HIRE WHOM, ALL OF THAT KIND OF STUFF, AND IN THAT CONTEXT, I THINK WE HAVE TO EXPECT THAT THE COUNCIL WILL MAKE MISTAKES, STAFF WILL MAKE MISTAKES, MAYOR WILL MAKE MISTAKES, AS THEY LOOK TO PUT TOGETHER A MORE EFFECTIVE SANTA FE GOVERNMENT. >> LET ME GET TO CHRISTINE ON THAT. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT? THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT. >> THAT WAS ONE OF MY POINTS, THAT THINGS ARE IN TRANSITION IN TERMS OF THE TYPE OF CITY ADMINISTRATION. BUT I HAVE TO TAKE ISSUE WITH THIS ARGUMENT THAT THE ISSUE WITH THE MAYOR AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE

SCARCITY OF WATER IN THE SOUTHWEST, THE CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT OF OUR SOUTHWESTERN CITIES -- GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT HAVE BEEN ISSUES IN SANTA FE, VERY CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ARGUMENTS OVER PUBLIC GOODS, AND THAT IS VERY SERIOUS. WHAT THIS REFLECTS IS A TENSION AROUND THAT, BUT ALSO THE NECESSITY FOR THAT TO BE AN AGENDA ITEM AND TO BE A SERIOUS POLICY CONCERN. IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE COMPARISONS OF THIS WEALTHY, VERY AFFLUENT PRIVILEGED PERSON AND HIS OVERUSE OF WATER, BUT IT IS RATHER THE COLLECTIVE AND HOW WE ADDRESS IN A MORE EQUITABLE FASHION A WATER SCARCITY ISSUE. >> I APPRECIATE THAT POINT, BECAUSE THERE'S LEADERSHIP ISSUES ON THIS. IF WATER IS TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY HERE, YOU HAVE TO BE AN EXEMPLARY EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU EXPECT EVERYBODY ELSE TO BE.

IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAT -- LET ME ASK ANDY THIS. JUST BECAUSE HE CAN AFFORD THE OVER THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH AND HAVE A LOUSY IRRIGATION SYSTEM, WELL, WE ALL HAVE LOUSY IRRIGATION SYSTEMS, WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? HE JUST LET THIS GO FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS AND MONTHS AND MONTHS, AND LET THE WATER JUST KIND OF GO JUST BECAUSE HE HAD THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT. IS THAT A LEADERSHIP ISSUE FOR YOU? >> THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT STRUCK ME WITH YOU MENTIONED, THAT HE SORT OF -- ONE IS THAT HE DIDN'T SEEM TO ANTICIPATE THIS WAS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE. HE KNEW THAT HE WAS PAYING A THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH, AND BEFORE HE GAVE THIS CHALLENGE TO THE CITY, HE DIDN'T KIND OF FIX HIS OWN STUFF. AND THEN, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY HE HAS, BUT I KNOW HE'S GOT SOME, SO IT KIND OF STRUCK ME THAT HE HADN'T FIXED THIS YET UNTIL SOMEBODY CAME AND SAID, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? AND HE SAID, OH, YEAH, WE'VE BEEN MEANING TO DO THAT. WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE IT'S NOT THAT HE'S TRYING TO SAVE MONEY FOR IT, HE JUST HADN'T GOTTEN AROUND TO IT YET. >> I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

SANTA FE IS A CITY THAT REGULARLY PUBLISHES IN THE PAPER LISTS OF WATER SCOFFLAWS. IT'S A PERENNIAL DISCUSSION IN THE CITY. WOULD AGREE. >> BUT IF HE FIXES IT THE WAY THAT HE FIXED CITY HALL AND THOSE ISSUES, THE ISSUES OF THE RAISES, IT'S A MOOT POINT A MONTH OR TWO MONTHS FROM NOW. >> INTERESTING, UNLESS SOMEONE WANTS TO BRING IT UP AT A LATER TIME. >> MONTHS FROM NOW, HE'S GOING TO BE WAITING FOR SOMEBODY TO BRING IT UP. OH, BY THE WAY, ASK ME HOW I'M DOING WITH WATER. >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT. BUT I SAY AGAIN, IT'S NOT A BAD THING TO HAVE ORCHARDS. IF HE HAS THE MONEY TO DO IT AND HE CAN DO IT -- I'D HAVE AN ORCHARD IF I HAD THE MONEY TO DO IT. >> WHICH MAKES A GOOD POINT, WHICH IS, AND I'M EXTRAPOLATING FROM IT, BUT PERHAPS THE BEST OUTCOME FROM THIS WOULD BE FORWARD-THINKING PROGRESSIVE GOVERNMENT LEVEL ACTION ON THE ISSUE OF WATER. >> RIGHT, EXACTLY. >> BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SUSTAINABILITY AND PLANS TO GET THERE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. WE'LL SEE HOW THAT PLAYS

OUT. IN JUST A MINUTE, WE'LL DISCUSS SOME NEWS IN THE NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR'S RACE. >> NEW MEXICO InFOCUS IS ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK. UPDATES ON UPCOMING SHOWS AND TELL US WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE TOP NEWS STORIES OF THE WEEK. THEN, TUNE IN BECAUSE WE MAY SHARE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE >> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE. THE DAY BEFORE FORMER DEMOCRATIC GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE PETER BENAVIDEZ ANNOUNCED HE WAS DROPPING OUT OF THE RACE, HE WAS HIRED BY ANOTHER DEMOCRATIC MR. APODACA HIRED MR. BENAVIDEZ AS A CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN FOR $4,000 A MONTH IN ADDITION TO PAYING HIM TEN GRAND FOR AN E-MAIL LIST. NOW, MR. BENAVIDEZ SAYS HE MADE THE DECISION TO DROP OUT OF THE RACE BEFORE THIS ARRANGEMENT WITH MR. APODACA, BUT THE TRANSACTION HAS DRAWN CRITICISM FROM ANOTHER DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, STATE SENATOR JOSEPH CERVANTES, WHO SAYS THE DEAL 'SMACKS OF A DEAL.' CHRISTINE, MR. BENAVIDEZ

ENDORSED MR. APODACA ON THAT DAY, BUT THE TIME-LINE IS FUNKY HERE. LIKE, THE DAY HE DROPPED OUT OF THE RACE, THE DAY BEFORE HE GETS THIS $14,000 CHECK, AND HE WONDERS WHY EVERYONE IS LOOKING AT THIS SORT OF WEIRDLY. HOW DID IT SMACK YOU WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE TIME-LINE HERE? >> THE SITUATION I THINK IS A LOSE-LOSE BOTH FOR BENAVIDEZ AND JEFF APODACA. DEMOCRATIC PARTY STATE CONVENTION, PREPRIMARY CONVENTION, WHEN BENAVIDEZ GOES UP ON STAGE. THERE HAD BEEN RUMORS ALREADY GOING THROUGH THE AUDIENCE, WAS HE PULLING OUT, WAS HE NOT, AND SO ON. HE ANNOUNCES -- FIRST OF ALL, HE PUMPS HIMSELF AS THE ONLY TRUE PROGRESSIVE IN THE RACE, AND THEN HE TURNS RIGHT AROUND, STAYING ON STAGE, AND SAYS, BUT YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO GIVE UP MY CAMPAIGN AND I ENDORSE JEFF APODACA, AND PEOPLE ALL AROUND ME ARE GOING, WHAT IS GOING ON? IT WASN'T VERY EFFECTIVE. IT WAS AWKWARD. IT SMACKED OF OPPORTUNISM.

AND AT THAT POINT, WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE PAYMENTS. SO I WOULD SAY THAT IT WAS A LOSE-LOSE. I DON'T KNOW THAT ACTUALLY MR. APODACA HAS GAINED THAT MUCH, AND I THINK HE MAY BE VERY WELL ON THE DEFENSIVE REGARDING WHAT I THINK IS A MISSTEP. >> WHO IS GOING TO BE ON THE DEFENSIVE, MR. APODACA? >> MR. APODACA. MR. BENAVIDEZ, I'M DISMISSING THAT SITUATION. >> ANDY, FOUR GRAND A MONTH IS ABOUT THE NORMAL RATE FOR THIS KIND OF A JOB, BUT HE CALLS IT WORKING FOR PEANUTS. IT'S AN AMAZING THING. AND HE JUST MADE TEN GRAND CLEAN FROM AN E-MAIL LIST. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS MAN HAS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. BUT, HOW DOES THIS STRIKE YOU? WHO WINS AND LOSSES HERE, AS CHRISTINE JUST MENTIONED? IS THERE ANOTHER BOUNCE HERE FOR MR. APODACA? IS THIS STORY NOT QUITE OVER, AS THEY SAY? >> IT'S HARD TO SAY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S COMING NEXT. I KNOW IT DOESN'T LOOK GREAT. I WOULD EXPECT THAT SOMEBODY IN EITHER ONE OF THOSE

CAMPAIGNS WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THIS STUFF IS GOING TO SHOW UP IN THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REPORT AND LET'S BE PREPARED FOR THIS, LET'S KNOW WHAT IT'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE. ON THE SURFACE, IT DOESN'T LOOK GREAT, BUT JEFF APODACA IS ALLOWED TO HIRE A COMMUNICATIONS PERSON, AND THE PEANUTS COMMENT, FOR PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO WHO DON'T MAKE A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY -- I KNOW THAT PETER BENAVIDEZ ALSO IS SELF-EMPLOYED, AND I THINK I LOOKED AT HIS FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE AND HE DIDN'T MAKE A TON OF MONEY THE YEAR BEFORE. I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK HE MADE ABOUT $30,000 THE YEAR BEFORE. AND IF YOU'RE CONSIDERING THIS PAYMENT IS THE ONLY THING HE'S GOING TO GET, THEN MAYBE IT IS PEANUTS. BUT IF IT'S GOING TO BE A CONTINUED -- HE'S SET TO MAKE ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT IF HE KEEPS GETTING THE SAME PAYMENT. >> THAT'S RIGHT. INTERESTING POINT THERE. APPRECIATE THAT. TOM, FOUR GRAND A MONTH LEADING UP TO THE ACTUAL ELECTION, THAT'S NOT A BAD HALF YEARS WORK. NOT BAD AT ALL, AS A MATTER OF FACT. BUT CHRISTINE MADE AN INTERESTING POINT. I'M WONDERING IF YOU THINK

MR. BENAVIDEZ IS OFF THE HOOK HERE BY ANNOUNCING HE WAS DROPPING OUT OF THE RACE AND ENDORSING MR. APODACA, THAT CAME SOME WEEKS BEFORE THIS REVELATION. IS HE OFF THE HOOK? WAS HE OFFICIALLY OUT OF THE THING AND SO TAKING THE MONEY IS NOT THAT BIG A DEAL AS I'M MAKING IT OUT TO BE? >> NO, IT IS A DEAL. I APPRECIATE HOW CHRISTINE KIND OF DESCRIBED THE BIG REVEAL. I MEAN, HE KIND OF TURNED OUT TO BE A PROGRESSIVE CAPITALIST, WHICH IS NO LONGER AN OXYMORON. BUT IT IS A BIG DEAL. HE GAVE BASICALLY THOSE RUNNING AGAINST JEFF APODACA 14,000 REASONS TO BE AGAINST HIM. NOT THAT THEY WERE EVER GOING TO WIN THEM OVER OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. BUT PETER IS A SKILLED COMMUNICATOR, HE KNOWS HIS WAY AROUND. SO IT'S GOING TO KEEP COMING UP, BUT I THINK IT'S MORE OF A FLASH IN THE PAN AS OPPOSED TO A LONG SUSTAINING ISSUE. >> INTERESTING POINT THERE. SOPHIE, I WANT TO TAKE A BIT OF A TWIST HERE WITH THE SAME CAST OF CHARACTERS. THE MARIJUANA DEBATE HAS ENTERED THE GOVERNOR'S RACE. INTERESTING.

MR. APODACA IS PRO BOTH RECREATIONAL AND EXPANDING MEDICAL MARIJUANA. MS. LUJAN-GRISHAM SAYS IT NEEDS MORE STUDY. STEVE PEARCE SAYS, I DON'T THINK SO. THERE'S A LOT OF INTERESTING THINGS OUT THERE. ANYBODY GETTING A NOSE OUT AHEAD IN THIS RACE BECAUSE OF THE MARIJUANA ISSUE ALONE? >> I'M NOT SURE NECESSARILY. I THINK THAT PROBABLY WHAT CANDIDATE IS SPEAKING EFFECTIVELY TO THEIR BASE. SO STEVE PEARCE'S BASE IS NEVER GOING TO BE LIKE, LET'S ALL LIGHT UP. AND MS. LUJAN-GRISHAM IS GOING TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, I THINK, TO PIVOT IN EITHER DIRECTION WITH THE MESSAGING THAT SHE'S USED. AND MR. APODACA, THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HIM TO REALLY PLACE HIMSELF OUT THERE, BECAUSE I THINK GOING BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE AND RELATING THE TWO, I THINK HE'S REALLY STRUGGLED WITH FINDING ISSUES THAT OVERCOME THE KIND OF MACHINATION TYPE LEVEL OF STUFF THAT'S BEEN GOING AROUND HIS CAMPAIGN AND SOME OF THE OTHER CAMPAIGNS THAT ARE TRYING TO FIND A PLACE IN THE TOP TIER. SO I THINK THAT'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY FOR HIM WITH A PORTION OF THE ELECTORATE.

WE KNOW THAT MARIJUANA IS BECOMING MUCH MORE OF A POSITIVE ISSUE. WE SEE, FOR INSTANCE, MORE SENIORS, WHO ARE AN EFFECTIVE AND LARGE VOTING BLOCK, STARTING TO USE MARIJUANA, AND THEIR FRIENDS ARE USING MARIJUANA. >> THAT'S RIGHT. THE POLLING IS INTERESTING ON THIS. >> FOR HEALTH REASONS, THAT'S RIGHT. AND SO I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A SHIFT OF MARIJUANA FROM THE SORT OF THE REEFER MADNESS, GOODNESS, WE WOULD NEVER SUPPORT THAT, TO A DIFFERENT POSITION. I DID WANT TO THROW IN THERE, I, TOO, HAVE AN EXCELLENT E-MAIL LIST. >> IT CAN BE WORTH AT LEAST FIVE GRAND. >> IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO ME THAT IT MIGHT BE WORTH TEN GRAND, BUT IT'S A REALLY GOOD LIST. >> YOU KNOW, ALLOW ME TO SAY SOMETHING OUT LOUD. WHAT POSSIBLE E-MAIL LIST, CHRISTINE, COULD ANYONE COME UP WITH THAT ANYONE ELSE DOESN'T HAVE ALREADY? >> OR CAN'T PUT TOGETHER THEMSELVES. >> OR CAN'T PUT TOGETHER THEMSELVES FOR $10,000. >> AND BY DISMISSING BENAVIDEZ, I FOUND THAT HE DID NOT REVEAL TRUE

PROGRESSIVE VALUES IN THAT HICCUP, OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, IN THAT STANCE. TAKING THIS MONEY, AND THEN GOD KNOWS IF HE'S AN EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATOR. I DON'T KNOW. >> LET ME ASK YOU THIS. DIFFERENT SUBJECT, SAME PEOPLE. WE'VE GOT A POLL OUT BY THE TORRANCE GROUP FOR MR. PEARCE WHICH SHOWS HE'S IN A NECK-AND-NECK RACE WITH MS. LUJAN-GRISHAM. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT POLL? I KNOW POLLS EARLY ARE DIFFICULT TO KIND OF GET OUR ARMS AROUND. >> SURE. THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS, A LOT OF VARIABLES, A LOT OF FACTORS THAT ARE GOING TO KICK IN. BUT WHAT I THOUGHT WAS, IT WAS GOOD FOR BOTH SIDES, BOTH PARTIES, BOTH CANDIDATES TO BE REMINDED THIS IS GOING TO BE A HIGHLY CONTESTED RACE, AND I THOUGHT ABOUT IT. OKAY, THE ADVANTAGES THAT STEVE PEARCE HAS, AND MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM SHARES SOME, THEY BOTH HAVE GREAT NAME RECOGNITION, WIDELY KNOWN AS

LONG-STANDING ELECTED OFFICIALS, THEY BOTH HAVE MONEY TO SPEND. THE ONE DIFFERENCE IS THAT STEVE PEARCE HAS NO PRIMARY OPPOSITION, AND MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM DOES. SO SHE HAS TO EXPEND SOME OF THOSE RESOURCES IN THIS PRIMARY. BUT I ALSO THOUGHT OF THE LARGER CONTEXT, THE MID-TERM ELECTION AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU KNOW, THERE SEEMS TO BE EVIDENCE OF THIS ANTI-TRUMP SENTIMENT CERTAINLY INVIGORATING DEMOCRATS. WE'VE SEEN CONTESTED ELECTIONS THAT ARE SURPRISING IN RED STATES, AND DEMOCRATS SEEM TO BE ENTHUSIASTIC IN HOPING FOR REGISTRATION TURNOUT. ON THE OTHER HAND, REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL IN TARGETING STATE LEGISLATURES AND THE GOVERNORSHIPS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LET UP. SO I THINK WHAT IT IS IS A GOOD REMINDER THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE A DOG FIGHT, AND WHOEVER GETS THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION, AND I'M ASSUMING PEARCE WILL RUN AGAINST PEARCE, THAT POLL DOESN'T SURPRISE ME. I THINK IT'S HIGHLY

PREDICTIVE OF THE KIND OF RACE THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE. >> INTERESTING POINT THERE. ANDY, I WONDER IF WE'RE ALL SORT OF LINED UP ALREADY BECAUSE OF THE STUFF THAT CHRISTINE MENTIONED. THE NATIONAL POLITICS EFFECT THIS, WE'VE ALL SORT OF DRAWN OUR PLACE IN CERTAIN CAMPS. THE REASON I BRING THAT UP IS THIS POLLING ONLY HAD, AND AGAIN, IT'S AN EARLY POLL, BUT 8% UNDECIDED. THAT'S A SHOCKINGLY LOW NUMBER FOR THIS FAR OUT FROM AN ACTUAL ELECTION. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? THERE'S USUALLY ABOUT TWICE THAT THIS TIME OF YEAR. THAT'S AMAZING TO ME. >> THERE'S A LOT OF STUFF THAT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT WITH SOME OF THESE. LIKE YOU SAID, EARLY POLL. IT'S ALSO AN INTERNAL POLL THAT HIS CAMPAIGN DID ITSELF. THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL'S DAN McKAY POINTED THIS OUT, THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE A LITTLE CAUTIOUS OF THOSE INTERNAL POLLS THAT THEY DO. I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT'S A BAD POLL, BUT THERE'S PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES TO CHANGE YOUR METHODOLOGY, WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO, HOW YOU'RE TALKING TO THEM. THERE'S ALL THESE THINGS. >> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. IN YOUR SENSE OF THINGS AS THE WAY THEY'RE SHAPING UP, IS THIS A TWO-PERSON RACE AT THIS POINT, OR DO WE HAVE

SOME SURPRISES DOWN THE ROAD, DO YOU THINK? >> IT'S HARD TO SAY. IT SEEMS RIGHT NOW, LOOKING AT IT, EVERYTHING IS KIND OF SKEWED AFTER OUR LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. IT'S HARD TO REALLY SAY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. BUT THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE THE OPPOSING FACTORS THERE. YOU'VE GOT TWO OPPOSITE PEOPLE, AND PEOPLE ARE LINING UP. AND THEN YOU'VE GOT APODACA TRYING TO SQUEEZE IN THE MIDDLE THERE SOMEWHERE. >> EXACTLY RIGHT. TOM, IT'S INTERESTING WITH POLLING, AND YOU GO THROUGH THIS ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS, DEPENDING ON HOW THE POLL COMES OUT, IT REALLY SETS THE CONVERSATION GOING FORWARD. NOW WE HAVE THIS, AGAIN, INTERNAL POLL, AND I APPRECIATE ANDY'S POINT THERE, THAT SHOWS WITHIN TWO PERCENTAGE POINTS. THAT SORT OF MAKES A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION AS ONE CAMP THINKS THEY'RE WAY OUT IN FRONT, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY REALIZE, WELL, MAYBE WE'RE NOT OUT AS FAR IN FRONT AS WE THOUGHT WE WERE. IS THIS GOOD FOR BOTH CANDIDATES TO HAVE, AS CHRISTINE SAID, A WAKE-UP CALL, SO TO SPEAK, HOW CLOSE IT IS? >> I WAS KIND OF SURPRISED TO SEE HOW CLOSE IT WAS, BUT LOOKING AT A POLL AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME IS LIKE FORECASTING WHAT THE WINDS ARE GOING TO BE FOR THE

FIRST WEEKEND OF BALLOON FIESTA. NOBODY HAS A CLUE. IT COULD CHANGE THE WEEK BEFORE. BUT TO ME, WITH THE SAMPLE SIZE OF 608, THERE WERE MORE QUESTIONS ON THE QUESTIONNAIRE, AND SO WHAT WERE THOSE QUESTIONS? BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY WHERE THE MEAT OF THE SURVEY IS. JUST LIKE SURVEYING DIFFERENT TOPICS, PERHAPS, DIFFERENT VOTER IMPRESSIONS, AND OF COURSE THE CROSS TABS ARE TO SEE WHICH GROUPS ARE LEANING TOWARDS DIFFERENT ISSUES. THAT'S LITERALLY, TO CALL THE FIRST QUESTION THE ICING, IT'S LIKE A VERY THIN LAYER OF ICING. I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT MORE OTHER INFORMATION THAT IF THEY WANTED TO RELEASE, I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE INTERESTED. >> WHAT AN INTERESTING GAME YOU'RE IN. I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED HOW PEOPLE REACT TO POLLING QUESTIONS LIKE THIS. SOME PEOPLE BAIL IF THERE'S LIKE A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS, THE AMOUNT OF HONESTY. IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO ASSESS. >> AND IT COULD BE A PUSH POLL, AS WELL. I MEAN, THERE COULD HAVE BEEN SOME PUSH QUESTIONS. SO LOTS OF QUESTIONS. IT'S KIND OF COOL BECAUSE IT

GIVES US SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT. I AM SURPRISED BY HOW REALLY CLOSE IT IS, BUT REALLY, WHAT WERE THE OTHER QUESTIONS ON THERE? >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT. WE'LL TO FIND OUT. WHEN WE COME BACK TO THE LINE, WE'LL LOOK AT HOW GOVERNOR MARTINEZ IS MOVING AHEAD WITH THE STUDENT >> AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO'S TIRED OF STATE EMPLOYEES WORKING IN PUBLIC RELATIONS FOLKS, USING THAT PLATFORM TO SAY THINGS LIKE POLITICAL HIT JOB? I THINK YOU WORK FOR THE STATE, I'D LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING MORE NUANCED. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT FOR A PARTY. >> JIMMY SANTIAGO BACA WAS 20 WHEN HE BEGAN FIVE YEARS OF INCARCERATION BEHIND THE WALLS OF A BRUTAL ARIZONA PRISON. HE HAD BEEN ABANDONED AS A CHILD, PLACED IN AN ORPHANAGE, AND WAS IN AND OUT OF TROUBLE BEFORE THEN. MR. BACA WAS MOSTLY ILLITERATE, BUT IN PRISON HE

LEARNED TO READ AND DISCOVERED POETRY. NOW ONE OF NEW MEXICO'S MOST CELEBRATED WRITERS, HE HAS PUBLISHED VOLUMES OF POETRY, ESSAYS, STORIES AND NOVELS. HE ALSO WORKS WITH INMATES AND AT-RISK YOUTH TO HELP THEM FIND THEIR VOICES IN WRITING. MR. BACA SAT DOWN WITH NMiF CORRESPONDENT MEGAN >> JIMMY SANTIAGO BACA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING TO NEW MEXICO InFOCUS. >> THANKS FOR INVITING ME. >> WHAT WAS THE FIRST BOOK THAT REALLY OPENED UP THE WORLD OF READING FOR YOU? >> THE FIRST BOOK? WELL, THE DICTIONARY. I MEAN, I USED TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ONE WORD -- IT'S NOT A DIFFICULT THING TO READ AND WRITE, TO LEARN TO READ AND WRITE IN SEVERAL MONTHS. IT'S NOT HARD. YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE A PURPOSE FOR IT. AND A LOT OF THE KIDS TODAY IN SCHOOL, THEY DON'T HAVE A PURPOSE TO LEARN HOW TO USE LANGUAGE, SO ULTIMATELY IT BECOMES WEAPONIZED AND STUFF. BUT THAT WASN'T MY CASE EARLY ON. IT WAS LATER, BUT EARLY ON I JUST TOOK ONE WORD, AND IT WAS SPLIT UP PHONETICALLY,

AND THEN I HAD THE LATIN ROOTS AND GREEK ROOTS, AND THEN IT JUST WENT ON AND ON AND ON. IF YOU JUST TAKE ONE WORD AND YOU FOLLOW IT, YOU'LL NEVER STOP. YOU'LL END UP, WITH ONE WORD, YOU'LL END UP STUDYING EVERY WORD IN THE DICTIONARY, BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE WORD ULTIMATELY ENDS UP CONNECTED AND REFERENCED TO ANOTHER WORD. SO I STARTED WITH ONE WORD, AND I NEVER STOPPED. THAT WAS MY FIRST ONE. IT TRIGGERS SO MANY MEMORIES. BUT THE FIRST BOOK I READ WHEN I WAS ACTUALLY CAPABLE OF READING A FULL SENTENCE, AND CAPABLE OF FOCUSING ON A PARAGRAPH, AND CAPABLE OF COMPREHENDING A PAGE, AND CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING AN ENTIRE CHAPTER, WAS TURGENEV. >> THAT'S THE RUSSIAN WRITER? >> YES. BUT THE FIRST ONE WAS A ROMANTIC, THE 19th CENTURY

ROMANTIC POETS SHELLEY, BYRON, COLERIDGE, WORDSWORTH, PEOPLE LIKE THAT. I WROTE 'WORKING IN THE DARK,' ONE OF MY EARLIER BOOKS, WHEN I FIRST READ WORDSWORTH'S ESSAY, 'LANGUAGE OF THE COMMON MAN,' I READ IT IN THE COUNTY JAIL WHEN I WAS FACING EXTRADITION CHARGES TO ARIZONA, AND I THOUGHT THAT WORDSWORTH WAS A GANG NAME. >> A GANG NAME? >> YEAH. I THOUGHT HIS MOM GAVE HIM LIKE, WORD UP. YOU KNOW, WORD UP. I THOUGHT, WORDSWORTH. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S UP, WORDSWORTH. SOMEBODY WHO USES, YOU KNOW, LIKES TO USE WORDS, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS A GANG NAME. THEN SOME GUY LATER ON EMBARRASSED ME BY SAYING, NO, YOU IDIOT, IT'S AN ENGLISH POET'S NAME. WORDSWORTH IS HIS REAL NAME. I SAID, REALLY? OKAY. >> IT'S KIND OF A COOL INTERPRETATION OF HIS NAME, THOUGH. >> THAT'S ACTUALLY HOW I APPLIED MY LEARNING. LIKE A VERB, IF YOU ASK A CHILD TODAY IN SCHOOL HOW HE LEARNS A VERB, IT'S VERY ABSTRACT. IT'S ACTION, IT'S MOVEMENT

AND STUFF LIKE THAT. I ACTUALLY LOOKED AROUND THE PRISON AND SAID, HEY, FLACCO? HE'S LIKE, WHAT? I SAID, YOU'RE THE FASTEST GUY I'VE EVER SEEN SLIDE ON THE YARD, AND I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY BE ABLE TO LIGHT A CIGARETTE, KICK THE DOOR JAMB TWICE, PLUS GRAB A FLY FLYING AROUND YOUR HEAD AND STILL LAND ON TWO FEET. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE, BRO? WHAT? YOU'RE A VERB. YOU'RE LIKE SERIOUS ACTION, HOMIE. HE'S LIKE, IS THAT BAD OR GOOD? I SAID, THAT'S REALLY GOOD, DUDE, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW I REMEMBERED WHAT A VERB WAS. AND THEN I APPLIED OTHER NOUNS, A PERSON, PLACE OR THING, RIGHT, AND I ATTACHED THAT, APPLIED THAT TO GAMBOA. HE WAS ALL 780 POUNDS. I SAID, GAMBOA, YOU'RE LIKE A REALLY HEALTHY NOUN. YOU'RE LIKE A REALLY GOOD NOUN, DUDE. WHAT'S A NOUN? IT'S A PERSON. >> WHAT WAS EDUCATION LIKE FOR YOU WHEN YOU WERE A KID? >> NONE. >> NONE? >> IT WAS ALL EMOTION.

I MEAN, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO UNDERSTAND OR INTERPRET TRAUMA. WHEN YOU HAVE AN UNCLE THAT LIKES TO GET DRUNK AND BEAT THE HECK OUT OF EVERYBODY, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE ROOTS WERE, WHAT THE CAUSE WAS, WHAT THE -- I DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THAT. ALL I KNOW IS THAT THE PERSON GETTING BEAT UP FELT TERROR, AND THE PERSON DOING THE BEATING WAS CAUGHT IN A TRAP THAT HE WAS TRYING TO RELEASE HIMSELF FROM, AND ALL I WAS ABLE TO DO WAS TO APPROACH IT EMOTIONALLY. DEEP INSIDE OF ME, I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, HOW DO I GET THIS PERSON TO A PLACE THAT'S A GOOD, SAFE PLACE. EVEN IF IT WAS AN ADULT, OR IF IT WAS A BUM SITTING IN A CORNER PLAYING AN HARMONICA, OR SOME BEAUTIFUL WOMAN IN A CORNER OF A CAFE CRYING OR SOMETHING, HOW DO I GET THAT PERSON TO A PLACE WITH LANGUAGE? IT HAUNTED ME. I THOUGHT LANGUAGE HAD POWER, BUT I NEVER DREAMED IN A MILLION YEARS IT WAS THE KIND OF POWER THAT WOULD EXUDE ITSELF ONCE I LEARNED HOW TO USE IT.

>> I KNOW YOU SAID THAT READING SAVED YOUR LIFE. HOW? >> WELL, YOU KNOW, FOR THE LONGEST TIME, GROWING UP, YOU'RE NOT VERY LITERATE, SO YOU HAVE TO FIGHT. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN EXPLAIN YOURSELF, YOU KNOW. YOU EXPLAIN YOURSELF. IT WASN'T THAT I WAS A GOOD WAS REALLY, REALLY GOOD, THOUGH. I ONLY GOT BEAT UP ONCE, AND THAT WAS BY FOUR COPS. BUT WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE LANGUAGE, YOUR ONLY RESPONSE TO THE WORLD IS TO TRY TO FORCE YOUR OPINION ON SOMEBODY THROUGH VIOLENCE. YOU FIGHT, YOU KNOW. IF SOMEBODY SAYS, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, YOU DON'T ANSWER, NOTHING, YOU STARE THEM BACK. YOU GIVE HIM A CHALLENGE. THROW THE GAUNTLET DOWN AND LET'S SEE WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME, YOU KNOW. THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG ME. YOU ASKING ME A QUESTION IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME. AND ONCE YOU HAVE LANGUAGE, YOU'RE LIKE, WHAT KIND OF A DAY ARE YOU HAVING THAT YOU WOULD ASK ME A QUESTION LIKE THAT? DOES IT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR CHILDHOOD AND THE TIME THAT YOUR MOTHER LEFT

YOU UNDER THE BUNK WHEN SHE WENT OUT TO FIND SOME HEROIN? IS THAT WHY YOU'RE DOING THIS TO ME RIGHT NOW? BECAUSE IF THAT'S THE PROBLEM, YOU CAN SIT DOWN WITH ME, BECAUSE I HAVE THE SAME KIND OF MAMA, AND WE CAN TALK. AND THE GUYS ARE LIKE, WHAT THE HELL? I MADE SO MANY FRIENDS. I HAD A WHITE RACIST NATIONALIST NAZI COME UP TO ME AND SAY -- BECAUSE I WAS REALLY GOOD AT WRITING POETRY, AND HE SAYS, YOU'RE WRITING POETRY FOR EVERYBODY, RIGHT? AND I KIND OF LOOKED AT HIM. >> THIS WAS IN PRISON? >> YEP. YOU KNOW, 25 YEARS INSTITUTIONALIZED, YOU KNOW, SO I'M WRITING, RIGHT. FROM AGE 5 TO 30, RIGHT, SOCIETY REFUSED TO LET ME OUT OF ITS CLUTCHES BECAUSE -- I MEAN, I MUST HAVE BEEN THE MOST VALUABLE KID IN THE WORLD, BECAUSE EVERYBODY KEPT WANTING TO KEEP ME, BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING ALL KINDS OF MONEY FOR ME, RIGHT. AND SO THE GUY SAYS, IT'S MOTHER'S DAY, CAN YOU WRITE ME A POEM? AND I SAID, YEAH, NO PROBLEM. BUT I CHARGED HIM FIVE TIMES WHAT I CHARGE EVERYBODY ELSE BECAUSE OF HIS NAZI AFFILIATION, RIGHT. SO I CHARGED HIM FIVE CARTONS OF CAMELS INSTEAD OF JUST ONE, AND I STARTED WRITING ABOUT HIS MOM. JUST ANY MOM, GENERICALLY.

AND HOLY MACKEREL, MAN, I WENT INTO THIS SUBCONSCIOUS LANDSCAPE WHERE I WAS FIVE YEARS OLD IN BED WITH MY MOTHER, FEELING HER TOES AND SMELLING THE HEM OF HER SKIRT, AND IT SMELLED LIKE PRAIRIE SAGE, AND FEELING HER ANKLES AND CARESSING HER FEET ON AN AFTERNOON IN ESTANCIA, IN THE WORLD OF TAJIQUE, YOU KNOW, AND I WROTE ALL THAT, AND WHEN HE CAME TO MY CELL, I SAID, HERE. HE SAID, NO, YOU READ IT, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO SAY HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO READ. SO HE SAID, YOU READ IT. SO I SAID, ALL RIGHT, AND SO I BEGAN TO READ IT, AND HIS KNUCKLES STARTED TURNING WHITE. AND IT WAS REAL WHITE, BECAUSE HE WAS PRETTY WHITE, HIMSELF, SO HIS KNUCKLES WERE REALLY WHITE WITH RAGE, RIGHT. YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID TO ME? I'LL NEVER FORGET. 'HOW DOES A MEXICAN KNOW WHAT'S IN A WHITE MAN'S HEART?' WOW. WHEN HE SAID THAT TO ME, I LOOKED AT HIM, AND I REALIZED IN THAT MOMENT THAT LANGUAGE HAD THE POWER TO CHANGE THE WORLD. NOT MY FISTS, NOT VIOLENCE,

NOT GUNS, BUT WORDS HAD THE POWER TO CHANGE THE WORLD, BECAUSE HERE'S THIS NAZI WHO HATES MEXICANS, EVEN HAD TATTOOED ON HIS ARM, AND HE SAYS TO ME, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT'S IN MY HEART? WOW. I TOLD HIM, DUDE, AND I GAVE HIM THE POEM, THE LETTER TO HIS MOTHER, AND THE NEXT DAY WHEN I WENT OUT IN THE YARD, EVERY WHITE BOY IN THE YARD WAS SAYING, HEY, BROTHER. HEY, BROTHER. HEY, BROTHER. EVEN MY OWN CHICANO HOMIES WERE LOOKING AT ME AND SAYING, WHAT'S UP WITH ALL THIS? I SAID, I WROTE HIM A LETTER, MAN. THEY'RE LIKE, SERIOUS, BRO? AND ALL THESE PEOPLE GIVE YOU ALL THIS PROPS AND RESPECT NOW? AND I'M LIKE, YEAH. SO THAT'S WHEN I REALIZED, YOU KNOW. BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE IMMUNE FROM EVEN THAT TYPE OF HONESTY, BECAUSE THE NEXT THING I DID WAS WRITE A POEM TO A JUDGE, TELLING HIM HOW INNOCENT I WAS AND THAT I NEEDED TO BE RELEASED. >> HOW DID THAT GO? >> IT DIDN'T GO WELL. HE WROTE ME BACK WITH EVERYTHING EARMARKED IN RED AND SAID, 'DON'T EVER. WRITE ME AGAIN.' SOMETIMES IT WORKS,

SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T, YOU KNOW. >> WHY DID POETRY IN PARTICULAR SPEAK TO YOU WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED LEARNING TO READ? >> EMOTION. EMOTION. I WASN'T TUTORED IN QUESTIONING AUTHORITY AND LANGUAGE. I MEAN, CLASSROOM LESSON PLANS AND CURRICULUM, IT'S ALL AUTHORITATIVE AT ITS ROOT. SOMEONE TELLS YOU WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO, AND YOU DO IT, AND YOU LEARN HOW TO READ AND WRITE AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. NOT SO WITH EMOTION. WHEN YOU WRITE POETRY, IT WASN'T THE LEXICON, IT WASN'T THE GRAMMAR, NOR WAS IT ANYTHING ELSE, NOR WAS IT THE LINEAGE OF POETRY OR THE HISTORY OF IT, IT WAS THE STRENGTH OF THE EMOTION TRYING TO GET TO WHAT YOU WANTED TO SAY. AND SO I BEGAN TO USE LANGUAGE AND CURVE THE WORDS. I BEGAN TO CURVE THE CHICANO LANGUAGE. THROUGH MY OWN UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE, I WAS ABLE TO, IN THE HEAT OF MY EMOTION, I WAS ABLE TO BEND THE WORDS

SO THAT IT REFLECTED WHAT I FELT ABOUT IT. AND WHEN I DID THAT, I WOULD THEN COME OUT INTO THE WORLD AFTER BEING COCOONED IN A POEM FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS, I WOULD BE ABLE TO COME OUT, AND IT WAS LIKE AN ENHANCEMENT OR AN ENTHRALLMENT WHEN I CAME OUT OF THAT PLACE. I WAS ENERGIZED AND I FELT STRONG AND I FELT CENTERED AND I FELT FULFILLED. AND EVERYBODY BEGAN TO BE ATTRACTED TO THAT MAGNETISM OF LANGUAGE. EVERYBODY AROUND ME STARTED HANGING OUT WITH ME, EVERYBODY STARTED FOLLOWING ME, EVERYBODY STARTED WANTING TO KNOW ABOUT WHAT I WAS THINKING, AND EVERYBODY WANTED TO KNOW IF I HAD A SOLUTION TO SOME OF THEIR PROBLEMS. IT ACTED AS A PIVOTAL FULCRUM OR A PIVOTAL EPICENTER WHERE IT AFFECTED EVERY ASPECT OF MY LIFE. LEARNING HOW TO READ AND WRITE AFFECTED EVERY ASPECT OF MY LIFE FROM THE TIME I WORK UP UNTIL THE TIME I -- EVEN IN MY DREAMS, I USED TO DREAM POETRY. >> YOU SAW REALLY HORRIFIC THINGS IN THAT PRISON. IT WAS VERY BRUTAL.

HOW DID WRITING HELP YOU DEAL WITH THAT KIND OF VIOLENCE? >> IT SENSITIZED ME TO THE AWFUL HORRORS, THE AGONY THAT PEOPLE LIVE WITH DAY-TO-DAY. IT JUST MADE ME REALIZE THAT PEOPLE LIVE IN AGONY. AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL THINGS ABOUT BEING -- LOOK, I WAS INSTITUTIONALIZED FOR 25 YEARS. I'VE BEEN OUT ALMOST 33, 34. AND ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THINGS -- PEOPLE ARE VERY MODEST AND HUMBLE IN MANY, MANY WAYS, AND I FEEL FOR THEM IN A LOT OF WAYS BECAUSE 90% OF THE PEOPLE JUST DEDICATE THEIR LIVES TO A COMPANY, AND IT'S A TERRIBLE SACRIFICE TO HAVE TO GIVE UP YOUR LIFE LIKE THAT. AND THEY CALL IT GETTING A DEGREE, AND THEY CALL IT GOING TO SCHOOL, BUT IT'S ALL CORPORATE TYRANNY, RIGHT. BUT ANYWAY, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT BEING OSTRACIZED FROM SOCIETY AND ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT

BEING EXILED FROM THE NORMS AND SO FORTH AND SO ON IS THAT YOU'RE SO HAPPY BEING REBELLIOUS. I MEAN, LOOK AT HOW HAPPY THOSE KIDS ARE IN THE STREETS WHEN THEY'RE PROTESTING GUNS AND THE MADNESS OF OWNING GUNS. LISTEN, I'VE GOT 19 BULLETS IN MY BODY RIGHT NOW AS I SIT HERE AND TALK TO YOU. I'M A POET WHO'S BEEN SHOT. AND THIS IS HOW I INTERPRET THAT. I GO GET AN MRI ONCE, I'M IN THAT MACHINE AND IT GOES THROUGH ME, AND THE WOMAN COMES OUT, AND I'VE JUST GOT MY UNDERWEAR ON, AND THE WOMAN COMES OUT AND SHE SAYS, ARE YOU SURE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY DIAMOND RINGS ON OR SOMETHING? NO. NECKLACES? NO. WELL, THESE THINGS KEEP SHOWING UP ON YOUR X-RAYS. AND IT'S A BLACK BACKGROUND -- YOU'VE SEEN X-RAYS. IT'S A BLACK BACKGROUND, AND IT HAD THESE BEAUTIFUL LITTLE WHITE BURSTS OF GRAY. AND I LOOKED UP AND I SAID, OH, NO, THAT'S JIMMY'S NIGHT SKY. THAT'S THE PLACE I DREAM. THAT'S THE GALAXY. AND SHE SAYS, WELL, WHAT ARE

THEY? I SAID, THEY'RE BULLETS. THEY'RE ALL LITTLE STARS. THEY'RE SOMEONE'S HATRED. THEY HATED THEMSELVES SO BAD THAT THEY WANTED TO END MY LIFE, AND THEY BECAME STARS IN MY HEAVEN, BECAUSE I'M ALIVE. AND I WAS ABLE TO TAKE THAT AND I WAS ABLE TO TRANSLATE IT INTO A POEM FOR THEM, OR SOMETHING, YOU KNOW. THAT'S JIMMY'S HEAVEN. AND SHE LOOKED AT ME AND SHE SAYS, GOD, YOU'RE WEIRD, DUDE. AND I SAID, I KNOW, BUT DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, IT'S ALL GOOD. >> WHEN YOU WERE IN PRISON, YOU WERE THROWN IN ISOLATION A LOT. >> MANY TIMES. >> IT WAS TOTALLY DARK FOR WEEKS. >> RIGHT. >> AND YOU LEARNED TO TAKE YOUR MIND SOMEWHERE ELSE. >> I JUST SUBLIMATED, YOU KNOW, THE SPIRIT. >> HOW DID THAT INFORM HOW YOU WROTE? >> OH, IT INFORMED EVERYTHING. LISTEN, I LOVE POETRY SO MUCH THAT IT HAS TOTALLY SCREWED MYSELF UP IN SO MANY GIVEN SUCH EXTREME FREEDOM, IT LIMITS YOU IN THE MUNDANE THINGS OF LIFE. I MEAN, YOU CAN'T JUST WRITE A NORMAL SENTENCE, YOU WANT TO ADD LIKE 30,000 THINGS TO A NORMAL SENTENCE. IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, BE A

STRAIGHT UP STUDENT HERE, BECAUSE THERE'S JUST TOO MUCH THAT COMES OUT, RIGHT. SO IT TOOK ME AGES AND YEARS TO TRAIN MY MIND TO WRITE A SIMPLE SENTENCE THAT DIDN'T HAVE POETRY IN IT, BECAUSE THE POETRY WAS SO EFFULGENT. IT WAS SO OVERWHELMING AND BRIMMING IN MY JUST ORDINARY BREATHING. AND I LOVE IT AND I HONOR IT, AND I DIDN'T FOR MANY YEARS. YOU'RE DEALING WITH A TRUE OUTLAW WHO WAS ON THE ROAD DOING DRUGS, DRINKING, WOMANIZING. I MEAN, THE WHOLE NINE YARDS, YOU KNOW. THERE WAS NOBODY WORSE THAN I WAS, NOBODY. AND THERE WAS NOBODY MORE APPLICABLE TO COMING INTO THE SANCTUM CALLED LIFE AND HUMBLY BENDING MY HEAD AND SAYING, THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO LIVE ANOTHER DAY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE I'M AT. BUT THERE'S MORE PRISONS. WHEN I WAS AT YALE TEACHING, I HELD THE WALLACE STEVENS CHAIR, THERE WAS MORE OF THOSE KIDS IN MY CLASS, GRADUATE STUDENTS IN MY CLASS, THAT WERE IN A DEEPER

PRISON THAT THEY PROBABLY WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF THAN ALL THE PRISONS I WAS IN PHYSICALLY. >> IN WHAT WAY? >> WELL, THEY WERE ALL IN MY CLASS, AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WAS AN HEIR TO A FORTUNE, AND THEY WOULD ASK ME REALLY WEIRD QUESTIONS LIKE, DO YOU THINK -- YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD TELL ME, MY DAD GOT REALLY MAD AT ME AND THREATENED NOT TO GIVE ME MY INHERITANCE, DO YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO DO THAT? AND I SAID, NO, OF COURSE NOT, HE'LL GIVE YOU YOUR $200 MILLION, SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT. EVERYTHING HINGED UPON -- THEIR EXISTENCE MATTERED ONLY THROUGH THE FOCAL POINT OF HOW MUCH MONEY THEY HAD. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. AND SO I QUIT. I SAID, I'M NOT -- AFTER THE FIFTH YEAR, I SAID, I CAN'T DO THIS. OR THE THIRD YEAR, WHATEVER IT WAS, I CAN'T DO THIS. AND I LEFT NEW HAVEN, WENT TO NEW YORK, HAD A BIG PARTY WITH A LOT OF THE FACULTY FROM YALE, JUST HAD A GREAT TIME, AND THEN I CAME BACK TO THE SOUTH VALLEY. I DISTRIBUTED THIS BOOK,

'MARTIN & MEDITATIONS ON THE SOUTH VALLEY,' IT JUST WON THE AMERICAN BOOK AWARD AND HAD GONE INTO ITS UMPTEENTH PRINTING, AND IT WAS ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH VALLEY. IT'S STILL IN PRINT AFTER ALL THESE LIKE 30 YEARS OR WHATEVER. BUT I TOOK MY 'MARTIN & MEDITATIONS' AND HANDED IT TO EVERYBODY, AND AS I SAT AROUND THE FIRE -- AS CHICANOS, WE WOULD ALL HANG OUT, JUST HANG OUT. ALMOST -- A LOT OF THEM CAME UP TO ME AND SAID, JIMMY, WHAT'S THAT WORD? OH, THAT. THAT'S -- AND I WOULD TELL THEM. AND THEN ANOTHER ONE. SANTIAGO, WHAT'S THIS WORD HERE, YOU KNOW? AND THEN SOMEONE WOULD SAY, IS THIS MY POEM? I'D SAY, YEAH, THAT'S YOU. AND THEY WOULD SAY, OH, YOU GOT IT WRONG, YOU GOT IT WRONG, I DON'T SMOKE CIGARETTES, BRO. AND I'D BE LIKE, OH, MY GOD, I PUT DOWN THAT YOU SMOKED? HE SAYS, YEAH, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT TO CHANGE THAT. AND I'M LIKE, OKAY. BUT IT MADE ME REALIZE, WHAT AM I DOING AT YALE WHEN THE ILLITERACY IN THE SOUTH VALLEY IS SO HIGH WITH THE PEOPLE IN THE BARRIO AND THE PEOPLE I GREW UP WITH. IMMEDIATELY THE NEXT MORNING, I WENT TO ST. ANN'S AND ASKED THE PRIEST, CAN I HAVE A BARRACKS BACK THERE,

AND HE SAID, ABSOLUTELY. I SAID, GREAT. I HAD MY FIRST WRITING WORKSHOP THAT NIGHT. THAT WAS 42 YEARS AGO. >> I KNOW THAT YOU'VE CONTINUED TO WORK WITH PEOPLE -- >> ALL OVER THE WORLD. >> IN MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES, IN PRISONS, IN SCHOOLS. SO WHAT DRIVES YOU TO KEEP DOING THAT? >> I THINK IT SAVES MY -- I HAVE 28 BOOKS IN SO MANY LANGUAGES, AND I THINK A WRITER KEEPS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO KEEP HIS WRITING REAL. SOME PEOPLE GET DRUNK, SOME PEOPLE DO COKE, OTHER PEOPLE DO METH, SOME PEOPLE WOMANIZE, SOME PEOPLE BUY BRAND NEW CARS, SOME PEOPLE THEY WANT TO BE AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAME, HIGHER PUBLICITY, MANAGING TO GO ON EVERY SHOW YOU CAN IMAGINE AND STUFF LIKE THAT, RIGHT. WHAT KEEPS IT REAL FOR ME IS TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH THE KIDS AND THE ADULTS WHO HAVE A LOVE OF LEARNING. I MEAN, INSTANTLY IT TRIGGERS SOMETHING IN ME WHEN I SEE SOMEBODY WHO FEVERISHLY WANTS TO KNOW HOW

TO SAY TO HIS DAUGHTER, I LOVE YOU, BUT I CAN'T SAY IT. TELL ME HOW TO SAY I LOVE YOU TO MY DAUGHTER, JIMMY, BECAUSE THE WORDS I LOVE YOU DON'T MEAN ANYTHING TO ME. THERE HAS TO BE A WAY I CAN TELL HER I LOVE HER. AND THEN AFTER SIX MONTHS OF READING AND WRITING, THAT PERSON GOES AND TELLS A STORY TO HIS DAUGHTER THAT ALLOWS BOTH OF THEM TO KNOW HOW DEEPLY THE FATHER LOVES HER, THROUGH A STORY, RIGHT. YOU CAN PUT ALL THE GRAMMATICAL CORRECTIONS YOU WANT ON SOMEBODY'S SHOULDERS, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING IF YOU CAN'T CONVEY WHAT YOU WANT TO SOMEBODY. SO YOU HAVE TO FIND OUT WHAT'S BEST FOR THEM. LET THEM TELL THEIR STORY THE BEST WAY THEY CAN TELL IT TO YOU TO SHOW HOW MUCH THEY LOVE YOU. IF THIS IS ABOUT FIXING A CAR, LET THEM TELL YOU HOW MUCH. THEY SPENT THREE YEARS FIXING THIS '67 CHEVY FOR YOU, AND THE DAY THAT YOU WENT TO THE RIO GRANDE HIGH SCHOOL, YOU GOT TO DRIVE IT, MI HIJA, DID IT DRIVE GOOD? REALLY, THE CHEVY, OH, MAN, THE MOTOR WAS IMPECCABLE. THAT'S MY LOVE FOR YOU, MI HIJA.

THAT'S THE WAY I SAY I LOVE YOU. THAT CAR WILL NEVER BREAK DOWN. IT WILL GET YOU WHERE YOU GOT TO GO, AND YOU'RE GOING PLACES, GIRL, YOU'RE GOING PLACES. THAT'S WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING AND TALKING TO US. >> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE. POLITICAL HIT JOB OR LEGISLATIVE END AROUND? THE ACCUSATIONS ARE FLYING ONCE AGAIN THIS WEEK OVER WHAT TO DO ABOUT NEW MEXICO'S READING PROFICIENCY PROBLEM. LONG PUSHED FOR LEGISLATION THAT WOULD REQUIRE STUDENTS TO BE HELD BACK IF THEY AREN'T READING AT GRADE LEVEL, BUT THE LEGISLATURE HAS ALWAYS BALKED AT THAT IDEA. WELL, NOW THE DEPARTMENT OF ED IS TRYING A DIFFERENT APPROACH, PROPOSING A RULE CHANGE THAT CALLS FOR EARLY INTERVENTION TO HELP CHILDREN THAT ARE STRUGGLING WITH READING, BUT IT WOULD ALSO REQUIRE STUDENTS TO BE HELD BACK 'IN SOME SITUATIONS' IF THEY DON'T SCORE WELL ENOUGH ON AN END-OF-YEAR TEST. THE PLAN ISN'T SITTING WELL WITH SOME MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE EDUCATION STUDY COMMITTEE WHO THINK THE GOVERNOR AND PED ARE GOING AROUND THE LEGISLATURE ON THIS PLAN. SOPHIE, LET'S START WITH

THAT FIRST BIT THERE, THE GOING AROUND BIT. TRUE? IS THAT AN ACCURATE ACCUSATION FROM THE LEGISLATIVE FOLKS? >> OF COURSE IT IS. OF COURSE IT IS. THIS IS ESSENTIALLY THE LEGISLATION THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS TRIED TO GET THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE AND SO I THINK IT'S A CREATIVE ATTEMPT BY THE PED, THE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, TO GET THIS PRIORITY THROUGH. I WILL SAY THAT I THINK IT IS GOING TO END UP IN THE DELIGHTFULLY GEEKY AREA, AT LEAST FOR ME, OF THE COURTS. AT SOME POINT, THIS ISSUE OF WHETHER STATUE PRECLUDES USING THE RULEMAKING PROCEDURE IN THIS WAY, THAT'S GOING TO GET SORTED OUT. >> WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF THAT, BY THE WAY? I KNOW IT'S EARLY DAYS. >> I THINK, YOU KNOW, VERY MUCH AS THE RECENT DECISION FROM THE SUPREME COURT OVER WHETHER THE VETO POWER WAS USED CORRECTLY LAST YEAR, I THINK IT'S GOING TO END UP BEFORE THE COURTS. IT'S HARD TO PREDICT EXACTLY WHERE IT WILL GO. BUT I AM HEARING THAT THERE

IS SOME DISCUSSION THAT THERE MAY BE A LACK -- I'M NOT PUTTING THIS WELL. BUT I THINK THERE IS AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE ON BOTH SIDES, LET ME PUT IT THAT WAY. SOME INTERESTING STUFF THAT CAN COME THERE. BUT WHAT THE GOVERNOR GETS IS THE ABILITY IN THE FUTURE TO SAY, WE MADE IT HAPPEN, EVEN IF IT WAS THEN STOPPED BY THE COURTS. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> ONE THING I'M GOING TO EDITORIALIZE VERY BRIEFLY, NOT THAT IT'S NOT ALL AN EDITORIAL FOR ME THIS EVENING, BUT AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO IS TIRED OF STATE EMPLOYEES WORKING IN PUBLIC INFORMATION, STATE PUBLIC RELATIONS FOLKS, USING THAT PLATFORM TO SAY THINGS LIKE POLITICAL HIT JOB? I THINK YOU WORK FOR THE STATE, I'D LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING MORE NUANCED. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT FOR A PARTY. >> IT'S A REASONABLE DISCUSSION. ON BOTH SIDES, IT'S HAPPENING. >> THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT. I'M TIRED OF IT.

>> IT WORKS OUT WELL. ANDY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE STATE, WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO WITH PED IS JUST SAY, LOOK, WE HAVE AN INTERVENTION PLAN, WE HAVE DEVELOPMENT PLANS, WE HAVE ALL THESE PLANS TO HELP STUDENTS, WHICH WAS REALLY KIND OF INTERESTING IN THE LANGUAGE ONCE YOU READ THE WHOLE SITUATION, IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT'S JUST ABOUT THE PARCC TEST. DID THEY MAKE A GOOD ENOUGH CASE HERE? BECAUSE THE FOLKS WHO THINK IT'S JUST ABOUT THE PARCC TEST, LIKE ALL THIS WORK COMES DOWN TO YOUR EFFORTS, MEANING THE STUDENT, AT THE END OF YEAR, THERE COULD BE OTHER FACTORS AT PLAY THERE. >> YEAH, I THINK -- GOING BACK TO KIND OF WHAT YOU TALKED TO SOPHIE ABOUT, THIS COMES DOWN TO A BIG QUESTION STATUTE AND WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE RULEMAKING. I THINK PEOPLE ARGUE -- BOTH SIDES ARGUE BOTH SIDES DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS. PEOPLE HAVE ARGUED THAT OUR CURRENT SECRETARY OF STATE, MAGGIE TOULOUSE-OLIVER, SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CHANGE THINGS IN RULES. THE SAME GOVERNOR ARGUED THAT EXPANSION OF THE MEDICAL CANNABIS PROGRAM SHOULD NOT BE IN STATUTE, IT SHOULD BE IN RULES. SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF AN OPPORTUNISTIC TYPE THING,

AND I DON'T THINK SHE'S GOING TO BE -- SHE'S NOT THE FIRST OR THE LAST PERSON TO BE IN THIS SITUATION TO TRY TO SAY, WE'RE GOING TO PUSH THIS THROUGH. I'M A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED THAT THEY HAVEN'T TRIED TO DO THIS BEFORE. >> SOMEONE ELSE MENTIONED THAT TO ME, TOO. IT SEEMS LIKE THREE YEARS AGO, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED, AND KIND OF KEEP GOING AT IT, KEEP GOING AT IT. TOM, IN THE BROADEST SENSE, AND I REALIZE YOU'VE GOT SOME STUFF WITH YOUR COMPANY THAT IS INVOLVED WITH EDUCATION, SO WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BROADEST SENSE, BUT I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED WHY WE CAN'T HAVE THESE TWO CAMPS COME TOGETHER, MEANING THE FOLKS IN THE MARTINEZ CAMP WHO BELIEVE IN RETENTION AND BELIEVE IN TRACKING STUDENTS ALL THE WAY THROUGH, AND THOSE THAT WANT MORE MONEY FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION, THAT SOMEHOW WE CAN'T SIT DOWN AND MASH THESE KIND OF THINGS TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH A PLAN FOR NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR SIDE HERE. I MEAN, WHEN YOU'VE GOT THE AMOUNT OF FAILURE WE HAVE AT READING GRADE LEVEL HERE, IT'S HARD TO ARGUE WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM HERE. AND FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, WE NEED SOME MORE HELP AT AN EARLIER AGE, DON'T WE? >> AND DAN McKAY WITH THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL I THINK DID A REALLY SOLID PIECE JUST KIND OF LAYING OUT THAT ISSUE AS FAR AS ALL THE THE LEFC. I THINK THOSE OPPORTUNITIES

PROVIDE ORGANIZATIONS A CHANCE TO COME TOGETHER AND FIND THAT COMMON GROUND, AND I THINK THAT FINDING THAT COMMON GROUND IN AN ERA WHERE YOU HAVE -- YOU KNOW, EITHER YOU'RE IN FAVOR OF ADMINISTRATION OR YOU'RE IN FAVOR OF TEACHERS. THERE'S TOO MUCH DIVIDE, I THINK, TO REALLY KIND OF MAKE MUCH OF A MEASURABLE CHANGE, WHICH IS WHY I THINK WE SEE THE GOVERNOR USING A PLAYBOOK THAT HAS BEEN USED BY PREVIOUS GOVERNORS, EVEN PREVIOUS UNITED STATES PRESIDENTS TO MAKE RULE CHANGES IF THEY CAN'T GET A PIECE OF LEGISLATION THROUGH. >> THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. CHRISTINE, WE'VE GOT THREE OUT OF FOUR 4th GRADERS IN OUR STATE NOT READING AT PROFICIENCY LEVEL. THEY CAN'T SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING. CAN WE BLAME THESE PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING HERE? >> WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF INITIATIVES, AND PEOPLE ARE PERHAPS TALKING PAST EACH OTHER, BUT THE PHILOSOPHICAL DIVISIONS AND PARTY DIVISIONS ARE THAT WE HAVE A CONTROL, AND THE LEGISLATURE AND THE EXECUTIVE ARE IN THIS BATTLE. BUT I WANT TO INTERJECT WHAT A PRINCIPAL TOLD ME WOULD BE

SITE-BASED MANAGEMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION OF NEW PROGRAMS AND HOW TO MORE EFFECTIVELY ADDRESS THE STUDENT BODY AT PARTICULAR SCHOOLS. IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT TEACHERS AND PRINCIPALS AND PARENTS KIND OF GET SHORT-SHRIFTED, THEY GET LEFT OUT OF THIS EQUATION, AND REALLY I THINK THAT TEACHERS ARE NOT SEEN, ARE NOT EMBRACED AS THE EXPERTS THAT THEY ARE. SO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM ALSO FACTORED INTO THE EQUATION. LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING NATIONALLY NOW. THESE PROTESTS AND THESE STRIKES BY PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS WHO SAY, IT'S NOT JUST OUR SALARIES, WE NEED MORE RESOURCES OVERALL TO DO A NUMBER OF THINGS. AND I WOULD ADD THAT IN TERMS OF FUNDING, LAST I CHECKED THAT LAWSUIT AGAINST THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO WAGED BY THE MEXICAN-AMERICAN LEGAL

DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND, AND NEW MEXICO'S LAW ON POVERTY -- >> CENTER ON LAW AND POVERTY. >> CENTER ON LAW AND POVERTY, AMONGST SOME OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, ARE SAYING, THIS IS A MAJOR LACK OF FUNDING, IT HAS PRECEDED THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION, SOMETHING MAJOR HAS GOT TO CHANGE. AND SO THERE ARE A LOT OF HIGHWAYS LEADING TO THIS MAYBE A ROUNDABOUT CIRCLE, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO INTERVENE. BUT I AGREE THAT THERE IS SOME COMMON GROUND IN TERMS OF SAYING, HEY, WE NEED INTERVENTION. IT'S A QUESTION OF ASKING EXPERTS, HOWEVER YOU DEFINE IT. WE HAVE A UNM COLLEGE OF EDUCATION THAT SHOULD BE WEIGHING IN MUCH MORE AT LEAST OBVIOUSLY, WE DON'T SEE WHERE THAT IS. BUT WE'VE GOT EXPERTS IN THIS STATE, INCLUDING THE TEACHERS, PRINCIPALS AND PARENTS. >> THAT'S RIGHT. SOPHIE, ONE OF THE LITTLE THINGS HERE THAT'S INTERESTING AND COULD BE READ AS A COMPROMISE IS THE PARENTS COULD OPT TO NOT

AGREE TO HAVE THEIR STUDENT HELD BACK IF THEY'RE NOT PERFORMING. >> FOR ONE YEAR. >> FOR ONE YEAR, EXACTLY RIGHT. WHAT'S THE DANGER HERE? ANY LANDMINES THAT YOU SEE? BECAUSE A LOT OF PARENTS WOULD JUST STRAIGHT UP OPT FOR THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE SOCIAL STIGMA. THEY WANT TO PROTECT THEIR KID. THAT'S A DIFFICULT DECISION FOR A PARENT. >> I THINK IT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I'M NOT SURE, THOUGH, THAT THAT OPTION OF KEEPING YOUR KID GOING IS -- I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S THAT BIG OF A DEAL. I THINK IT'S LIKE, AND I HATE TO SAY IT, BUT I THINK LET'S GIVE SOMETHING TO THE PARENTS IN THE HOPES THAT WE CAN KIND OF QUIET THAT ARGUMENT THERE. >> BUT IN ITS PRACTICAL APPLICATION, IT'S HARD FOR A FAMILY, BUT THAT'S A DIFFICULT ONE, BECAUSE WHAT IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE A CHILD HELD BACK, IT'S STILL NOT WORKING, AND THEN YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE OTHER THING THAT APS CAN DECIDE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AT THAT POINT, AND THE PARENT IS SORT OF THE EQUATION. >> WHAT YOU WOULD HOPE, AND I WOULD EXPECT --

>> AND NOT JUST APS, BUT STATEWIDE. >> -- MOST IF NOT ALL PARENTS WOULD LOOK AT THE SITUATION WITH THEIR CHILD AND SAY, YEAH, WE DO THINK THAT THERE IS INTERVENTION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN HERE, AND THEN LOOK AT WHETHER IT'S APPROPRIATE TO HOLD THE KID BACK TO TRY TO GET ADDITIONAL HELP, WHICH MAY BE DIFFICULT WITHIN THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS GIVEN THE RESOURCES THAT ARE THERE. I THINK HOLDING A KID BACK IS ONLY ONE OF A NUMBER OF POSSIBILITIES, AND I THINK ONE OF THE LONGSTANDING CONCERNS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PROGRAM IS IF YOU HOLD A KID BACK, ESPECIALLY IF YOU HOLD THEM BACK MULTIPLE TIMES, AND YOU'RE NOT PROVIDING THE RESOURCES THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO MOVE FORWARD, YOU'RE CREATING SITUATIONS IN WHICH MUCH OLDER CHILDREN ARE IN A CLASSROOM WITH MUCH YOUNGER CHILDREN, AND THAT CREATES NEGATIVE IMPACTS IN THE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT IN THE CLASSROOM. >> THAT'S RIGHT. ONE OF THE GOALS -- WE'RE GOING TO WRAP THIS UP. BUT ONE OF THE GOALS IS ALSO TO POTENTIALLY HOLD BACK 8th GRADERS, GUYS, AND THAT'S A TRICKY ONE, LET ALONE 3rd GRADERS. NOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REAL SOCIAL STUFF AT THAT POINT, AND THE SCIENCE IS SORT OF LOOSE ON WHETHER THAT ACTUALLY SENDS A KID INTO A TAILSPIN THAT THEY NEVER REALLY RECOVER FROM,

OR ACTUALLY SETS THEM ON THE RIGHT TRACK FOR COLLEGE. SO THAT'S A TRICKY ONE, THAT 8th GRADE LEVEL THERE. THAT'S A TOUGH ONE. HAVE TO WRAP THAT UP. THE DEPARTMENT OF ED, BY THE WAY, WILL HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING ON THIS PROPOSED READING RETENTION RULE CHANGES ON THE MORNING OF MAY 17th. FOR MORE INFORMATION, JUST HEAD TO OUR WEBSITE AT NewMexicoInFocus.org. >> I'M GENE GRANT. THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS. AND AS ALWAYS, WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EFFORT TO STAY INFORMED AND ENGAGED. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK