The Infinite Mind; No. 34; Animal Intelligence; Part 2

But today on The Infinite Mind, produced by Lichtenstein Creative Media in association with WNYC New York, anyone who's ever told a dog to sit knows that Dr. Doolittle isn't the only one who can talk to the animals. But understanding and responding to simple commands isn't the same as communicating with a shared language. What if humans could create a mutually understood language with another species and the animals really could talk back? What would they tell us, as David First reports, that's just what the National Zoo's Orangutang Language Project is trying to find out. A division of the Smithsonian Institution, the National Zoo, is located on 163 acres of land right off Connecticut Avenue in the heart of Washington, D.C.. When scientists refer to the great apes, they mean orangutans, chimpanzees, gorillas and bonobos, and some would even add humans to the list. Language studies have been going on for years with different members of the great apes, most involving chimpanzees.

But the Orangutan Language Project, part of what's called the think tank exhibit at the National Zoo, focuses on that most neglected of all the great apes, orangutans, I mean orangutans, according to Rob Shumaker, the coordinator of the Orangutan Language Project. Most people don't even say their name correctly. Orangutang is actually incorrect. The correct spelling and pronunciation is orangutan. Orang in the original language mainly means person, and Ooten means of the forest. So the name actually means person of the forest. It's not one word and there's no G on the end of it. They're less social than the other great apes. And with their shaggy orange hair, they're almost impossibly long arms and tiny legs. Orangutans move slowly on the ground, but their arms are suited to their natural rainforest habitat, where they demonstrate impressive climbing skills and move about the treetops with speed and grace. The three year old think tank exhibit is housed in a facility located 500 feet away

from the ape house, where the orangutans used to live full time. Now they move freely back and forth between the two locations, but they don't travel by foot, connecting the buildings as a series of eight towers with cable running between them. Nicknamed the O Line, the towers range from 35 to 45 feet high and are completely open. Standing right alongside pedestrian walkways, there's a low voltage current running through the lower parts of the tower, and it prevents the orangutans from climbing down into zoo grounds between destinations like. So if you look up as you're walking through the zoo, you might be startled to see an orangutan over your head in mid-June hanging from the cables, or you might catch one luxuriating in the sunlight on top of one of the towers. But when they arrive at the think tank site and head into what's been nicknamed the Smart Room, the orangs are ready to work. For the past three years, they've been learning a written language based entirely on

abstract symbols. The Smart Room provides a bench, a computer screen that displays questions, and another large computer screen that an orangutan can reach out and touch to select responses. According to Rob Shumaker, designing the work environment and trying to imagine what would best suit the intended user, the adult males may weigh up to 250 300 pounds, so their hands are huge. Each of their fingers is about the size of a small banana and we couldn't use a regular old keyboard that just wouldn't work. The think tank program at the National Zoo is the only active language study involving orangutans going on in the world. On a recent afternoon, AISI, a 21 year old adult male, sits at the bench waiting patiently for Rob Shumaker to set up the computer interface and get to work. Shumaker stands on the other side of the thick glass walls of the smart room, where a crowd of zoo visitors gathers to observe the demonstration. Just and everybody, welcome to think tank.

Rob asks questions. Using the computer screen, he might display a picture of an apple on Azeez question screen or might hold up some sliced pieces of an apple. Then AISI must identify the correct symbol for Apple from a choice of as many as 28 on his response screen. No spoken cues are given in tandem with the presentation of the symbols. AISI has just started with verbs and can demonstrate that so far he can correctly use the symbol for open. And the first thing I'm going to do is ask him to tell me what to do with this closed container. OK, it's ready. Thanks. Good job. There are seven categories of symbols, and the categories are visually defined by the exterior shape of the symbol. For example, all symbols in the foods category are rectangles. All verbs are Diamond's individual words within a category are determined by different shapes within that exterior frame. For example, Apple within the food category is represented by a rectangle with a diagonal line running through it.

Banana is represented by a rectangle with a squiggly line running across it. Good job. That's very, very good. During the demonstration, AISI rarely picks the wrong symbols, but the wrong answers sometimes tell us more than the right answers and the errors the orangutans have been making lately indicate to Rob Shumaker that they're understanding something beyond each individual symbol. The mistakes that they are making are starting to demonstrate that they are categorizing the symbols. So if they make a mistake labeling an object, for example, they usually choose another object symbol as the mistake, not a food and not a verb. They don't mix up things like apple and cup. They mix up bag and cup or apple and banana. There you go. Good, good. When AISI provides a correct answer, which he does with amazing speed nearly every time he's often rewarded on a food question, that means he gets to eat the food he identified. But Shumaker is quick to explain that hunger is not used as a motivator to get

the orangutans to work, that they come to the sessions by choice. And he says he believes that food isn't the only motivation. They don't get a reward that's tangible. Every time I may ask them to do two or three questions before they get something in their hand directly, I say that to point out that they are not working just because they want what I'm holding. I think that the primary reason that they work in this project is because they're interested and they enjoy the mentor challenge and the mental stimulation. And certainly there are plenty of humans who show up for work just to collect that paycheck, observing AISI in his work environment, being presented with a beverage in a mug when he gets a correct answer and sipping from it like the best of us on a coffee break, it's not hard to imagine photos of loved ones on his desk, the Wall Street Journal on his lap and bifocals on his nose. And like many D.C. residents, some of these orangutans even commute to work. Coming over to the think tank on the line, the work habits of the subjects

in the think tank study should inspire even the biggest fake sick day offender among us. If an orangutan doesn't show interest in working one day, Shumaker says there's usually a compelling reason. With one of our adult males. It's usually if one of the females from the apes comes down to visit and he's overwhelmingly interested in that. I can understand that. No problem there. They are so reliable about working that if they don't want to work and there's not an obvious explanation like interest in a female or something like that, it's clear that they're not feeling well. And that has been a really important thing for us that we never had as directly before this project started. OK, I'm telling you, this is. Very, very good job at the moment, Azi has a vocabulary of 10 symbols, but what excites Rob Shumaker is the fact that the orangutans are learning new symbols much quicker these days. They are very, very accelerated compared to when we started as an example.

I could ask one individual to learn something and a new symbol, and it might take them something like 25 or 30 days to understand how to use a brand new symbol. This summer, about three years later, they were showing me that they had the ability to acquire a symbol at the same level of accuracy in only four days. Now, I don't think that what we're doing right now qualifies as language. I think what it qualifies as is the process of getting to language. And I think all of us have gone through the same process of understanding how you label specific things and then understanding how you put those labels together to express yourself more specifically for the infinite mind. I'm David First. Good job. That's very, very good. Very, very good. You can visit the Orangutang Language Project in the think tank exhibit at the National Zoo in Washington, D.C. The zoo is open seven days a week every day, but Christmas

and Orangutang demonstrations are conducted five times a week. You can call the National Zoo for more information at 202 673 029. That number, again, is 202 six seven three oh two oh nine. Internet links to the think tank website where you can view pictures of the orangutans at work are available by visiting our Web site at w w w dot. The Infinite Mind dot com. Our next guest is a pet therapist, but says he spends a considerable amount of time figuring out the human mind as well. Warren Eckstein has worked with animals and their humans for more than 20 years. He's the author of the best selling How to Get Your Dog to Do What You Want and host a nationally syndicated radio program, The Pet Show. His new book, Memoirs of a Pet Therapist, talks about his work with such celebrities as David Letterman, Rodney Dangerfield and Lily Tomlin. Welcome to The Infinite Mind, Warren Eckstein. It's great to be here. You work with all kinds of pets, from cats to pigs to turtles.

What's your perspective on just how smart animals are? Well, I think there are a whole lot smarter than we are. I'm out here talking to you, my dogs home, watching Jerry Springer. I think the important thing to understand is that animals are as intelligent as we allow them to be. And that's why what I do pet therapy is trying to educate people to really mentally stimulate their pet so they don't stagnate in our environment. What about the humor? Do you have any sense that animals have a sense of humor? They do. In other words, there are times I'll come home and tell a bad joke and my dog and cat will just walk away from me. Yeah, they take on the personalities of the people they live with. They often talk about Lily Tomlin, who was a client of mine. She had a Norwich terrier named Tess. It was like working with Sybil. The dog had multiple personalities. But in reality, Lily practices six to eight different personalities every day. So the dog was only imitating her, you know, performance. So I think it's very important that people understand that our pets do, in fact, understand what we're saying. That's why you would never call your dog chubby in front of him. And I think that our pets really do take on the personalities of the environment in

which they live. One of the things that strikes me the most about pets that I've had is their capacity for very deep grief when they're separated from the owner or grief when they lose, you know, lose a fellow animal. What's your experience with animal grief? Well, you know, it's an interesting topic. And when I first started talking about the men with the the white coats were standing in front of my home. But in the memoirs of a pet therapist book, I talk about the fact that I lost my wife at a very young age who was 35 when she passed away five years ago. And we had been married for 19 years. So we were best friends and husband and wife and we had quite a menagerie. We had two pet pigs and six chickens and six ducks and eight stray dogs and twenty stray cats and God knows what else was hatching around the neighborhood. The interesting part about it is that when when Fay died, obviously I was devastated. I mean, I didn't even know how to write a check. But it was interesting that my animals, my pets were grieving so much at that point for their mom that me getting through their grief and helping them through their grief delayed my own till I was ready to go through it.

So anyone who's ever lost a spouse or or had two pets and one pet passed away will easily tell you how much grief an animal goes through. And I think they go through the same stages of grief that people go through. I think one of the problems is that the human the human animal has such an incredible ego that we believe that we're the only living thing that has the ability to have emotions. And and once you get past that human ego and spend a lot of time on the floor with pets and with animals in general, you find out that we're not the only animals on this planet that have emotions, that feel sadness and happiness at the same time. But I talk to my dog. Regularly call me eccentric and believe me, many people do, but I call my dogs on the phone every day, every day I leave the answering machine on. If I'm traveling, I call them up and say, hi, guys, how are you doing? I'll see you in a little while. When I leave in the morning, I say goodbye to my fiancee and I said goodbye to my pets. And when I come home in the afternoon or the evening, not only do I talk about my day, but I ask my pets about their day. I think the the the human ability to communicate with their pets is strictly based on the fact that you do it. In other words, forget about the fact that you think

you're superior. Talk to your animals, ask them questions. And I believe once you start responding to them and once they start responding to you, the relationship is just that much closer that when you've talked about your interest in human psychology as well, what about sort of human mental status, human mental conditions reflected in pets? We know, of course, about depression and pets, but what about anxiety? What about the range of things? Well, I believe the same stresses and anxieties we have go from one end of the lead to the other. For example, I've worked with pets, with eating disorders. They were almost anorexic, i.e. always the owner. If I go into a home where I have a nervous eater, a person that sits down with a six pack of beer and a bag of potato chips, then I have a dog who's a nervous eater or a cat that's a nervous eater. If I have a person who's very, very depressed, then obviously I'm going to be dealing with a pet who's very, very depressed. If I walk into a family where everyone is hyperactive, well, then I have a hyperactive pet. The interesting part about it and the thing that fascinates me is the confusion in how our pets deal with it. I mean, I go into the typical American home and the husband

tells the dog to jump up. The wife tells the dog to get down. And then the dog calls me on the phone and says, hey, Warren, isn't that the definition of neurosis? I think we need to establish some type of continuity. And when people try to describe what I do, I kind of call it social work. Call me a child of the 60s, perhaps. But I really believe that the only resolution to psychological problems in pets is stability within the family. For example, divorce. We know how divorce affects children. Why is it that no one ever talked about the effect that divorce has on pets? It's a tremendous, devastating time for dogs and cats are a prime example. Is that generally in a separation or a marriage that's not working out? One person smothers the pet, the other person takes out their anger on the pet. And the pet is totally confused, just like with children at this point. How do I deal with this? And I've been involved in many custody battles over pets over the years. So I think that the same stresses and problems we have really do travel from one end of the lead to the other. I'm seeing more stressed out dogs and cats now than I've seen in years past, and I think probably because we're living in a latchkey pet

society. Let's face it, dogs suffer from separation anxiety. Dogs go through a mid-life crisis. I know that sounds crazy, but they absolutely do. Oh, the dogs will sometimes revert to puppy behavior to get negative attention. I think all of these things have to do with a more stressful time in our lives. Well, let's hear from some of our callers about some of these problems that we deal with our pets. I think we have Sue from upstate New York on the line. Sue, are you there? Yes. Do you have some questions for Dr. Eckstein? Yes. My dog has a lot of anxiety during thunderstorms and she will be jumping on top of you and panting. And you can't seem to comfort her at all. It's a very common problem, you know, and it's noise phobia is a very common it could be firecrackers. It could be the sounds of a new baby crying. One of the things I advocate is to desensitize the dog to it. Now, how do you desensitize a dog or a cat to the sound of thunder? While technology is amazing, but you can go to video stores or or record stores and you can get sound effects records that literally have the sounds of a thunderstorm on that.

What I recommend doing is in the evening, while you're massaging your dog and cat and everyone out there should be massaging their pets to play it at a very soft volume. I mean, barely audible. And over a period of months, don't expect instant gratification, but over a period of months increased the volume gradually till the dog or cat no longer responds to the thunder in the background. And when you can play, it is loud in the house is it would be outside, then we've resolved the problem. So what have you already tried with your dog? I have tried the case and it seems that she can discern whether it's real thunder or a tape because she doesn't react to the tape. Well, sometimes what sometimes what you really need to do is you really need to do it, even though I mean, go for six months or eight months without stopping, just letting I hear it every single night in certain cases, because the atmospheric pressures change, the dog or cat will feel that. But if you can really get the volume of the thunder as loud inside as it would be outside, at least we can deal with part of it at that problem. The other thing I would recommend is perhaps finding one item that your dog absolutely

adores and the only time that item comes out is when there's going to be a thunderstorm. So she almost looks forward to it in a positive way because she's getting something very special when it happens. And I think that might work for you. Hey, that sounds good. Good luck to you. So thank you for calling me friend of mine. Thank you. Our next. Caller is Joan from Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Joan, how can we help you? Well, I have a nine year old standard poodle who had a very small surgery on the tip of her tail two years ago. It was just a small wart that they removed. Since that time, she will not stop chewing her tail. The only thing that seems to work is just to keep it covered with a bandage. If that's on there, she's all right. But if we take the bandage off within a few minutes, she's frantically chewing her tail. And what could you suggest? Well, it's possible that your dog has a tendency towards hypochondria if there's no physiological reason.

By the way, poodles are the smartest of all the breeds. We did an IQ test when I was stationed overseas and we determined that. But let me give you an example. It's kind of what I mentioned before. If you have a dog or a cat that had some type of injury or something that the owners were paying a lot of attention to, even though that that disability was removed, sometimes the dog will continue to go to that area, associating that with the the idea that I'm going to get attention for doing that. There's two ways to approach it. One is tough love and totally ignore it. The other thing I would recommend, have you tried a product called Bitter Apple? Oh, yes, we've tried that, Araba. We've tried hot pepper spray. Forget the hot pepper. Here's what I'm going to recommend and I guarantee it. OK, OK. Go to a supermarket or a pharmacy and pick up some A1 powder. Do you know what Alim is? I've heard of it alliums in estranging. You get it in your mouth. Can't you talk like that, mix it with a little water and put it around the base of the little stub on the end of your poodle's tallow. Once it gets the taste of the island, he will stop and give her a hug for me. Okay. Well, Joan, thank you for calling me a friend of mine.

Thank you so much. OK, bye bye bye. You know, it's not that different in the behavior we notice with children. I remember faking stomach aches, you know, realizing when I was a kid that if I faked it, maybe I didn't have to go to school. And it's amazing how intelligent our pets are. They do the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. We have Nicole on the line from New York City. Nicole, how can we help you? Hi. I have kind of an odd problem, actually. I live in a tenement building in Little Italy, in New York. And my neighbor and I, it's almost like we're roommates are cats. Play in the hall and we go back and forth and our door's always open. And I have this cat that is extremely sweet. His name's Albert and he's just a doll. But whenever he goes into my neighbor's apartment, he hides under her bed and he becomes a tyrant, like, you can't get him out, he'll bite you, scratch you. My hands swelled up like a like a baseball once is terrible. Only when he goes into your neighbor's, apparently when he goes in there. Yeah. You know, it sounds to me like it's a typical example of the cat being very, very territorial, even though they play together. And even though he's in there often, he still lives in your apartment by letting him into that new area. What he's doing is saying, OK, this is mine, I'm going to claim it and nobody is going to

make me leave. This this place would I would try to do so. I would continue letting him in that apartment. But what I would recommend doing is blocking off any place where he can hide underneath something. And the reason I recommend that is because we don't want to avoid the situation. We want to confront it, but we don't want to give him the upper hand. So I might block off the bed with some suitcases or whatever. And worse scenario, and I don't often recommend this. What you can do is use one of those empty soda cans with the twenty pennies in it and shake it behind your back when the cat is displaying aggressive behavior. Just to reinforce your word, no, but I would not avoid it. I would confront it, but block off the areas where he can really den at that point. Right. Thank you very much. Good luck to you. Thanks for calling this mind, Nicole. Thank you. Next, we have Jenny from Maine. Jenny, how can we help you? Well, we have a dog named Jimbo and Himbo have a large population. So then we had the lovely long cocker spaniel hair shaved off.

And with that he became a different dog. He's embarrassed. He's embarrassed. That's what I've wanted to know. There's no doubt in my mind. You know, again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that pets have the same feelings that people have. In other words, here we have a dog that had long hair. I remember when I went into the military, my hair was in a ponytail. When I took it off, I was totally embarrassed. I was an entirely different person. I believe the same holds true for our pets. What you need to do is, is to let them watch. I was going to say let them watch action movies, action adventure movies to bring them back up to speed. But what I really recommend that you do is let the hair grow back very frequently. When a dog's appearance is changed psychologically, they know their appearance is change and react no different than a person would who all of a sudden had their hair cut off. If you want to get rid of, please let me give you a little trick, OK? No one is vacuum the house every day. Go to the supermarket, buy yourself a flea collar, don't put it on the dog, cut up the flea collar, put it in the vacuum cleaner bag. This way, when you vacuum up the fleas, they cannot escape.

Kind of like they check in and don't check out and they still keep. Flea problem and check for you. That's great. And good luck to you. Thank you. One, everybody loves celebrities now. Can you share some kind of celebrity pet stories with us? Yeah, I'll give you a few. David Letterman, for example, who was a client of mine when he first started out, he had moved from Malibu to New York City and his dogs had trouble adapting to the streets of New York. What a shock. So I was called into to work with the dogs, which I did, and got the dogs responding exceptionally well in New York. Now, the concept everyone knows stupid pet tricks from the David Letterman show. That was really my idea, not that I get credit for, but I'll tell you how it started. We were working at Rockefeller Center at the NBC studios, and I taught his dogs all the basic things they needed to learn. And he said to me one day on the sixth floor, Warren, they know their basic training. Can you teach them something a little bit different? Going back to my military experience, I taught his dog Bob to crawl on his belly like a war dog. At which point Dave said to me, you know, that's the stupidest thing I've ever

seen. At which point I responded by saying, Dave, if you think that's stupid, you should see some of the other things people have asked me to teach their dogs to do. And his girlfriend at that time, Merrill Markoe, said, Stupid Patric's. And that's how it started. OK, Rodney Dangerfield, another client of mine, an incredible guy, he answered the door in a bathrobe that I would not wear if I was a hermit living in Montana. He's exactly the way he is off camera that you see him. But he had this small, little, tiny miniature poodle that was urinating all over the house and actually shorted out his jogging machine. I think there's just the perfect example of pets taking on the personalities of the people they live with. So Dangerfield got no respect from God? No. Geraldine Ferraro is an interesting client, though. When she was running for the vice president of the United States, I was working with her at that same time. She had a German shepherd named Sammy. Now, I knew I would adore Geraldine Ferraro, but I wasn't sure how I would react to her husband because he had been getting a lot of bad press when I went to their home in Forest Hills at ten o'clock on a Thursday night and John Zaccaro answered

the door and paisley Bermuda shorts and a T-shirt and got down on his hands and knees and said, I'm ready to train my dog, Sammy. My whole attitude towards him changed. So sometimes you can't tell what's inside a book by looking at the cover. I think that's a wonderful place to stop. We can learn a lot from our pets. We can learn a lot about ourselves and others as to how we treat our pets. And Warren has been very helpful, very informative. My pleasure. Hopefully we'll do it again real soon. I hope so. Dr. Eclstein's new book, Memoirs of a Pet Therapist, is published by Ballantine. I'm Dr. Fred Goodwin and this is The Infinite Mind. And finally today, if we agree that all animals have some intelligence, John Hockenberry looks at the age old question are some animals more intelligent than others? Intelligence I was always taught was this absolute, yet in practice, I secretly observed that it seemed to be a much more slippery concept than all that. So in my old encyclopedia published back in the early 60s, the one that said someday we

would actually go to the moon and we animals, it listed the dozen or so smartest animals chimp at the top. To my great surprise horse at the bottom, horses are dumb. Oh, well, I'll be avoiding them from now on. Pig, I learned, had beat out dog. This transformed my view of pigs. Pigs are smart. I thought I want to include more pigs in my circle of friends. Maybe a Friday night dinner party. Some writers, teachers, a few filmmakers invite a pig on the list. Dog beat out cats, something that perfectly matched my own field observations. Fish didn't make the list, but there was dolphin right near the top next to bear. When I peruse the article to find out by what criteria they had made this list, it seemed quite vague. There was some mention of brain to body weight, but that wasn't the only consideration. Couldn't be how would they come up with this list? I began to think of a room where animals were made to take some tests like the SAT on a Saturday. They would all troop in and sit like we had to do in high school, which probably explains why the dolphin did so well.

You don't think the dolphin made those number two pencil marks on its own, do you? Part of the idea of animal intelligence, I think, though, is assuming that animals have some desire for intelligence, that they have the same crazed vanity about their brains, the way we humans have an almost obsessive fixation on our own intelligence. We invent these important thresholds of brain power and inserts throughout nature for animals who have passed the test language tool making. You know, you can't find a better tool user than the hose headed elephant. If you ask me. These scientific criteria all imply that animal intelligence had something to do with trying to be more human. Now, why animals would want to be human except to avoid being used as food, perhaps, and being able to drive would help, of course. But aside from that, I don't know. To me, animal intelligence was more subtle, a more complex interaction of freewill in the environment, something like how certain species of insect get this would disguise themselves as bad tasting plants to avoid being eaten by birds. Brilliant. This clearly proved that bugs were smarter than birds in sheer

numbers. They've won hands down anyway. And while it is entertaining to imagine a meeting some bugs had a few million years ago to discuss strategies for avoiding being eaten by birds, scientists, of course, would just say that's not intelligence. These creatures evolve that way by accident. But hey, maybe it's smarter if you don't have to schedule a meeting and there is plenty about humans that's just evolved group behavior. You know, I suppose that wearing baggy pants and headphones is a survival strategy that evolved out of language use or tool making behavior. One of my favorite animal intelligence experiments involved planeria. Those are flatworms, they have a single eye. And in the experiment, planetaria exposed to light over their lifetimes were ground up and fed to a group of flummery erased in total darkness. Lo and behold, the plain area eating plain area suddenly became sensitive to light behavior, became chemical, became food, became behavior. Again, brilliant insight into brain chemistry. I don't know if humans were part of this experiment.

If somebody from the next cell ended up on my dinner plate, I'd probably get pretty sensitive in a hurry whether my cell was dark or well lit. And I wouldn't quibble about the condiments as the cause, that's for sure. I think animal intelligence is evident all around us, kind of like human stupidity, there's no grade. We're all on a pass fail basis on this planet. There is no other objective test of intelligence except the one animals, I think, have all passed. Unlike humans, they don't need to be told they're intelligent. I'd say that puts them right up there above pig, let's say above pig. A rhino. Where would that fit? The nose is smart. A giraffe, long neck, kind of dumb, kind of dumb, really toed lungs and gills. Very smart. Useful to elephant. No. For The Infinite Mind, I'm John Hockenberry. John Hockenberry is heard weekly on The Infinite Mind. Log on to our website at w w w dot the Infinite Mind dot com.

For more information about animal intelligence or anything you hear on this show, you can reach us toll free at one 888 three five open mind to come on in today's show or to be a caller on a future program that's one eight three five oh 64 63. Next week on The Infinite Mind. Everybody worries, but how much worry is too much? If you could visualize someone holding you by the hair and hanging you over the Verrazano Bridge or the George Washington Bridge and the terror that would manifest in you. That's what it feels like to have a panic attack. The head of Freedom from Fear and the nation's top psychiatrist. Take your calls about anxiety. Plus, John Hockenberry and comedian Joan Kaiser join us next week on The Infinite Mind. Each week, we explore the new frontiers of the infinite mind right here on this public radio station. I'm Dr. Fred Goodwin. Thank you for joining me on this journey.

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