KEXP Presents Mind Over Matters; Sustainability Segment: William Easterly

this is diane hein your host on the sustainability segment of mind over matters on k x p seattle ninety point three of them and on the web at atx tv i know archie my guest this morning is bill easterly professor of economics at new york university and co director of nyu's development research institute his previous books include the white man's burden and the elusive quest for growth and he's published columns and reviews for the new york times wall street journal new york review of books and washington post bill easterly is here today to tell us about his most recent book the tyranny of experts economists dictators and the forgotten rights of the poor published in two thousand and fourteen welcome golf together what led you to write your book the tyranny of experts really was coming out of a lot of frustration and basically most elementary human rights other poor were being violated with impunity by autocratic governments and aid agencies and nobody seemed to care i started the book with an example from uganda where some presence in uganda in the course of a world bank projects have their lands taken

from mom at gunpoint and they're marched away from their lands their homes were burned down their crops torched the dairy cow skull with machine guns and especially didn't make it onto the front page of the new york times that what happened after that it was very soft to not announcer really really infuriated the first was at the world bank's promise to invest in its own role in this tragedy so it would never happen again well i never did that in the end has never done best addition the second none of that was that nobody seemed to be paying attention and they seem to care at the world bank failed to investigate its own role and so now four years later it's almost exactly four years ago that this happened everybody's forgotten this instance that's what i mean is for the forgotten rights of the poor redemption to care about the rights of poor people would you expand on what you think is wrong with our current approach to development of the current impression of ullman has won the focus is very much on technical solutions and we don't really say who is going to be doing instead gross which just recently and slashed by more areas bad note suspicion

or say spring residences inside with her i'm gonna cry return to prevent mosquitoes from going inside homes tweaking of these is no direct technical fixes to malaria but we don't take into account as whose diary during his success and why haven't they done them already instances of those were working with the local government which is often a dictator who doesn't really care about fixing their prom supported the dictator disclose raw keeping his own power what do you consider to be the underlying cause of global poverty well that's the other big thing is that the dictator himself and his predecessors of autocracy as a system is itself because of poverty you know and we work with autocrats it's like one of these sort of crime stories in which you're working with the police captain that you think is going to be the good guy helping you sell someone's problem and then the surprise twist it turns out to be a bad guy and he's actually working by rebecca hurt the person who turned out so i was going to paris were working

with them as if they're the solution to really they're the problem there themselves a cause partly by suppressing particles are expert people's i'm going to speak up in protest demand solutions but the title of your book is the tyranny of experts what do you see as the problem with using expertise and development course expertise as part of the solution and they'll munch bread and technical knowledge on her it's had problems for most experts set up refund development has again their silence on rights of the poor and her willingness to work with the autocrats to turn everything over the autocrats and their failure to protests when autocrats or violent threats or somebody like bill gates or more i respect very much for his work on poverty but he winds up raising the government of ethiopia as achieving great reductions in child mortality than reduction in poverty and the evidence is that the dictator denied that fell for other reason some others on their own finding better medicines for their own

children the evidence is that democracies are much better than dictators are reducing child mortality in and empowered so you know i think we're just working with the wrong set of ideas are very real privileged dictators were praised dictators who were not respected dissidents her in jail made your career fighting against the sticker would you come here what you call free development authority area in development and so the great thing about when you do respect rights of the poor use that this enormous society wide problem solving system so when people have the right to protest whenever there's a problem we hear about and there's consequences from those protests because people have the power to vote that governments out of office now sign that iran the markets or work for hours and even something comparatively trivialize a traffic jam on average cost anonymous flicker consequences for new jersey governor chris christie and yet you know the counterpart of that was something much worse in uganda had no consequences for the world bank or for a dictator

for free development is a civility to have this and squeaky wheel get the grease where as the autocrat plus the return of all the effective ways sounds as a squeaky wheel to one presenter know what groups have been in favor of the authoritarian approach to development well nobody holds up a sign saying we love autocrats we went to wiley right to poor people this is all a matter of silence rather than outright support of autocrats although interrogations as the example i just gave of gates' praising cuban dictator there are many examples of aid agencies crazy dictators but it's really the whole kind of official development establish a mandate established and which consists of the official aid agencies to world bank the us government aid agency you're steady and private pond is like the gates foundation they all seem to embrace this technique autocratic approach trunk on the authoritarian development and what is the recent events in europe via well you know it is very tempting to believe that technical solutions are big

short cut answer and just kind of assume where the problem that government is actually a benevolent one thing that does for us all as it puts us experts say the heroes of history and there's something very seductive that cerberus just about that we really want to have the ability to fix the problems at the mulberry well intentioned people i was wondering myself i'm a recovering addict you know well intentioned experts they like a story in which we experts have the power at one stroke to implement technical solutions just by handing them over to an all powerful but of an autocrat you're the people or groups that have spoken out against authoritarian how they're implementing i mean the problem is not that we're losing the debate helped her turn versus free development as for the tour has nominated adult patients to silence there are a few groups have spoken up at human rights watch an oxfam has sex and publicize the yukon the story of

anton about human rights watch has publicized human rights violations by ethiopia's dictator that bill gates was brazen so those are the good guys in mind too what is the case for this excessive free verses authoritarian development what you see evidence you know there were really nice do is use all of the evidence one strange thing that happened when we discuss evidence is that we leave out the countries that are now rich as possible models further element which is a pretty strange assumption you're looking for models how to succeed at an element you leave out all the cases of actually succeed and so you know if we do include japan north america or western europe in the evidence based those are society's associate her free development for the growth of democratic and economic rights to publish and then there are many more that are now coming along like botswana taiwan south korea she learned that are following the path of creative element and worldwide the hopeful sign news freedom is spreading around the world and the trends are positive for this is not a gloomy story just has a story of being on the right

side of history how is a case of china fit into this picture he has a problem most common question i get asked about this debate but we have to remember about china's a resort said about china's have had very rapid economic growth rate that it's leveled feldman has hired social workers still very poor comparable us but because of a very rapid growth rates we get excited and progress well in other areas think about a growth rate is that if the level of democracy predicts the level of prosperity change in freedom are protected change and prosperity which we called economic growth i think was happened in china's has been actually a lot more freedom than there was under mao certainly much more economic freedom peasants can do their own family farm share them work on collective farms and also even some positive change and political freedoms or even though china is a long way away from freedom that have a positive change and freedom as robert barnes rapping correct i'm diane

hein and my guest is bill easterly professor of economics at new york university and author of the book the tyranny of experts economists dictators and the forgotten rights of the poor and you are ten to the sustainability segment of mind over matter some listener howard k e x feat ninety point three of them and on the web add k e x p nut allergy we alluded to this earlier but tell us the current approach to development hurt human rights the biggest thing going on in july it's a sin of omission robinson of commissioned to appear were talking about every aspect of poor people's lives we're obsessed with her maternal standard of living and collecting their rights and that atmosphere is one in which it has flourished in the center of song lonesome rhodes college its roster really providing a very good technical justification for a dictator and a dictator's daughter that follows us wise experts' advice send us all the technical solutions like spraying high return inside the residents is some

criminal or so that is like weaver plays were used to read that divine right of kings where the development right of decadence what events historically have reinforced this material development approach rather than looking more at the rights of individuals in our countries well what i woke up to under the researchers perkins these ideas have roots of a much earlier and what i did realize it actually stoller right after world war one woodrow wilson gave on the first eight months of the idea of eternal development ignoring right twenty and over former german economies to the british empire and said hey guys from the reason you guys deserve to have these concerts are struggling to raise interest and avoiding their clients have checks which was actually false that was the justification for giving the british empire morricone's and became an excellent justification for colonial role throughout the life of the british empire that's really the roots of these ideas they originated over time who are so racist we can even imagine that restaurant should deserve equal rights who has racism played a role in development well you know i'm

not accusing anyone committing racist an explicitly and i think you know of course racism is very subtle it's very conscious still love but around the bitter words and we're on target to use would be a condescension in paternalism there's this mentality that a poorer these were passive helpless beings we often pictured them on the brochures of her charities have an ad agency right documents mostly women and children looking really miserable degraded and they're just waiting for us or avoid savior's to sweep in and say that i think of the sort of paternalism and kansas and georgia so insulting to protect anti perfume of that itself is a violation of the rights of poor people could use some additional examples of political rights being ignored in the case of authoritarian development yellow europe is a kind of natural place because has been this very long history of kind of embrace of a european dictator in mls is a somali whom

was in power since nineteen ninety one and then died of natural causes in twenty twelve and during this entire row he was kind of watch with praise but aid agencies and yet he was a serial human rights abuse and there were rigged elections two thousand five he shot and killed peaceful demonstrators the streets afterwards he most recently they forced us imprisoned peaceful ethiopian blogger who is just a reporting on their democratic spring with a sense of eighteen years in jail suffering from his wife and kids in a miserable miserable jail this is an interesting to note that no one has ever heard of her friends her vote gets her hands her bond on jefferson acknowledged her as kind of the victim of our neglect over its what have been some of the issues in focusing on development at the level of nation states rather than at the level of individuals how much donations per se matter as a focus of development yeah i think part of the reason that we embrace autocrats is we also obsess about

nations as being the things that were developing some us is a free we care more about developing the area of land known as ethiopia and we do care about the ethiopians and that means we neglect a lot of the things that are going on and the positive things that are going on are really happening across national borders so i mentioned earlier that there's been a reduction in child mortality and if you and that's really the result of a regional spread throughout africa health knowledge and my saving technologies some things are simpler so mothers teach you michel and wash their hands after the veteran that has enormous impact on health span of antibiotics are spreading a very decentralized where italian church these are things that are happening across national borders and yet we're obsessed with what's happening on the nation states and we exaggerate the role of the dictators we just think about the role of migration as clayton can claim development migration is kind of like the canary in the coal mine that shows how little wary respect for it to poor people now that we have this very hostile attitude toward

sunni and skilled african person emigrating from africa to the rest of the world and as if there's some kind of traitor to the whole notion that there's really a double standard haircut no one gave me grief when i migrated from my birthplace was treated and to work now in new york nobody called me a traitor to research and had lots of very poor region that needs all the schools going to really have a double standard unwholesome a glutton but actually these migrations had quite positive impacts skilled professionals who margaret abroad they often return home for him with the most beneficial investments and knowledge which you say more about how migration has a positive effect on those left behind well of course was obviously the migrants are sending lots of money back on the first or the migrants themselves are escaping poverty by migrating and then they're helping us become a scapegoat partly so this is to test detected by a couple of economists that the two percent of the haitians they have ever escape poverty have done so by moving to the us and now there's eighty two percent are helping haitians back at a state party

by sending money back to haiti i that's not the complete comprehensive answer to get all my back in haiti but it's really beneficial the fact that were so hostile to migration to shows how little respect for the rights of poor people to live wherever they want as like we have the right to live wherever you are turning to the sustainability segment of mind over matter some katy x t seattle ninety point three of them and on the web add k e x t dad or gee i'm diane horan and my guest is bill easterly professor of economics at new york university and author of the book the tyranny of experts economists dictators and the forgotten rights of the poor he would stand harry's history been ignored in designing strategies for development well you know i think the origin and of element is usually place sometime after the end of colonialism analysis of these brand new problems that we were suddenly had this new problem getting poor countries making them and a prosperous ones with reality was it was not a brown to prom but how rich countries are themselves used to the airport agrees to us at the time of

decoration independence rose much poorer than any african country today and erick chose the path of redevelopment and of course the ideal that all men are critical is not respected right away in the us it's taken many generations and still taking time to realize that ideal but that was the north star that guided our progress as a society and that is the key to our successes and becoming developed so we ignore that has truly get away when we think that it's a new problem this poem is already been solved by the application of freedom for individuals what do you hope your book will accomplish well if i was really ambitious hotel actually change people's minds to be more hostile tone autocrats development of the hostile to authoritarian violations of rights of the poor if i don't like how was the middle east hope to accomplish is to just break the silence tejas say yes we can talk about or we can talk about the human rights of the poor a container of the democratic rights for the poor or we can talk about the oppression committed by dictators that is

okay that does need to be printed on discussion right now we have a silent river repression the world bank president has never even used the word democracy many of his speeches have verified that and confirmed it would roll back press office now we have a complete absence of discussion on the subject right now and we need to at least talk about it openly what kind of response he had getting to your book especially from the aid agencies for example well some positive ones some veterans say yes this is an actor at the singular going on that you're not in tough enough conference going on there should be even tougher course are some very negative reactions the us writer upton sinclair on so you'll never make a man understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it i love that sense there's it and you never get a man to understand something on his salary depends on him not understanding it so there is a way which a lot of the existing

experts there john really depends on the not understanding the case for for development of job depends on them embrace and effort and development of course there is camilla resistance from those people who is the best way for it to address global poverty in your view well you know i think people often when a nerve stimulator the the five policy recommendations for treatment differently and washington and london i don't think of syrup place to start for the reverse trip to convince the policymakers to care to read support before the organist her design policies for example forced to welcome to investigate and violated some rights of poor people in uganda with impunity and so i think the first up is simply advocacy for rights for people that we put it on the radar that will make people care there's been a lot of advocacy of bygone on angelina jolie of material poverty of the poor that's great i have nothing against that i'm really glad they put

that on iran's radar and that many people care more about the poor i just wish we didn't neglect the other side of poor people's lives that they also care about their own rights their ability to make her own choices so what do you think is most standing in the way of people caring more about the rights of the poor in developing countries there's a little bit of a double standard which is kind of understandable that we care more about the rights of people who look like us or aquaculture belong to similar cultures and maybe we find a kind of hard to believe that people in other very different cultures really have these values and insurance and that's one barrier but in reality these rats really are universal rights these are not like western values being imposed unrest the world that if you can to service can indicate that i mentioned earlier a letter from instill self use of this beautiful way said we now have to see democracy no longer as esoteric question ever true that as the universal aspirations what is the best approach for individuals who would like to help

people in the poor countries with an autocratic government well again i think your advocacy is the first up and also no advocacy is not to someday general senate can damage concentrate on our own aid agencies like the world bank which the us funds a lot of us government is here is teddy craven putting pressure on the gates foundation which was sensitive to public opinion you know to say hey look please don't preserve crowds don't support of preston finds crabs don't overlook rights violations by autocrats don't yourself finally theresa parker pulling your own projects done by your stadium world bank and he's a very specific things that we can begin the conversation with their own efforts to help are people may come they can be better for people do you see any hopeful trends in addressing global poverty yet again in the long run trend towards greater democracy is positive the organization freedom house cousins classification of other countries around the

world are free not free your pearly free and they've been doing that since nineteen seventy two over that very long time period the trend has been strong outbreak that's a really good nurse in america has to be filled with military rulers announced most democracies africa has less of a really bad autocrats to an ottoman emperor book house of the central african republic and ed i mean in uganda these kind of horrible cartoon figures to use <unk> africa are much less frequent and they're more at new democracies in africa like karma has had five successive free and fair elections serious there is a hopeful trend toward greater democracy and so we're not fighting a losing battle here really from the side of a winning that our party will themselves are successfully getting their own democratic rights on the other side of things do you see any negative trends well you know i think that the aid agencies and the philanthropic foundations are really resisting very hard pease turns he really does make life more complicated they want to figure out simple and it

does make a lot more complicated to say look it's not enough just to do the temple's missions you really have to be sure you're respecting the rights of tripoli are dealing with and they do not in virtually unintentionally helping the dictator a precious part now if you're going to give another example actually took famine relief that was given him by the aid agencies and use it as a political tool to starve the opposition and your family for me twenty rulings party supporters so that's the kind of negative trend has won you know and aid agencies love that kind of behavior than that's going to have a very intimate portraits or what's the message you'd like to leave our listeners let free the poor respect the aspiration for people to be free riders turn things around think about how you if you have some savers from the rest of the world will do that you had rewrites and they carried on a parliamentary party think about for people that they do want to have their own rights respected and respect those rights all men really are created equal thanks so

much for being here bell my pleasure thank you you were just listening to bill easterly professor of economics at new york university and author of the book the tyranny of experts economists dictators and the forgotten rights of the poor published in two thousand and fourteen by basic books for more information check on the web at william easterly dot org again that's william e s t e r l y died or ji the sustainability segment of mind over matters program you're just heard will be on the screening archives section of katie excuse website at atx piano it for the next fourteen days in addition sustainability sigman interviews are available as podcasts along with kei excuse music podcasts go to k e x fidalgo archie cook on demand and then podcasting i'm diane warren thanks for listening and the shooter turned into the sustainability segment again next week and listener powered ninety point the fm and k x p that orgy