International Interview; His Excellency Daniel A. Chapman, Permanent Representative of Ghana to the United Nations ; WNYC

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Tonight's International Interview focuses on one of the newest member nations of the United Nations, Ghana. This nation came into being just 10 months ago when the former colony of the Gold Coast and the trusty ship territory of Togoland attained dominion status. Here to tell us about his country in far off Africa is Ambassador Daniel A. Chapman, newly appointed permanent representative of his country to the United Nations. Ghana occupying 91,843 square miles with a population of 4.12 million will have an increasingly important role to play in the UN and the British Commonwealth of Nations as it attains fuller economic development. Here to interview Ambassador Chapman about his country and its placing world affairs is a panel of foreign correspondents who will now introduce themselves. For the Screen International Review Service. Let's have the first question from you, Mr. Van Kaye. Mr. Ambassador, as a representative of Vietnam in new country like yours, I am sure to express the view of all my countrymen in extending you our very warm welcome to the UN.

Thank you very much. And now my first question will be this. As a new country, like accepting to independence, you must have a very serious problem with the shortage of the technicians, professors, doctors on the one hand. And the shortage of financial means, do you think that the UN and particularly the UNESCO could be helpful for you in a certain way? I think so. Because only a few days ago, a permanent representative of the United Nations Technical Assistance Board was appointed to go to Ghana and live there and coordinate all the assistance we can get from the United Nations. And the various specialized agencies.

Our biggest needs are in the fields of education, health, water supplies. Education, as you know, is a very big subject. It embraces a primary education, secondary school education, technical trading and university education. But our biggest bottleneck now is in secondary education. We don't have enough places in secondary schools for the boys and girls to get through to the universities and the technical high schools. I should think you need money for that. We do. It depends on how fast we want to develop the country. If we want to develop slowly and by gentle stages, then we won't need much help from our outside. But we feel very strongly that we should develop our water river and make use of our vast box-side deposits to be able to set an aluminum industry going. And this will require tremendous amounts of money in the run about 300 million pounds. A lot of money.

You've been talking about aid that the UN could give you. What about bilateral aid? Don't you cooperate with Israel? Doesn't Israel send technical missions to Ghana? Our association with Israel has been very recent. It arose out of a visit made to Israel by one or two of our ministers and a few advisors. There they discovered that Israelis had established a very flourishing shipping line. And so we've entered into agreements with them to provide 60% of the capital needed for shipping line ourselves and to ask the Israeli to provide 40%. On the basis of that we are starting a shipping line. Then also we are expecting the Israeli to establish one or two companies in our country to carry out development projects. And I understand a few of our men are in Israel for training in marine work and in other subjects. But it is nothing that has been premeditated. It's a question of entering into commercial relations with a country which you think can help you one way or the other.

But you remember the Asia and the Black. Doesn't this association with Israel make it difficult with your relations with the Arabs? I don't think a block is a real word for it. It's only in former discussions we hold among ourselves because as you know the countries of Europe have their peculiar problems. In the same way the countries of African Asia who have been colonial for so long have their own peculiar problems and we meet occasionally to look into these problems to see whether we can understand each other better and to follow certain lines in certain matters of common interest to us. Which we have common experiences. Mr. Ambassador I wanted to follow up this line of questioning and enter into a sort of broader aspect. We correspondents here at the UN have been watching your voting record in both in the General Assembly and in several committees very closely. And I find it most interesting to notice that Ghana's vote were taking sort of unbiased.

And that on colonial questions or on questions of disarmament you took a very moderate attitude. Would you kindly elaborate on the general philosophy which the Ghana delegation conducts in their voting and in taking sides on various issues? Let's take the question of colonial matters first. Until recently we've been colonial people. In fact we were under British rule for more than 100 years. And now we've tested independence. We know what it's like. And we realize that a new spirit enters the people to develop their own resources, to develop the human material available to them.

And to do things on their own. And we think other countries in Africa which under colonial rule should also get their freedom. So our line in the colonial field is to support the nations that are sparing to obtain their freedom. With regard to the bigger questions of disarmament and so on we ourselves wouldn't say that we have adopted a moderate attitude. Our votes have always been based on this idea of supporting whatever is practical. Whatever will work. If we find that a proposal is put forward no matter by which country will not work we abstain. And our purpose in abstaining is to leave the door open for further discussions. And you'll be interested to hear that when we were voting on this disarmament question we did a little arithmetic in the general assembly.

We discovered that there were first the six nations closely tied to the Soviet block. Then there were 11 nations which would be considered neutral making 17. Then we counted the other names proposed and we found the names numbered 17. And these were countries in the Western block or for the Western block. So there were 17 on one side and 17 on the other side. I realized fully that some nations wanted the disarmament commission to be a proportional reflection of the attitudes in the general assembly. But our point of view there is that you have constant shifts in the opinions of most of these members. So you couldn't say definitely that one nation was awaited permanently to any particular line.

But it was interesting to get these figures to show that there were the six Soviet block 11 so-called uncommitted nations on the one side and then the 17 on the pro-Westen side. So 17, 17. And anyway we did not vote for the thing we abstained because we felt that the thing would not be acceptable to the parties most interested. We wanted to leave the door open. Could you tell us the position of your government concerning Algeria? Oh that's very difficult. The thing is we are new. For the first time I've had the story. I've told by the foreign minister of France. And this morning I heard the story. I was told by the division delegation. So we want to get the facts before we make our minds. But our chief aim is that we should support anything that will lead to peace. Anything that will lead to understanding. We do not want to follow blindly one side or the other because that wouldn't have very much. We are a small country. We haven't got much influence.

But we think this is the way in which we can contribute something. Mr. Ambassador, I ask you the question because the Algeria and the disarmament are the two burning questions of the day. Yes. With respect to Algeria you need to give us time. We want to hear both sides to be able to establish our own position. But our line is that colonial peoples should obtain their freedom. The British rule us. The British are given us freedom. And we are very good friends of the British. There are many British people working for us before independence. Now they get better conditions of service. In many ways they are happier with us now. And we want many more British people which we are not even able to get. So if you give people freedom you may be happier. Make more ways for your country and get employment for more of your people. That's the way I look at it. You say your theme is to give people their freedom. We cannot give freedom.

If the people should be free. You are having an Africa conference which I believe Ghana is to be the host of. Sometimes soon I don't know when you could tell us. But are you going to invite Algeria to that conference? Algeria is an African country. No, we cannot. The conference is only for the independent states of Africa. And Algeria is not independent. So we cannot very well say an invitation to Algeria besides the French might protest most vigorously. I would not want to become enemies of the French or necessarily. Could you tell us about the conference while we are at it? I can't give you full details about the conference. It arose out of the feeling that there were many aspects of world problems which could be looked at from a particular standpoint by the African nations. So we thought if we all came together and compared notes will arrive at more or less common policies.

It's not that we are aiming at framing identical policies. Of course that would be impossible. And what we are doing first is to get together a number of officials to come and explore the ground, to find out whether there is a need for this conference, whether a fruitful discussion could take place, and whether these discussions could be followed up with concrete and useful results. After these civil servants have done their groundwork, then the ministers and so on will meet to see what could be done. How many states have been invited to this conference? All the independent states of Africa. Eight, I think. Eight. And when will this conference be? I suppose in January 1958. Mr. Ambassador in connection with this, the General Assembly has just decided to establish the Economic Commission for Africa.

Can you say something about what the Economic Commission for Africa is going to do? And how this African conference will tie in with the establishment of the Economic Commission for Africa? I can't give you much information on that just now. Because things are still under discussion and details how to be worked out. There's a question of where the headquarters should be located, the representation. You want the headquarters to be in Ghana, and I wouldn't say so. We still have an open mind on that subject. Mr. Vanke? I think that you agree with me that the Bandung Conference a few years ago has had a very great significance in the evolution of the Afro-Asian countries. And there are reports that there will be another new Bandung Conference. Does your government favor that conference?

I don't know what my government is thinking on this particular matter because I've been away from home for nearly a month now. But when we attended the Bandung Conference, we had been still a colony. So we're not full members of the conference. But it was a good thing. It is a good thing always for the people of one country to travel around and to see other countries. Even if they have nothing specific to do. They learn many lessons, they meet new people, they get inspiration and all that. Mr. Chapman, speaking of the Bandung Conference, I believe that characterized the tendency today in politics for the world to divide itself between colored, so-called colored and so-called white. What do you think about this tendency? You probably noticed it too. I myself would condemn that tendency. Because all my training has not been based on that.

I went to a school called Achimata College. Our badge there is the Piano Keyboard. The area being, then you can play a tune of sorts on the white keys alone, a tune of sorts on the black keys alone. But to get the best harmonies, we have to use both the black and the white keys. And I believe strongly that although we can do a great deal ourselves, we still need other people from other parts of the world, no matter what they're color, to cooperate with us, to reach the best harmonies for the welfare of mankind. So we don't have these prejudices. I think to be a great pity to divide the world into two groups, black and white, or to never worth. Speaking of harmony Mr. Ambassador, how does democracy work in Ghana? Our own native system was very democratic. The new thing we've incorporated into the old system now is the party system.

An arising of the party system is the parliamentary democracy as practiced in the commonwealth countries, where you have the government party and also the loyal opposition. Because as we say in my language, one person cannot encompass the barba tree with his own arms. The barba tree is a very big tree, very big. So you need many people to come together to be able to encompass it. So you need the government side as well as the opposition side. So we believe very strongly in parliamentary democracy. Mr. Ambassador, you have seen Mr. Hamasher as Secretary General several times. As you know, we people from the fires, we are very attracted by his personality. He has captured the imagination of millions of people in the fires, especially since the events of last year in Egypt. Now I would like to know your opinion about him, about his activities, the way he handles the political problems.

I'm afraid I've been a little out of touch with his activities and with the activities of the United Nations. I was, I spent nearly eight years here at the UN, as a member of the Secretary of the United Nations. When Secretary Lee was Secretary General, then I went home and Secretary Lee came here. Hamasher came here just before I went home. So I'm afraid I cannot give you any opinion on what is done. I've met him. He's been very kind to me. He even invited me to go and have a chat with him. Even if I had nothing special to tell him. I'm looking forward to the opportunity of seeing him. And after that, I'll be in a position to answer your question. Thank you. Mr. Chapman, I want to come back to Dr. Lighter's question about democracy in Ghana. Exactly what is the extent of freedoms that are offered there now? I don't mean by the Constitution. I mean that are actually practiced. And I'm especially thinking about the reports we've got here of the trial of the newsmen there who, and the trial, the protest against the trial was based on freedom of the press, which it was charged Ghana was not extending to these men.

As a matter of fact, we have not had any trial of any newsmen in the country. And democracy there is as safe as in any country of the world. I don't know of any country yet, and I've traveled over most countries of Europe and America. Where people are free, both men and women, than in Ghana. You need to go there to see it for yourselves. Can they write whatever they want, say whatever they want? Certainly. What about the newsmen who were expelled? The newsmen. There was one newsman, New Superman. He was a foreigner. Even during the British period, it was a custom to send out of the country, foreigners, whose activities were allowable to lead to confusion, bloodshed, and so on. And as you will remember, there was a good deal of trouble in a shanty, in Kumasi in particular, just before independence, when soda water bottles were thrown about.

And these things were done, owing to what people had been told, what the red in the papers, and owing to the actions of certain people. And our prime minister, Dr. Komi in Kumasi, is very anxious to demonstrate the world that black men can rule their own countries in peace. And so he is very anxious not to allow people to cause trouble unnecessarily, especially foreigners. It's just like some people from New York importing one or two Mexicans. They come and create trouble here in New York. And you will feel justified in sending them back to their own country. But we don't. Hasn't there been any difference of opinion between the prime minister and minister of interior regarding civil liberties? No, the point is, we have the cabinet system of government in our country. And the cabinet is responsible as a body for whatever policy is made by the government. So anything that happens, you can put other doors of the government as a whole, with the prime minister as the head.

Now, Mr. Ambassador, I would like to return to my first question. Do you think that the point four of President Truman's plans would be helpful to your country? Very helpful. But we are waiting. Oh, we need the technicians, we need money, we need new ideas. We want to do things we do on a small scale, on a bigger scale in the future. And these are our things in which our point four will be very helpful. And the America, America, as you all know, has the most helpful to many countries of the world without taking our way, the independence away from them. You see, that is the sort of thing we want. Colonialism, we do not support. Because some of the most of the benefits, practically all the benefits of colonialism, can be extended by free countries to other free countries. You know what happened in Europe, France, England and so on. After the first Second World War, they got tremendous help from America without which they would not have survived probably. But America never asked them to give up their freedom or the independence. That's the sort of thing we like.

What about aid from the Soviet Union? Have you considered that or has been offered? The thing is, the Soviet Union is so far away from us and we've never associated with them closely, that we simply have not got down to think of the relations we could have with them. Most of our men were educated in England or in America. So these are the countries they know most about. So we are here to learn about the Soviet Union and what they can give us. As you say, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. But would you accept aid from Russia if it were offered? Or that would be something to be discussed by the cabinet because we don't take decisions on these things very likely. All the implications have to be considered very carefully. Hasn't it ever been offered? No, that no. Oh, I know. The United Nations trusteeship council, I think, called upon various member states of the UN to offer scholarships to people of trust territories and colonial territories for high education in various countries of the world. But maybe some offers were made by the Soviet Union and some other countries. But we have our own university college in Ghana. We still have about 100 empty places.

We do not want to take places we should be given to other territories when we have still empty places in our own university college. I'm sorry to interrupt, but our time is up. You have been listening to an international interview with Ambassador Daniel A. Chapman, the newly appointed permanent representative of Ghana to the United Nations. Joining in the questioning were Phyllis Green of the International Review Service, Otto Leister of the German Press Agency of Hamburg, and Mr. Tron von Ki of the Segonbau of Vietnam.