Campus Press Conference; Francis J. Bloustein

Does New York City have the physical capacity to expand in the next few years? Does the city have the governmental machinery it needs to cope with metropolitan problems? What will New York City be like in 1975? For the answers to these and other questions, listen now to your city station's campus press conference. In this transcribed discussion, the editors of college newspapers question a prominent personality in the news. Marvin Sleeper, award-winning reporter and columnist for the New York Journal American is the moderator of this series. Now to introduce the panel and tonight's guest, here is Mr. Sleeper. Good evening and welcome to another edition of Campus Press Conference. Our guest tonight is Commissioner Francis J. Bloustein, Vice Chairman of the City Planning Commission. The City Planning Commission comprises the chief engineer of the Board of Estimate and six members appointed by the mayor. They are responsible for the master plan for developing new schools, parks, hospitals, roads and other public improvements. The city bill is subject of course to approval by the Board of Estimate. So let's find out what big improvements Mr. and Mrs. New Yorker can look forward to in the years to come. And here to question Commissioner Bloustein, our campus press conference reporter is Michael Speelman of the CCNY campus.

Marvin Oppenberg of the NYU Square Journal and Ronald Deutsch of the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism. Now what about the first question from you, Mike Speelman? Well Commissioner, just how does the City Planning Commission operate? Well Mike, the City Planning Commission is an agency created under the New York City Charter. And as Mr. Sleeper indicated, it consists of seven members appointed by the mayor of the City of New York. A chairman, a vice chairman, a five other members. City Planning Commission has within its jurisdiction a wide variety of matters involving not only the capital budget, already alluded to, but also the question of zoning, the use of land in the City of New York, the question of mapping of the city, the question of streets, roads, all these matters involved in the planning of a great city such as New York City. The question from Marvin Oppenberg. Commissioner Bloustein, just how does this committee go about in planning for such a metropolis as New York? Well, in many instances, the Commission, not a committee, operates on its own initiative.

In other instances, it operates on referrals from the Board of Estimates. And matters affecting the street system, which is peculiarly under the Charter within the jurisdiction of the borough presidents. Each borough president will submit to the Board of Estimate. They propose map change. It may be the widening of a street. It may be the closing of a street. It may be the opening of a new street. Board of Estimate refers the matter to the City Planning Commission. City Planning Commission then proceeds, makes its report, either agreeing with the opening of widening, narrowing or closing of the street, submits it to the Board of Estimate for final approval. In essence, the City Planning Commission is a recommendatory agency. And matters as zoning, it operates in about 90% of the instances, on its own initiative, with respect to the use to which land can be put, with respect to the height to which buildings can go, and the area of land to be occupied by buildings. And that way, we can control not only land use, but also the density of population in the city and the York.

It may be interesting to find out who are these members of the City Planning Commission. I don't mean by name, but what are your qualifications to take on such a gargantuan job? Well, as you indicated, one of the members, by statute, is the chief engineer of the city in the York. He is basically the liaison officer between the City Planning Commission and the Board of Estimate, because he is the chief engineer of the Board of Estimate appointed by the Board. The other members are people with very good knowledge of the City. One of them is Bob Moses, who has been a colleague of mine for some 20-some years. For myself, I handled the zoning work of the Planning Commission, and before that, prior to 1938, when the work was handled by the Board of Estimate and Opportionment. I, as a member of the Law Department, defended many actions in the courts involving questions of zoning, I represented the Board of Standards and Appeals, the Department of Buildings. So I have a wide background in that respect. In addition to that, the Chairman of the Commission is a man with a profound knowledge of real estate matters in the City.

Having been in the business over many years, has knowledge of financing, and is tremendously interested in social improvement in the City in the York. Ronald Deutsch. Commissioner, you said the City Planning Commission primarily recommends, how much autonomy does it have, how influential is it? Well, in many matters in which it has an initiative, it is autonomous to the extent that by initiating matters, it does exercise a tremendous influence as a Recommendatory Agency before the Board of Estimate. I could refer briefly, because time does limit me, to our work on the Capital Budget. We established Capital Budget, establishing priorities, based on recommendations, of course, of the various capital budget is the budget for planning big public improvements against the expense budget. That's correct.

That's the day-to-day expenses of the City for running the City. I'm glad you mentioned that, Mr. Sleeper, because many people confuse both budgets. The Capital Budget, if I may take a minute, is the construction budget for capital improvements to the City, involving public buildings, arterial highways, courthouses, bridges, pollution control plants, and the like. While your expense budget comes out of tax monies, and your capital budget is financed through bond money. Now, in setting up the Capital Budget, which is initiated with the Commission after public hearing, we make determinations. And then they are submitted to the Board of Estimate. The Board of Estimate, of course, has a veto power, and rightfully so, because they are the elected officials of the City and the York. They are more responsive to the needs of the community. In that respect, control of purse strings. And they can draw the purse strings, because none of that capital money can be spent until a City Department makes a request to the Board of Estimate to approve either the acquisition of land for a public building, or the approval of a contract for construction of a particular project already approved in the Capital Budget.

Now, there are approximately 30 City departments, and each one of them wants something done each year, in a way of capital improvements, new building, new hospitals, hospital apartments, one, new schools, schools, Board of Education ones. Do many of your requests made up of those, from those requests from the 30 agencies, what part of your work comprises these requests? Almost all of the, I'm assuming, Mr. Sleepy-O, directing a question to the Capital Budget only. Yes, of course. In coming to a conclusion with respect to the Capital Budget, we, of course, undertake the requests of these various City departments. They, in this past year, submitted requests to us that went beyond $900 million, and of course, we're bound by certain constitutional limitations, and we couldn't come anywhere near that sum. We granted them a considerable sum of money based on a certificate issued by the control of the City of New York, and by the mayor of the City of New York.

We're bound by that certificate. And how much was that cut down? Not the entire change in the budget, both in exempt funds and non-exempt funds, that is funds which are limited by the constitutional debt limit, and those not limited. The difference between what we submitted to the Board of Estimate, what the Board of Estimate finally approved, showed a variable of about $1 million. In fact, the Board of Estimate approved a Capital Budget of $1 million more than we did. Which is a very interesting thing between what the 30 agencies asked for, and what you recommended to the Board of Estimate. We recommended about $223 million. It was cut down. We regret very much that we have to do this, because many of the requests are very desirable requests by the departments for schools, libraries, hospitals, health centers, courthouses, criminal prisons, and the like. But because of shortages, we have to establish priorities to provide for the services to the people.

Commissioner, what is the new Capital Budget, which is now before the Board of Estimate to provide for next year? Well, the Capital Budget, the Board of Estimate already approved the Capital Budget on December 4th. It's now before the City Council, and the City Council has authority only to delete from the budget, not add to the budget. And that provides for over $600 million of funds for new construction for the fiscal year, or rather the county year of 1958. Mike Spillin. Commissioner, will New York City be able to continue to expand, and does it have the physical capacity for expansion? Mike, if you're referring to whether or not within the geographic limits of the City in New York we can expand my answers, certainly we can. We have vast tracks of land still unbuilt upon in Staten Island. A good deal of land still to be built upon in Queens, and then the Bronx. Very frequently, we think of New York as Manhattan, and we don't think in times of the other boroughs, Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Staten Island, where we have ample room for our community to expand.

Marvin Atenberg. Commissioner Blasstein, what developments do you foresee for the growth of Staten Island once the new Throgg's neck bridges open? I think the potential is tremendous. There's a vast field in many applications that have come to the commission by way of zoning requests, request by city agencies for new construction in Staten Island, indicate that almost everybody recognizes the potential for growth within the borough of Richmond. Could you give us a little more specific idea of what Staten Island can look forward to when that bridges up? That's a bridge that will cut down the traveling time, the 20-minute ferry ride that you now have to take between Staten Island and Lower Manhattan will be cut down to what? Oh, going through Brooklyn, and then through the arterial system in Brooklyn, and in Manhattan, or how to a long island, of course.

If you've recently seen the work that the commission has done based on the recommended joint study of the Port of New York Authority and the Tribe Bar Bridge and Tunnel Authority, you'll find that the entire arterial highway system is bound up with these bridges, and the new lane and the George Washington Bridge will make travel very simple and very easy. And we look forward to a very desirable growth and land use in the borough of Richmond, where residences can flourish very nicely, and it's a beautiful place to live in, and I expect that, of course, when people congregate, for residential purposes in any place like this, you must provide services for the community. These services are not only for retailing, to provide them with necessary food and other services, but the usual services that government owes to a community such as schools, welfare, social services that the park department might provide. We have a tremendous program for park improvement along the waterfront, which will be a boon to the entire community there.

We look forward to a new Jones Beach area out there. Yes, probably even to a greater extent. And Mr. Moses has been devoting a good deal of time and effort, and many studies have been made. And the likelihood is that in this place, with the many parks that already exist, and the golf courses that exist, people will find a very desirable place not only to live, but to visit. Have you any indication that land values are already going up out there because of this proposed bridge? For my own knowledge, no, but I anticipate, because of my long years with the commission, that is probably the case. Commissioner, did you say that New York is already planning for underground parking facilities? I did not say that. Well, is New York planning for the future underground parking facilities, such as San Francisco provides and its big park areas? I don't know that that is so. I haven't seen any such plans.

I haven't seen plans by either private investors or by the Department of Traffic, which would seem to indicate any underground garages or street parking facilities. Ronald Deutsch. Commissioner, today many political scientists have been contending that metropolitan problems, many problems go unsolved because no machinery exists for deciding upon and carrying out solutions. They say that the metropolitan area in general is too large for governing, governing by existing local governments. I wondered if you would comment on that belief. Well, the question is a philosophic hypothetical question that I could comment on in a rather general way because it's dealing with government rather than with the subject that we're seeking to develop here and that is the work of the planning commission and its function within the city of New York. But I don't quite agree that government cannot cope with these problems.

Certainly we have problems today that we didn't have 20 years ago, problems today, we didn't have 100 years ago. But I think we're ingenious enough to improvise if we have to and to go beyond it to cope with these problems when it's necessary to do so. We all always have not only the instinct, but those of us who have been in government for many years, I think have to know how to be able to do it. What we need basically is cooperation of all the agencies and cooperation of our citizens to understand that we are people of good will, those of us who are in government and have made government our life work, our interest is the people. And I don't think that it creates the kind of problem that your question put to me. Wouldn't you say that the big problem is money and that if you had all the money you needed, there would be very few problems and solving. Mr. Sleepy, you put your finger on it because with the longevity, generally speaking, of people in our population and with the science of geriatrics, what it is, we're having an aging population. People are living longer. People are retiring at an age because government now provide some security form.

That does present somewhat of a problem of providing the necessary services for these people. Our museums, our libraries, our centers, for those who are in firm and need help, have to be expanded from time to time. And as you say, Mr. Sleepy, if the requisite money was available, there's no doubt we have the know-how, we have the ability, we have the space, we have the competent personnel to put such money to good use, and we'd be able to provide for our population adequately. Mike Spielman. Well, Commissioner, as a city planner, what do you envision for the future? Do you think there will be a decentralization of certain parts of our city, kind of spread things out over the whole area of New York? But do you think that within a few years, all of Brooklyn and Queens and Staten Island too will be as densely populated as Lower Manhattan is today? Oh, I don't look to decentralization. I've had a feeling over the years that congestion breeds prosperity, and I use that in thinking mainly of retail areas and retail centers.

This theory of decentralizing or spreading things out, I don't think accomplishes or achieves what you want. People are gregarious by instinct, they want to live close to each other, they want to be with each other, they want to live within close proximity to their shopping, to their services, to their theaters, to their restaurants, to all the things that provide them with the amenities of life. And I don't look to a great decentralization in Manhattan, nor in those areas that you've mentioned. Let's get to one specific problem that the city planning commission faced several years ago. The state gave the city the right to spend $500 million to build a new second avenue subway system.

The subway system was never built. All but I understand about 130 million of that money has been spent on other purposes in improving the transit facilities. Whatever happened to that second avenue subway, which started with the city planning commission. I want to say now, Mr. Sleeper, that my comments up to this point and answering questions from here on in, of course, are my comments, my personal comments, I don't speak for the commission. I want to make that clear, not only to the panel, to you, but to the listening audience. My colleagues might differ from me. And so it is even in this question. It was intended, of course, that there be a second avenue subway and a trunk line. But the costs became so great of the proposed second avenue subway that the $500 million would never adequately provide for it. On the other hand, the existing system and the statute was drawn to provide for it required rehabilitation, maintenance, reconstruction.

And the required or was it in the statute as I understand it that it could be used for a second avenue subway or other transit improvements. The language is, and the existing lines under operation. I believe that's the specific language in the statute. With that in view, the commission felt for myself, I speak, certainly, when I say that when we were faced with the problem of an existing, putting an existing line in safe condition for operation, or leaving the money liable because you couldn't contract for a second avenue trunk line within the $500 million. Of course, it was wise to spend that money as we did spend it, and that is in the improvement of the existing transit system. Well, let's just one moment before your next question, Marvin. That's so in the subway system and that the cost would go up and you figured you couldn't put it up for $500 million.

What about your schools where you appropriate $3 million for a school and then rising cost, the cost of steel go up. And it finally cost you almost $4 million or $3.5 million. You don't stop building the school because the cost of going up, why'd they stop building the subway? Well, because that $500 million was basically an exempt from the constitutional debt limit. And it would have meant going back and seeking a vote to increase that summer money because you couldn't operate under the constitutional debt limit. With schools, we operate under the constitutional debt limit. And while there is a limitation, and sometimes we feel ourselves in a straight jacket, we do the best we can within such limitations. Marvin Appenberg. Commissioner Bloustein, much of the housing developments in New York City recently have been for either low income or high income families. And the middle income families have been caught in the squeeze and have to leave the city for suburbia. What programs are being considered for the middle income families in housing?

The mayor has done a tremendous job in housing. He has been interested as you know in housing. And I know that within the next several months, he's going to devote himself entirely to a study of the question for housing for people in the middle income group. We have made some advances under legislation of the state legislature, with Lama Mitchell, Mitchell Lama money, for middle income housing by permitting the city to make money available, mortgage money available, and other concessions. And I think I look forward to both private development and the city assisting in middle income housing. What do you consider middle income housing? How much a room? That's been a question. Well, it's difficult. I'm not in the real estate business. I can only tell you what I have gathered over the years. I suppose middle income housing is housing that will provide for rentals, unit rentals of rooms, anywhere from $35 to $42 a room. And the three room apartment has to cost over $100 a month.

Now, that's true, but some middle income housing has been put up by some developers for $34 a room. Could you call that middle income housing if the average take home pay these days is $80 a week for the mass of the people? No. But with construction costs, what it is, and if we've got a distinguished staff from high income, which is running over $50 a room, you've got a differential between your $24 and $50. And somewhere in the thirties, that probably takes care of your middle income housing. Marvin Apenberg. Commissioner, one last question. Do you think that New York will see the elimination of urban blight and erosion and above all the abolition of slums? There'll always be a safe amount of obsolescence. But I do believe we're making great headway and the commission has been working on an open redevelopment plan, which ought to be available within the next several months, I believe, the report ought to be out. In which we try to tackle this very question of blight without using a bulldozer. I'm sorry, but our time is just about up. You've been listening to a campus press conference with Commissioner Francis Bloustein, vice chairman of the City Planning Commission as our guest.

Questioning him where campus press conference reporters Mike Spielman of the CCNY campus, Marvin Apenberg of the NYU Square Journal, and Ronald Deutsch of the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism. Many thanks for tuning in and a very pleasant week to you all. Editors of college newspapers have just interviewed Francis J. Bloustein, vice chairman of the New York City Planning Commission on campus press conference. Marvin Sleeper, columnist for the New York Journal American is the moderator of this series. We invite your comments on the program. Please mail them to campus press conference WNYC, New York 7. Be with us again next Sunday at our regular time, which is 9 p.m. for Campus Press Conference, a transcribed public affairs feature of your city station.