¡Colores!; 801; Santa Fe Trail: With Each Turn of the Wheel; Interview with Dr. David Sandoval, #1

I'm on the spot, okay, just let that time code right do it, you're right, the t-shirt works almost a little goober's, okay I'm rolling, if first of all if you would just identify yourself for the sake of the loggers. My name is Davi Samdoval, David Sandoval, standard spelling, and your title is? I'm a professor of Chicano Studies in History, okay is that how you'd like your credit to be listed at University of Southern Colorado, Pueblo, okay, Dr. Sandoval, given I'm not sure where we really want to start if we're really looking at the period primarily between 21 and 48. The Mexican period? Yeah, coming in Mexican independence. And

you and your essay had called this a legacy of misunderstanding or this whole era or this I guess the place to start with is at the beginning and Spain's policies were pretty clear they prohibited any kind of Anglo-American incursion into the region whatsoever. If people came into the area like David Mary Weather, Robert McKnight, Zebulan Pike, they found themselves in a Spanish jail. So when Mexican independence was achieved in 1821 under the tricolor and the green being economic independence one of the first things that happened was the governor of New Mexico, Fagunda Melgaris, who had been out as a soldier out in the Plains region sent soldiers out to look for what he figured were out in the Plains illegal traders and they found them. They found William Becknell and several others. The fellow by name of Jacob Fowler was in Santa Fe

shortly after and he was in the Pueblo area. He moved south from here but with Becknell coming into Santa Fe and making such a tremendous profit the story is when he came back to El Rock he dropped his coin on the cobblestone and the sound rang forever. Now you've got an open frontier between two societies that have been separated by law for hundreds of years. They've been enemies who had fought to the death over God and particularly God as well as government. The people in New Mexico were living in out in the hinterland in the boonies. Well a lot of people don't know is to motivate these folks to go up. The King of Spain granted them titles of mobility in perpetuity. Usually titles of ability ran for two generations but it was really hard to try to convince people to come up to an isolated area. We moved from major traffic patterns in Mexico by 70 miles of desert known as the Journey of the Dead but they got the people up

here and they were living on subsistence economy, corn economy in many ways, sheep economy in many ways, with very few manufactured goods without any kind of luxuries. Caravans were required to come north from Chihuahua at least once every three years. One came north every year but that they were required tells you the difficulty of communication. So in 1821 not only did the West open up for the United States but the East opened up for Mexico and I think if we look at one single thing that affected the shaping of nations is the shift from the East to West to West to East as opposed to North to South movement of peoples and travels because of the way society moved. But in 1821 it began. By 1824 the Mexican governor Bartholomebaka was sending emissaries to the United States to try to engage in trade relations. Someone we went all the way to

Washington DC. By 1824 the market in Santa Fe was saturated. Santa Fe was really a conduit for New Mexican for rather for American goods coming into New Mexico and going south. You could go three areas on one guilla, one passport and you wanted to try to hit the areas where you could get the best tax benefit. So in December you wanted to be at San Juan de los Lagos down south. So the trade actually the Santa Fe trade is more like a spoke wheel design. We are Santa Fe being the hub. One leg of it going with what we call the Santa Fe trade to the United States but another hub breaking off and going to Los Angeles in 1829 and going further south into Mexico. The Mexican people in New Mexico subsistence farmers and sheep herders within two generations began to negotiate in world markets. They got goods from Liverpool, England. They got

goods from Spain. They negotiated contracts for goods through a Spanish firm in New York, Peter Harmony, nephew's and company and the nephew's happened to be on the trail in 1846 when the war broke out. By the 1840s the political situation changed quite a bit both in Mexico as well as in the United States. In Mexico the battle was what we faced with the Civil War. Centralism versus federalism. The question of centralism versus federalism brought a civil war to New Mexico in 1837. The González revolt as it was called. The governor Pettis was killed. But that same era also brought in the reaction and the rebellion in Texas and Texas claimed all the way to the Rio Grande. Initially they claimed to the Pacific and then when people quit laughing they told just as a renters a big story and claimed to the Rio Grande which would make Santa Fe and Taos and El Paso part of Texas and they never had yet. But the Texans began to lay claim to the region and they were in debt and they wanted

the Santa Fe trade goods to themselves. There had been an experiment to try to bypass Santa Fe in 1839 by Henry Connelly who later marries into the Chavez family and does very well as a territorial governor in New Mexico. But in 1839 he and a hundred Chihuahua merchants. I'm rolling. So we were in 1839 and you were talking about the 1930s were a period of refinement of the trade. I mean as far as getting goods packed up and so on. But the political affairs of centralism versus federalism tearing up Mexico at the time led to rebellion in New Mexico and partly to the Texas question. Texas was in debt and wanted the trade goods. So they started sending out raiders into New Mexico and they attacked more in New Mexico and they killed a Mexican merchant on Don Juan Jose Chavez on the trail itself. They actually had a whole army waiting for the caravan when Philip St. George Cook leading the American end of it. Captured that Texan

army. Texas threatened to war with the United States over that issue. What's amazing is the United States took position in 1843 that the region was Mexico not Texas and three years later of course in 46 the United States goes to war with Mexico claiming this land as part of the United States. So it's ironic that we have a protein shift in a three-year period. I mean it just happened overnight as far as who this territory belonged to. But calmly tried at bypass New Mexico and he was successful. The New Mexicans went to the National Assembly in Mexico through their representative and they argued with always been subsidized in the territorial period whether in the Spanish period we're always subsidized. Finally we have income where we don't have to be subsidized and Santa Fe was protected by law as a conduit for that trade. It was cheaper and easier to go other routes but Santa Fe trade route was a political concern and it always was going to be a political concern. What came

across by 43 most observers were remarked that most of the people on the trail are Mexicans but Mexicans had been on the trail for quite some time. 1824 as far as merchants are concerned 23, 1823 as far as adiettos or mule teas are concerned that we know of maybe even before that as far as merchant goods are concerned but they began to traffic as commercial agents themselves besides the mule tears and the packers. As people came from the United States people came from Mexico and went into the United States. A number of young kids went to schools in the United States. There's a famous story told about Mariano Chavez saying goodbye to his son Francisco Chavez who went off to school. There's a lot of doubt as to whether that story really is true. It was certainly good political posturing for Francisco Chavez when he came back but his father

supposedly told him if he didn't he should have. Go back learn their language and come back prepared to defend your people. Many observers in New Mexico realized what was happening. They knew that it just wasn't trade goods. These people were coming in. They were marrying. They were purchasing property. There was conflict. Some of them were involved with the Texan movement itself. William Workman would get kicked out in New Mexico because of that. There was conflict. Many of the individuals realized that there were substantial changes occurring around them and they tried to prepare themselves for that eventuality. Fearing probably most the impact on their religion. The Estran Heros is what they call the Angle Americans. The Protestants and they had a passion for hating Catholics and the Catholics had a passion for hating the Protestants. The societies that evolved that way. So for many New Mexicans the biggest fear were the Americans who came in. For many of the Americans when they came into the region they

didn't understand Catholicism as the New Mexicans practiced it. I remember reading one account of one fellow saying that he was in church. He couldn't believe these people were as religious as they made out to be because he had heard the same music at the dance last night. Well it was the same instruments but it was different music. He just didn't understand the difference. There were a number of individuals who were very interested in the region as well. There was a newspaper editor of the New Orleans Picket Union, George Wilkins Kendall, who will write the definitive study of the Texan invasion of 42 and 43 when they try to accomplish their claims. But he sent a reporter out on the field, Matthew Field, Rocky Mountain Sketches, captured the essence of the time and the people and the movements. He was I guess a curator of culture as he brought what he believed to be culture to other folks. What's amazing is the kinds of images the both sides had of each other. The Americans viewed the Mexicans as how he's

smoking. Almost every woodcut you're going to see, you're going to see a Mexican smoking. What they were smoking was called Buncha and they had received a special dispensation for the tobacco monopoly and they grew it in New Mexico and there was a wild version of Buncha also available. Mexican smoked, they didn't think anything about it. But to many Americans that was shocking especially when women smoked. The Mexicans had refined the vice to the degree that they would place metal fingerings on their fingers to absorb the color of the tobacco on their skin. Tensitas de Oro if they were made of gold and Tensitas de Plata if they were made of silver. But they would hold the cigarette. One American commented that it did wonders as far as keeping the tobacco color off their hands but their breath was terrible. It was terrible. So you had two people coming together bringing different goods both working in concert at

times but also facing difficult a difficult situation because of political ideology attitude and cultural chauvinism that has its origins in the 16th century with what we call the black legend or responophobia. Refine through time in passage. The Spaniards had their own cast class system. The Americans had their unique sense of racism applied. And when they came together in this region it was a shock for both sides. Josiah Gregg comments about running into an American black in El Paso at one time. And he doesn't like how the black is being treated because he's being treated very cordially by the captain's wife. And he makes reference to the Subi Don George who remembers how things were back in his country as he looks for a job. It shocked Americans to see black treated well. It wasn't what they were you could custom to. So there was a cultural

shock. The Mexicans looked the Americans as being close to being animals. And you figured that the first ones that they saw were mountain men and in the Tows region primarily. And I imagine they did look a little bit like animals. They lived out in the wild most of the time. It made sense. But they were also viewed as being heathen and being very disrespectful and not knowing how to act in polite company. Very aggressive and rude. So I guess the 19th century version of the Ugly American. Bill Manard, James Schoes, yeah. That's great. My answer just about quite a few questions right there. One of the things you mentioned was the the trans sort of Santa Fe becoming this the shifting from

a from a North South route to a continental even to a world market. I mean it really opened up. So these two countries and Santa Fe has never been the same. Yeah. No, it became the hub. It was the hub of a multi-spoked wheel that went in many different directions. The lifeline came from the United States. No doubt. And another lifeline came from the interior of Mexico. No doubt. But the spurs that it caused to go out in a variety of areas. I mean almost overnight it's like if you went to a Pacific Island and found the old Japanese soldiers still fight World War II. I mean it just a whole new world occurred. And the Mexicans responded. When the Kiravans came in they fired a cannon. They parted in a great time. It was it was the time for happiness, a dance. Fandango. You know it. We're gonna do a recreation of a

Fandango. Great. Great. I met a lady in Santa Fe who does a oh she does one of the web Susan McOffin on the trail. Oh, Ben and more. Yeah. And that lady was out of mouth. Too bad your trial trail isn't gonna take you to Ben's fort. You can see the old room where she stayed. Oh, okay. So you've seen that where they have it fixed up for. Yeah, she was supposed to have been the first white woman on the trail and then they found another white woman on the trail and reported out. Yeah, Mary Russell's the one who was as a young Mary O'Donohue. Yeah. But then some of the folks pointed out like I did in 1829 there were a bunch of Spanish women on the trail going from Santa Fe to the United States. They'd been kicked out. Right. So and that's why they were getting run out as they were European. Right. I guess it depends on how you define what white is in the changing the world. New Mexico had a lot of resources and and yet people viewed as you said, viewed New Mexicans and Mexicans has really been incapable of

governing themselves, adulterers, you know, lazy, obstinate, and all these. And the priests were so bad according to many of these individuals who got involved in the politics of the moment and the politics and the American era really start in 46 because in 46, Kerney comes in and what he does initially is he stops the caravans and he has the goods go behind him. During the time of war, trade is not cut off between the two countries. It's protected by the United States. Special orders. They've got a few people upset about it who said no, we got to stop it. We got to confiscate goods. One fellow got some weapons to Manuel Armico in time. He beat out a spire, beat out Kerney's army. And so he got the soldiers behind him. He supposedly met with Governor Armico that were rather through his emissary Santiago MacGoff and James MacGoff and who was a trader merchant as well as a secret agent. A fellow by the name of Tomaskel and

Salas who was also a Mexican merchant was supposed to attend that meeting as well. And he supposedly walked him with a bag and walked out without the bag the supposed bribe of $15,000. To whether it ever occurred or not is debatable. The historical records don't support that that position. When MacGoff and did file his report asking for compensation, there were no dollars mentioned for that amount. There were dollars mentioned for his arrest in the El Paso region. Be that as it may, the forces Mexican forces were poised to meet Kerney's army at Canyonsito, a very defensible position. The army was disbanded and New Mexico was conquered without a shot, the so-called bloodless conquest. To that point, many individuals have argued that New Mexicans were desirous of achieving American statehood, citizenship. They did not take any copy. Three minutes, okay. I'm rolling. We have more tape. Yeah, I figured that. But you know, so the bloodless conquest has been used to argue the point that the New Mexicans were

desirous of American conquest. The same argument had been made by Manuel Oliver Es, who was a U.S. Council, originally from Spain, to Santa Fe, and Charles Bant, as they tried to encourage the Texans to come in. Be that as it may, the Mexican army was defeated at Canyonsito and left. Kerney marched in. He demanded loyalty, arguing that the position east of the Rio Grande was part of the United States because of the Texas acquisition. Somewhere along the way, the position west of the Rio Grande was lost and that area was also taken. So the United States will claim that New Mexico is part of it in 46. Mexico will sign a treaty with the United States in 1848. In the span of those two years...