thumbnail of Whose Crisis Is This?; SD-Base
Hide -
<v narrator>Who's prosperous dairy farm has provided a comfortable upper in the. <v narrator>Mabel Olsen, whose fixed income from social security has severely curtailed <v narrator>her independence. <v narrator>The Rhodas, young and hopeful, starting out at a lower income, <v narrator>being forced to reassess their entire future. <v narrator>And the Tschidas who's comfortable upper income suburban lives may well be threatened <v narrator>by the turn of events and energy. <v Ron Tschida>I think we had a lot of lot of dreams and lot of things we wanted to accomplish. <v Ron Tschida>We wanted to raise a family, be able to afford to send them to good school <v Ron Tschida>in good living surroundings and lend ourselves <v Ron Tschida>a nice home. <v narrator>Thirty nine year old Ron Tschida has spent his entire working life in the retail <v narrator>food business. He has risen from produce stock boy at age 15
<v narrator>to vice president of produce operations for a major Twin Cities supermarket chain. <v narrator>Shari Tschida, Ron's wife of 18 years, has worked both as homemaker <v narrator>and medical secretary during that time, now employed part time at a <v narrator>cardiologist's office in St. Paul. <v narrator>Sherry has worked for private physicians and assisted in the infirmary at Stillwater <v narrator>State Prison. <v Shari Tschida>I have worked a large part of our life. <v Shari Tschida>Because I like to work. I love to work. I love to be with people. <v Shari Tschida>And I like the money, too. I can't say I don't. <v Shari Tschida>But. <v Shari Tschida>It's convenience. <v Shari Tschida>I don't maybe have some of the things that working women have now, like microwaves. <v Shari Tschida>And some of these. <v Shari Tschida>But that's by choice, because I hate to get away from the idea that <v Shari Tschida>you can't cook for your family.
<v narrator>Sherry Ron and there are three children, Amy, Tim and Lisa <v narrator>moved from St. Paul into the house they built seven years ago, looking forward to <v narrator>the open spaces of suburban Mahtomedi, Minnesota. <v Ron Tschida>My main objective for moving out here was so that we can have a home <v Ron Tschida>with areas and places for the kids to stay at home and have recreation <v Ron Tschida>with the pool and the woods in the backyard. <v Ron Tschida>Place to ride horses, whatever faith. <v Ron Tschida>Maybe they didn't have to go a long distance to a park or a public swimming <v Ron Tschida>pool or lake or whatever, have you. <v narrator>17 year old Ronald Timothy. <v narrator>Tim to his parents, Ron to his classmates and young friends. <v narrator>Rehearses for a performance at his graduation ceremony.
<v narrator>Tim's been graduated from Cretin High School, his father's alma mater. <v narrator>And like his father, he was working in the produce department as a stocker. <v Tim Tschida>When I was going to school with my car, it used to cost me like maybe <v Tim Tschida>10 fif- well, 15 or 20 dollars for the week for gas. <v Tim Tschida>Now it cost me almost thirty five dollars to go back and forth to work and <v Tim Tschida>to. To school. <v Tim Tschida>And that's that's just that's just during the work going to school and to going <v Tim Tschida>to work and to school. And then on the weekend, that's another tank of gas. <v Tim Tschida>It's less fun on the weekends. <v Ron Tschida>They've got 20 and 25 miles to get them here to St. Paul proper. <v Ron Tschida>And then wherever in St. Paul, you're going to be going to school, work, whatever the <v Ron Tschida>case may be. So we put on a good 50 to 60 <v Ron Tschida>mile, just going to and coming back home,
<v Ron Tschida>landing here, getting more to home activities because of energy crunch. <v Ron Tschida>We aren't likely to take off at the lake on a weekend. <v Ron Tschida>Stay home and enjoy what you have. <v Karen Rhodas>I don't think we ever do do is if we don't go up north, is like bowling. <v Karen Rhodas>Zile, I have my once a week bowling my one time out of the house <v Karen Rhodas>and then I can use in the springtime when we join a league together because he doesn't <v Karen Rhodas>like the long winter. <v narrator>Dennis and Karen Rhoda live in the city, but their hearts were and are <v narrator>elsewhere. <v Karen Rhodas>We were never going to live in the city. <v Karen Rhodas>We didn't even want to come back to the city, but we didn't have a choice. <v narrator>The Rhoda's were married soon after graduation from high school in Forest Lake, <v narrator>Minnesota. That was four years ago. <v narrator>Dennis is now 23. <v narrator>Karen is 22. <v narrator>They rented an apartment in suburban New Brighton. <v narrator>And while Karen was working at a factory.
<v narrator>Dennis was employed at Delux Check printers. <v Dennis Rhoda>I was working in St. Paul in the St. Paul plant <v Dennis Rhoda>with the hopes of someday getting out towards one of the Shoreview plants <v Dennis Rhoda>and then buying a house out that direction in a few years. <v Dennis Rhoda>And I got the opportunity to move out to that plant. <v Dennis Rhoda>So I took the move and. <v Dennis Rhoda>Well, we're not really too sure if we're going to be moving [Karen Rhoda: if we'll ever <v Dennis Rhoda>be able to move] for a while. <v narrator>Soon, the first of their two sons, Brian, was born. <v narrator>They bought a house in the north end of St. Paul. <v Karen Rhodas>And then we bought the house with just one income because we didn't want me to have <v Karen Rhodas>to go back to work. When I decided when the kids were old enough, I would go back to work <v Karen Rhodas>and then we could have more for us that way. <v Karen Rhodas>But now it's to the point where I don't have a choice. <v Karen Rhodas>I have to go back to work even just to keep the groceries and pay <v Karen Rhodas>the utility bills because of utility bills, what have really gone up the most in the two
<v Karen Rhodas>years that we have lived here. <v Karen Rhodas>That's their what? Gone up a good- [Dennis Rhoda: groceries] groceries, too. <v Karen Rhodas>But I don't see it nearly with groceries as I did the utility bills. <v narrator>Son Bradley was on his way last fall when the road heating bill arrived. <v narrator>Astonishing and angering Karen, who promptly sent the mayor's office a letter <v narrator>protesting the large increase over their previous months payment. <v Karen Rhodas>And it bothered me because all of a sudden winter hadn't even hit and I feel it already <v Karen Rhodas>doubled. And that scared me. <v Karen Rhodas>I thought. What? I didn't know what to expect for the rest of the winter. <v Karen Rhodas>We only we did keep the heat down by about 68. <v Karen Rhodas>And I would've liked to have gone lower to save on the heating bill. <v Karen Rhodas>But with the baby I really couldn't because the House was cold enough as it was all <v Karen Rhodas>winter. Everybody was complaining and we just we just watched TV with blankets <v Karen Rhodas>or sweaters and but it was cold. <v Mable Olson>I didn't heat the house as warm as I would have liked it. <v Mable Olson>And I use gas for cooking.
<v Mable Olson>So I didn't cook everything that I would have liked to like something <v Mable Olson>that takes a long time to cook or or roast. <v narrator>Mable Olson retired eight years ago at the age of 77. <v Mable Olson>I was working in the shop where they <v Mable Olson>make men's overcoats and top coats. <v Mable Olson>And I did the hand finishing on those coats. <v Mable Olson>The work I did made them more expensive because there was handwork. <v Mable Olson>Twenty one years I worked at that. <v narrator>Now, 85, Mabel Olsen is a survivor. <v narrator>Widowed more than 25 years ago. <v narrator>She climbs two flights of stairs to her small apartment not a block away <v narrator>from the duplex she was forced to sell because of rising utility costs, costs <v narrator>which her monthly Social Security check could not cover. <v narrator>All of this a far cry from the very early days. <v narrator>Mabel married in 1915.
<v Mable Olson>Oh boy. That was really wonderful. <v Mable Olson>And you know, well, my husband managed a hardware <v Mable Olson>store when we got married and he was in there <v Mable Olson>about. Probably close to four years, but he didn't <v Mable Olson>like the inside work. <v Mable Olson>We moved out on the farm and we lived <v Mable Olson>there. Well, I think four years, then I got sick. <v Mable Olson>And I had to go to the hospital. <v Mable Olson>So then we moved back to town and. <v Mable Olson>He bought the power plant. <v Mable Olson>And we lived upstairs above <v Mable Olson>the power plant. It was run by a stationary engine and <v Mable Olson>it supplied electricity for the town. <v narrator>The hardware store, the farm and their very own electric utility company were just the <v narrator>beginnings of their life together during World War Two.
<v narrator>Mabel's husband owned a petroleum distribution company and service station business. <v narrator>While Mabel revived a dying restaurant with her home cooking. <v narrator>Tragedy struck during the 50s, Mabel's husband died after a prolonged illness <v narrator>just three short years after moving into their Minneapolis home. <v Mable Olson>I thought when we retired, if our home was paid for. <v Mable Olson>With my Social Security, my husband's Social Security <v Mable Olson>and. <v Mable Olson>My pension that we would live. <v Mable Olson>Real good because our car was paid for. <v Mable Olson>Everything was paid for. Then when my husband got sick, of course, I took <v Mable Olson>took money and he passed away. <v Mable Olson>And there was just one income. <v Mable Olson>And then when I retired, I didn't get my pension. <v Mable Olson>So. It was a lot different than what I had planned. <v Mable Olson>But I did real well until
<v Mable Olson>the utilities started going up so high.
<v John Keller>I remember when we got electricity. <v John Keller>This was just before the war. <v John Keller>And our farm was at the end of the line. <v John Keller>And it stopped here until after the war. <v John Keller>And at that time. <v John Keller>My folks had a discussion about the rates and <v John Keller>it was going to be four dollars a month, whether you use that much electricity or not. <v John Keller>And. <v John Keller>I can remember, jeez you know, that's four dollars every month, <v John Keller>you know. <v John Keller>I don't think we ever did have a bill of four dollars. <v John Keller>It was always more than that. <v narrator>John and Dorraine Keller are the second generation owners of a good sized feed and <v narrator>dairy farm outside of Stillwater, Minnesota. <v narrator>In the rural town of May. <v narrator>John is chairman of the town board, a post he's held for 12 years. <v narrator>The killers have eight children, all but one of whom were reunited recently to celebrate
<v narrator>John and Dorraine's 30th wedding anniversary. <v narrator>The four oldest have moved on to careers elsewhere. <v narrator>Two have married. <v narrator>Rich, eldest of those still at home, works full time for his father. <v narrator>But both are uncertain whether Rich will take the mantle for the third generation. <v John Keller>My dad farmed here before I did. <v John Keller>But I can't see where any of my kids could afford to buy this thing. <v John Keller>It's just it would amount to so much money, you know, that I think I can't <v John Keller>see where they'd ever do anything but work and work hard for so <v John Keller>many years. <v narrator>Grandpa John Keller, nearly 90, now keeps an eye on things these days, <v narrator>but he remembers well how it was before electricity and modern machinery <v narrator>helped streamline and expand the farm operation to three times its original <v narrator>size. <v John Keller Sr.>Well, it was, you know, different ways of doing things. <v John Keller Sr.>You see, we started plowing this with a walking plow, you
<v John Keller Sr.>know, just one furrow and a team of horses on it. <v John Keller Sr.>And then later then we got to bottom plow, <v John Keller Sr.>you know, and then we've put five horses on that. <v John Keller Sr.>Five horses. Yeah. Three in front and two <v John Keller Sr.>behind see. That was all equalized, you know. <v John Keller Sr.>So each horse would be pulling the same amount you know. <v John Keller>They attribute a lot of hungry people who went back to that because there's no way <v John Keller>that, like just our family could go over anywhere <v John Keller>near the amount of acres that I can with tractor equipment, <v John Keller>comparing it to horse equipment. <v John Keller>For the Kellers, as both consumers and producers, energy consumption <v John Keller>is a two edged sword. <v John Keller>That's the sound of liquid gold you're getting there.
<v John Keller>I don't feel that very many farmers ever wasted fuel to begin with. <v John Keller>You know, you've got you've got to put a crop in and it's going to take that much fuel to <v John Keller>put it in. And, uh, it just, uh, <v John Keller>it just takes so much fuel to produce food <v John Keller>and, uh, cutting down. <v John Keller>I mean, of course, we we try and keep our trips across the field. <v John Keller>At a minimum. <v John Keller>We're talking about electricity, too. <v John Keller>Boy. Our electric bills are double what they used to be. <v John Keller>And before. <v John Keller>A long time ago, it was a lot lower, of course because we didn't have as much <v John Keller>electrical [Dorraine Keller: devices] yeah, [Dorraine Keller: <v John Keller>appliances]. <v Dorraine Keller>To me we have worked so hard. <v Dorraine Keller>Then why should we cut down on the things that we have worked so hard to get? <v Dorraine Keller>You see what I mean?
<v Speaker>[commercia]. <v Ross Bishop>Energy is one of the two or three factors that drives or shapes lifestyle. <v Ross Bishop>And as energy costs and availabilities change, we know that people have <v Ross Bishop>to alter some aspects of their lifestyle to adapt to that. <v Ross Bishop>We decide to have refrigerators. <v Ross Bishop>We decide to have air conditioning. We decide to have a certain size house that <v Ross Bishop>fundamentally decides that we will consume so much energy. <v Tim Tschida>Look at the people that have electric toothbrushes, electric, electric knives, <v Tim Tschida>electric can openers, electric shoe shiners, electric hair blowers. <v Tim Tschida>All that that can be done yourself. <v Dorraine Keller>If I had to, I would think I could cut it out and wash <v Dorraine Keller>my own dishes. <v John Keller>But yeah. But the time that you save, not washing dishes
<v John Keller>is productive time because you're helping me all the time. <v Dorraine Keller>That's right. <v John Keller>Jeez, we got eight kids. <v John Keller>That's a lot of dishes. And, uh, she's <v John Keller>always was raised in a great big garden, to feed us, you know, and all <v John Keller>the time that she's saved from washing dishes. <v Dorraine Keller>Those are two items. I don't think I could get along without the dishwasher <v Dorraine Keller>and the clothes dryer, though. Really. <v Mable Olson>I had a lot of appliances, but I didn't use any. <v Mable Olson>I used my washing machine. <v Mable Olson>And my lights. <v Mable Olson>And I watched television very little. <v Mable Olson>And I wouldn't have had a television set, except my son gave it to me for <v Mable Olson>a Christmas gift. <v Mable Olson>But I also had a coffee maker, a waffle maker, <v Mable Olson>an electric frying pan. <v Mable Olson>Mostly gifts, but I couldn't afford to use them because of the high price <v Mable Olson>of electricity.
<v Speaker>You can light a hundred watt bulb three hours for only one penny. <v Speaker>electrically. <v Speaker>Let's leave them on then, Roy. <v Speaker>What's wrong, Mildred? <v Speaker>I can't stand it dirty furnace, that awful stove, <v Speaker>noisy refrigerator. Cold water. <v Speaker>Say Mildred, You don't keep yourself very neat since we were married. <v Speaker>Come, mini Gasko help you. Gas heat clean. <v Speaker>Gas refrigerator quiet. <v Speaker>Gas heater always has hot water. <v Speaker>You cook first class with gas. <v Speaker>Live first class with gas. <v Speaker>Hey mildred. Why mildred. <v Speaker>Go first class with gas.
<v Ron Tschida>I think the society we live in the repetitious ads you hear, <v Ron Tschida>read, watch on TV. <v Ron Tschida>Put the ideas in your head, once the idea is there, you know that you've got a use for <v Ron Tschida>it. Then you go out and you think you should have it. <v Ron Tschida>And if you've got the money and you can afford it, you go out and you buy it. <v Ron Tschida>And you make use of it, they all consume energy to a certain extent. <v Ron Tschida>And a majority of them do. <v Ron Tschida>And they've been put to the public's grasp <v Ron Tschida>and they're able to acquire 'em. They go out and get them and bring them home and they <v Ron Tschida>start using energy with 'em. <v Ross Bishop>One of the biggest problems we face in dealing with particular residential conservation <v Ross Bishop>is the fact that nobody really buys electricity or natural gas. <v Ross Bishop>What you do is you get light, you get heat, you run your toothbrush. <v Ross Bishop>If you happen to have an electric toothbrush. <v Ross Bishop>You make conscious consumption decisions to use those things. <v Ross Bishop>And the electricity or the natural gas is almost incidental to that appliance.
<v Ross Bishop>So that the consumer never really thinks about the product that he is using, <v Ross Bishop>energy in this case. <v Mable Olson>Now, I never had more than one light on at the time, <v Mable Olson>and I used my television about three hours a day. <v Mable Olson>And that's all electricity I use except my electric clock. <v Ron Tschida>To reduce your own cost around here, we're very, very careful on your electricity, <v Ron Tschida>keeping no more lights on than you need in the wintertime, we keep <v Ron Tschida>the thermostat down as long as I feel we should have, it <v Ron Tschida>gets a little cold once in a while. <v Ron Tschida>That's alright. <v Karen Rhodas>I would still go lower as long as everybody's old enough where they can keep themselves <v Karen Rhodas>warm like put a sweater on, but then I can't expect that out of the baby. <v Dennis Rhoda>We just try to keep lights off-. <v Karen Rhodas>Lights off at night. <v Dennis Rhoda>And just try to- [Karen Rhoda: usually, basically there's no light on after 4 at night.] <v Dennis Rhoda>try not to waste anything <v Dorraine Keller>Well, everybody thinks they're doing their bit, I think.
<v Dorraine Keller>But. <v Dorraine Keller>And yet they aren't, you know. <v John Keller>Well, we keep hollering at everybody to shut the lights off, but once in a while they get <v John Keller>left on. <v Dorraine Keller>But I think those kind of little things. <v Dorraine Keller>Are minor, really. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>That's right. In fact, if a family really wanted to conserve energy turning off the <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>lights, though, which is very nice. And it makes us feel perhaps good about that. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>But basically, if people cannot do something about the efficiency of their house in terms <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>of heating and cooling and or can't do something about the amount they drive their <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>automobile, they basically will find changing their <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>cooking habits and turning off lights and not standing in front of the refrigerator <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>door, though that could be looked at as wasteful. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>It just doesn't really make a great deal of difference. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>And the utility bill, in comparison to using the car and using the or <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>setting the thermostat at seventy two or seventy five in the winter.
<v Ron Tschida>Like this winter when they had the radio announcements out and the TV announcement turned <v Ron Tschida>the thermostat down to 65 etc etc, get you back into <v Ron Tschida>these big shopping malls and they're warm as toast. <v Ron Tschida>And you walk into these apartment buildings and all these hallways, <v Ron Tschida>everything are heated and they're using much more heat, fuel, electricity. <v Ron Tschida>And I'm in my home. <v Sherri Tschida>And we're freezing. <v Dorraine Keller>I think it's wasted a lot of places and factories in. <v Dorraine Keller>Where they leave the lights on all night and all these kind of things. <v John Keller>No matter where you go into a live store or a restaurant, you got to wear a coat <v John Keller>again to keep from freezing to death on account of the air conditioning. <v John Keller>And to me, that's a waste. <v John Keller>Boy, there's a you know, people are sure awful darn soft <v John Keller>if they can't get a little warm or a little bit cold. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>With regard to the families who go in supermarkets and see white lights <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>and say, doggone it, why should I do anything? <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>You know, look at what they're wasting.
<v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>You know, that's again, that's diffusion of responsibility. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>Why should I? Hell, no one else is helping is really <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>what they're saying. Why should I make a sacrifice when no one else does? <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>It's not necessary. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>Or they can sometimes rationalize by saying, even if I did something, that wouldn't help <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>because all these others aren't doing anything yet. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>And that's a dilemma. A moral dilemma. <v Dorraine Keller>I think the poor people will suffer. <v Dorraine Keller>If the price goes up because I think they'll cut down, where are the people that have <v Dorraine Keller>money are still going to buy it. <v Speaker>I think that's where you're finding all a lot of your housewives going back to work to <v Speaker>help with the odds and ends that you need before they really didn't have <v Speaker>to take you didn't have your high expense on. <v Speaker>?inaudible?. <v Speaker>Electricity and gas and oil the whole works. <v Karen Rhodas>Yea you'd see at times, especially when the checkbook's running really low.
<v Karen Rhodas>And then you get this big bill in the mail from NSP and it <v Karen Rhodas>gets, it gets me mad. I know that. <v Dennis Rhoda>Yea, Sometimes you just like to say, to heck with it. And do what you want. <v Karen Rhodas>How do you pay 'em? <v Karen Rhodas>That's the way I feel sometimes. <v Speaker>I remember a couple of years ago, three or four, when we had a terrific winter storm <v Speaker>and people sat in their houses and froze to death, or almost froze <v Speaker>to death, at least. <v Speaker>They seem helpless. <v narrator>People are freezing to death in their homes right here in America. <v narrator>Thousands more are dying from pneumonia and other illnesses brought on by the cold. <v narrator>The poor face another long, cold winter. <v Ron Tschida>Something like that in our society shouldn't be happening. <v Ron Tschida>And. <v Ron Tschida>Once again, I don't know exactly who should step in and do it, but somebody's got to step
<v Ron Tschida>and do something about it. They do it for welfare programs. <v Ron Tschida>They do it for a lot of other programs. And I don't know why they couldn't do something <v Ron Tschida>on that basis to cover up such a need that somebody does have. <v Ron Tschida>And it definitely is there. <v John Keller>Went on a CPR call. <v John Keller>You know, just because they can't afford to buy it, if- if there's a enough <v John Keller>of it. <v John Keller>That would be a bad deal. <v Speaker>What do you what do you think about this? <v Speaker>Let's say that everybody puts in solar heat and all this stuff. <v Speaker>What happens to the power companies? <v Speaker>Well, the rates go up because you don't use as much. <v Speaker>You don't. Your rates go up. You don't use as much power. <v Speaker>Yeah. You know, they've got bills to pay anyway. <v Speaker>They're just like any other business. <v Speaker>So. <v Speaker>Now this has happened in wrote about this where people have conserved like crazy, <v Speaker>and they're on a different rate. <v Speaker>How about, there's thing guy in Demoring he has what- Remember that one in the paper he <v Speaker>uh, he was an older man, lived alone in a small house.
<v Speaker>I don't know, you know what the price of his utility bill was? <v Speaker>But it was fairly high and then the next year during the winter, he was spending his days <v Speaker>at a neighbor's, benevolent neighbors, helping them out. <v Speaker>So he wasn't home, had it all turned down and didn't use that much <v Speaker>anyway. He had this house all insulated and the price his bills went up <v Speaker>almost doubled for the next year. <v Speaker>He didn't even cook or eat there? <v Speaker>No. And it still doubled the next year. <v Speaker>So you solved the whole problem. <v Speaker>He had to rip the meter out. <v Speaker>Anyway. The gas heat and he used kerosene lamps for light. <v Speaker>But how unfair is that? Yeah, you do your best to conserve and then they charge <v Speaker>you double. <v Shari Tschida>Well, what about some of these people that are using I guess I don't really know that <v Shari Tschida>much about it, but these wood burning stoves <v Shari Tschida>or something in their living rooms. <v Shari Tschida>We've known several couples out here who have spent a lot of time out chopping trees <v Shari Tschida>and burning the wood.
<v John Keller>One of the things we did, we put in a woodstove and <v John Keller>it heats our living room and the kitchen and the and the new room <v John Keller>and the bedrooms are cool, but they're still nice for sleeping. <v Speaker>How did your stove help you? <v John Keller>Oh, man. <v John Keller>?inaudible? Oh sure. Yeah, this was a really fairly cheap winter. <v Speaker>Did it pay itself off this year, or how- how long-. <v John Keller>I would think so. It was around five hundred dollars, you know, <v John Keller>to install a thing. And <v John Keller>I would think people almost saved that that's- wouldn't you? <v Speaker>Did you know what it was in February. Did we tell you? <v Speaker>No. <v Dorraine Keller>Twenty nine dollars. <v Speaker>For your- for your heating bill? <v Speaker>Can I ask you what it had been in February? <v Dorraine Keller>About one hundred and twenty, maybe one hundred and twenty five in February. <v Speaker>Yeah. And fuel has gone up too. <v Speaker>That's ok for you guys now. But what about the people that have to buy with it? <v John Keller>Yeah. I wouldn't lucky with it. <v Dorraine Keller>Then I wouldn't lucky with it Yeah.
<v Speaker>Unless you've got access to wood then you certainly wouldn't. <v Dorraine Keller>Chris, I think you can burn wood a lot [?: cheaper], you know. <v Dorraine Keller>Yeah. You can buy wood and heat your home for cheaper. <v John Keller>These guys who s-. <v Speaker>Buy it for their fireplace you know? and that's really exquisite. <v Speaker>?inaudible? Fireplaces aren't efficient anyway. <v Speaker>But I mean, if you buy it like [?: mugs] fireplace people buy their wood. <v Speaker>That's expensive. <v Shari Tschida>I just may be America's. No. <v Shari Tschida>You know what? We can do that, too, because all this these trees belong to us. <v Shari Tschida>And then when they're gone, what are we going to do? <v Shari Tschida>I guess I was only adding it because they conserve energy type thing that came out. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>It's difficult to see the way we have built suburbia that there's any easy answer <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>to lowering energy, perhaps in weatherstripping, caulking, insulating. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>But the car that is really the connection. <v Speaker>Jim Johnson's a pretty normal guy ordinarily. <v Speaker>But lately he's been acting very strange. <v Speaker>Mind seems to be a million miles away. <v Speaker>Mrs. Johnson and Julie are getting worried about him. <v Speaker>Last night, for example. He turned down a piece of his favorite pie.
<v Speaker>The other day, he even kicked that car. He's always been so proud of and there's <v Speaker>always writing figures of some kind on the backs of envelopes. <v Speaker>No, this isn't like Jim at all. <v Speaker>There must be something wrong. <v Speaker>That magazine he was looking at. Maybe that's a clue. <v Speaker>Yes, that's the answer. <v Speaker>Surprised you didn't guess, aren't you? <v Speaker>Well, there's only one thing to do. <v Speaker>Only one cure. And Mrs. Johnson is wise enough to know it. <v Speaker>She knows the only medicine for this condition in the American male is this. <v Speaker>The gleam of new chrome, the sparkle of new paint and that <v Speaker>wonderful perfume that only comes from a new car. <v Speaker>Yes, it's a familiar scene, one that's played every day all over America.
<v Speaker>And we're all better off because of it. <v Speaker>You see that beautiful new car. <v Speaker>And the way Johnson feels about it are the symbols of a constant desire for something <v Speaker>newer and better. That is typical of all the Johnson families across the nation. <v Speaker>And the competitive drive to satisfy that desire to build a better mousetrap <v Speaker>is the force that has made the American marketplace the most abundant in the world. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>I think marketing has been very effective at convincing people that more is <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>is more happiness and that if they consume twice as much, they would have twice as much <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>happiness. And marketing people have not necessarily <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>cared at all about energy. What they really cared about was sell, sell, sell. <v Tim Tschida>We don't realize it, but every commercial goes right to you psychologically. <v Tim Tschida>It may you may not think that it's going towards you. <v Tim Tschida>But it is. It's there and it's in the back of your mind. <v Tim Tschida>And the minute you see that thing, you want it.
<v Speaker>[commercial] <v Shari Tschida>You're talking about dreams. <v Shari Tschida>You know, if all of us said what our dream car was. <v Shari Tschida>well I'd love the Lincoln Continental, but <v Shari Tschida>I have to be realistic. I can dream. <v Shari Tschida>Nobody can take my dreams away. <v Dennis Rhoda>Well, we have our ideas of the car, we would like, you know, and stuff. <v Dennis Rhoda>We felt forced to buy was smaller than we would like to have, and <v Dennis Rhoda>that with a smaller engine than we cared to have. <v Dennis Rhoda>Just, you know, because of the gas situation and the price of gas. <v Speaker>Without hesitation, he said. <v Speaker>Fill it up. <v Speaker>And from that moment on, an indivisible bond was formed <v Speaker>between the American motorist and this great super premium gasoline.
<v Speaker>Try Chevron Supreme, a super octane fuel <v Speaker>for today's horsepower. <v Speaker>You know, this stuff is great. They ought to advertise it. <v Harry Truman>We are fast becoming a have not nation <v Harry Truman>with respect to many important minerals. <v Harry Truman>We are faced with the danger of a shortage of petroleum products. <v Harry Truman>The United States is now using more oil each day <v Harry Truman>than the entire world used before the war. <v Harry Truman>Shortages of fuel oil have already appeared in parts of the Midwest. <v Jimmy Carter>Gasoline consumption represents half of our total oil usage. <v Jimmy Carter>We simply must save gasoline. <v Jimmy Carter>And I believe that the American people can meet this challenge. <v Jimmy Carter>It's a matter of patriotism and a matter of commitment. <v Dorraine Keller>I don't think I can cut down anymore.
<v Dorraine Keller>Really, I don't. Because. <v John Keller>You don't go very much. <v Dorraine Keller>I just don't go that often to town, you know. <v John Keller>Well, we certainly try and keep the trips to a minimum. <v John Keller>We're- I don't think we didn't used to do that so much, you know. <v John Keller>You try and get more things done at the same time. <v John Keller>Dorraine gets her hair fixed or something, she also buys groceries the same day. <v Karen Rhodas>Yeah. We should give ourselves one tank of gas a week and then we do any more <v Karen Rhodas>running at all. Depends if we have any extra money. <v Karen Rhodas>But usually, one tank of gas, takes care of his working and then to store and stuff. <v Jimmy Carter>I ask each of you to take an important action on behalf <v Jimmy Carter>of our nation. <v Jimmy Carter>I ask you to drive 15 miles a week fewer <v Jimmy Carter>than you do now. <v Jimmy Carter>One way to do this is not to drive your own car to work every day <v Jimmy Carter>at least once a week. Take the bus, go by a carpool,
<v Jimmy Carter>or if you were close enough to home, walk. <v Ron Tschida>We have three people to travel into St. Paul area to work or school, <v Ron Tschida>and we have three cars going in that direction. <v Ron Tschida>A lot of times will double up if our schedules can possibly warrant it so that we <v Ron Tschida>get a couple of people driving in one car at least help save us some gasoline cost. <v Sherri Tschida>And I think another thing, even out here, some of us women have called each other and <v Sherri Tschida>said, are you going in? <v Sherri Tschida>Why don't we go together, you know, which is kind of nice. <v Sherri Tschida>Because it kind of goes back to the community thing where you pull together, you know. <v John Keller>Carpooling is something that we can't do because nobody <v John Keller>else is going the same place we are. <v John Keller>When you live in a country, you just have to figure you're gonna drive. <v John Keller>Quite often with kids and schools and stuff, except <v John Keller>that there's so many things that you just have to get. <v John Keller>Machinery parts and stuff like that.
<v John Keller>You just have to go get them. <v John Keller>And about half of our driving is chasing after <v John Keller>parts and feed and stuff. <v Dave>Now, what are you doing differently now than you did a year ago when there was no <v Dave>real big deal about this? <v John Keller>We were talking about this the other day Dave, and I don't think as far <v John Keller>as farming in a business, you <v John Keller>we never did waste any fuel. <v John Keller>I don't believe we wasted fuel. <v Dave>Well, what you're saying is that everything <v Dave>that that you've ever had to do was essential. <v Dave>You really get along without any less fuel. <v John Keller>The only thing you do is cut down and national production. <v John Keller>You know, I don't think the nation can afford to have us all cutting down even <v John Keller>a small percentage. <v John Keller>Of a crop here and in the whole country <v John Keller>would affect our our national being a lot.
<v Jimmy Carter>This is a painful step. <v Jimmy Carter>And I'll give it to you straight. <v Jimmy Carter>Each of us will have to use less oil. <v Jimmy Carter>And pay more for it. <v Karen Rhodas>Well, I think we're really going to get sold. Because we'd have to have two cars going. <v Karen Rhodas>Because we'll be working opposite shifts of each other. <v Karen Rhodas>So we have to have two cars and to keep gas in the two cars and maintain the upkeep. <v Karen Rhodas>So sometimes I wonder if it's even worth my while going back to work without knowing how <v Karen Rhodas>much money I'm going to be putting out for this other stuff. <v Dennis Rhoda>I would think it would hurt people, the restaurants and resorts <v Dennis Rhoda>and stuff, and eventually going to be taking its toll on everybody. <v John Keller>She's one of my sons is is in a business where tourism <v John Keller>is is the whole business. <v Dorraine Keller>He's dependent on it. <v John Keller>Yeah. <v Dorraine Keller>What will happen Dave, know if you can't get gas? <v Dave Keller>Well, our whole business depends on fuel. If we don't have any gas we don't have any <v Dave Keller>business. <v Speaker>If I want airplane, how much would that cost?
<v Speaker>Oh. Airplane gas. Well they... <v Speaker>We got a letter from the oil company we deal with and they. <v Speaker>They said. They said, [inaudible]. <v Dave Keller>No... <v Dave Keller>We got a letter from them and they were gonna give us 90 percent of our last year's <v Dave Keller>quantity. And last year was <v Dave Keller>about the fourth year that we had. <v Speaker>Well, good effective. <v Dave Keller>Yeah. But then we, the next week we got another letter that said that we <v Dave Keller>gonna get 80 percent. [?: Oh. really?] So. <v Dave Keller>We're not sure just what we're going to do yet. <v Speaker>Hey, you know, what I was just thinking, if these oil companies are so short on oil. <v Speaker>Why is it like a day when you were at May Kaito a couple of years and those guys <v Speaker>developed that Volkswagen that ran, you know, like two 100 miles to the gallon <v Speaker>of gas and all of a sudden, you know, they don't start making them, some oil company buys <v Speaker>up the deal on it and the idea that they don't ?inaudible?.
<v Speaker>Yeah, well, sure right there. <v Speaker>So it's a manufactured deal right there. <v Speaker>You can tell. [?: it's a whole monopoly] right [?: you know?] <v Speaker>It took her half a Volkswagen motor. wasn't it? <v Dave Keller>Yeah, they got. I don't know. They got 50 miles to a gallon in that. <v Dave Keller>But, you know, it's. I think, well, <v Dave Keller>if they had cars that have gotten 100 miles to the gallon, but, you know, <v Dave Keller>the there are so many people in big business that are against them that <v Dave Keller>it's hard to make anything like that work. <v John Keller>As far as I'm concerned if that is really true. <v John Keller>And that's really a traitor's act towards our country. <v John Keller>If we're running out of gas and we've got something that could save [?: well that's the <v John Keller>whole thing, aren't we selling in other countries. You know, gas can be- in barrels of <v John Keller>oil that we use i our country?] sure the Alaskan pipeline oil-. <v Speaker>That is, that these large corporations, they're not American run corporations, <v Speaker>they're nationwide. They're [?: in worldwide] corporations
<v Speaker>are playing with worldwide monopolies, not just the US. <v Speaker>We're just another another [?: trust.] We're just more consumers <v Speaker>to them. We're not- ?inaudible? <v Speaker>There's no patriotism between them and us. <v Speaker>[?: Not it's where they make the money] it's a question of economics with them. <v Ron Tschida>Myself, I think they'll probably get this thing settled within the next six months or so. <v Ron Tschida>You probably end up with higher, higher gas prices, but <v Ron Tschida>I don't think we'll see the. <v Ron Tschida>Five dollar limit in the ten gallon limit. <v Ron Tschida>Stuff like that. <v Ron Tschida>So somebody can afford to take a trip and pay for the gasoline it'll be there. <v Ross Bishop>It's not a question of supply. <v Ross Bishop>It's a question of what's it gonna cost us to get it. <v Ross Bishop>And I think that's the fundamental misunderstanding on the part of the public regarding <v Ross Bishop>the energy crisis. There's been a lot of hype. There has been a lot of shortage talk. <v Ross Bishop>I think that government people, some business people have used it to <v Ross Bishop>speak to individual needs and ends rather than the general societal interests.
<v Dr. William Duffy>So the oil companies, I think, will be viewed more and more as, you know, as <v Dr. William Duffy>in a very suspicious kind of way. <v Dr. William Duffy>I think the government, however, is the one that produces the biggest props for people <v Dr. William Duffy>because. There's your feeling tremendous feeling <v Dr. William Duffy>of being ineffectual. What can you do to penetrate that system and get it to work the <v Dr. William Duffy>way people say it's supposed to work for you? <v Ron Tschida>Bases of our government were under the understanding that they're supposed to prevent a <v Ron Tschida>lot of monopoly of business. <v Ron Tschida>And up to this point, the way the oil companies are going, I would say that Monopoly is <v Ron Tschida>getting out of hand because they're getting control of an awful lot of industries and <v Ron Tschida>taking the toll of an awful lot of people's lives. <v Dennis Rhoda>I hate to see governments stepping in on everything and stuff <v Dennis Rhoda>but if the price gets up too high or something's got to happen because. <v Dennis Rhoda>You can't- can't afford to buy the gas to go go to work, and you can have no money <v Dennis Rhoda>[Karen Rhoda: to live.] Coming in on. Yeah.
<v Ron Tschida>Important as those things are to everybody's daily living. <v Ron Tschida>So we're going to have to get together and invent, discover, <v Ron Tschida>come up with an answer. <v Ron Tschida>That can be as dangerous, I think, to the American people as <v Ron Tschida>some of our diseases are right now. <v Speaker>When I get older, I think there will be as much fuel and there won't be as many <v Speaker>conveniences like there was now. <v Speaker>How do you know? <v Speaker>You kinda depend on people to- oh <v Speaker>I don't know, people invent new ways so that maybe it won't affect you when you get <v Speaker>older, do you just think, well, I don't worry about it because they thought of something <v Speaker>later. Or do you think that later, maybe you really won't have anything? <v Speaker>Well-. <v Speaker>Maybe you won't be able to drive a car. <v Speaker>Maybe you will have to ride your bike all the time. <v Speaker>And by then they will have thought of something new. <v Speaker>Yea, I think they'll think of something.
<v Speaker>Well, Chances are they will, you know really [?: naturally financially in our society] <v Speaker>this uh... <v Speaker>It's always happened in my past, you know. <v Dennis Rhoda>Since they've come up with um. <v Dennis Rhoda>Stuff's been invented. <v Dennis Rhoda>like light bulb and everything's-. <v Dennis Rhoda>I would think something would come along and help. <v Dennis Rhoda>Seems like the American way. <v Dennis Rhoda>Get us out of jams, we've got out of jams before. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>That's not the American way. The American way is that someone comes up with a great idea. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>Sometimes it's a scientific invention and then creates a demand for it. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>Light bulbs were not invented because it was a great crisis in <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>illumine night. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>Light bulbs were the- very inventive mind. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>And then an awful lot of thought and creativity and salesmanship <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>went into making a market for light bulbs. <v Speaker>And that's the real problem. That's the real crux of it, because I <v Speaker>think people are hoping, well, something will be taken care of in the very near future
<v Speaker>because look at everything that has happened already. <v Speaker>The major advances in science and technology and so on, so that somebody will take care <v Speaker>of it. We won't have to worry ten years from now. <v Speaker>But let's just worry about getting enough fuel today. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>In some ways, I get a little concerned because I, I believe that there's too <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>much stock placed in that there are readily available <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>alternatives to fossil fuels. And so we'll wait just a few years. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>We can ride this through and then it's all gonna turn out all right. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>Because after all, if you put somebody on the moon. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>Can't you really get all this going again? <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>And we can continue with our way of life. <v Sherri Tschida>I don't think they will come up with something. <v Sherri Tschida>I've almost come to the conclusion I think it's up to the time that the people gathered <v Sherri Tschida>together and said, hey, what are we going to do about <v Sherri Tschida>our problem? Because obviously, no one else cares. <v Karen Rhodas>We're going to have to start voicing our opinions. <v Karen Rhodas>We can't just sit in your house and complain. I think you have to get out, it's the only <v Karen Rhodas>way you're going to be heard. <v Karen Rhodas>I think if enough people get out sooner or later, something's gonna have to be done.
<v Anne Keller>I think that that's where we can have some some backing in that and not <v Anne Keller>let these issues die. That's right. <v Anne Keller>You know, because, like, we - senators just as well as the next guy. <v Speaker>Yeah, are you sure that they're gonna read the letters? <v Speaker>Nobody does. you know. We're-. <v Anne Keller>That's just what I mean. That there is things to do. <v Anne Keller>But does anybody ever do 'em? <v Speaker>Well, maybe when the lights all go out. <v Anne Keller>Well, that's what I mean. <v Speaker>As people start to experience more and more problems <v Speaker>that are really having a dramatic effect on their lives. <v Speaker>I think they'll be joined. Those groups will be joined together so that they will try <v Speaker>to do something hopefully positive to to change priorities <v Speaker>and to decrease the impact of the of the energy problems. <v Anne Keller>But don't you think that in a way that is good in a way, just like I was saying before, <v Anne Keller>if there's a crisis now, even if there's not if it's through the media, if it's if <v Anne Keller>we're all getting, you know, propaganda to death. <v Anne Keller>Eventually things are going to have to be done because all the oil and the gas is going
<v Anne Keller>to be gone and we're going to have to go to nuclear power or some solar <v Anne Keller>energy or something like that. <v Anne Keller>And as long as we have a scare now, maybe this will scare a bunch of people. <v Anne Keller>[?: Did it ?inaudible??] It's made me think a lot more about it. <v Anne Keller>More a lot more about conserving energy and everything. <v Anne Keller>And I think that before- before the first the crisis. <v Anne Keller>[?: Think or do?] <v Dave Keller>What do you do now? [?: Think about it. But what do we do?] That you didn't before the <v Dave Keller>energy crisis? <v Anne Keller>I think that it's affected my life because now I have to pay for rent. <v Anne Keller>I have to pay for utilities. <v Dave Keller>I don't think it's affected me at all. <v Dave Keller>I mean, no matter how much gas costs, I'm going to pay for it because I need it <v Dave Keller>and uh [?: you don't feel you waste any.] I don't feel I. <v Dave Keller>Well, I - there ways to say it, but <v Dave Keller>I just don't feel that. <v Dave Keller>I think I need I need my independence as a business man. <v Dave Keller>More than more than I.
<v Dave Keller>I need to stop using fuel. <v Ross Bishop>I don't think attitudes regarding the energy crisis make a significant difference <v Ross Bishop>regarding individual residential consumption. <v Ross Bishop>I think fundamentally it's an economic question how much my energy bills <v Ross Bishop>are going to affect what I do and what I can and can't do. <v Ross Bishop>I think that's where the bottom line is. <v Lisa Tschida>I look ahead and I think it's going to be harder because if it's like it is now, it's <v Lisa Tschida>going to be really bad when I do get older and decide to go on my <v Lisa Tschida>own and do what I want to do. <v Lisa Tschida>We have a lot of stuff that. <v Lisa Tschida>We have that we wouldn't really need and I think it'd be hard to give it all up <v Lisa Tschida>because we enjoy it all. <v Lisa Tschida>And not to have it would probably be, I don't know, kind of depressing. <v Karen Rhodas>It bothers me because I think I should be able to go when I want to go, if we want to get <v Karen Rhodas>out of the house, go someplace, we should be able to. <v Karen Rhodas>But you can't we we don't have the money. <v Karen Rhodas>We have to stay home. <v Ron Tschida>I think there's an awful lot of conflicts. I think that's why the problem exists, that
<v Ron Tschida>people do not know exactly what to think. <v Ron Tschida>Is it a factor? Isn't it a fact? Is somebody putting the wool over your eyes or anything? <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>To the extent that we continue to have this cyclic <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>description of what's happening with the energy in this country. <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>It's abundant for a few months that it's in short supply for a few months, then abundant <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>again. We are going to have a difficult time getting most people to take <v Dr. Maurice Mittelmark>it seriously. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>They've worked very hard climbing up that ladder. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>And now someone's going to say when they've got their foot on the third rung that the <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>fourth rung is not there is really a dirty trick and they're kicking and fighting <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>and they're blaming and that blaming behavior. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>They'll blame anybody. The present United States, they'll blame the oil companies. <v Dr. M. Janice Hogan>They'll blame the grocery store. Somebody's got to really be at fault. <v Shari Tschida>Well, I mean, who is supposed to step in? <v Shari Tschida>I myself don't know. I'd like to know as a democracy. <v Shari Tschida>I would like to know me, the people who's going to help me, that people when
<v Shari Tschida>I've given, you know, my tax and I've done my fair share. <v Shari Tschida>I've worked a lot of the time we've been married. <v Shari Tschida>And I'd like to know who's going to protect me now. <v Speaker>Who will indeed protect al? <v Speaker>A fair question in the welter of confusion. <v Speaker>But it runs deeper. <v Speaker>The frustrations are beyond merely sorting out the mix of commercial and public policy <v Speaker>messages. They go to the very heart of our existence, of the lifestyles <v Speaker>we have sought, perhaps attained and which now may be seriously threatened. <v Speaker>The economic realities are upon us, and we have learned to expect answers and solutions <v Speaker>from our scientists and political leaders. <v Speaker>Where are they? Can we wait for them as energy costs take their toll in our pocketbooks? <v Speaker>And what of our dreams? <v Karen Rhodas>I told myself after I got laid off that I would never go back to a factory again.
<v Karen Rhodas>I'm going to get an education, I'm going to learn a trade. <v Karen Rhodas>But then now I have to go back to factory. <v Karen Rhodas>That's where the money is, that's how everything has changed for us. <v Karen Rhodas>Everything that we had wanted. It is changing. <v Ron Tschida>And it's just leaves a big question in your mind, you know, are you going to be able to <v Ron Tschida>make use of these things that you worked all your life to acquire? <v Ron Tschida>And now that you've acquired them, is somebody going <v Ron Tschida>to stop you from enjoying. <v John Keller>Yeah, we've had a real good life as far as. <v John Keller>It's reaching goals. <v John Keller>We've, uh. Prospered. <v John Keller>No way I want to go back. <v John Keller>It's just too nice this way. <v Mable Olson>Oh, boy. When I retired, I was going to be sitting on top of the world. <v Mable Olson>And my children, we're going to have education. <v Mable Olson>And when we retired, we would be on Easy Street.
Whose Crisis Is This?
Producing Organization
KTCA-TV (Television station : Saint Paul, Minn.)
Contributing Organization
Twin Cities Public Television (St. Paul, Minnesota)
The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia (Athens, Georgia)
If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip/77-78gf2v1c).
Episode Description
No description available
Public Affairs
Media type
Moving Image
Embed Code
Copy and paste this HTML to include AAPB content on your blog or webpage.
Producing Organization: KTCA-TV (Television station : Saint Paul, Minn.)
AAPB Contributor Holdings
Twin Cities Public Television (KTCA-TV)
Identifier: C-3035 (tpt Protrack Database)
Format: U-matic
Generation: Dub
Duration: 00:57:30?
The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia
Identifier: 79090dct-arch (Peabody Object Identifier)
Format: U-matic
Duration: 01:00:00
If you have a copy of this asset and would like us to add it to our catalog, please contact us.
Chicago: “Whose Crisis Is This?; SD-Base,” Twin Cities Public Television, The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed June 28, 2022,
MLA: “Whose Crisis Is This?; SD-Base.” Twin Cities Public Television, The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. June 28, 2022. <>.
APA: Whose Crisis Is This?; SD-Base. Boston, MA: Twin Cities Public Television, The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from