People And Causes; 639; Minnesota Civil Liberties Union/Minnesota Gay and Lesbian Assistance; SD-Base

When people in Number Six thirty nine Minnesota gay lesbian legal assistance is taped on the fourth I guess it's going to be aired 8:51 14 and 15. Eighty three. Oh pinions expressed on people and causes are not necessarily those of Twin Cities public television programs are not intended to be balanced presentations but only to provide broadcast time to nonprofit groups and issues. Hello I'm Denise Johnson welcome to PEOPLE IN causes. The United States Constitution was

designed to ensure liberty and justice for all lofty and admirable goals. Yet there are clearly flaws in our judicial and governmental systems that allow And sometimes sometimes support discrimination. Take the case of gays and lesbians antiquated laws on sodomy and fornication are used selectively against them and not against the heterosexual population. Ordinances which prohibit housing and employment discrimination against gays and lesbians have been repealed by the voters in St. Paul and other major cities and the current concern about AIDS. A fatal illness that is more prevalent among gay men is fanning the flames of further unjust restrictions against them. For these reasons and others that will discuss today both the Minnesota Civil Liberties Union and Minnesota gay and lesbian legal assistance or min gotta concern themselves with equal protection under the law for gays and lesbians. These organizations provide legal assistance and are trying to change statutory law. They also work to build public support of an issue that is often viewed as moral rather than legal. With me today from our Linda attorney and associate executive director of the Minnesota Civil Liberties Union

any Silverberg MCO use legal counsel. And Dan Hanson board member of an ACLU and president of Minn.. Hello. Hi it's nice to have all your welcome. First of all this organization is concerned about legal issues. Let's talk a bit about the the legality or illegality of homosexuality itself. Are there any laws on the books that that specifically concern themselves with with homosexuality. There are no laws that make it illegal to be a homosexual person. But there are certain kinds of activities that some homosexual people engage in that are made criminal. And in Minnesota for example there are a number of laws including the sodomy criminal laws. That. Make criminal activity that many homosexual people engage in. And I was allowed to define sodomy what are we talking about. Sodomy means either intercourse or sex. And frankly the law doesn't specifically address itself to homosexuals although it has been

you selectively enforced against them. It also includes activity that married heterosexuals engage in and other heterosexual people engage in. But it is not enforced against her of certain people is that right what are some examples of give me some instances when I say that when homosexual people would be arrested based on the sodomy law or given a fine or whatever and a heterosexual person or persons would not OK to our knowledge to really have been no sodomy arrests in this state against straight people or heterosexuals. But however there have been some in Minnesota against arrests made and charges made for sodomy violations against a gay man. And basically these things seem to be enforced very selectively. In bad laws or bookstores or. Possibly some private secluded parks or something like that where the police are in there.

Working the area attempting to arrest make make their own wrists and contact has been made between the men and the police. It's not charge of sodomy they're frequently charged with. City ordinances and involving indecent conduct. Has that been your experience you've been involved in any of those cases where someone has been charged with indecent conduct. Oh sure yes. The most famous case that that the MCO you was involved in concerned arrests of of over 100 man at the locker room bathhouse in Minneapolis and although these men were adults in a in a private club that in fact. Checked. The. ID before the men came in they had to make sure they were of age. The police came in sort of as undercover agents and arrested man for sodomy and indecent conduct and we were involved. In fighting those cases and arguing that the laws that they were prosecuted under were

unconstitutional. Now are there. Are there clubs private clubs as you mention where heterosexuals go where the same kinds of activities occur we're talking about sexual activities in a building somewhere correct. When the police come down on them as well and the same well they're in this city the city of Minneapolis there have been prosecutions for prostitution for example with a song like massage parlors and some sound it's obviously not all massage parlors and all sounds have that kind of activity going on. But with heterosexuals it tends to be for things like prostitution. I don't know of any cases involving arrests of heterosexuals for for something like fornication or sodomy. So it's a different kind of thing it is. It is not equally enforced. Now these are state statutes we're talking about. And some city ordinance and some of them are state and some city sodomy state law.

What kind of efforts have been made to change those laws. Well the MCO you certainly would like to change the sodomy law for example. One problem that we have though is that it is devastating to homosexuals to be arrested for sodomy. It's a very serious crime under our statutes it could involve a thousand dollar fine and a year in prison if you're convicted. Frequently these people have families they have jobs that are very important to them they are professional people sometimes. And to fight the law they would have to become very public about their sexual orientation and it would cause more problems to them then than it might to try and resolve it without that kind of fanfare. So that while the MCO you would like very much to challenge this law we've had a problem finding anybody who is willing to go through all the pain that they would have to endure in order to challenge the law specifically on the sodomy. The state statute has what about some of the local or the local ordinances also need probably to be challenged because I can think in Minneapolis where the indecent conduct ordinance

is specifically enforced rigorously. The laws is ill defined and it's vague and it's overbroad and so basically at the discretion of the officer. It is it is there seen in cases that I know about. It seems as though at least the people who have been arrested by the police have claimed that they were in fact entrapped. And that the police officer made the moves and made the contact and then the rest of them and so it's. But at the same time it's a 25 or a hundred dollar fine and the. The burden of going forth with the trial and the appeal and all this will be far more expensive to the victim than than pleading guilty. Well keeping in mind then the ordinance as it were that we're talking about I mentioned earlier that St. Paul had an ordinance to protect gay and lesbian people and that they repeal that exactly what happened when that occurred in St. Paul how did that become an issue. Well in St. Paul there is a provision in the city ordinances for initiative and referendum which means that ordinances. From the city can be referred to a vote of the people. For

example many apples does not have that provision. And in St. Paul the city council passed the sexual preference inclusion of the city Human Rights Amendment Act and it was on the books for a number of years and then suddenly a small group of religious. People from one particular church started with a referral effort and the city. Saint Paul the people voted about 2 to 1 to remove the protection of sexual preference in the Human Rights Act from the ordinances of language. In your view why did that occur. Well most of people who voted on that issue are very well informed. About what it involved or why did did that happen. Well first of all there's a good one third of the people that supported the ordinance but I think that the lot of people were not informed. They were looking at as a moral issue from their own perspective. And I also think that it isn't just gay and lesbians that they were voting against But I think that any minority group facing the vote of a majority in the election will come out

a loser. That's a sad commentary on our society that I think blacks or Chicago's or even possibly women even though there are an actual majority would face a tough time in the ballot box. What do other cities in Minnesota for example look like with regard to these kinds of ordinances are there many cities that that have. A human rights ordinance on the books for example that that includes gay and lesbian people. Well the next largest metropolitan area is Duluth and a couple of years ago there was an effort to get Duluth to pass an ordinance prohibiting discrimination against gays and lesbians. And I was up there. Testifying before the city council the night they voted. And in a close vote. It lost. It did not. It was not passed. And I can remember from from that evening of testimony that there were a lot of people from the community who came forward and talked about their fears and all the myths about you know what homosexual people are like you know that it's contagious that it's going to harm children. All of those things came out and it's very difficult

to debate. With people who play on fear and who continue to bring out the myths not not the facts about homosexuality. And you know there's a lot of education that we have to do. And I think it's it's going on now Marshall you say is one city that has. Adopted an ordinance that prohibits discrimination but really there are very few very few while the that seem to be kind of a trend say Paul as I recall had the distinction of being the second in the nation after that business in Dade County Florida that there were several people who were very active and involved in that. Were there many other cities after that to your knowledge that also repealed the ordinances that we're aware of. But that seems to have died on M.. And also at the same time I haven't seen a lot of activity where other cities or counties or states have in fact passed organises or statutes of Separ Wisconsin a year ago passed an amendment to their state human rights activists and I was constant is the only state in the country that has that hasn't made a big

difference. Looking at the St. Paul situation for example I. Have renters and landlords employers that sort of seized upon that opportunity to discriminate against gay and lesbian people has there been any evidence of that. Well it's hard it's hard to say but I would I would guess that some people who feel that they might be discriminated against would choose to live in Minneapolis because they know that they have recourse then to redress when the wrongs that are committed against them. It's very difficult to say because we can only react to the complaints that we get so we only hear about some of the people who are discriminated against but you think press it has discouraged people from Britain from living and working there since and they don't feel that the community is very supportive as a result of that. There would be some sense of that but at the same time of the we should remember that Minneapolis is the one that's actively and forcing the for example the indecent conduct laws and ordinances and therefore making the rest of these. And that has happened as much or at all and none has been done. This will come about that the organization that you are involved in.

Exactly what is Miguel what kind of relationship does it have to be. The Civil Liberties Union. I'm on the board of directors for the civil division and all and Linda you are too. And the emus legal counsel but the organization of men is not affiliated all with with the MCU other than we both have a common interest in human rights for all people and civil rights. But. Other than that we're not a connected organization and Gallo is basically a referral agency at this time to refer people to gay and lesbian sensitive attorneys when they might have a legal problem. And is that a problem due to gay or lesbian people. Fine if you're talking about a legal problem that specifically relates to being being gay or lesbian correct that's great or so than any other kind of legal problem is that is sad difficult for gay and lesbian people to find an attorney who represented all I mean is is that. Well I think it's difficult enough in the urban areas to actually find somebody to represent you if you are not very socially active in the gay

community. But for example somebody living in a rural area might have a very difficult time finding an attorney. I think that attorneys in rural areas tend to prefer to stay out of controversial situations. And for a rural person looking for a sensitive attorney in Minneapolis it might be extremely difficult for them to find somebody unless they have a connection. And I think gala provides that connection for these people. Now you talk about the sort of feeling of being very conservative. Some of the attorneys you know really or is it also true of of legislators sort of coming back to the issue of changing these laws is that is that true of them as well as a part of the reason why the laws are made on the books. I think I think. I mean I think it is because I read a recent survey where only 24 percent of the people. I thought that they had ever known or had ever met a homosexual person. Now if in a rural area a legislator doesn't have any

open men or women who are gay or lesbian identified you may think there are no none of his constituents who are concerned about for example the repeal of the sodomy law or the inclusion of sexual preference in the State Human Rights Act. And when the facts are that one out of ten people are generally thought to be homosexual everybody has constituents every one of those legislators and they should be concerned about those people are they are they very worried about what the other nine even knowing that what the other 90 percent of their constituents will will will say. Yeah that has been the problem in Minnesota for example lobbying to get sexual preference included in our anti discrimination law. That that many of the legislators even though they may personally say privately to you I really agree with this. I think it's right. I don't think that these people they're human beings they should not be discriminated against. But I'm afraid that if I take that stand I'm going to be defeated I'm afraid my constituents won't support me on this

position. But what the the tactic that's being used now and I think very successfully in the last legislative session. It certainly worked in Wisconsin is to have a more of a grassroots movement to cut getting people from each of the legislative districts to work together with churches. This was done here in Minnesota the session and really began to show the representatives and in the legislature that there is a lot of grassroots support for this and it's going to take a while but it was it was certainly. A lot more support this year for it than there had been in previous years. And we're not going to stop you know we'll get it passed if it's passed in Wisconsin last year there's no reason why we can't do it in Minnesota. So there have been numerous efforts made yet over a period of a long. Oh it's been five years it's prolonging the owner. And you know and each time you feel as if you get a little closer there's a there's a correct you know a little bit more.

But you fear dies hard. You know in the prejudice of the Myths die hard and. It takes a lot of educating. To to to turn around some of those votes. Do you think that at that at the grassroots level here. That that is a problem that they are talking about fear and prejudice and that kind of thing isn't that where that is sort of at the grassroots level. I think it's a real minority of people though who are making a lot of the noise and causing the fear among legislators that's a it's a I think it's a relatively small group of people who are very vocal about being anti gay and anti lesbian and writing to their legislators. So I think what has to be done is we have to combat that by showing yes there are people out there who feel the other way. So I don't know. I haven't taken a poll. And Phil I don't know how or how the percentages break down. And after all gay men and lesbians pay taxes contribute to civic and cultural affairs were active in the community were active in sports and sporting and social events. I mean we contribute to society we're paying for schools and roads and all

these other things and yet we're not being given really what are you going to. It's you know well how did MCI you get involved in some of these issues there's a there's sort of a relationship between your groceries you believe in some of the same things. What how did how did you become involved in this issue. Well years ago we were involved in some of the earliest cases including employment discrimination. More recently the two cases we took to federal court. Challenging the city of Minneapolis is refusal to allow the Gay Pride committee to demonstrate on Hennepin Avenue. I frequently will get referrals from an Gayla advising us about some problem or someone who needs representation and if it involves a constitutional issue then we can provide that assistance. I can tell you more about some recent cases but I think as an organization the MCO you has has probably been working on these issues for the longest period of time.

Among legal groups what are some of the current cases we're currently involved in two different cases. One involves the Southwest High School and their school newspaper The Gay Pride Committee attempted to buy an ad in the high school newspaper and the school board decided that no they could not place that ad. The MCO you was advised of the situation by a couple of the editors of the school paper and they were very concerned about the censorship as they had about I mean what they had was simply a business card. The Gay Pride Committee. It simply said Gay Pride committee in gave the address advise people if they wanted further information or if they wanted to volunteer to help the gay pride committee that they could call a number. When they phoned the number the number gave you a recorded message advising you of the activities of the Gay Pride committee and asked you to leave your name and number if you wanted further information.

You brought a suit against the school and we were successful in getting the ad placed in the paper. In the last issue of the paper this year. We are going to ask the court to give us a permanent injunction requiring the school to follow the rules in the future and to not censor ads based on content. In other words we want them to treat this ad by the Gay Pride committee like they would treat an ad by any other heterosexual group. We don't want them just discriminate against the gay pride Committee. The the other case that we're involved in also involves the Minneapolis schools and that one involves a speaker panel of gay and lesbians who are a resource much like a film or any other speaker might be the superintendent of schools unilaterally decided that that panel could not speak in the Minneapolis Public Schools. So we have brought suit against the Minneapolis schools and we're hoping that we can resolve that in the near future.

Now there the teacher wanted to bring a panel and or student wanted to bring a panel of game in laws when it was going to address students. Basically there were a lot of different people who wanted this panel to be available to the school including parents students teachers and the teachers have also filed suit in this case and have argued that their discretion has been taken away from them and that they should be the ones who should make a decision about whether a particular topic is relevant to their classroom instruction. Now how does that tie in. I mean this is something of course it is pending but how does that tie in coming back again to this kind of world where a lot of people would view this as a moral issue. And there are no doubt parents who would not want their children to be addressed or would not want their children to hear a panel of galas when people speak. How will those issues be resolved. Well I think that that is the question of morality or religion is one that that parents can certainly work with their children on and privacy of their home in their

churches in their community. But the purpose of a public school is to provide education and information to children. And children also need to know that there are people in this world who are homosexual and should be sensitized about that. And so that they don't continue to carry on the old myths and fears about homosexuality and calling the kids names you know queer bashing it's you know a sport among some little you know kids in in playgrounds. Education is needed to to prevent that sort of thing from continuing. And I think that that. That's the difference between what should go on in the public school and what someone may talk about in the home as well as a private or religious matter. Right at the top of the introduction about the current concern going back to Seoul. Ignorance fear kind of issue. The currents are about AIDS it's a it's a very mysterious disease we don't know what causes it we're not real sure how it's transmitted. One of the few

things we do know is that it seems to to occur more often within the population of a gay man has has that issue fanned the flames made people more bigoted more fearful war prejudice. AIDS is still a mystery like you said we have no idea where it and what causes it it is as long as remains as Mystery is going to be going to be creating some some bad press for the gay man's community. I think all of the people have a great deal of concern and compassion and caring for the people who are suffering the consequences of this disease. But the long run I think if AIDS does become the catastrophe that. Some articles seem to indicate that it might have been spreading even spreading and affecting other people. Obviously the gay community in the Lisbon commune you're going to have to face some difficult issues as to how they can achieve their civil rights despite this this playing despite the serious disease.

And haven't there been instances where people have been discriminated against because of that. People that aren't in housing are perhaps not here in this area but have there been situations where because of having AIDS people are frightened of them. I don't want them in their apartment buildings it's such an unknown quantity as to why it spreads and obviously spread through blood or as you know. Very close intimate contact and yet I've heard people risen fears about him being bitten by a mosquito that has been a gay man and that sort of thing that's a little beyond the belief. Now the danger is that it will be used as an excuse for discrimination. I mean we feel that that is like any other medical question. It can be examined scientifically there can be some solutions possibly or some preventive measures that can be taken. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse for just wholesale discrimination. And that's a problem I've seen in some some of the newsletters and newspapers coming out of groups like the Moral Majority. There are articles that that basically say this is you know a sign of the wrath of God on gays and

lesbians and it proves that you know we're right. You know. That kind of thing. I think we have to be careful not to allow the hysteria. To sweep over into general discrimination. Yes it's a kind of a similar type of thing that there are certain ailments certain diseases that that occur within certain populations or some things that are that are specific to Mediterranean people we've got an illness among these Asian refugees that kills them in the night no one seems to know what that is. But yet people don't use that sickle cell anemia among black people. So well do you think that people will the gay lesbian people will eventually win the rights that we're talking about through through the courts through the legislature where will that if it does go where will success come. I think it has to be it has to be ongoing in both legislative lobbying and in the court system that

also public education is extremely important. And as soon as the people understand what's going on they will be a lot more willing to be to treat homosexuals like anybody else. I think that it would be wonderful if we could curate all all of the social ills in one fell swoop. But it's not going to happen that way when there was a large lawsuit. Wonderful but it's not going to happen that way and we're going to have to chip away at these things one at a time. And to be patient in. Just keep plugging away. We're kind of in a very brief time we have left what suggestions would you have for people who are interested in getting involved in in this issue. Well I think why do I bring legislators. You know I think the real important thing to do in Minnesota is to write to your representatives and tell them that you support legislation that would include sexual preference as one of the categories of of people who are

things that could not be the basis for discrimination. Add that to the human rights law and lobby to make telephone call show up at the legislature when that when that bill comes up next session. And I suppose another thing they do is get in touch with your organization and would you tell us how people can do that please OK. It's in Gallup which is the there's a short name for the Minnesota gay and lesbian legal assistance Post Office Box 3 0 2 2 4 St. Paul 5 5 1 7 5 are telephone numbers area code 6 1 2 2 9 1 7 0 7 7. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you and thank you for joining us. Next week we'll talk about the tragedy you all timers disease a mysterious brain disorder that has disturbing consequences for its victims and the people who care for them. Please join us I'm Denise Johnson. Oh pinions expressed on people and causes are not necessarily those of Twin Cities public

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