New Mexico in Focus; 751; Kirtland AFB Spill

PARTIAL FUNDING FOR THE PRODUCTION OF NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE McCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION. >> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO InFOCUS ... PRESSURE INCREASES ON THE AIR FORCE OVER A GIANT FUEL >> WE WANTED TO MAKE A VERY PUBLIC STATEMENT THAT WE WANT EVERY EFFORT TAKEN TO MAKE SURE THAT EDB DOES NOT REACH THAT PART OF THE AQUIFER. >> AND, THE LINE TALKS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AROUND AVIATION, PHOTONICS AND DRONES. NEW MEXICO InFOCUS STARTS NOW. >> THIS WEEK, CORRESPONDENT FLOYD VASQUEZ DELVES INTO THE JET FUEL SPILL AT KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE. IT CAME TO LIGHT IN 1999, BUT 15 YEARS LATER THERE'S STILL NO FINAL PLAN IN PLACE TO CLEAN IT UP AND PRESERVE ALBUQUERQUE'S DRINKING WATER. THE LINE OPINION PANEL LOOKS AT A PUSH TO CREATE HUBS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AROUND SECTORS SUCH AS DRONES, AVIATION AND PHOTONICS. PLUS, INNOVATE ABQ GOT THE GREENLIGHT FROM THE UNM BOARD OF REGENTS TO CREATE AN INNOVATION HUB NEAR

DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE. BUT WE BEGIN TONIGHT WITH THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT. CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS APPROVED A NEW COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT PLAN DRAFTED BY THE MAYOR'S OFFICE THAT'S DESIGNED TO HELP REFORM APD WITH CITIZEN INVOLVEMENT, AND THERE WAS LESS ENTHUSIASM FOR APPROVING MORE MONEY TO AN OHIO ATTORNEY WHO IS THE CITY'S LEAD NEGOTIATOR WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. SOME COUNCILORS AND CITIZENS QUESTION WHETHER HE WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE, AND ALSO THE PROCESS BY WHICH HE WAS CHOSEN. HERE'S THE LINE. >> ALBUQUERQUE CITY OFFICIALS SAY THEY NEEDED A SEASONED NEGOTIATOR TO COME DAMNING REPORT RELEASED IN APRIL FROM THE DOJ. SCOTT GREENWOOD IS A CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY WHO SUED THE CITY OF CINCINNATI, WHICH ALSO FACED A FEDERAL INVESTIGATION, BUT SOME CITY COUNCILORS THIS WEEK BALKED AT HIS FEE OF $350 PER HOUR, AND THE PROCESS BY WHICH HE WAS CHOSEN. A VOTE TO AUTHORIZE ANOTHER 220, AS IN $220,000, FOR HIS WORK DID PASS, BUT A LOT OF QUESTIONING ABOUT THE PROCESS WAS IN THE AIR. COUNCILORS WERE MORE UNIFIED IN SUPPORTING A CITIZEN ENGAGEMENT PLAN CALLED THE

ALBUQUERQUE COLLABORATIVE ON POLICE-COMMUNITY RELATIONS. JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND OTHER STORIES OF THE WEEK, WE HAVE LINE REGULAR TOM GARRITY OF THE GARRITY GROUP. ALSO HERE THIS WEEK IS LINE REGULAR AND ATTORNEY SOPHIE MARTIN. WE WELCOME BACK ANOTHER LINE REGULAR, AS WELL, LAURA SANCHEZ-RIVET OF SANCHEZ LEGAL SOLUTIONS. AND WE WELCOME BACK AGAIN THIS WEEK RACHEL SAMS, EDITOR OF ALBUQUERQUE BUSINESS FIRST. SOPHIE, THIS SEEMS LIKE A HEFTY FEE FOR AN ATTORNEY FOR THOSE CIVILIANS, MEANING US, WHO ARE NOT ATTORNEYS. WE DON'T KNOW THE LAY OF THE LAND ON HOW THESE THINGS COST. I WAS HAVING A GOOD CONVERSATION WITH OUR PRODUCER, MEGAN KAMERICK, ABOUT THIS, ABOUT MARKETPLACES AND WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR, WHAT ONE CAN CHARGE AND WHAT ONE CAN PAY REASONABLY IN THESE KIND OF THINGS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MR. GREENWOOD IS PLAYING A VERY STRONG HAND VERY AGGRESSIVELY HERE. WE NEED THE WORK, SO WHY NOT? POINT. I THINK THE CITY, IF THEY HAVE DONE IT, THEY HAVE NOT SORT OF SHOWN THIS TO THE COMMUNITY, THEY SEEM TO HAVE CHOSEN THIS ONE INDIVIDUAL, SAID THIS IS THE ONLY GUY WE'RE REALLY GOING TO LOOK

AT, AND SO IT'S HARD FOR US ON THE OUTSIDE TO EVALUATE IS HE WORTH THE $350 AN HOUR, WHICH IS NOT UNHEARD OF IN OTHER MARKETS. IT'S UNUSUAL IN NEW MEXICO. BUT HIS WORK IS HIGHLY SPECIALIZED. AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, IT'S HARD TO REALLY SAY WHETHER OR NOT THE CITY IS LIKELY TO GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH. THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES WITH THIS ATTORNEY THAT HAVE COME UP, AS WELL. POTENTIAL TIES TO TAZER, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, THE COMPANY THAT PROVIDES THE WEAPONRY AND CAMERAS THAT APD HAS HAD SO MUCH DIFFICULTY WITH. >> AND AS A REMINDER, OUR COLLEAGUE HERE, GWYNETH DOLAND, ASKED HIM DIRECTLY AT THIS TABLE ABOUT THAT, LAURA SANCHEZ-RIVET, AND HE BASICALLY SAID, IT'S NONE OF ANYBODY'S BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS MY CONTRACT. NOW, HE ALREADY HAS A $70,000 CONTRACT IN HAND, ANOTHER $220,000 APPROVED, AND IT COULD GO UP AS FAR AS HALF A MILLION AS HAS BEEN REPORTED. WHAT WE DON'T KNOW IS, WHAT DOES ONE DO NEGOTIATING WITH THE DOJ? WHAT IS THIS SPECIAL SKILL THAT NO OTHER ATTORNEY AT $250 AN HOUR, OR $150 AN HOUR SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO DO? I KNOW YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS, BECAUSE

WE'RE NOT PRIVY, BUT ANY GUESSES ON WHAT MAKES THIS SO SPECIAL, NEGOTIATING WITH >> I WOULD BE COMPLETELY SPECULATING ON WHAT KIND OF CARDS THE CITY IS HOLDING AS FAR AS UNDERSTANDING HIS SPECIALIZATION, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS FROM PUBLIC REPORTS THAT HE'S NEGOTIATED ONE SIMILAR AGREEMENT WITH THE DOJ IN CINCINNATI. YOU KNOW, PART OF MY HEARTBURN IN THIS, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE'S CONCERN, PROBABLY SOME OF THE COUNCILORS, AS WELL, IS THAT IT WASN'T PUT OUT TO BID. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WENT THROUGH THE REGULAR BID PROCESS. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OR THE MAYOR, HIMSELF, SOMEHOW MADE A PHONE CALL EARLY ON WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING, GOT IN TOUCH WITH THIS GUY WHO SEEMED TO RISE TO THE TOP AS FAR AS THE PERSON WITH THE RIGHT KNOWLEDGE. AND A $70,000 CONTRACT, I MEAN, THAT'S THE EQUIVALENT OF A DECENT, REALLY WELL-PAYING JOB IN THE LEGAL COMMUNITY HERE IN NEW MEXICO. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> HE ALREADY GOT THAT PART. BUT THEN TO HAVE A NO SOURCE BID, BASICALLY, GET APPROVED

FOR ANOTHER $220,000, WHICH COULD GO UP TO $500,000, JUST SORT OF DOESN'T SIT WELL WITH PEOPLE, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FIRMS IN THIS STATE THAT HAVE A WIDE VARIETY OF EXPERIENCE, A LOT OF PARTNERS WITH BACKGROUNDS IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND OTHER THINGS THAT THEY'VE DONE, AND IT'S JUST HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS THE ONLY GUY IN THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE STATE, THAT WOULD HAVE THIS KIND OF EXPERIENCE. >> THAT'S THE FEEDBACK I'M GETTING, AS WELL. TOM, THERE'S OTHER CITIES THAT HAVE HAD NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE DOJ. THERE WERE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THEIRS, OTHER THAN CINCINNATI. AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW, ARE WE IN A POWER POSITION WITH THIS MAN SITTING DOWN? ARE WE IN A POSITIVE POSITION VERSUS SOMEBODY ELSE? AGAIN, I'M ASKING FOR SPECULATION AND I REALIZE THAT'S VERY UNFAIR, BUT IT'S A DIFFICULTY TO GET YOUR ARMS AROUND SOMETIMES WHEN >> YEAH, WHENEVER YOU LOOK AT CONTRACTS AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE INTENT OF CONTRACTS, YOU'RE ALWAYS TRYING TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES TO FIGURE IT OUT. BY MEANS OF DISCLOSURE, MY FIRM IS IN THE MIDDLE OF CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS SERVICES.

>> WELL SAID. >> YOU BET. YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO BE AN EXPERT IN SOMEBODY ELSE'S BACKYARD, AND MAYBE THAT'S THE PHILOSOPHY AND THE APPROACH THAT THEY'RE USING HERE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> BUT, YOU KNOW, IT PROBABLY COULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED A LITTLE BIT BETTER. BUT NOW THE PROOF IS GOING TO BE, LET'S SEE HOW MUCH THIS PERSON CAN SAVE THE CITY IN POTENTIAL -- YOU KNOW, A MILLION DOLLARS HERE, A MILLION DOLLARS THERE, BECAUSE THIS DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE SETTLEMENT, TO IMPLEMENT IT IS NOT GOING TO BE CHEAP. SO THAT'S WHERE YOU REALLY GET THE MONEY IN THESE TYPES OF SITUATIONS. YOU PAY SOMEBODY $350 AN HOUR, YOU'RE EXPECTING A CERTAIN OUTCOME THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE TO PAY AS MUCH. >> NOW, LET ME STOP YOU THERE, RIGHT THERE, THIS OUTCOME. SOPHIE BROUGHT THIS UP EARLIER, TOO, AND RACHEL SAMS, LET ME TURN TO YOU ON THIS ONE, HOW DO WE KNOW WE'RE GETTING OUR MONIES WORTH? AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHEN THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE SETTLED, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S A BOND ISSUE WHERE IF SOMETHING GOES HINKY, THERE'S LIKE A CLAWBACK AND THIS MAN HAS TO GIVE BACK A BUNCH OF MONEY BECAUSE SOME CERTAIN GOAL HAS NOT BEEN REACHED. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING

TO HAPPEN. >> RIGHT. WELL, THE GOAL IS TO HELP THE CITY FIX IT, RIGHT, AND JUST TO MOVE FORWARD AND IMPROVE THINGS AND MOVE ON. WHEN I LOOK AT THIS ISSUE, I FOCUS LESS ON THE COST, BECAUSE ULTIMATELY WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO GET SOMEONE TO HELP THE CITY IN THIS WHO IS BEST EQUIPPED TO DO SO, HAS THE EXPERIENCE, HAS THE KNOWLEDGE. THAT MAY NOT BE CHEAP. BUT I THINK THAT SOME OF THE POINTS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED AROUND TRANSPARENCY ARE REALLY IMPORTANT. NOW IS PROBABLY NOT THE TIME WITH ALL OF THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN RAISED ABOUT APD AND THE CITY AND THE WAY THAT INFORMATION HAS OR HAS NOT BEEN SHARED TO CREATE ANYTHING LIKE THE APPEARANCE OF A PROCESS THAT ISN'T TRANSPARENT. >> THAT'S INTERESTING. AND SOPHIE, TO WRAP UP, AGAIN, IT'S NOT LIKE A BUSINESS NEGOTIATION. MR. GREENWOOD CAN'T COME UP AND SAY, LOOK, I SAVED Y'ALL $15 MILLION. WELL, DID YOU? I MEAN, HOW? WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. >> I SEE YOUR HEARTACHE AROUND THIS ISSUE, GENE, BUT I THINK THAT THIS IS A CONTEXT IN WHICH THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES LIKE THAT. WE DON'T GET TO HAVE ULTIMATE SAY. IT IS A NEGOTIATION. AND SO THE CITY WILL BE ABLE TO SEE HOW HE CONDUCTS HIMSELF, THE TYPES OF

EXCHANGES THAT HAPPEN WITH DOJ. I THINK THE LARGER QUESTION REALLY AT THIS POINT IS, WHAT IS THE CITY NEGOTIATING FOR? AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN ENOUGH OF. WHAT ARE THEIR GOALS WORKING WITH DOJ THROUGH THE NEGOTIATOR, AND ARE THEY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THE CITY AND THE COMMUNITY, AS A WHOLE, IS INTERESTED IN SEEING HAPPEN. >> ONE THING I WANT TO JUST JUMP IN AND SAY, TOM MENTIONED IN HIS DISCLOSURE ABOUT HIS NEGOTIATION FOR A CONTRACT. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT TOM HAS BEEN HERE FOR MANY YEARS. HE HAS GOT A REPUTATION IN THE COMMUNITY. HE EMPLOYES PEOPLE. HE PAYS TAXES, I'M ASSUMING. YOU KNOW, HE'S A TAXPAYER HERE. SO WHEN THESE KINDS OF CONTRACTS GET -- YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT EVEN PUT OUT TO BID. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FIRMS THAT COULD HAVE COMPETED FOR THESE WHERE THEY HAVE EMPLOYEES, THEY PAY THEIR TAXES, THEY'RE COMMUNITY MEMBERS. THIS GUY IS ESSENTIALLY PARACHUTING IN -- AND NOTHING AGAINST MR. GREENWOOD, I'M SURE HE'S GOT A LOT OF EXPERIENCE. BUT HE'S ESSENTIALLY PARACHUTING INTO NEW MEXICO AND TAKING HIS MONEY BACK OUT OF THE STATE. >> THAT'S PART OF MY HEARTBURN, TOO. >> IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT HITS ME THE WRONG WAY.

I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THERE AREN'T PEOPLE WITH THIS KIND OF EXPERIENCE HERE. >> I DON'T GET THE SENSE THAT THERE'S A TEAM INVOLVED HERE FOR THE $350 AN HOUR. THAT'S PART OF MY HEARTBURN. I'M SURE THERE IS. I'M NOT SAYING THE MAN IS GOING TO SIT DOWN ABSOLUTELY ALONE, BUT THERE'S NOT A TEAM, AS WELL. YOU KNOW, LAURA, THERE'S A NEW COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT PLAN THAT CAME FROM THE ADMINSTRATION, BUT RAY GARDUNO WAS THE LONE DISSENTING VOICE ON THIS, WHICH IS INTERESTING, BECAUSE HE'S SUCH A COMMUNITY GUY. BUT HE SAID HE WAS CONCERNED THAT THE COMMUNITY WOULD BE 'RELEGATED TO THESE PERIPHERAL GROUPS THAT REALLY HAVE NO POWER WHATSOEVER.' HOW DID THAT QUOTE STRIKE YOU? DOES HE HAVE SOMETHING GOING ON THERE? >> WELL, I CAN UNDERSTAND HIS CONCERN. I THINK IT'S THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO SEE THE SORT OF RESPONSIBILITY DELEGATED TO ANOTHER GROUP, TO AN OUTSIDE GROUP THAT ISN'T ELECTED OR RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS. AND I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT SENTIMENTALITY. I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT THE GROUPS THAT ARE INVOLVED CERTAINLY HAVE A LONG-TERM VISION OF WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE, AND I THINK THEIR COMMITMENT IS EARNEST AND THEY ARE AT THE TABLE, AND THEY'RE GOING TO SEE THIS THROUGH FOR THE LONG HAUL. BUT I THINK FROM COUNCILOR GARDUNO'S PERSPECTIVE, IT'S JUST SORT OF A DESIRE TO NOT HAVE THIS BECOME AN ELEMENT

THAT'S PUSHED OFF ONTO SOMEONE ELSE'S TABLE, RATHER THAN ADDRESSED BY THE COUNCIL AND THE CITY. >> THAT MAKES SENSE. AND TOM, SOME WEEKS AGO YOU HAD MENTIONED THAT THE BONES OF THIS IDEA WAS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD FELT WAS NEEDED AND NECESSARY FOR THE COMMUNITY. >> YEAH, AND ACTUALLY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, I APPLAUD IT, BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY REALLY NEEDS A WAY TO REALLY SPEAK THEIR MIND, TO PROVIDE THEIR INPUT, WHICH IS ONE REASON WE SAW A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT PROTESTS THAT WERE POPPING UP, WHETHER IT WAS IN THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OR TAKING OVER THE CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS. SO JUST PROVIDING THAT OUTLET IS STRONG. I THINK TO COUNCILOR GARDUNO'S POINT, THOUGH, HE WANTS TO MAKE SURE IT'S JUST NOT LIP SERVICE. HE WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE, SPECIFICALLY THE MAYOR'S OFFICE, WHO IS IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, ACTUALLY TAKES SOME OF WHAT IS SAID. SO WHILE IT WAS A JOINT ANNOUNCEMENT FROM BOTH THE CITY COUNCIL AND THE MAYOR'S OFFICE, YOU KNOW, IT WILL REMAIN TO BE SEEN JUST HOW MUCH OF THE INPUT FROM THESE GROUPS, WHICH I THINK ARE A GOOD IDEA, REALLY MAKE IT THROUGH TO THE NEGOTIATING STAGE.

>> SURE. RACHEL, THERE'S AN INTERESTING BIT OF THE ART OF CRAFTWORK HERE WITH THESE KIND OF COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT THINGS. THERE'S A CALL OUT THERE FROM SOME FOLKS SAYING THEY WANT TO SEE THE MAYOR AT EVERY ONE OF THEM. BUT THERE'S A DANGER THERE, TOO, BECAUSE FOLKS ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THEIR POUND OF FLESH, SO TO SPEAK, AND IF THE MAYOR IS THERE LIVE -- BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO MANAGE IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THESE THINGS. YOU HAVE TO MANAGE THOSE KIND OF THINGS. >> ABSOLUTELY. IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY CHALLENGING MANAGING THE EXPECTATIONS ON THIS. DOING THESE I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT TO BUILD THAT SENSE OF TRANSPARENCY AND INVOLVEMENT THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE, AND TO MAYBE LESSEN SOME OF THE MISTRUST THAT'S DEVELOPED BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND APD OVER THE YEARS. IT'S GOING TO BE A TOUGH CHALLENGE, TOO, TO BALANCE. PEOPLE WILL WANT THEIR VOICES TO NOT ONLY BE HEARD, BUT INCLUDED. ULTIMATELY, OF COURSE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO -- THE CITY IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO WHAT THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY TO MOVE FORWARD WITH DOJ, AND IT'S GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLENGE TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE FEEL REALLY HEARD AND INCLUDED DURING THAT PROCESS. >> WE'RE DOWN TO ABOUT 20 SECONDS HERE. IF THIS PROCESS GETS GOING,

AND IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL, IT'S INTERESTING TO TRY TO PREDICT THE OUTCOME OF THIS. DOES IT MAKE PEOPLE FEEL SAFER, FEEL HEARD, AS RACHEL WAS SAYING, THE OUTCOMES? >> I THINK TO RACHEL'S POINT, HELPING PEOPLE TO FEEL HEARD IS JUST THE FIRST STEP, AND SO IT'S GOING TO BE HOW THE TEAM WORKING ON THIS PROJECT IMPLEMENTS THOSE SUGGESTIONS, REFLECTS THEM BACK TO THE COMMUNITY. ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO JUST BE HEARD THE FIRST TIME. THE DOOR COMES DOWN AND YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE NOT HEARD IF SOMETHING ISN'T DONE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. THERE'S A DANGER TO THIS. THEY HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD OUTCOME ON THIS, OR IT COULD MAKE THINGS WORSE, IN FACT, IF IT DOESN'T WORK. NOW, COMING UP, A CITIZEN WATCHDOG GROUP QUESTIONS THE SLOW PACE OF CLEAN UP AT >> THIS IS A DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGY THAT'S INVOLVED IN A LOT OF THINGS, EVERYTHING FROM MEDICAL ROBOTICS TO OTHER MORE DEFENSE TYPE OF TECHNOLOGY. SO IT CAN IMPACT A LOT OF AREAS.

IT HAS A POTENTIAL FOR GROWTH IN A LOT OF AREAS. >> IT'S BEEN 15 YEARS SINCE A JET FUEL LEAK AT KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE CAME TO LIGHT, BUT THERE HAS BEEN NO REMEDIATION AND THERE IS STILL NO FINAL PLAN IN PLACE. WE BEGIN OUR COVERAGE WITH A SOMEWHAT CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE IN THE DEBATE OVER THE SPILL, DAVE McCOY. HE'S PRESIDENT OF CITIZEN ACTION NEW MEXICO, A LEADING INDEPENDENT SOURCE OF MR. McCOY IS A LAWYER BY TRADE, AND HE SAT DOWN WITH CORRESPONDENT FLOYD VASQUEZ IN ADVANCE OF OUR LARGER PANEL DISCUSSION WITH FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS. >> MR. McCOY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. AND THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT DECLINED TO PARTICIPATE IN A PANEL DISCUSSION WITH YOU AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR GROUP. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? >> WELL, THEY DECLINED TO REALLY HAVE MUCH DISCOURSE IN TERMS OF THEIR MEETINGS, YOU GO TO THEM AND THEY'RE

VERY CONTROLLED. THEY WANT TO CONTROL WHAT INFORMATION COMES OUT, WHAT GETS QUESTIONED, HOW THEY RESPOND TO IT. SO THERE'S A LOT OF MISINFORMATION THAT'S BEEN GIVEN OUT BY BOTH KIRTLAND AND ITS CONTRACTORS, AND TO SOME DEGREE THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT. SO THEY DON'T LIKE TO BE QUESTIONED ABOUT THAT, OR CONTRADICTED. >> NOW, IS THAT WHY YOU HAVE FOCUSED SO MUCH ENERGY AND TIME ON THIS FOR QUITE A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW? >> THE REASON WE'VE FOCUSED A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY ON THIS IS BECAUSE WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF ALBUQUERQUE RESIDENTS. WE BELIEVE THAT THIS PROBLEM CAN BE SO DEVASTATING TO THIS COMMUNITY THAT SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE OF AN EMERGENCY NATURE AND IMMEDIATELY, AND WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT HAPPEN.

SO WE'RE TRYING TO INFORM THE PUBLIC ABOUT THIS AND GET THEM INVOLVED TO MAKE SURE THAT SOMETHING HAPPENS IN TERMS OF REMEDIATION. >> WHY IS IT AN EMERGENCY? GO INTO THAT. TALK ABOUT IT. >> IT'S AN EMERGENCY BECAUSE THERE IS A VERY DANGEROUS CHEMICAL CALLED ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE. THIS CHEMICAL IS SO TOXIC THAT IT CAN CONTAMINATE 13 MILLION GALLONS OF WATER WITH A HALF TEASPOON. A HALF TEASPOON WAS IN EVERY GALLON OF THE AVIATION GAS THAT WAS SPILLED, AND THERE WERE PROBABLY MILLIONS OF GALLONS OF AVIATION GAS SPILLED. SO THIS CONTAMINANT IS LONG-LIVED, IT IS VERY SOLUBLE IN THE WATER, AND IT'S ONLY ABOUT 3500 FEET AWAY FROM THE MUNICIPAL DRINKING WATER WELLS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. IT'S TRAVELED 6,000 FEET, IT'S 1000 FEET WIDE, AND IT'S NOT BEEN MONITORED PROPERLY. THEY DON'T KNOW ACTUALLY HOW LONG IT IS, HOW WIDE IT IS,

HOW DEEP IT IS, OR HOW FAST IT'S MOVING. SO UNLESS YOU CAN CHARACTERIZE THE PLUME IN THOSE TERMS, YOU CANNOT COME UP WITH APPROPRIATE REMEDIES TO TRY AND PREVENT THIS FROM REACHING THE MUNICIPAL WELLS THAT SUPPLY OUR WATER. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE EXPERTS WHO WILL SAY THAT THEY DO HAVE A GOOD SENSE, A GOOD HANDLE OF THE SIZE OF THE PLUME AND WHAT IT'S DOING, AS WELL AS THE CHEMICAL THAT YOU SPEAK OF, ABOUT THEY'RE AWARE OF HOW DANGER IT IS. WHILE I THINK EVERYONE THINKS THAT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND IT IS URGENT, THEY DON'T SPEAK OF IT IN THE SAME EMERGENCY TERMS THAT YOU'RE DOING IT. NOW, WHY DON'T YOU TRUST WHAT THE OFFICIALS ARE TELLING YOU? >> WELL, THERE'S MANY REASONS. JUST FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS SITUATION, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE PIPELINE TESTING.

INSTEAD OF DOING THE PIPELINE TESTING, THEY ISSUED WAIVERS FOR IT. THEY KNEW THAT THERE WAS LEAKING IN 1992 AT THE PUMP HOUSE FOR THE BULK FUELS FACILITY. THEY MISCHARACTERIZED THEN WHEN THEY KNEW ABOUT IT. THEY'VE MISCHARACTERIZED THE SIZE OF THIS PLUME. AT FIRST THEY CLAIMED IT WAS 157,000 GALLONS IN THE YEAR 2000. THAT WENT UP TO A MILLION TO TWO MILLION GALLONS IN 2008. BY 2010, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT EIGHT MILLION GALLONS. IN 2012, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT 24 MILLION GALLONS OF JET FUEL AND AVIATION GAS BEING SPILLED. SO THESE ARE ENORMOUS DISCREPANCIES AND INDICATE HOW LITTLE THEY HAVE REALLY DONE TO CHARACTERIZE THE FULL SIZE OF THIS PLUME. MOST OF THE MONITORING WELLS THAT THEY'VE INSTALLED HAVE BEEN IN A NARROW AREA, AND

THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT AND NUMEROUS OTHER EXPERTS HAVE SAID THAT, WELL, THERE'S A VERY LARGE DATA GAP BETWEEN WHERE THEY THINK THE FRONT OF THE PLUME MIGHT BE AND THE MUNICIPAL WELLS, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE STUDIED. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY SAID WAS THAT ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE WOULD BE DISAPPEARING AT A RATE OF 10% A YEAR. THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR THAT WHATSOEVER TO USE IN THEIR MODELING. SO THERE'S NUMEROUS DATA GAPS THAT EXIST, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CORRECTED, AND WE'RE URGING THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INDEPENDENT SCIENTIFIC TASK FORCE, PROBABLY THROUGH THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES OF SCIENCE, TO REVIEW THIS PROBLEM AND COME UP WITH WHAT THEY THINK COULD BE IMMEDIATE EMERGENCY MEASURES TO BE PUT IN PLACE. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE RECOMMENDED THAT OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATES TAKE

UNDER THEIR WING. THIS YEAR. >> YES. >> DO YOU SEE A SHIFT IN THE NARRATIVE AROUND THIS STORY, A GREATER URGENCY BY OFFICIALS AND OTHERS TO GET THIS PROBLEM UNDER CONTROL? >> WELL, THEY SPEAK OF A GREAT URGENCY, BUT THEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ACTUAL AGENCIES AND KIRTLAND AND THEIR CONTRACTORS, YOU DON'T SEE THINGS THAT ARE BEING PROPOSED OR ACTUALLY PUT INTO PLACE THAT WOULD LEAD TO THE KIND OF LARGE SCALE REMEDIATION THAT NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE HERE. OTHER THAN ONE SMALL PUMP-AND-TREAT TEST WELL, THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY OF THE CONTAMINATION THAT'S DISSOLVED IN THE AQUIFER REMOVED FROM THE AQUIFER. RECENTLY KIRTLAND PROPOSED A AIR SPARGING, WHICH IS LIKE BLOWING BUBBLES IN YOUR MILK

WHEN YOU WERE A LITTLE KID, AND THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT CAME OUT AND SAID, HEY, THAT'S GOING TO JUST SPREAD THE CONTAMINATION FURTHER. SO YOU GET THESE PLANS THAT ARE SUBMITTED, THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT COMES BACK AND SAYS, NO, THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. WELL, WHAT IS GOING TO WORK, AND WHEN IS IT GOING TO WORK, AND WHEN IS IT GOING TO BE PUT INTO PLACE TO PROTECT THIS CITY AND ITS DRINKING WATER, IS OUR QUESTION. >> AND WHAT IS THE CITIZENS' ROLE IN THIS MATTER? >> WELL, AT THIS POINT, IT SHOULD BE PROBABLY PURE PANIC ABOUT WHAT THEIR DRINKING WATER MAY CONTAIN. >> THERE'S LITTLE, LITTLE TO SUGGEST THAT ANYONE IS IN ANY DANGER FOR AT LEAST YEARS AWAY. THERE SEEMS TO BE A CONSENSUS THAT ANY OF THE IMMEDIATE DANGER THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT IS, CONTAMINATION IN THE DRINKING WATER, IS YEARS OFF. MAYBE NOT 30 YEARS, LIKE THE LATEST EPA REPORT SAYS, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS OR EVEN IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS; ISN'T THAT

CORRECT? >> WELL, THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT, GOING BACK TO 2010, MAINTAINED THAT THERE NEEDED TO BE AN INTERIM PLAN PUT IN PLACE TO CLEAN THIS UP WITHIN FIVE YEARS. GOING BACK ABOUT TWO TO THREE YEARS AGO, JIM DAVIS, THE HAZARDOUS WASTE BUREAU CHIEF, SAID IT COULD BE SOMEWHERE AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF FIVE YEARS THAT IT COULD ARRIVE, AND THEN MORE RECENTLY THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT SAID THAT BASED ON MODELING DONE BY THE EPA, THEY THOUGHT FIVE TO SEVEN YEARS. I ASKED FOR THAT EPA REPORT UNDER A FOIA REQUEST, AND THEN THE EPA SAID, OH, WELL, 30 YEARS. AND THEN THEY CITED ALL THESE DIFFERENT DATA GAPS AND UNCERTAINTIES AND EVERYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE PRECLUDED THEM FROM EVEN MAKING THE CONCLUSION THAT IT WOULD BE 30 YEARS. AND BY THE WAY, THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT STILL HASN'T GIVEN ME THE DATA RUN THAT THEY CLAIM THEY REVIEWED TO

COME UP WITH THE FIVE TO SEVEN YEAR CONCLUSION. >> WELL, WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME. ANY FINAL POINTS? >> WELL, THIS ENTIRE SPILL TAKES PLACE IN A GREATER CONTEXT OF CONTAMINATION OF BOTH SANDIA LABS AND KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE, AND THE PUBLIC SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THERE IS THAT LARGER PICTURE. THERE'S TCE CONTAMINATION, NITRATES CONTAMINATION, RADIOACTIVE CONTAMINATION, AND UNLINED PITS AND TRENCHES AND DUMPS AT SANDIA LABS THAT AREN'T BEING TAKEN CARE OF. SO IT'S A VERY LARGE PICTURE OF CONTAMINATION, NOT JUST THE JET FUEL SPILL. >> AND WHERE CAN PEOPLE FIND YOU FOR MORE INFORMATION? >> THEY CAN GO TO OUR WEBSITE. www.RadFreeNM.org. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THIS PLUME IS, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, IS FAIRLY WELL CONFINED. IT IS MOVING PERHAPS

100 FEET A YEAR, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO CONTAMINATE THE ENTIRE GROUNDWATER SUPPLY FOR THE MUNICIPAL AREA. >> IN THE 1990s AND EARLY 2000s, IT WAS ALL ABOUT NOW WE'RE HEARING ABOUT HUBS AROUND THE INDUSTRY SECTORS IN THE STATE, INCLUDING AVIATION, DRONES AND PHOTONICS. NEW MEXICO HAS BECOME A LEADING CENTER OF DRONE TESTING AND RESEARCH, AND NOT JUST FOR MILITARY APPLICATIONS. GOOGLE BOUGHT OUT ONE COMPANY IN MORIARTY EARLIER THIS YEAR THAT IS DEVELOPING SOLAR POWERED DRONES, AND OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION IS PUSHING FOR AN ADVANCED PHOTONICS MANUFACTURING HUB HERE IN OUR CITY. MEANWHILE, THE AVIATION SECTOR CONTINUES TO GROW WITH CSI AVIATION ACQUIRING AN AUSTRALIAN MANUFACTURER, AND PLANS FOR A PROPOSED AVIATION THEMED BUSINESS PARK UNVEILED THIS WEEK. AND A DIFFERENT KIND OF HUB, INNOVATE ABQ, IS MOVING FORWARD AFTER UNM REGENTS AGREED TO BUY A SITE NEAR DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE. RACHEL, THESE ARE WELL THOUGHT OUT STRATEGIES

SEEMINGLY, OR ARE PEOPLE JUST DESPERATE TO GET THINGS GOING IN THING LINGERING RECESSION, OR IS THIS AN ABSOLUTE CORNER THAT WE NEED TO TAKE IN ALBUQUERQUE AND JUST RUN THAT WAY WITH THIS INNOVATE ABQ IDEA. WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT? ENCOURAGING HERE IS TO SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENT TRACKS ON WHICH PEOPLE ARE PURSUING NEW TYPES OF JOBS AND NEW TYPES OF GROWTH AND EMPLOYMENT FOR OUR ECONOMY. WE REALLY NEED IT. THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS OUR BIGGEST EMPLOYER, IS CONTINUING TO SHRINK. SO I THINK PEOPLE ARE REALLY STARTING TO FEEL THAT URGENCY, THAT WE'VE GOT TO START WORKING ON A LOT OF NEW THINGS. >> YOU HAD A GOOD PIECE THIS WEEK ON PHOTONICS, SPECIFICALLY. COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT? IT WAS INTERESTING. DALE DEKKER HAD A GOOD QUOTE, ONE OF OUR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT MUCKAMUCKS HERE IN TOWN. PEOPLE ARE VERY EXCITED ABOUT PHOTONICS. WHY ALL THE EXCITEMENT? WHAT'S GOING ON? >> THIS IS A DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGY THAT'S INVOLVED IN A LOT OF THINGS, EVERYTHING FROM MEDICAL ROBOTICS TO OTHER MORE DEFENSE TYPE OF TECHNOLOGY, SO IT CAN IMPACT A LOT OF AREAS.

IT HAS THE POTENTIAL FOR GROWTH IN A LOT OF AREAS. AND AGAIN, JUST DIVERSITY IN JOBS AND EMPLOYMENT THAT WE ARE REALLY LACKING. >> ABSOLUTELY. ALSO, SOPHIE MARTIN, IT SEEMS TO FIT A NATURAL SKILL SET THAT WE HAVE HERE WITH PHOTONICS. SOMETHING SEEMS TO BE BUILT ALREADY, IT JUST NEEDS TO GET OUT IN THE MARKETPLACE. >> WE HAVE SOME HISTORY OF SUCCESSFUL COMPANIES COMING THESE TECHNOLOGIES, AND SO I THINK IT WAS NOT SURPRISING TO ME TO HEAR OUR SENATORS SAY, FOR INSTANCE, THAT THEY THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA, AND THAT THIS WOULD BE A FOCUS FOR THE FUTURE. IT'S CERTAINLY -- YOU KNOW, YOU ALWAYS WANT TO BE AWARE OF, ARE WE BUILDING CLEAN TECHNOLOGY, WHAT WILL BE THE WATER USAGE, ETC., ETC. BUT IT DOES SEEM LIKE A REASONABLE FIT FOR US. >> JUST TO BE CLEAR ON THE PHOTONICS THINGS, THERE'S ACTUALLY SOME IMPETUS COMING OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LOOKING FOR PLACES TO DO THIS, AND I LOVE THE OPPORTUNISM AT PLAY HERE, TOM. THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT WITH ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. YOU SEE AN OPPORTUNITY, AND YOU GO RUN TOWARDS IT AND MAKE YOUR PITCH. >> YEAH, AND YOU KNOW WHAT I REALLY LIKE ABOUT THE COMPANIES THAT YOU TALKED THE MOST PART THESE ARE PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANIES

THAT ARE LOOKING FOR OPPORTUNITIES TO EXPAND. SO IT'S BASICALLY THE MARKET THAT'S DETERMINING, WE NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL. AND NEW MEXICO HAS SUCH A GREAT BASE FOR MANUFACTURING JOBS, WHETHER IT'S FOR, YOU KNOW, THE PHOTONICS MANUFACTURING THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE IS LOOKING TO DO, OR HELPING WITH THE NEW CSI AVIATION AND BUILDING THESE NEW HOVER KIND OF AIRCRAFT AND SUCH. THERE'S A LOT OF CAPACITY FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, YOU KNOW. BUT IT'S VERY ENCOURAGING, I THINK, FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE TO SEE BUSINESS TAKING THE BULL BY THE HORNS AND SAYING, WE JUST NEED TO GET GOING ON THIS. >> I LOVE THE WORD CAPACITY THERE IN THAT CONTEXT. THAT'S VERY INTERESTING. AND ON THE AVIATION SECTOR SPECIFICALLY, I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE PLAN. I LOVE THE PLAN. I'LL SHOW MY CARDS RIGHT THERE. RIGHT OFF OF GIBSON, ACROSS FROM THE GOLF COURSE, YOU CAN SEE THE RUNWAY THAT'S BEEN SHUT DOWN SINCE 2012. IT'S A VERY AGGRESSIVE PLAN FOR THAT AREA. IT'S WONDERFUL. >> YES, IT'S THE AVIATION CENTER FOR EXCELLENCE - ACE. IT'S GOT A COOL NAME, TOO. YOU GET AN ACRONYM. IT'S GOT TO BE SUCCESSFUL. HUNT DEVELOPMENT IS THE ONE

THAT'S SPEARHEADING THAT WHOLE PROJECT, AND HUNT HAS A VERY STRONG TRACK RECORD IN TEXAS AND OTHER AREAS OF MAKING SUCCESSFUL PROJECTS. JUST SEEING THE LAYOUT OF THIS, I THINK IT'S VERY ENCOURAGING, AS WELL, BECAUSE THE OPPORTUNITY IT PROVIDES NOT JUST FOR RETAIL IN AN AREA WHERE YOU NEED A LOT OF RETAIL, BUT ALSO IN THE AVIATION SPECIFIC INDUSTRY THAT THEY HAVE PORTIONED OUT ON THAT FORMER RUNWAY THAT'S BEEN DECOMMISSIONED. I THINK IT'S A GREAT OPPORTUNITY. >> A LITTLE RETAIL IN THERE, TOO, YOU CAN GET TO IT OFF GIBSON, IT'S VERY INTERESTING. DRONES, LAURA SANCHEZ, SEEMS TO BE AN INTERESTING THING HERE. LET ME TAKE US BACK A COUPLE OF YEARS. THERE WAS A LITTLE WHISPER CAMPAIGN ABOUT THE UPCOMING DRONE ECONOMY THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T QUITE READY TO EMBRACE HERE IN NEW MEXICO, AND NOW IT SEEMS MORE REAL. THE RABURN SALE IS A HUGE DEAL OUT IN MORIARTY, I MENTIONED, FOR GOOGLE. ARE WE OFF AND RUNNING ON DRONES HERE? IS THIS A GOOD THING FOR NEW MEXICO? WHAT ARE WE GOING TO GET OUT OF THIS DRONE THING, I GUESS IS MY OVERALL QUESTION. HOPEFULLY A PLACE TO BE SORT OF A GO-TO IN TERMS OF MANUFACTURING FOR THAT, AND A TECHNOLOGY CENTER FOR

DRONES. I'M NOT SURE THAT IT'S SORT OF THE WIDE-SPREAD APPLICATION YET OF THE TECHNOLOGY, BUT IT SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF COMPANIES ARE LOOKING AT IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, AND OF COURSE WE KNOW ABOUT THE MILITARY ASPECT OF IT, OR THE DEFENSE OPPORTUNITIES IN IT. SO I THINK THAT IT'S A GOOD DIRECTION TO BE GOING IN. AGAIN, IF A LOT OF THESE DEALS ARE DONE AND STRUCTURED PROPERLY WITH THE RIGHT CLAWBACKS AND THE INCENTIVES ARE THERE, BUT THERE'S ALSO PROTECTION FOR THE LOCAL COMMUNITIES, THE COUNTIES AND CITIES THAT ARE INVOLVED, I THINK THEY CAN BE DONE WELL. AND IT'S AN IMPORTANT STEP FORWARD FOR NEW MEXICO AND OUR ECONOMY. >> BUT SOPHIE, ARE DRONES POSSIBLY JUST THE LATEST FEDERAL GOLD RUSH FOR NEW MEXICO TO RUSH TO, INSTEAD OF BUILDING A MORE VIGOROUS PRIVATE ECONOMY? >> IT'S NOT AN UNREASONABLE QUESTION. WHAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, THOUGH, IS THAT THERE IS A DECENT AMOUNT OF KIND OF, TO USE THE OLD PHRASE, PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP HAPPENING, THAT THERE IS THE PUSH THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT. THEY DO SEEM TO BE INTERESTED IN LOCATING -- IS IT HOLLOMAN AIR FORCE BASE WHERE WE'VE GOT TRAINING FOR

DRONE FLIGHT HAPPENING? >> ARE THEY CALLED PILOTS? >> I THINK THEY MIGHT BE CALLED PILOTS. I MEAN, WE DO SEE THAT GOVERNMENTAL OPPORTUNITY HERE. BUT WE'RE ALSO SEEING THE RISE OF THE -- I ALMOST SAID TERMINATORS, LIKE WE'RE SEEING THE RISE OF THE DRONES. WE'RE SEEING THE RISE OF PRIVATE BUSINESS, AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO ENCOURAGING ABOUT THIS, IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST IN THE GOVERNMENT'S HANDS AND THAT THE TWO CAN WORK TOGETHER. >> INTERESTING. RACHEL, STAYING WITH DRONES HERE, OBVIOUSLY IT'S GONE WELL BEYOND A MILITARY APPLICATION, IN CASE PEOPLE ARE STILL WONDERING ABOUT THAT. I'M AMAZED AT HOW FOLKS ARE USING DRONES OUT THERE. IT'S REALLY QUITE SOMETHING WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD. SHEEP FARMERS IN SCOTLAND ARE USING DRONES. IT'S AMAZING. >> RIGHT. THERE'S A LOT OF NEAT THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPLORING OUT THERE. SOME OF THEM ARE RAISING SOME VERY INTERESTING QUESTIONS, BUT DEFINITELY THE QUESTION THAT YOU RAISED AND THAT SOPHIE WAS ADDRESSING, IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S BECOMING FAR BEYOND,

THAT IT WILL EVOLVE INTO FAR BEYOND A GOVERNMENTAL OPPORTUNITY. IT WILL POTENTIALLY CREATE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY FOR PRIVATE BUSINESS, AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE ALREADY SEEING THAT AND WANTING TO CAPITALIZE ON THAT. >> TO THAT END, IF I MAY JUST THROW IN, THE ONE THING THAT WE'RE NOT REALLY SEEING RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE I THINK THE GOVERNMENT ON THE LEGISLATIVE LEVEL AND THE EXECUTIVE LEVEL ARE SLOW TO REACT, IS THAT WE'RE NOT REALLY SEEING THE LAWS THAT WILL HELP TO CREATE A REAL SPACE FOR DRONES IN OUR AIR SPACES, IN OUR ECONOMY, ETC. SO WE'VE GOT THAT COMES UP. >> YEAH, THAT'S INTERESTING. AND FOR THE NEWS BUSINESS, AS WELL. WE'RE TRYING TO GET SOME CLARITY ON THAT, HOW TO USE DRONES. >> RIGHT. >> IT'S AN ISSUE THAT WE SEE AT THE BALLOON FIESTA, WHO WE WORK WITH, BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE PICTURES IN THE AIR, BUT IT'S A RESTRICTED AIR SPACE. >> I SEE. >> BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DRONE AIRCRAFT, IT'S REALLY NO STRANGER TO NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE OUT AT CANNON AIR FORCE BASE THEY HAVE THE RAPTOR AND PREDATOR PROGRAMS THAT HAVE BEEN BASED OUT THERE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK

IT'S A REAL NICHE AREA THAT NEW MEXICO HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY FOCUS ON. >> I READ AN ARTICLE, I THINK SOME FOLKS AT NEW MEXICO STATE WERE PROPOSING TO USE THEM TO FLY UP AND DOWN POWER LINES FOR INSPECTION. >> THAT'S INTERESTING. >> IT'S A BRILLIANT IDEA. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO PUT HUNDREDS OF MILES. YOU GET WHAT I MEAN. THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES. NOW, COMING UP, WE TALK TO FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS ABOUT WHEN WE MIGHT SEE A PLAN FOR CLEANING UP THE JET FUEL SPILL AT KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE. >> I BELIEVE THAT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS A FORM OF TORTURE, AND IT'S A FORM OF TORTURE THAT OUR PRISONS USE FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE PRISON SYSTEM AND NOT BECAUSE IT'S EFFICACIOUS IN TERMS OF RECIDIVISM, NOT BECAUSE IT MAKES A REAL DIFFERENCE. >> THIS WEEK, THE BERNALILLO COUNTY WATER UTILITY AUTHORITY BLASTED KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE FOR MOVING TOO SLOWLY TO ADDRESS A JET

FUEL SPILL THAT IS MOVING TOWARDS CITY WATER WELLS, AND THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT SHOT DOWN A PROPOSED PLAN BY THE AIR FORCE BECAUSE THEY SAID IT WOULD ACTUALLY MAKE THE SPILL WORSE. AT ISSUE IS ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE, OR EDB, A CHEMICAL ONCE USED AS A FUEL ADDITIVE THAT MAY CAUSE; CANCER. LAST YEAR THE AIR FORCE AND THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT AGREED TO HAVE AN INTERIM CLEAN-UP PLAN IN PLACE BY JUNE 30th. CORRESPONDENT FLOYD VASQUEZ SAT DOWN WITH THE AIR FORCE AND STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS TO FIND OUT WHEN THERE WILL BE A RESOLUTION TO THIS ISSUE. >> WE ARE JOINED TODAY BY COLONEL JEFFREY LANNING, COMMANDER OF THE 377th MISSION SUPPORT GROUP, ONE OF FOUR GROUPS AND 12 AGENCIES ATTACHED TO THE 377th AIR BASE WING WHICH GENERALLY PROVIDES INSTALLATION SUPPORT FOR ALL OF KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE. BERNALILLO COUNTY COMMISSIONER MAGGIE HART-STEBBINS, WHO IS ALSO VICE-CHAIR OF THE ALBUQUERQUE/BERNALILLO COUNTY WATER UTILITY AUTHORITY BOARD. COMMISSION HART-STEBBINS PARTICIPATED IN A NEWS CONFERENCE THIS WEEK ON THIS VERY TOPIC.

TOM BLAINE, DIRECTOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH DIVISION OF THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT OVERSEEING THE DRINKING WATER CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM, ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH AND HAZARDOUS WASTE BUREAUS. AND BRUCE THOMPSON, AN ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER WITH 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN WATER CHEMISTRY, GROUNDWATER HYDROLOGY, WATER AND WASTEWATER TREATMENT AND REMEDIATION. HE IS A RESEARCH PROFESSOR IN CIVIL ENGINEERING AT UNM, AND DESCRIBES HIMSELF AS A CONCERNED CITIZEN IN THIS MATTER. THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH FOR COLONEL LANNING, IT'S BEEN 15 YEARS SINCE THE AIR FORCE PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGED THE JET FUEL LEAK AND COMMITTED TO CLEANING IT UP. 15 YEARS. WE'VE HEARD THAT $50 MILLION HAS BEEN SPENT. WE'RE TOLD NO FUEL IS BEING REMOVED FROM THE GROUNDWATER, NO STEPS HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO HALT THE MOVEMENT OF THE PLUME, AND APPARENTLY NO CREDIBLE PLAN TO MOVE FORWARD HAS BEEN OFFERED. WHAT'S GOING ON? QUESTION THERE.

A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY. IT WAS 15 YEARS AGO THAT THIS WAS DISCOVERED. MUCH MORE THAN $50 MILLION HAS BEEN SPENT. $50 MILLION IS THE CONTRACT THAT'S BEEN IN PLACE SINCE 2010, SO FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS NOW. OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS IS WHEN WE PUT THAT CONTRACT IN PLACE. KEEP IN MIND, WHEN WE FIRST DISCOVERED THE FUEL PLUME AND THE FUEL LEAK, IT WAS THOUGHT TO JUST BE CONTAINED IN THE SOIL, AND IT WAS MANY YEARS LATER THAT WE DISCOVERED FREE PRODUCT ON THE WATER TABLE, WHICH INITIATED A NEW ROUND OF PERMITS AND A NEW CONTRACT THAT WAS PUT IN PLACE IN 2010. A WHOLE ARRAY OF MONITORING WELLS WERE PUT INTO PLACE. ACCORDING TO THE LAW, WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RESOURCE CONSERVATION RECOVERY ACT. THAT LAW REQUIRES US TO CHARACTERIZE THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM BEFORE WE CAN MOVE OUT ON CORRECTING THE PROBLEM. WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS MAKE SURE, LIKE THE HYPOCRITIC OATH, WE DO NO HARM, SO WE DON'T WANT TO GO IN AND

START STIRRING THINGS UP AND MAKE A PROBLEM WORSE. WE HAVE TO CHARACTERIZE AND UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM. WE SPENT TWO YEARS PUTTING IN A WHOLE LITANY OF MONITORING WELLS. WE HAVE OVER 400 WELLS IN PLACE TO MONITOR THE SOIL AND THE GROUNDWATER. NOW THAT WE HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING WITH ALL OF THOSE WELLS IN PLACE, NOW WE WANT TO TAKE SAMPLES, AND WE TAKES SAMPLES ON A QUARTERLY BASIS. THE EXCITING NEWS IS THAT AFTER WE'VE TAKEN ABOUT TWO YEARS WORTH OF DATA, WE WERE ABLE TO PRODUCE SOMETHING CALLED A RCRA FACILITIES INVESTIGATION REPORT. THOSE REPORTS GO TO THE REGULATOR AND ARE WHERE THE AIR FORCE SAYS, WE BELIEVE WE HAVE FULLY CHARACTERIZED THE NATURE OF THIS PROBLEM, AND WE WANT TO MOVE OUT ON A PLAN. SO BY LAW, WE CAN'T DEVELOP A FULL CORRECTIVE MEASURES PLAN UNTIL WE HAVE AN APPROVED RFI FROM THE REGULATOR, AND WE'RE AT THAT STAGE RIGHT NOW. WE'VE SUBMITTED THOSE DOCUMENTS. WHEN THE REGULATOR COMES BACK TO US WITH AN APPROVED RFI, WE'LL BE ABLE TO MOVE OUT AND DEVELOPING A FULL

LITANY OF CORRECTIVE MEASURES. IN THE MEANTIME, OF COURSE, WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON INTERIM MEASURES, AND THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN IN THE NEWS A LOT LATELY. >> WELL, LOOKING OVER THE INFORMATION ON THE SIZE OF THIS SPILL, THERE'S A WIDE RANGE OF DATA, SOME OF IT ATTRIBUTED TO THE AIR FORCE, AND SOME TO THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT. IN 2000, THE AIR FORCE SAID 157,000 GALLONS. IN 2008, ONE TO TWO MILLION GALLONS. IN 2010, EIGHT MILLION GALLONS. IN 2012, 24 MILLION. NOW I THINK WE'RE BACK TO SIX MILLION. WHY THE WIDE RANGE OF ESTIMATES? >> THAT GOES BACK TO THE DISCOVERY NATURE. THE CHARACTERIZATION, IF YOU WILL. SO EARLY ON IN 2000, AGAIN, WE THOUGHT THE SPILL WAS CONTAINED TO THE SOIL. ONCE WE UNDERSTOOD THAT WE HAD FREE PRODUCT ON THE WATER TABLE, THAT CHANGED THE CALCULUS THAT GOES INTO THE ESTIMATION. THE AIR FORCE NUMBERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT THE HIGH END. ABOUT EIGHT MILLION IS WHAT WE EXPECTED. WE HAD TO GO THROUGH THE CHARACTERIZATION PHASE TO COME UP WITH A MORE SOLID NUMBER.

WE COMPLETED THAT IN MARCH, AND THAT'S WHERE THE SIX MILLION FIGURE CAME FROM. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT THE AMOUNT OF GALLONS SPILLED DOES NOT DRIVE THE REMEDIATION PROCESS. WHAT DRIVES THE REMEDIATION PROCESS ARE THE CONTAMINANTS THAT ARE CONTAINED IN THE WATER, THE CONTAMINANTS CONTAINED IN THE SOIL. SO WE CONTINUE TO REMEDIATE UNTIL THOSE CONTAMINANTS HAVE BEEN REMOVED, NOT UNTIL WE PULL OUT OF THE GROUND OR OUT OF THE SOIL A SPECIFIC NUMBER OF GALLONS. >> OKAY. AND COULDN'T THIS HAVE BEEN DONE BY MATH? SAY, TAKING THE AMOUNT OF FUEL DELIVERED TO THE FUEL FACILITY AND SUBTRACTING THE VOLUME PUMPED INTO AIRPLANES? >> THIS SPANNED A LONG TIME. THIS LEAK PROBABLY GOES BACK INTO THE 1950s. UNFORTUNATELY, BACK IN THE '50s AND '60s, OUR ACCOUNTING METHODS FOR ACCOUNTING OF FUEL WAS NOT AS ROBUST AS IT IS TODAY. TODAY WE CAN TRACK THE AMOUNT OF FUEL ON THE INSTALLATION DOWN TO LESS THAN A TENTH OF A GALLON. KEEP IN MIND THAT BAROMETIC PRESSURES, ALL OF THOSE

THINGS CONTAIN THE AMOUNT OF FUEL THAT'S CONTAINED IN OUR FUEL TRUCKS, THAT'S CONTAINED IN OUR FUEL TANKS, THAT'S CONTAINED IN THE AIRPLANES. BACK IN THE DAY, WE HAD A SEVERAL MILLION GALLON STORAGE TANK, AND WE'D SEND A YOUNG AIRMAN UP TO THE TOP OF THAT TANK WITH A GIANT DIPSTICK, HE'D PUSH THAT DOWN INTO THE TANK, PULL IT UP, AND READ OFF THE NUMBER OF INCHES OF FUEL THAT WERE IN THAT TANK. BEING OFF BY A QUARTER OF AN INCH COULD BE OFF BY SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF GALLONS. SO THE OTHER PART OF THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE LEAK OCCURRED BETWEEN WHERE THE FUEL WAS OFF-LOADED AND BEFORE IT WENT THROUGH THE PUMPING HOUSE AND INTO THE STORAGE TANKS. SO THE ACCOUNTING METHODOLOGY REALLY BEGINS AS IT GOES THROUGH THE PUMP HOUSE AND INTO THE STORAGE TANKS. THE LEAK IN THAT LOCATION CREATED A SITUATION WHERE IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR US TO CAPTURE THE AMOUNT THAT WAS MISSING. >> OKAY. NOW, COMMISSIONER STEBBINS, THE GOVERNING BOARD OF THE WATER UTILITY AUTHORITY HAS BEEN MEETING ONCE A MONTH FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS.

LOOKING AT THE AGENDAS, IT LOOKS LIKE THE BOARD HAS BEEN BRIEFED ON A REGULAR BASIS BY OFFICIALS, BY COMMUNITY GROUPS. SO AFTER 15 YEARS, KIND OF THE SAME QUESTION: WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG FOR THE BOARD TO GET OUT IN THE PUBLIC AND SAY SOMETHING? >> WELL, I THINK I SPEAK FOR THAT WE CONSIDER PROBABLY ONE OF OUR PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITIES PROTECTING THE WATER SUPPLY. YOU KNOW, THE WATER THAT WILL EVENTUALLY BE DELIVERED TO OUR CUSTOMERS, THE RATEPAYERS. SO THIS HAS BEEN A PRIORITY ISSUE FOR THE WATER UTILITY, AND FOR ME, PERSONALLY, AT THE WATER UTILITY BOARD MEETINGS. SO WE HAVE BEEN BRIEFED. WE HAVE, FROM TIME TO TIME, I'D SAY ON A QUARTERLY BASIS, HAD THE AIR FORCE COME IN AND BRING US UP TO DATE ON WHAT THEY'RE DOING, THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT, AND WE HAVE HIRED OUR OWN INDEPENDENT ENVIRONMENTAL REMEDIATION EXPERT FIRM, ENTERRA, TO REVIEW EVERY BIT OF DATA THAT BECOMES AVAILABLE, TO GIVE US FEEDBACK, TO GIVE US

FEEDBACK ON WHAT THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT IS DOING, WHAT THE AIR FORCE IS DOING, AND COME UP WITH REALLY, WHERE NECESSARY, RECOMMENDATIONS AND SECOND OPINIONS. SO WE FEEL WE'VE BEEN VERY ENGAGED. IT'S A DIFFICULT SITUATION FOR US, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT PART OF THE REGULATORY PROCESS. WE REALLY REPRESENT THE WATER USERS, THE RATEPAYERS, OUR CONSTITUENTS, THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED US. SO WE TAKE THIS VERY SERIOUSLY, AND WE HAVE. WE DON'T DO PRESS CONFERENCES, WE DON'T -- WE HAVE NOT MADE A BIG DEAL IN THE PUBLIC ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING. YOU'D REALLY HAVE TO ATTEND THE MEETINGS OR WATCH THE MEETINGS ON TELEVISION. BUT WE HAVE BEEN VERY CAREFULLY WATCHING THIS PROCESS AND MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS WHERE POSSIBLE, AND WE FEEL THAT WE ALL HAVE THE SAME END GOAL, I THINK, THE AIR FORCE, THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT, THE WATER UTILITY, AND WHAT WE WANT IS COMPLETE REMEDIATION. WE WANT TO PROTECT THAT SOURCE OF WATER, BECAUSE THE

BURTON WELL FIELD, THE RIDGECREST, THOSE TWO WELLS, THOSE WELL FIELDS, ACCESS THE MOST PRODUCTIVE PUREST WATER THAT WE HAVE, AND SO IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO US THAT IT BE PROTECTED, AND THAT HAS BEEN OUR END GOAL. AND AGAIN, WE HAVE REALLY LOOKED AT THIS AS A COLLABORATIVE RELATIONSHIP WHERE WE PROVIDE INFORMATION AND SUPPORT WHEREVER WE CAN, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE WE ALL HAVE THE SAME END GOAL - PROTECTING THAT WATER. >> WELL, WHY THE PRESS CONFERENCE THIS WEEK? >> BECAUSE I THINK THE PUBLIC NEEDED TO BE REASSURED THAT THE WATER UTILITY WAS TAKING THESE ACTIONS, AND I THINK THAT'S NUMBER ONE. WE PROBABLY MADE THE MISTAKE IN ASSUMING THAT EVERYBODY READ THE JOURNAL, THAT EVERYBODY WATCHED OUR MEETINGS. AND THERE WAS SOME DISCOMFORT IN THE COMMUNITY THAT PERHAPS THE WATER UTILITY WASN'T BEING AS AGGRESSIVE AS WE SHOULD BE. THE SECOND PART OF THAT WAS, THERE DOES STILL SEEM TO BE IDEAS OUT IN THE COMMUNITY,

PERHAPS IN THE REMEDIATION PROCESS, THAT A FINAL REMEDIATION DECISION WOULD BE THAT OUR PRODUCTION WELLS BE USED FOR THE REMEDIATION PROCESS, WHICH WOULD MEAN THE ASSUMPTION WAS EDB, WHICH IS ONE OF THE DISSOLVED PHASED CHEMICALS, THAT IT WOULD BE OKAY THAT THAT REACH THE MOST PRODUCTIVE PART OF OUR AQUIFER. AND THE WATER UTILITY HAS SAID THIS REPEATEDLY, WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT SHOULD HAPPEN, AND WE WANTED TO MAKE A VERY PUBLIC STATEMENT. WE WANT EVERY EFFORT TAKEN TO MAKE SURE THAT EDB DOES NOT REACH THAT PART OF THE AQUIFER. IT REPRESENTS 20% OF OUR GROUNDWATER SUPPLY, AND I THINK ANYBODY WHO LIVES IN NEW MEXICO KNOWS THAT WATER IS ALREADY IN SHORT SUPPLY. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S PROTECTED, AND SO WE WANTED TO MAKE A VERY PUBLIC STATEMENT THAT THAT IS OUR END GOAL, THAT HOWEVER THIS REMEDIATION PROCESS IS DONE, THAT THERE IS A REAL FOCUS MADE ON PROTECTING THE WATER THAT IS IN THAT PART OF THE AQUIFER.

>> AND BRIEFLY, IS THE WATER SAFE NOW? >> THE WATER IS SAFE, AND THAT IS ONE THING THE AIR FORCE AND THE WATER UTILITY HAS. WE HAVE VERY SENSITIVE MONITORING, OR MONITORS, I SHOULD SAY, ON THE PRODUCTION WELLS, SO IF THERE WERE ANY INDICATION THAT EDB HAD REACHED THOSE WELLS, WE WOULD KNOW, AND THEY WOULD BE SHUT DOWN IMMEDIATELY. WE HAVE ALSO WORKED WITH THE U.S. GEOLOGICAL SERVICE. THE WATER UTILITY PAID FOR ITS OWN WELL, WHICH IS BETWEEN THE KNOWN EDGE OF THE PLUME AND THE PRODUCTION WELLS, THAT WOULD GIVE US EARLY WARNING. SO AGAIN, VERY SENSITIVE MONITORING GOING ON THAT WOULD GIVE US AN EARLY WARNING IF EDB HAD REACHED THAT AREA BETWEEN THE WELLS AND THE KNOWN EDGE OF THE PLUME. >> OKAY. NOW, MR. BLAINE, IN 2008 THE RICHARDSON ADMINISTRATION TRIED TO KIND OF PUT THE PRESSURE ON THE AIR FORCE TO STEP IT UP, AND THEN IN APRIL 2010, ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS ACCUSED THE AIR FORCE OF DRAGGING THEIR FEET

ON WHAT THEY CALLED 'A SIGNIFICANT THREAT TO HUMAN HEALTH AND THE ENVIRONMENT.' AND THEN CAME GOVERNOR MARTINEZ, WHO IN 2011 PRAISED THE AIR FORCE FOR ITS CLEAN-UP EFFORTS AND SIGNALED A KINDER, GENTLER APPROACH TO DEALING WITH THE PLUME. IN A LETTER TO A TOP AIR FORCE OFFICIAL, SHE WROTE: 'I APPLAUD YOUR PERFORMANCE-BASED REMEDIATION APPROACH THAT ALLOWS FOR THE MOST EFFECTIVE CLEAN-UP IN THE SHORTEST TIMEFRAME.' SO, SAME QUESTION. IT'S BEEN 15 YEARS, CONTAMINATED WATER IS NOT BEING REMOVED, THE DRIFT OF THE PLUME IS NOT BEING STOPPED, AND APPARENTLY THERE ARE NO CREDIBLE PLANS TO DO SO, AND YOUR AGENCY HAS JURISDICTION. SO, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? >> IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY, IN THE PAST, BECAUSE WE ARE A NEW ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS TAKEN THIS CONTAMINATION VERY SERIOUSLY.

THERE'S PROCESSES THAT YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH TO GET FROM DISCOVERY TO REMEDIATION, AND THOSE PROCESSES DO TAKE TIME. YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE CHARACTER -- YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHARACTERIZE THE EXTENT OF THE CONTAMINATION IN THE GROUNDWATER. IDENTIFYING WHAT THAT CONTAMINATION LOOKS LIKE IN THE GROUNDWATER IS VERY DIFFICULT, BECAUSE YOU'RE TAKING A VERY SMALL SAMPLE OF THE VERY LARGE AQUIFER WHEN YOU DRILL A WELL. YOU JUST GET -- IT'S LIKE VIEWING THE WORLD THROUGH A SODA STRAW. IT'S VERY HARD TO GET A FULL PICTURE. AND SO IT TAKES TIME TO DEVELOP WHERE YOU NEED TO DRILL YOUR WELLS AND WHAT THE BEST POSSIBLE REMEDIATION IS GOING TO BE FOR THE SYSTEM. NOW, WHEN SECRETARY FLYNN WAS APPOINTED AS A CABINET SECRETARY, HE ASKED ME IF I

WOULD TAKE THIS PROJECT ON, AND I ACCEPTED THE CHALLENGE FROM AN ENGINEERING STANDPOINT. HISTORICALLY IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, SCIENTISTS THAT HAVE OVERSEEN THE PROJECT, AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS IS, YOU KNOW, SCIENTISTS MAY WANT TO BE VERY PRECISE IN THINGS, ENGINEERS WANT TO GET IN AND DO SOMETHING, LOOK AT THE RESULTS, AND MOVE FORWARD. OUR OBJECTIVE IS TO MOVE THIS PROJECT FORWARD AT THE QUICKEST RATE POSSIBLE WHILE BEING SENSITIVE TO THE AQUIFER CHARACTERIZATION, TO THE EFFECTS OF A REMEDIATION PROGRAM, LOOKING AT ALL OF THE ASPECTS OF THIS REMEDIATION. SO IT IS OUR CHALLENGE TO MOVE THIS TO A REMEDIATION PHASE AS QUICKLY AS

POSSIBLE. WHEN YOU SAY WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN TO MOVE FORWARD, WE DO. THE PLAN IS COMPRISED OF THREE ELEMENTS. IDENTIFYING AND REMEDIATING PART OF THE SOIL VAPOR, THAT'S THE FUEL THAT'S TRAPPED IN THE ZONE BETWEEN THE SURFACE AND THE GROUNDWATER TABLE. REMEDIATING THE FUEL THAT IS IN THE GROUNDWATER, OR FLOATING ON TOP OF THE GROUNDWATER, AND THAT PORTION OF THE PLUME THAT IS THE ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE, OR EDB PLUME, WHICH IS THE DISSOLVED PHASE OUT OF THE FUEL. THOSE ARE TREATED AS THREE SEPARATE PROJECTS AND THREE SEPARATE TASKS, AND WE HAVE IDENTIFIED GOALS AND

REQUIREMENTS THAT THE AIR FORCE HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN MEETING SO FAR TO TAKE US THROUGH THE INTERIM MEASURES, WHICH IS PART OF THE RESOURCE CONSERVATION RECOVERY ACT, RCRA PROCESS. >> OKAY. WELL, ABOUT A WEEK AGO, THE DEPARTMENT RESPONDED TO A PROPOSAL BY THE AIR FORCE TO INCREASE PUMPING ON ONE OF THE BASES DRINKING WATER WELLS TO TRY TO DIVERT THE UNDERGROUND FLOW OF THE CONTAMINATION. RUNNING SHORT ON TIME, SO QUICKLY, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT PLAN? >> THE PLAN WOULD, IN ESSENCE, ALLOW UNCONTAMINATED PORTIONS OF THE AQUIFER TO BE CONTAMINATED WITH ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE, AND USE THE EXISTING WELL AS A SINK FOR A CAPTURE OF THAT ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE. THAT WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT.

OUR MISSION STATEMENT IS TO PROTECT AND RESTORE THE ENVIRONMENT, AND THAT DID NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS. IT NEITHER PROTECTED THE UNCONTAMINATED PORTIONS OF THE AQUIFER, NOR DID IT RESTORE THE AQUIFER, OR REMEDIATE ANY OF THE PROBLEM IN THE SHORT-TERM. AND THAT IS PART OF OUR CHARGE, IS TO ENSURE THAT WE PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND WE PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT. >> OKAY. PROFESSOR THOMPSON, IN YOUR VIEW, IS THIS AN EMERGENCY? >> NO, IT'S NOT AN EMERGENCY. BUT WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE, THOSE CONTAMINANTS, THAT PLUME, HAS BEEN IN THE GROUNDWATER FOR AT LEAST 40 YEARS. THE PRINCIPLE CONTAMINATE IS ETHYLENE DIBROMIDE, EDB, THE PRINCIPAL CONTAMINANT OF CONCERN, AND THAT'S A CONSTITUENT OF AVIATION

GASOLINE. AVIATION GASOLINE HAS NOT BEEN DELIVERED TO THE AIR FORCE SINCE THE MID '70s. SO WE'VE GOT A VERY LARGE PLUME, IT'S ABOUT 6000 FEET LONG AND 1000 FEET WIDE, 60-70 FEET DEEP, BUT IT'S FAIRLY WELL CHARACTERIZED AT PRESENT, IT'S NOT MOVING VERY FAST, AND THERE IS AN EXTENSIVE BUFFER BETWEEN THE HEAD OF THE PLUME AND THE NEAREST DRINKING WATER SUPPLY WELL. A NUMBER OF GROUNDWATER MODELS AND OTHER CALCULATIONS HAVE BEEN DONE TO TRY TO DETERMINE HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE BEFORE THE NEAREST WELLS ARE IMPACTED, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TWO, THREE OR FOUR DECADES. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT EDB THAT WE WERE TOLD RECENTLY IS THAT JUST ONE-HALF TEASPOON COULD CONTAMINATE 13 MILLION GALLONS OF WATER. IS THAT TRUE? >> I HAVEN'T DONE THE CALCULATION, BUT I ASSUME IT IS. THE THING IS, YOU DON'T HAVE

VERY GOOD MIXING IN AN AQUIFER. THERE HAVE BEEN CONCERNS THAT IT WOULD CONTAMINATE THE ENTIRE AQUIFER. AN AQUIFER IS VERY CONSTRAINED. THE HYDRAULIC PROPERTIES ARE SUCH THAT THE MOLECULES THAT ARE INTRODUCED IN ONE LOCATION DON'T MIX WITH MOLECULES MIXED IN ANOTHER LOCATION. SO THIS PLUME, AS I SAID BEFORE, IS FAIRLY WELL CONFINED. IT'S MOVING PERHAPS 100 FEET A YEAR, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO CONTAMINATE THE ENTIRE GROUNDWATER SUPPLY FOR THE MUNICIPAL AREA. >> OKAY. COULD ANYTHING HAPPEN THAT COULD CHANGE THE STATUS OF THE PLUME? MAYBE IT'S AN EARTHQUAKE, MAYBE IT'S A PLANE CRASH, SOMETHING THAT WE'RE NOT COUNTING ON THAT COULD FUNDAMENTALLY SHIFT THE SCENARIO THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. >> IT'S INCONCEIVABLE TO ME. REMEMBER, THIS PLUME IS VERY DEEP. IT'S ALMOST 500 FEET BELOW

THE EARTH'S SURFACE. SO ANY SURFACE ACTIVITIES WILL NOT HAVE AN IMPACT. IT'S A TYPE OF FORMATION -- FIRST OF ALL, WE ARE IN A VERY LOW EARTHQUAKE ZONE, SEISMIC ZONE, AND IT'S A TYPE OF FORMATION THAT IS NOT PRONE TO FRACTURES AND FAULTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO THE FACT THAT IT'S BEEN THERE FOR AT LEAST 40 YEARS AND HAS NOT SPREAD ANY FURTHER THAN IT HAS -- AND, IN FACT, THE TYPE OF SCENARIO THAT WOULD LEAD TO A CATASTROPHIC EVENT RESULTING IN CONTAMINATION OF ONE OF THE DOWN GRADIENT WELLS IS NOT IN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. >> COLONEL LANNING, IN RECENT INTERVIEWS AND SORT OF MESSAGING, YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM IS RED TAPE, REVIEW AND APPROVAL, WORK PERMITS. CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THE AIR FORCE EFFORTS HAVE BEEN STYMIED BY SUCH RULES, REGULATIONS OR PROCESS? >> I WOULDN'T SAY THAT OUR

PROGRESS HAS BEEN STYMIED, IT'S JUST THE NATURE OF DEALING WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE LAW; RCRA. THERE ARE STEPS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN. THERE IS A DESIRE FOR, GIVE US THE PLAN, WHAT'S THE PLAN FOR THE FULL CLEAN-UP. WELL, THAT PLAN HAS TO COME AFTER WE HAVE CHARACTERIZED AND PROVIDED INFORMATION TO THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT. THE PLAN THAT WAS REJECTED OR DISPROVED RECENTLY BY THE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT ACTUALLY WAS NEVER PROPOSED BY THE AIR FORCE TO THE DEPARTMENT. IT WAS A CONCEPT THAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED, BUT HAD NOT ACTUALLY BEEN PROPOSED. THAT DID NOT COME THROUGH THE AIR FORCE CHANNELS, HADN'T BEEN SIGNED OFF AND SUBMITTED.

BUT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED. AND STILL, WE'RE PRESERVING THAT OPTION. IF THE PLUME SHOULD MOVE AT A VERY AGGRESSIVE RATE, IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO HAVE THAT PUMPING OPTION IN THAT PARTICULAR LOCATION AND TO TURN IT ON. TO TURN IT ON AT THIS POINT IN TIME DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, BUT IT WOULD MAKE SENSE FURTHER ON DOWN THE ROAD. JUST TO DO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS -- AND IF YOU'RE GOING TO PULL WATER OUT OF THE GROUND THAT HAS CONTAMINANTS IN IT, NOW YOU'RE DEALING WITH A HAZARDOUS WASTE. WE HAVE AN AWFUL LOT OF RULES THAT DEAL WITH WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH A HAZARDOUS WASTE. PERMITS NEED TO BE APPLIED FOR. REGULATIONS NEED TO BE FOLLOWED. AND THOSE ARE ALL GOOD. THEY'RE NOT THE THINGS THAT ARE STYMIEING OUR PROCESS, BUT THEY ARE THERE TO ENSURE THAT WE DON'T DO ANY HARM AND THAT THE WATER THAT IS BEING PROVIDED TO THE PUBLIC IS SAFE AND REMAINS SAFE. >> MR. BLAINE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT HAS THE ABILITY TO ASSESS FINES, AND THAT WE'RE COMING UP ON A DEADLINE. I THINK THE FINE WAS $10,000 A DAY. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S LIKELY TO HAPPEN IN THE NEAR FUTURE? >> WE ARE WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE AIR FORCE TO ENSURE THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN. WE ARE WORKING WITH THEIR CONTRACTOR TO DEVELOP A PATH FORWARD THAT WILL MOVE THIS TO REMEDIATION. OUR PURPOSE ISN'T TO FINE. THAT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE,

AS FAR AS WE'RE CONCERNED. BUT IT IS LEVERAGE AND A TOOL THAT WE HAVE THAT WE WILL USE TO ENCOURAGE MOVEMENT OF THIS REMEDIATION. >> OKAY. WELL, THANK YOU AGAIN, EVERYONE, FOR BEING HERE. DISCUSSION ON THE WEB. AND IT'S BEEN A GOOD TALK. >> AS ALWAYS, ALL OF US HERE AT NEW MEXICO InFOCUS APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND YOUR EFFORT TO STAY INFORMED AND ENGAGED. CATCH UP WITH US ANY TIME ON SOCIAL MEDIA BY SEARCHING NEW MEXICO InFOCUS, AND YOU CAN FIND ARCHIVED INTERVIEWS AND BONUS MATERIAL FROM OUR SHOWS ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AND AT NewMexicoInFocus.org. I'M GENE GRANT. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK