In Black America; Rich Benjamin

From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. What first brought me to write this book is the statistic that has been making headlines across the U.S. and that is by 2042 white folks will no longer be the majority. And that's causing some anxiety in pockets of America, so that led me to the idea of white-topia and that led me to live in these communities because I didn't just want to sit in New York City and pull this out of my rear and you know hypothesize I had to live there for two years and see firsthand what was going on. Rich Benjamin, author of Searching for White Topia and improbable journey to the heart of white America published by Hyperion Books. With the historic election of Barack Obama as the nation's first African-American president,

new polls suggest that America, particularly white America, now believes racism is not a big deal anymore, but a disturbing trend indicates that the nation is as segregated now as it was in the 1970s and the problem is growing. As immigrant populations, large people of color, increase in cities and suburbs, more and more whites are moving to predominantly small white towns and expert areas. Benjamin traveled over 26,000 miles and spent two and a half years living and studying the fastest growing in white communities in this country to explore how white America's year graphically separating itself from the rest of the country. The journey took him to a three day white supremacist retreat with links to Arabian nation and North Idaho to the inner sanctum of George W. Bush's White House and many points in between. Benjamin found that while interpersonal racism is declining, structural racism, institutional policies and behavior that perpetuate racial segregation and inequality is on the rise.

I'm John L. Hanson, Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. From this week's program, searching for white topia with rich Benjamin in Black America. I really didn't know what to expect. I mean, I grew up in a pretty traditional inner ring suburb, IE suburb that's close to a major city, but I'd never grew up in a place like Idaho or Utah, so I didn't know what to expect. Coming out, I did learn that these are personal places I felt for the most part, warmly received, and what the journey taught me is what happens in terms of government policy or the behavior of private businesses that can keep this country segregated. A prediction that made headlines across this country a decade ago at fast becoming reality by 2046, whites will no longer be the American majority. In 2007 and 2009, rich Benjamin packed his bags and embarked on a 26,000 mile journey

throughout the heart of white America through some of the fastest growing and whitest counties and metropolitan areas in the country. Benjamin called these communities white topia to learn what make white topia's tick and how and why they are growing. He lived in them. Utah, Georgia, Idaho, and even parts of Manhattan's Upper East Side. In his book, which is about our nation's future and not about how African-Americans and whites are getting along, he reveals what white topia are like and explores the urgent social and political implications of this starting phenomena. The historic 2008 election of the first African-American president, argues Benjamin, should not obscure the racial and economic segregation still vexing America. Obama's presidency, moreover, raises the stakes in the struggle between two versions of America. One that is broadly comfortable with diversity yet residentially segregated and one that does not mind a little ethnic food as long as these trends do not overwhelm the white

dominant culture. The housing, social, lifestyle, and demographic trends Benjamin reveals are here for a long haul. Americans now have the chance to learn about and address these developments. Benjamin is a senior fellow at demos, a non-partisan national think tank based in New York City. His social and political commentaries is featured in major newspapers nationwide on NPR and Fox radio and in many scholarly publications. He holds a BA degree in political science from Weston and University and a PhD in modern thought and literature from Stanford University. Recently, in black America spoke with Rich Benjamin. I selected them strictly through numbers, so the back of the book includes every white opia in America and their nine pages worth of itopias, and so the numbers selected the whiteopia themselves. If the county made those criteria, it's included.

But I lived in three of them, quarterly in Utah, excuse me, quarterly in Idaho, Saint George, Utah, and Forsyth County, Georgia, and I lived in those three communities for three and a half to four months each. Now one would not think that there would be a whiteopia in New York City. One would not, but there is, and that surprised me. Tell us how that revelation surprised you. Well, because it surprised me. It is. New York City has a neighborhood called Carnegie Hill, and in one of the most diverse cities in the world, New York City is only 47% non-Hispanic white. But we have this neighborhood, Carnegie Hill, that is 91% non-Hispanic white. So that's neighborhood in New York City, as white as Utah, Idaho. I understand.

And of the cities in which you immersed yourself in, were there any particular way you went about conducting yourself that you informed the people what you were doing and what you were trying to accomplish living with among them? I did. I did. I let them know what I was up to. The title of the book hadn't been decided at the point that I was living in these communities. And I just went about my daily life, and they went about their daily life. There was a lot of socializing, a lot of interaction. I did a lot of golfing, hunting, and fishing. I went to a lot of churches. I went to a lot of community meetings, like the local Republican groups, the, quote, illegal immigration groups, the tax groups, and so forth. Other than the communities being 99.9% white, were there any consistencies other than the color of the residents?

I think so. I think so. I think one consistency across the white topias was their natural resources. So that means nice lakes, access to nice mountains, or nice desert vistas, biking trails, walking trails, so the natural surroundings being beautiful. That's one consistency. Another consistency is that all of them have a class dynamic. In other words, they're mostly well-to-do, well-heeled white folks, but they also have working class white folks who are busting a hump trying to survive in these white topias because they're more often than not quite expensive to live in. You mentioned you hadn't come up with the title of the book, White Topia, when you were interviewing and living amongst these individuals in these communities. How did you come up with the title?

Well, these places, they really have a utopian quality to them and they're white. So the word white topia felt like the perfect word to capture what was going on. The journey felt improbable to me because there are parts of it, for example, sitting in on the white separatist retreat that I wouldn't have believed were going to happen when I set out on the journey. How long did you immerse yourself in this culture, or are you still immersed in the culture? I left white topia since, but I would say two years from 2007 to 2009. What was your expectations, you know, one will have an idea of what it would be like, but your expectations going in and the reality coming out? Well, I really didn't know what to expect.

I mean, I grew up in a pretty traditional inner ring suburb, IE a suburb that's close to a major city, but I'd never grew up in a place like Idaho or Utah. So I didn't know what to expect. Coming out, I did learn that these are personal places I felt for the most part, warmly received, and what the journey taught me is what happens in terms of government policy or the behavior of private businesses that can keep this country segregated. My question, well, my thought after reading a book, and the first thing after I read the book that came to mind is how did the individual find these places? How did the individual, well, that's fascinating. I think they find it through word of mouth, they've known a friend or a coworker or a family member who's retired there or moved there, or they find out about these places through

best place to live lists. Sometimes you're on your internet web browser and it'll pop up at you. The best place to live, the best place to retire. So that's another way they find out about it. And finally, people find out about it by census data. What came to mind, I think when I was reading it, and it may just be me, I thought about cop town, what was the movie The Best of Salon started in when all these officers moved to this city in Jersey. But in your book, you had a number of Southern California police officers that moved to Northern Idaho. I did. And I haven't seen cop town, but I actually put it on my Netflix queue. Yes, a lot of cops, at least 500, have moved from Southern California to North Idaho and the most famous of those cops is Mark Furman of the OJ Simpson notoriety.

And I spent some time with these cops and they have this tight knit community where they fish together, where they have potluck suppers and bowling nights. And you know, this is their word, they said Southern California is a jungle and they're glad to be retired to North Idaho in all its beauty. Now when you read the book, I mean, you read about the pristine areas in which these individuals are living in, they don't have to lock the doors to a certain extent, the children are safe after school, and they don't have to worry about them. And that is basically the underlying American dream. So the question is, are these individuals moving to these towns because cities and suburbs have gotten so dangerous other than the racial aspects that these towns are 99.9% white? Is it more of the reaching the American dream and having a safe place for the families

versus trying to escape immigration and people of color? It's both, it's both. There is a small minority who told me to my face, we're trying to escape people of color and immigrants. However, the bigger majority said, this is our American dream. You know, we would like neighborly, comfortable communities that maintain our property values. And what's interesting is those qualities, neighborliness, comfort, safety, pleasantness are associated in many Americans' mind with whiteness itself. So if you have those qualities, many whites just assume that the neighborhood will be white without even giving in a second thought. Why did you begin the book with St. George Utah? Tell us about St. George Utah.

St. George is beautiful. If you can just imagine the red rocks of the Grand Canyon, that's the backdrop of this town. It's full of red rocks, it's a desert setting, it's warm, it has 300 sunny days of the year. And it's, it's just, so anyway, I began my journey in St. George Utah, I spent three and a half months there along the journey. When you went to an editor broaching this concept and idea, what was the reaction? People in America don't want to talk about race. People in America don't want to talk about segregation. Other editors said, what happens if Barack Obama wins the election, then we won't race

won't be an issue anymore because we have a black president. And so therefore, it undercuts you. But apparently, with all the reception the book has received, they turned out to be wrong. You speaking editors were nervous, were you nervous going into these 99% white communities? I was not nervous, no. Why not? Because, I mean, why should I be, it, you know, I'm just living there, I'm just seeing how folks are going to live. I'm full, I heard you, I didn't feel nervous for my physical safety. And beyond that, what should I worry about? Now, these individuals living in these communities, are they commuting or by and large of these retired individuals for both? Both, both. In many cases, they're retired, they've retired to these communities. And in many more cases, they're young families with kids who are living in these communities

full-time. Obviously, as you express with the title, Wattopia, this is a utopia in type of situation, how are they going about maintaining these communities? Are there covenants, clauses, or whatever, to keep it the way it currently is? Well, in this day and age, they don't have restrictive covenants that say brown and black people cannot move in. Now it's become more subtle income, income is a big thing, zoning is a big thing. Many of these communities are zoned in such a way that you can't build rental units and you can't build apartment complexes. Some of these communities say, we are going to zone this place in a way that you can only build a house on a one acre plot. That's another way.

And some of these communities are actively involved in what they call the illegal immigration movement. So they say, look, we came from Tucson, we came from Phoenix, and immigration has ruined those cities, unless you want this whiteopia to be like Phoenix or Tucson or much of Texas, you've got to keep active to fight illegal immigration. Also in the book there's a new term and is now becoming more talk to about, you say ex-burbs, they're not suburbs anymore, they're ex-burbs. Yes, sir. Explain that. They're a little further out distance-wise than the city. So the way I explain it, you have a city, you have an inner suburb, then further out, you have the established suburb, and even further out you have the exurb, and the way I describe the exurb is country living with suburban perks. How are the school systems in these communities?

And where do they find the administrators and teachers of these educational institutions? Boy, that question feels real on point to me because the school systems are very good, but in some cases they have a difficult time finding these administrators and these teachers you're talking about, because administrators and teachers can't afford to live in these communities. Right. So in St. George, Utah for example, I heard complaints, how are we going to recruit teachers? Teachers can't even afford to live here. Once one has read this book, what do you want to come away with? I do think the first is by 2042 white people will no longer be the majority in America, and in Texas they are already not the majority. So the first thing I'd like people to come away with is we got to look at this, we got to talk about this, we got to do something about this because come 2042, we don't want

a segregated, vulcanized country that doesn't come together. I think as America, we can do better than that. Is there any particular point in an individual's life that becomes this inclusion that we just can't take this anymore, we need to find another place to live? Yes, just talking to folks in these white opios, I discovered two things. People move there at two points in their life that become popular. The first is when they have young kids, and the second is when they retire, and that is because young kids and older folks require sort of emotional comfort and security, and a physical security is two vulnerable stages in your life. So that's when the draw or the lure of white topia becomes most attractive. How did the U.S. government help create and maintain all white communities or have they?

I feel they have, I think after World War II, in the 1950s, President Dwight Eisenhower helped build our highway system. He built home ownership policies that favored white suburbanites, and that favored the slight from cities of many middle-class white folks to the suburbs. By itself that wouldn't be a bad thing, except brown people and black people and Asians were excluded from that, and we're still dealing with the consequences of that and how we build communities. Having emerged yourself in these communities, and I want to talk about one other community that's sending this out, but having emerged yourself in these communities, did you find yourself or thinking that what these individuals are searching for is something that I, myself, would be searching for?

Yes, I did, but I wouldn't be searching there, that's the difference. I think many of the things folks are searching for are admirable. The question is, where do you find them? And by and large, when people of color leave the inner city in middle-class fight, they're moving to integrated suburbs, as opposed to all black suburbs or all Latino suburbs. And as you make that statement, could there be an all black, black topia or Latino topia or things of that nature? Is that possible? It's possible, but there aren't many in the country. Let's talk about your experience in 4-site Georgia. Okay. County Georgia. I spent some time in Forsyth County, Georgia. Forsyth County is an hour north of Atlanta in what's fascinating to me about Forsyth County is Atlanta's chocolate city, Atlanta is a minority white city, but if you just

travel up the road an hour, you'll find this white topia. I assume these individuals are escaping Atlanta for its salvation other than Atlanta being 95.5% African-American now. Yes. And one thing I talk about is there's a push and a pull. I think the push is white flight. People tell me, experts tell me, in Forsyth County, that yes, part of the reason Forsyth County is growing is good old-fashioned white flight from Atlanta and its browning suburbs. However, it's not just the push, it's the pull. White County is charming enough with enough resources and good qualities that it's attracting folks to. Obviously, you learned a great deal about this country and the people that are living in these communities.

What did you learn about yourself during this experience? The experience humanized me. I mean, sometimes I get into this really aggressive work mode where I just see myself as a journalist in the scholar, and I'm going to go in, I'm going to get the information, and I'm just a blank wall. But sometimes when people react to you as a human being, I eat when they scold you, when they hug you, when they make fun of you, when they have you to dinner, it reminded me of my own humanity, and that caught me off guard. Sometimes I made me uncomfortable because I'm not a touchy-feely person. So I learned a lot about my own personality, my own class identity, my own skin color, frankly. And other things. And I'm glad you mentioned that once you've explained to the individuals in these communities what you were trying to achieve, their reaction and wanting to tell their story. There's mixed reaction to people in the community.

Many, like you point out, did want to tell their story, and they wanted to say, hey, you know, this is why we come here, this is what we found, this is what it's like. And not everyone had a positive reaction, though. Many didn't. Any final comments, Mr. Benjamin? I just hope people enjoy the book. It's one sort of lesson on how our country is and how it could be if we don't think carefully. But other than that, it's just a travelogue. It's just, you know, come journey with me, and it's just a bumpy ride to see what America is in 2009. Do you think once one has read this book or found out about the book that many may be moving to these particular white topias? Unfortunately, yes. I think there's folks who would read this and say, okay, I got to go, there you go. What has been the reaction thus far from the book? Some people have thanked me for writing about it.

They care about integration. People of all ages, races, socioeconomic groups have said, wow, I did not know this is fascinating. Now there's a couple of ordinary white separatists and white supremacists who are emailing me. And once said, well, thank you for writing a retirement guide. I'll buy the book, find out what the whitest communities in America are. And you've done my research for me. And what has been a response from your colleagues at demos? They're happy. My colleagues at demos work on how to improve our economy and how to improve our democracy. So they tell me they're happy to have a book that shows us why economic and racial immigration, excuse me, economic and racial integration are important to a democracy and a good economy. Now back at the book, there are the 286 U.S. counties in 39 metropolitan areas. And I guess as we speak, numbers will be added to those entities.

I think so, I think so. We've been speaking with Rich Benjamin, author of the compelling and insightful book entitled Searching for Wytopia and then probable journey to the heart of white America. Any utopia, white utopia part two coming up or revisited after so many years? I think that's a good idea. I really think I should give this five years and do some follow up at that point and see what has changed. Because in five years, we will be at a different place. We will have had a one term minimum black president. We may or may not have had immigration reform. So I should take you up on that, is to do a five year follow up. Rich Benjamin, author of Searching for White Topia. If you have questions, comments or suggestions asked your future in black America programs, email us at lowercasejhansenhansen at kut.org.

Also let us know what radio station you heard us over. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Averis, I'm John L. Hansen Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing in black America CDs. KUT Radio. One university station, Austin, Texas, 78712, that's in black America CDs, KUT Radio. One university station, Austin, Texas, 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.