Report from Santa Fe; Misty Lee

The National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by a grant from the Healey Foundation, Taos, New Mexico. Hello, I'm Lorraine Mills, and welcome to Report from Santa Fe. We have a magical experience for you. My favorite magician, Misty Lee, is here. Good morning, Lorraine. How are you? Oh, I'm just fine. You have been in Santa Fe, performing at the Jean Cocteau Cinema, doing workshops where kids leave with their eyes, just full of magic, and then delighting all of us with your adventures. You are not only a magician, you're a science magician at the Magic Castle. The private club for magicians, we'll talk about later, but the state of the art, you're

also a voice artist. Yes. Sixty, tell me about the voice art. I have been doing video games and cartoons for years. I'm very fortunate. And I play a lot of soldiers. I'm Lady Leadron and World of Warcraft. I played Princess Leia in Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2. I have been a very lucky girl. Yes, yes. You also do some writing, don't you? I do, I have. I'm married to a writer, and he and I have partnered up on a couple of comic book stories. We did background story advising for some Scooby-Doo cartoons, and we have a lot of fun. Well, how did you get into magic? Oh, I started out as the girl inside the box, and that job is awful, so I just took his. And now I have girls that love the job. And so we have this wonderful team of people who are doing exactly what they want to do. Yeah. Yeah. So, you are now the first female full-time staff magician at the Magic Castle medium. And you're doing the famous Houdini Sands. Yes.

So, I'd like to look at the history of professional magicians, and women rising to the top, is it pretty much a male field or has it in? Everybody thinks that it's a male-dominated field, but when they say it's a male-dominated field, they ignore the incredibly successful women that have come along. We had Princess Tenko, who had her own animated series, even here in the States, although she was from Asia. We have had Adelaide Herman, who traveled and toured with vaudeville shows, and she was incredibly successful, more so than many other fellows. So we've had several very, very powerful, very successful female magicians, but somehow their history just gets lost. They're around. So, let's fight to keep them at the forefront. You bet. You said that magic for you is like a tick, it's dug in, and it won't let go. But is there any reason, was there ever been a reason for you to leave magic? Your arc is so phenomenal what you're doing in your profession. Well, you're very kind.

Thank you. It isn't easy. And when I studied improv at the Second City, which I did for several years, I thought, boy, it's nice to not have to load up a truck and hook up a trailer and coordinate six schedules and learn this dance and practice all of this stuff. And it is just as rewarding. And I thought, do I want to leave magic? And the answer is, I can't. There's something else here. Someone here in Santa Fe, actually last night, after the 830 show that we performed at the Jean-Cocteau, walked up to me and he said, you're not just performing magic, you also have a point. And he said, thank you very much for bringing your point to Santa Fe. And what he personally took away from the show, he didn't really want to divulge. But that meant a lot to me because that means that it's not just the show that we're doing. The whole point of the magic that we perform and try to perform is connection. And I was so relieved that someone felt that connection because if you're not connecting with your audience, then you're wasting their time. And magic just provides this wonderful medium to use song and dance and theater and all of these things as well as infuse that with a little bit of wonder.

And how lucky are we? Yeah. I just can't quit it. It's like my broke back magic. I just can't quit it. Well, I was able to go to one of your shows and the last time you're here, I really love your work. Thank you so much. You had done a workshop that was for all ages of people, but these children that were there, their were eyes were the sparkliest eyes I've ever seen. And you empowered them. You taught us all some tricks. It was really wonderful. And I saw them race out into the world to learn more, to share this. And just to worship at the shrine of wonder and magic, just saying, wow, how does this work? And I'm of two minds. I want to know how it works and I kind of don't, I like that willing suspension of disbelief. So we've asked you, if you wouldn't mind, to do a trick to kind of set the tone for us. Oh, I would love to. So can you tell our audience what this is? Of course I can.

Thank you. So what I brought is one of the ghosts, who is one of my, I guess you could call her a frequent flyer. From the magic castle, she's someone who makes frequent appearances with me. The difference between what we call a quote-unquote real medium and what I do is I'm a theatrical say-ons medium, which means that my ghosts show up on time every time. So hopefully Alice will come and visit us today. Now, it is said that when you attempt to make a connection with a spirit from the beyond, you want to use something of theirs that they had in life and that they cherished and treat it with respect so the spirit knows you're safe. So what I have brought is this beautiful teacup. And for those of you who know China, it is limoush and haveland. And for those of you who don't, it's old and now expensive. And as Alice McKinley loved tea in life, I thought it might be nice to make her a cup and request her presence with us today. So we'll put two heaping spoonfuls of sugar into the teacup here. And the tea has been pre-steed, so we'll pour this in.

And now, as I ask them at the magic castle, please breathe in with me and out perfect as we attempt to contact Alice. Alice McKinley, I sense your presence strongly in the room today. If you are here with us this afternoon, please give us a physical sign. We come to you in like-minded and positive accord and are treating something you loved very much with respect. We've made you a cup of tea. Now, what appears it's gone cold. Actually, that gives me an idea. Alice McKinley, if you are here with us today, please make your tea steam. It appears that cold is just the way that Alice likes it. So we hope she enjoyed her tea.

And we thank you, Alice, thank you for coming to us today. And you are free to explore the beautiful art in the capital building as you are inclined. Yes. How do you choose what routines I saw that quite astonishing knife routine that you had done the show that I went to, you also did it for Penn and Teller. I did. And it's so dramatic. And you asked the audience to shout out what they're afraid of. Yes. One of them was spiders in your Spider-Man's ant in the- I did. I played Spider-Man's ant May in an animated series called Ultimate Spider-Man. And I also played Squirrel Girl. And she's a little superhero who fought alongside him and they went on burrito runs together during the cartoon. And so there's some peril. You dance on that edge between terror and wonder. So one of the things that people shout out of that were knives that they were afraid of.

And then you did this trick. It's a little hard to explain. But there is some danger involved, it's not throwing an apple on somebody's head. But there's one knife is retractable and will not kill you. The other ones have a big strong sharp knives that could kill you. And so everyone's just on the edge of their seat when you do that. How do you choose what are you drawn to in terms of the tricks that you use? It has to impress me first. And second, it has to bring me joy. Those are my two criteria. And if any trick passes both of those tests, then it's in the show. And how do we choose what is appropriate for which audience? First of all, we consider the venue and then we consider the people that are going to be there. And then we consider what's going to be the most fun. Yeah. And so we bring those things with us because like I said earlier, if you're not connecting it's a waste of everybody's time. So we thought, where is Santa Fe and it's rooted, we have incredibly artful people who are very spiritual, who are very intelligent. And so that means we can bring some really fun things that are going to connect on a deep level.

And as far as terror and wonder are concerned, isn't that where magic is? Yeah. You know, we're not omniscient. We don't know what all the mysteries of the world are. And that's where magic lies. It lets us wonder and it reminds us that we don't know everything. And isn't that exciting because how boring would it be to have all the money in the world? How boring would it be to have nothing new to learn today? I don't want to live in that world. I want to live in a place where I don't know anything. And every single moment I'm walking around going, well, what's that? Hey, what's that? Because that's so much more exciting. And if there's a mystery out there, I can't solve. That is sexy. Yeah. Bring it on. Well, at Propou, you're exploring other realms, talk to me about cognitive interviewing. Oh, I would love to. Yeah, because you are the only magician certified in what it's called, I-A-I. Yeah, I-A-I. It's the Institute of Analytic Interviewing. Right. And this was something that I learned about when I was working on the say-outs for the magic castle. And here's a little bit of history that you may or may not be interested in.

If you're not, please feel free to interrupt me. But I got that job. A lot of people say, oh, they must have wanted a female medium because so many of the mediums in the spiritualism era at its height were, they-so many of them were women. And I said, no, I actually got that job by having an idea. I came as- it came in as a consultant because Milton Larson, who co-created the show, and who co-created the magic castle, and also cultivated the say-outs show there, was looking for a consultant. And I had done a lot of creepy stuff, not because it's a brand I'm honing. It's just because that's what I like. I collect glass eyes and antique weird things. I just dig it. So they asked me to come in and do some consulting on this ghost show. And I said, it's very honoured mansion. Is that what you want? And they said, no, we'd like it super creepy. And I was like, yes, bring it on. Let's play. So we started talking. And I said, why is this all-Houdini focused? I see his stuff is here. I admire and respect the history. But why are we not talking about the ghosts who have actually walked these halls? Divernan. You know, some of the incredible magicians who spent their time and their lives here. And Milton Larson said, that sounds like an interesting idea for this room.

That's a show I want to see. You have a month. And I said, no, no, no, no, I did not come to take this show away from this medium that's been doing it for 30 years. He said, I'm not giving you Leo's job. I'm giving you a chance to do your own show in this room. But I need to see it first. You have a month. So I got the show by having an idea, not because of my gender. But going back to what you asked a moment ago, which was, oh my gosh, where were we? We started out with a sandwich. We started talking about cognitive interviewing. Yes, IAI stuff. And you trained along with Scotland Yard and CIA. Yes, thank you for getting me back on track. Yes, sure. Because the reason that I took that training is I wanted to be a better medium. I wanted to, because I am not a psychic and I don't pretend that I am. I can't find a parent's dead child's bones, but I wanted to get really good at doing it fake. So I was reading in psychology today and just happened upon this article about this truth wizard, JJ Newberry. And I went, oh, that's really interesting. What does that mean?

So I started to follow up and find out more. And I thought this would be really useful, because magicians use a method called cold reading, where you size someone up based on the choices that they've made today and the way they present themselves to the world. And I thought to be able to human lie detect in real time, boy, that could make me very scary. That also is what they call you, the human lie detector. Yes, yes. So tell us. Yes. Well, once I went and studied it, I realized sitting there with agents from the ATF, the FBI were there, Scotland Yard was there. This is where the agents go to study. And I spoke with Mr. Newberry and he said, you know, I can't let you in. This is for law enforcement and for insurance people to, you know, actuaries to figure out whether or not, whether or not this is truthful and appropriate when people are filing claims. So I came in and it was so exciting because he called me on the phone and he said, why do you even want to take this? And I said, well, I'm this magician and he goes, why do you think this would be useful for a magician?

And I said, I don't know. And he said, have you ever done anything like this? And I said, well, my dad is schizophrenic. He said, stop, you're in, you can do this. And I said, why would schizophrenia and dealing with a family member with schizophrenia qualify me for to be a human lie detector? He said, because you've been navigating human behavior all your life and not knowing. Oh my goodness. So do you want us on his story? Oh, yeah. He knew exactly. Do you want to know a little more? Do you want to, to, to sidetrack a minute and come back to where we are and talk a little bit about the process? I don't know. Whatever you want to talk about. We're speaking today with Misty Lee, my favorite magician. And I want to hear, I want us to learn, you know, tell us some of the tricks of the traits of being a human lie detector and, yeah, because I've seen you, you know, when you work a crowd and stuff, you know, you have to really size up the people and, and find inconsistencies and congruities. And so, yeah, just tell us a few little tricks of the traits. And I'll tell you a story about being with a psychic as well and, and what, you know, how she fared and how I fared if you're interested.

I am. But I'll talk a little bit about the process. So I started studying this human lie detection stuff because I wanted to be a better and creepier, fake sayons medium. We were talking about doing theatrical sayons and I'm not a psychic and don't even pretend to be. But I wanted to learn how to read people better. So I studied at this place called the Institute for Analytical Interviewing with JJ Newberry. And they taught us how to get what they call a baseline on people. It's easiest if you can sit and talk with them for at least 30 minutes because you find out what their general demeanor is and what their normal habits are and what you're looking for then are deviations. Oh, a sudden movement. Why did you shift? Are you anchored? Can I change your body language by sitting and mirroring it and then in a moment putting my hand to my face where you put your hand that I'm leading you? See, there are all these things where you learn how to connect. I, after studying with him for a while, I realized it wasn't necessarily going to be extremely helpful in the show, but little bits of it really were because he talked about really observing whom you're speaking with and the way that they present themselves because when we step out into the world, we've made a bunch of choices today.

And when you make those choices, they're deliberate even if they're subconscious. And so for example, I told you I would tell you a story about a real psychic. I wanted to know when I was studying to be a Saiyans medium, I'd do the ghost show at the Magic Castle in Hollywood. And I said, I want to be a better medium. What does a real Saiyans look like? And so I went to a place in Los Angeles where they do them. They were doing a Victorian glass Saiyans and I said, that sounds so sexy. What's that? Well, what they do is they turn a bowl over and use this glass bowl in the center of the table to, as a compass, sort of, and two psychics sit across from one another and two sitters. So it's north, south, east, and west. And they ask the questions of the bowl. Yes, there are no questions. And the bowl goes around fast for yes. It doesn't move for no. And I'm like, well, this is not what I expected. But while we were sitting there, the psychics were having a very hard time and I don't claim to judge, I do not claim to have the authority to say whether someone is psychic or not. Usually when I see psychic things happen, I can explain them with magic. But that doesn't mean it isn't out there.

And I would be ignorant to claim it isn't because I am not omniscient. I don't know. There are still mysteries that I haven't solved and I hope to encounter it someday. I'm wide open to it. I love the idea. And I know people who have encountered it. So that makes me very happy for them. But this night, the psychics were having a real hard time. And I was watching everybody in the room having come fresh off of this IAI training, right? So I'm sitting in the room with a very good friend of mine who's a life coach. And this woman sitting in front of me, they were taking turns asking questions of the bull and they were getting their answers. And I looked at the woman in front of me who had stepped forward to become one of the citters and asked the questions. And I looked into her bag and I see a bunch of ungraded papers and what smiley faces on them. And I'm like, okay, so she must be a teacher and I'm getting all of this information from her. And the psychic isn't really, she isn't hitting for every 15 guesses or whatever she is throwing out there. She's really not, she's not connecting with this person at all and she's just not working for her.

So she opens it up to the room. And she says, if anyone else has a message for this woman, and now I have a choice to make, because I see this woman leave her seat and she's in a sweater with pom-pom snow men on it. She's got holes in her white tennis shoes. She hasn't thought about herself in a long time, grass stains on her knees. She gives of herself to other people every single day. And so I see all of this because I've learned to observe her. I look in her bag and I know she's a teacher, so I know an awful lot about her. And the psychic says, is anyone getting anything? And I thought, hmm, and I raised my hand and I said, I see a number two pencil. And my friend Ruth the life coach goes, oh, are we doing this? I said, yeah, because this woman came there looking for something. And I said, and that she goes, what do you mean you see a number two pencil? And the woman that I had been observing said, I'm a teacher, I said, I know. And I said, and I also know that you have given of yourself for a very long time. And somewhere along the way, you forgot you were beautiful. You forgot that you mattered and you forgot you were important. And the work you're doing and the love you give is incredibly important. It's your universal job, but you matter.

And you need to self-care because if your cup is empty, you cannot give to others. And the woman just lost it. And the psychic said, I'll take it from here. And I said, can you? But the people in that room that night had paid $20 for love and light. It was an encouraging environment and I did not go there to debunk that psychic. I walked in a skeptic and I left a skeptic of that woman's abilities. Again, I'm not saying it's not out there in the universe because I don't have the authority to say that. But that woman was having a hard time doing her job, which was to make these people feel better about themselves. And I was equipped that evening to do it. I did not claim to be a psychic because we left the woman and said, oh my God, I said, I am not a psychic. I just looked at you. And I said, please take care of yourself because you're too important for us to lose. And it was a lovely evening. But shortly after that happened, my friend Ruth said, oh, are we doing this? Because artists with the spoon, I'm sensing that you're lazy. And she said, you can't get your work done because you just won't do it.

And it was very, it was much more positive than I'm reporting it. But Ruth is incredibly direct. And the psychic really was very offended and she walked us out. We were kind and we were nice. But we were firmly escorted to the door so she could take it from there. So the IAAI training is sometimes you see stuff you don't want to see. People are talking about people that they claim to like or I know people don't like me. And they're pretending that they do. I can sense it. Someone walked up to me and I said, how are you? And he said, it's so nice to see you. Oh, no, it isn't. He's shaking his head no. Yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, thank you. That's good to know. Because once you know that you're not going to waste their time. If he doesn't want to talk to me today, he doesn't have to. He's free to go talk to people he does, who's company he does enjoy. So there are little cues that we give off all the time. And once you're trained in him, you can turn it on and off. But my poor husband can't go have a burrito on my about it. Well, I was doing some research with this because I was really interested in the CIA and the spying. Yeah.

And in the 70s, they had worked with Yuri Geller. Oh, yeah. The CIA was trying to find out if he really could transmit the number of a card or an image or something. And he and the spoon bending, but he himself, Yuri, the psychic, the gifted person, was so excited when it did work, because it worked not often. And I don't know that I don't know anything about the CIA. I don't know what they've done with whatever information that I have. Well, that's the point. Yeah, of course. They don't have to kill me, of course. But the whole thing about misdirection and illusion, talk to me about your understanding of illusion. They want it for a different reason for propaganda, maybe truth serving. I don't know. Oh, they're developing a movie about the war magician. They used to consult magicians to misdirect so that they could combat an attack. They've used magicians for all kinds of incredible things behind the scenes that no one knows. So it's really.

I see an exciting stuff when it comes to misdirection and magic. And illusion is, it's around us all the time. So it's, when you're talking about stage illusion specifically, which is what we work with, I'm not working with the CIA or the FBI. And if I was, I couldn't tell you. But Disney Imagineering uses it to enhance your experience in the park, little things, and body language, things too. They want to develop so that, I'm sorry, I'm getting so excited, I'm stuttering, they're developing some of their moving characters to move so human that if they notice you, their eyes move first, and then their body follows very much the way that we do. And they're studying all of those things. So so much of illusion comes from our understanding of the world around us, really understanding why we perceive things the way we do. And then turning it on its ear just a little bit. Why do these colors make things look bigger? And if we put a black stripe down it, does it look impossible? Things like that. When you break it down to just such a, it's such an incredible science and there's so much to know. It's so exciting.

Well, where do you see all this going? I don't know, I'm just on this wonderful journey. And for you as a professional, I just wanted to say, I love the Mancher Castle. I've been there as a child, been there for many, many years. I want our audience to know, will you tell us, tell them what it is and how they can find it? Oh, there's nothing like it in the world. Well, there isn't. It's an incredible Victorian mansion built in 1908. It's at the corner of Franklin and Orange, right in the heart of Hollywood. And you go in there and it is a restaurant. It is a private club that is attended by magicians. You walk into this amazing place. You encounter a magical bookcase from the moment you step foot in the lobby. And you say, open test to me in the whole panel slides. Yes. And then you go. Yes. And once you're in, it is opulent and stunning. And there are magicians wandering around because it is truly the world headquarters of magic. The London has the magic circle and that is a wonderful club and I would never discredit it. But this is completely different. And there are magicians performing all over the building, all the different disciplines

of magic. You said you love close up. That's there. There's parlor size where people are performing out of a briefcase size magic. And then you go into the palace of mystery and they're sawing women in half and doing all the larger stage illusions like we were just talking about. So it's just there and there's nothing like it in the world and it's incredible. They bring the best acts from all around the world to come and entertain their guests and I am so grateful to them. Those of our audience who are not going to get to Los Angeles. Yes. The Jean-Cocte de Santa May in Santa Fe is bringing more magicians and I please hope you come back. Oh, I would love to. Your shows are just sublime. I'm just, everyone leaves. They're so high and happy and excited. Well, so do we. Yeah. That's why we keep coming back. Santa Fe is like a drug. Back in home to me. The people here are so kind and warm and wonderful and it's this town is unlike anywhere else. It's called the city different. But we have a minute and a half left. I want you to call out our love of magic, our need for magic and just leave our audience with something to think about from the human lie detector.

Who? How to find support and enjoy magic in everyday life. Because us, everybody asks what we're here for and we're here to connect. Open that heart. Open your eyes. When you study Native American symbols and a crow or a raven flies in front of you, find out what that means. Because we have stories and all of the magic from horoscopes to totem animals exists to teach us who we are and how to better connect with the great spirit and with each other. And it's right there in front of you. So please just embrace it and learn and dream and follow and read and just be. And the organs of perception, I really urge people to just take a moment and just really look at something. Yes. And you know, you're trained to find the things that are disharmonized, things that don't work. But to really see the world as we Blake says, that's the greatest gift to see the world in the grain of sand.

Indeed. We'll be back and do you do the national tours? We do sometimes. We're primarily in Los Angeles because we do a lot of TV work. So we're really excited about some of the things we have coming. I can't tell you any of it, of course, but we're primarily located in Los Angeles, but we do love Santa Fe. So we will be back. We talked to the John Cacto about doing some podcasts. My husband, Paul Dini, who created early Quinn, would love to come back. So we can't stay away from this town, are you kidding? Oh, good. Well, when you come back, I will see your show and I will invite you back here. Thank you for giving tea to Alice. Yes. Thank you, Alice, for coming with us tonight. And thank you for sharing your love of magic and your love of life with us. Thank you for sharing yourself with me in Santa Fe. Our guest is Misty Lee, magician extraordinaire. And I would like to thank you our audience. I'm Lorraine Mills. This is a report from Santa Fe. We'll see you next week. Most archival programs of report from Santa Fe are available at the website, report from Santa Fe dot com.

If you have questions or comments, please email info at report from Santa Fe dot com. Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by Grant Strong, the members of the National Education Association of New Mexico, an organization of professionals who believe that investing in public education is an investment in our state's economic future. And by Grant from the Healey Foundation, Tau's New Mexico.