Conversations; 140; Jack Spencer/ Ellen Douglas

But. You. Know. And I'm Jean Edwards and I need TV's conversations tonight the images of Jack Spencer Jack was born in cars yes go and spent much of his life in the south. These black and white images capture the land and its people in ways you won't often see. And I hope you will appreciate I know that Ellen Douglas appreciates Jack Spencer's images so much so that she's written the introduction to this collection. And here is how she begins. She writes Jack Spencer's photographs the faces the stances the stage presences invite you to first think about stories and indeed Spencer has described his work is akin to short stories. It was a pleasure to welcome Ellen Douglas and Jack Spencer to our program. Good to be here. Joe Joe Well I'm Joe Average Joe well of what it what a marvelous collection missives. Thank you. And and and

I couldn't agree more. As I read through the introductory work that you did that each one of those images inspires because I think like however it could take off from the end could be all it is yeah. How did you come to this. I just I really began to think about the pictures. Well in the first place they'll issue press call me and ask me if I would like to do an introduction to this book of photographs but I had not seen any of Jack's photographs at that time. So you said you they said send me photographs and they sent on that I said yes and they loved to tell me about that moment when you opened that awful open there they were the I was just I was just laid out I was knocked over by that and I thought they were so wonderful. So the faces are so grand and then something so mysterious about many of them like like Gladys and her mother with a sheet of plastic in front of. Their mysterious you. You could start thinking about a story so off you

went. Right. And you rode away. And you shipped it in and now it's part of this wonder no wonder why and this has been a much longer journey for you. Oh yeah tell me a little bit about how how many years. Well you're here this actually has been about 10 years. Whenever our first started as I moved back from out west on and I'd started seein the Mississippi in the south and in a different way in a more lyrical poetic way I've seen a lot of photographs everywhere so I started on it and just kind of belt a belt on it for a few years and you have to go away to do that. You know I think sometimes you do have to go away sometimes you have to go away in order to see things clearly. And when you come back you take a different perspective. Whatever your level around something all the time sometimes it's becomes common license. You take it for granted and whenever you go away and you come back you see it completely

differently. I want to talk about some of these particular images and let's begin with the one that you were talking about. This is Gladys and her mother behind the clothesline and wow. I was puzzled by that. What was that sheet that strangely translucent. Soup on the clothesline. Good thing you're so mysteriously back and as you spent time with this image you see those whose feet. Yeah yeah and when the kind of detritus in the background and various jobs with their mysterious cloudy you just state you know that in fact I was photographing Gladys out in the clothes line she was hanging up sheets out there and her mother was out there too and so I saw Gladys walk behind that plastic sheet that they had hanging on the line and or just asked her mother to come over there. And

I made the photograph. Where. Let's say South Carolina or North Carolina I'm sorry. In North Carolina right. Most of these images are in Mississippi Mississippi Louisiana or that are mostly woods and there but in the last few years I started traveling out all of this in one of the things. Caroline Wright the Carolinas I did a trip there about a four or five week trip to last summer. And photographed in Georgia South Carolina North Carolina Virginia and how can you do it you just go out and get lost. Well yes basically you said it and got to get up in the morning then say I'm going to go have some myself go get lost Jack and I haven't lost that that's basically dead and I look forward to get lost. True you find though that there are people to tell me about the people that you run into Tell me about Gladys and her mother and do they welcome you. Sometimes most of the time people are very open to being photographed sometimes they just

don't want to be and that's you have to know that. But for the most part people like to have their pictures taken I think their picture of me and sometimes sometimes they don't but in that case I just was driving past there and I saw our out hanging up because I thought it was a very lyrical photograph or a shot or such a question and I was just stop and ask them and they were very open to very nice people. We had some last night a few photographs and I was gone and this is Mr. says Mr. bin. And this to begin with Alan Hoover boom bam Vista being. Wonderful powerful. What do you think of when you see him. Well I well I've thought particularly about his sons in the background. They kind of faded back and he knew who he is so strong when you're not sure what. And again this is like a story you're not sure what his relationship with his sons is like it's very suggestive. You think about it were the ones that

believe that you were not overbearing one or. He looks stern but then I have to look at him. Oh wow. There's some very benevolent about it or the feeling you'd like to take these into a class somewhere and say you write a story about this. Tell me about this man. He is all of those things is a very powerful man but he's also has a wonderful sense of humor. And as sons of the family all of us are all close together there and come out of those you know. And he was just very I just kind of saw I was a very heroic figure along with his sons and you know I wanted to photograph them together you know although in the four and one plane but. He was kind of a dominant figure. Male But is that in general he's not Cajun. No you know I'm not sure where. That news room. You have an image in the book of a place called

Merritt creek. The tough part here not far from here is down by Mendenhall and there's a swimming hole down there and in the creek and it kind of a whole collection of things that happened there I mean the whole time I was down there pretty close to there and and I just came across the swimming hole down there which I was. Iceland some parts has white water on it. But you know I thought it was very unusual for Mississippi. There's so much depth and I just feel like you can go right on down the creek. Tell me about the time of the year. Well that was in the fall early early fall so very appropriate to do that and that's why it looked so comfortable at this time with a few of the leaves you know. Can you talk a little about your technique. Because I know that there are photographers out there who are watching who are seeing what kind of a camera is it what kind of film is it. Are they slides or are they are they just duels are they how do you get this look. Well you know it's almost

like a CPA. Yeah. Well as far as the equipment is concerned I don't I don't really pay that much attention to equipment and I don't really pay that much attention to exposure I know how to get exposure and that but I'm looking for the information to go on the film. And I'm not really even that picky about what film ideas I just want to make sure that they the information is on the film and then I know that whenever I get in the darkroom I can bring it out or I can find it. So and the darkroom is where I do or where I have all of my fun you know. I just wanted to get the information there get the circumstance as quickly as possible. And then whenever I get a darkroom then I start expressing that. So how many versions of Merrick Creek might there have been before you finally got the one that we're seeing. That one was actually fairly simple. That's a pretty straightforward photograph a lot of them a Manipulate and quite a bit. There's quite a bit although sometimes it takes me two or three four days sometimes to figure out a print. The way that I want to do it but I do things with acetate overlays and airbrushing for my dodging and burning process which is denying the

light to hit the paper which will if it hits the paper it's going to be dark. If it's protected from the paper it's going to be light and so I manipulate the light on the print paper. Sort of a bunch of different techniques that I use in the darkroom but I mostly just want to play you know just to get in there and just kind of doodle around and explore a little bit. Do you always think that there's only one of your networks. Sometimes there's several variations. Well there is. Well there's one of the version that I come from that and that progress. When I say well you don't know the version. We begin the process to no I don't think that the negative it's an uncovering process that somewhere in there that negative is got stuff and it wants to and I just try to bring that out and it expresses something I don't know where it comes from or what it what it means or anything but I get to a place where I'm very comfortable with the print and I leave it alone.

Sounds kind of mystical. I thought it is kind of almost sounds like writing a book. I think it's pretty much all comes from the same place but I just pretty much try to allow it to do to dictate to me what where I want to let it go where it wants to go. Let's look at another one of these images. This is patriot Dawn fire this is Dawn fire which says Louisiana to me am I right. No that's what. But our parks they're close right. That's up by Clark. I was just happen to be driving and I've kind of drawn to elemental things. Water Fire smoke those kinds of things are you drawn to a particular time of the day to do your work. No not really because you know of course every photographer allows what's called Golden Hour you know at the end of the day when my son is you know doing its thing. You know it's some brilliant contrast to the light at

that time. But I'm not I'm not picky about it when I see the story. I thought a long time ago about whether this was a threatening figure behind it all whether it was a genial figure behind the five. What did you finally decide I didn't like the decision but I don't I don't think of it I was indecision and never did. Never did never would. Patriot number one and number two tell me the bit about well who actually took my favorite photographs and I said whatever I'd made those photographs after they were done I thought that this is the best that I could ever do. You know and I just thought that there were wonderful images and. There are so many different things going on as far as composition and. And and poetic content and also the textures and tonalities and they're just kind of has it

everything. And I sent him out to galleries and they are just kind of what they don't want anything to do with it really. And I thought they were just wonderful in that and I don't think I've ever sold a single single image of them. And I actually would have liked to have had one of them on the cover of the book but everybody seems to be frightened of these photographs. But they are photographs of my friend Cooter. Mr. Well Brad she lives up in Kuala by Carrollton and I've been photographing him for four or five years now and we've become very good friends and I've made hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of photographs of him but these are two of my favorites and they frighten you. No no I know you're fine. And some people who just apparently they're just not the kind of pieces of people on their walls or something. Maybe the gallery said it all along this is a piece which I would think a lot of people would like to have on their walls this is an amorous window. Which just is. Romantic and

interesting and is going to come up here and there but that's a very good they're dated All right. Yeah that's a interesting compositional piece. And it also has a lot of things to say and where was it. That's up in Crenshaw Mississippi and it's an abandoned beauty shop window and it's an old poster that was in there that was that it was rotting and falling down but there are so many symbolic. Texture of tonal qualities to it that it's it really goes in the long ones that window Crimea and I really really do like an image or one of my favorites. And it seems like it just has a lot of a lot of things going on. You know do you look for abandoned places I know that burning items in his photography looks a lot for empty spaces and abandoned places and juke joints and you know like you know I could say that I really look for anything.

I don't really set my mind to go out and look at any one particular direction in fact I did pretty much just the opposite I try to clear my mind as much as possible and allow things to present themselves to me as much as possible. You know if you if you go out in the morning and you wake up and you say I'm going to photograph a field burning You're not going to find a field mine you know it's are you going to be disappointed you're going to be doing a lot of driving around and there's no field burning out there. But if you're happen to be driving down the road and there was a field burning then you've been given a great gift and it's presented itself to you or a juke joint with the wonderful visions revealing exactly you know so if you have a clear mind and they say to present themselves to you you're ready for that point. That advice that you give to writers. Sounds like a good you know good advice to and I found the same thing was true in my work that the thing you're most familiar with

is not likely to be what moves you a story or a new name. It's when you come to something that you don't know. It's you can you can work with it man. Can you make any money doing this. Or you could make a living if you feel like you know I don't think that you can really count on Mike and you know it well you know there's some there are wealthy photographer there are there but there's not very many that do it in this style of work. I'm just I'm just trying to get to the place where I understand the courage that it takes you to get up every morning and go out and look for whatever it is you got you got to pay the bills somehow Sure well you know a struggle for years you know and it was very tough there for a long time because photography is not a it's not an easy thing to do it's a very expensive process and it's inhibits a lot of people in that they run from it because it is so costly to do. And. I've

never been a rich man at all. In fact you know the old stories about you know coming down to Mississippi to paint signs furred for Buddy Jones Ford up in Greenville which was always roll generous with me helping out a lot and I would. It would pay for my trip down here but I would get back to Nashville and I would have to go upon my camera to buy paper to print the stuff that I just shot a few photographs in and get my camera out Go go through the same cycle again. So it's been a struggle but it's not something that I've sat around a pint about it because I love it so much. You just keep going. JEFF So what does it mean though in terms of a career to have a book like this. Well you know I was I'm doing major and very well you know the last couple of years and you know I've been shot in major galleries and museums and so on. These days I'm done fairly well but you know it's it's a matter of faith I suppose. I don't want to run out of time before we get to some more of those images this is called Reverend stilt Riis baptismal pool. Robert stuck to expect his own pool and it's

just magnificent. It makes me think so much of the of the primitive art that you see so much of in this part of the Roman stocks as life was pretty much the life of folk art and he's painted those signs and religious. Sayings all over the dial to Clarksdale. He lives in Marks Mississippi I think. Just moved on to Jonestown. But that was where he did his baptizing in that concrete cool air. Were you there for one of the Baptists. Never saw baptism. Let me ask you about your friend Cooter. This is an image right. This is one of my favorites this is a cougar in the corner with or whether I think what a perfect title What a perfect image. Isn't it wonderful to see the car back behind coup to occur like like the belle of the home one of its recruits. How how did you meet him.

Well I was driving around up there and there in the hills there around Carrollton never run Kwara and it's a real old dirt road there that's. And there is one photograph in the book that's called cooed Ridge Road but it's on that road and so a lot of narrow road that. And I looked over to the right and he was sitting out there and he paints a lot like Robin started painted some little edge of slogans and stuff on his house and and it just kind of. Get real interested in it right away and so I went up and met him and talked and we became very good friends and he played that horn now in fact. Who is it who is an active participant in this whole process. We've had a ball over the years Mike and these photographs and he's pretty much involved in the whole thing and he saw that horn one day ended in a junk store and he said I but Jack would make a good picture of me with this and I showed up one day and they had it there. So I told him they were going to have to get dressed up and we would make a

formal portrait with the horns. So we went right around as we usually do in a cornfield that look look like the perfect spot so we made the portrait. And the joke did it with it. Oh yeah. Just marvel at another character whom we know from lots of people die all over the country. Everybody knows this man may have been to his place. What a wonderful picture of the Rev. Dennis prayer. You know what yes I know you're talking about I've never ever been saying I've been there. It's a revelation. Really. How did you meet him. Someone told me about his place over there and tell it it might be an interesting thing for me to take a look at and they were they were like they were mostly talking about the building near where it was and I went over there and right away you mean. If you you made him you know right away you're in love with him because you're such a wonderful person and

such an interesting person. And so we just kind of connected and made a few images went back a couple other times. So are the images of the building more interesting or the images of him I think you know I think of him you know I'm a I was I think interest in the building so I was but and I made a few new exposures of the building but also I was interested in him. What's he say to you when you think he's a bust Lee testifying. Yeah. He's witnessing is there's a very religious man. There's an image in the book called man sleeping in the pool. And you started to write a story about it. When I was thinking about the images that were perhaps revealing about the honest photographer that seemed to me to be very appropriate he might be bringing this whole book. This might be an image of their own the photographer dreaming his book.

Any truth to that. Well I thought it was wonderful that she said that but I know it was just one of those circumstances that presented itself and was. Very very hot day and so on and there was there was a pool might have the water that sprays up over the water the pool doesn't fill up. But it was Franco was on this boat was out there. Cohen offered it just like a look like a very dreamlike evidence to me. This is another one of the bow of a boy swinging out over the poo. You must be psychic because that's the one that said what can I pick that I thought did this image to me. I have to know about the moment that you caught it and how long it took you to get there. That's it that's it Mark's right is that the way that we do it that's creating a better America. Most of our mental hologram. I want to sway on that rope. Yeah one frame was all it was. I mean a.

Selma shot that I took around there and it was just up there swinging off the rope and bam there it was. Often you think of photographers waiting and waiting and waiting for that one chance that one opportunity not me not me if it doesn't present itself you move on. There it was in there it happened did you happen to do that you go you know I don't know. No thanks to do just that a very brief conversation with him. When you look at that is as a writer the whole image the whole story just kind of opens itself up in front of us. I mean can you Ted the friends and family watching him on the back. Yes that's great. He's so proud of him saying yeah I would be with you. Absolutely would that be fun. Let's go to one more image of a cooter and this is his Rood that you've talked about before

you planned that. Did not didn't I were out walking around he had a gun in your show move the shotgun in or out in the road and you started walking up the road there and we got there. Was almost a cathedral like it. That's a lot of meaning for me. It was a wonderful wonderful image. Tell me where are you going now. Well what happens with you now. Are you out roaming around and taking pictures. Not lately. Too busy in the darkroom. I have a lot of exhibits going on around the country right now I have a total of mine I think by the time all of this is over and galleries all over the United States. And so I'm busy printing for those I'm running for for the print sales and that kind of stuff and I don't have much time anymore to go out. Sure kind of bothers.

You time to go look for those stories. You know I kind of best of those when I would kind of wander around the delta footloose and fancy free and didn't have to be anywhere and have to do a TV interview. I've got an eye for you that I will come again. I'm sure I will I hope that it will. What are you doing with yourself these days. Well I'm thinking about a nonfiction book that I'm barely beginning to get started on which maybe maybe a university press will be interested and I crave book a book about writing. So that's not what I'm doing. And you're living here live in Jackson in Jackson. Now I have a son and daughter in law and grand out of making friends so we're spreading out every day I'm going out getting to know people well taken back and having. But but I think that you must cherish this experience with as indeed I do I think I was very lucky to get to do that it was a great pleasure.

0 0 0 I think it's you know it's a great poem. It really is. So we're so now back out on the road for you. Yes go to Baton Rouge tomorrow than there was from San Francisco and Seattle. I'm asked I'm going back to New York and I'm in Los Angeles and plan on then I'm done and home now is Nashville. Think like you know your mother you know the conclusion of this collection. Jack Spencer writes To all those card souls who over the years have wild made if you can your windows and with your tails I thank you for your wonderful gifts. Jack Spencer and up with the thing. We thank you thank you for the play. By you both. Well.

Well well.